Feast for Odin | Rahdo's Final Thoughts

[@benjamincarter6095]

For me, this was the best game of last year. The weapons issue is a non-issue, because you should be hedging your bets by going for multiple avenues to earn points. If you get lots of harpoons, buy the cheap boat and go whaling. if you draw swords early, invest in a blue boat, then draw no more you can still get black cubes and get forge items and finally immigrate. There is no such thing as a perfect weapon. I hope you play this more and move past your hangup on the weapons cards, as they are simply one direction you can be pointed in, just like the occupation cards, and sometimes it makes more sense to ignore them. Also, I have won multiple games in which I only used weapons once. I still haven't won a game where I heavily focused on breeding animals. Regardless, every game has been loads of fun to play.

[@harrybosch4595]

Haven’t played enough to judge this but the moment Rahdo brought this up I thought ‘this is just Uwe forcing us to have a broad strategy’. If you compare this to Agricola in that game the scoring system forces you to diversify. In this game it’s integrated in the card draw. It’s more elegant because the game nudges you to diversify and at the same time nerfs single strategy runaway scores.

[@Arjay82]

I know this is an old comment, but for anyone seeing it and curious, the expansion fixes and balances the animal husbandry strategy.

[@aarondovauo1471]

Really enjoying these final thoughts, the enthusiasm for and appreciation of these designers and their games is very engaging. I also appreciate that you express why, for you personally, these details delight or exasperate. I feel like I am informed enough to make a reasonable assessment and potential purchase. Keep up the good work!

[@sirrichiofawesome9617]

Thank you for adding the goofs to close captions. Being able to see them on mobile devices is a big plus.

[@JamieMaltmanTube]

Like a few people here are mentioning, the random draws are all little nudges. None are very significant in the overall scheme of things. You can have your overall plan, but if a certain weapon keeps piling up, it becomes a significant nudge (and changes the odds of success) to entice you to do a certain action. I like to think of them in those terms too - they're the world lining up to make a particular thing more fruitful at that time. Occupations might draw your eye to a particular action or range of actions you'd been neglecting, and bring on some really cool ideas. I just love the journey. All these random elements combine to make a tremendously compelling solo experience, and they really blend into the background with more plays at 2P or more. My wife and I played it 7 times in the first weekend we got it, and it's been the game I enjoyed the most (40+ plays now) from last year.

[@briarrose7016]

I'm sad it didn't make it into your top 10! For me, this isn't just in my top 10, I think it's the #1 game of all time. I just think it's so replayable and challenging and incorporates different elements of other great games. Definitely Uwe's best for me.

[@rahdo]

it is fantastic

[@jareduxr]

I like your variant suggestions. True the designer didn't include and playtest them but we have a great community of gamers at our disposal for testing. I feel like they did a great job of explaining the theme if you read the Almanac that is included. So much great info in there. As for the feast I believe they use something along the lines of "less fulfilling " . So it's more of a morale thing then a lack of calories.

[@Straddllw]

Glad you liked it. I found that having never used any weapons throughout the whole game doesn't make a difference, you can go for a different strategy and still win. Same with occupations.

[@rahdo]

yup, like i said in the video, i'm sure it's all functionally balanced... i'm complaining more about the feeling it engenders, which is one i don't particularly care for

[@Straddllw]

Yea I agree, it doesn't happen that often though. Most of the time you get to agonize over whether you want to utilize the hunting/whaling because you have the weapons or do something else.

[@RuNacken]

Finally got this to the table with 3 people, with the long version. I can definitely see what you mean. It was not an issue for us this time though. Thanks again Rahdo, great play-through - it helped me a lot!

[@galileo3166]

This is my favourite game of all time, lovely videos as always.

[@retvolki]

9:00 that's why there's one thing called "house rules". Add what you think is missing and enjoy a more pleasant experience. 3 random weapons = 1 silver sounds like a fair trade! Or even take 2 or 3 and choose what suits you the best.

[@retvolki]

I understand you're not a huge fan of "house rules" but well, you're complaining about something and I'm trying to help you to fix it =)

[@rahdo]

i'm afraid the only person who can fix it for me is uwe rosenberg! :)

[@JamieMaltmanTube]

I'm just glad you enjoyed it. Try the long game too - you might find the feeding easier, but what you can do on that final turn is very very satisfying.

[@christiancandelaria954]

Can't agree with you on the weapons. The reason is because there is an action to draw 4 weapon cards plus upgrade tiles. There are a few ocupation cards that can give u weapons as well. I've played this game so many times and have played with people that focus on having lots of weapons. They typically take the draw weapons action. Fun review though, hope you keep uploading more runthroughs and reviews. I've gotten a few games thanks to your reviews.

[@Heraclatian]

This game is phenomenal. Im 50 50 ameritrash and euro. This is a literal feast of a euro game. Sooo many components, so many options, very difficult. Leaves me craving it when im dome.

[@windyhillbomber]

Luck of the draw is an often scorned mechanic...perhaps unfairly scorned. For me, in a game like this with so many different game arcs, it makes perfect sense to occasionally have the "gods ruin your day".

[@evantozer]

David Thurling interesting thought, for a game that takes place over several years (or several decades) that sometimes, life just sucks. Ha.

[@littleratblue]

My guess would be that the mitigating factor is that there are multiple random systems. You might get unlucky with one of the subsystems of the game, but getting unlucky with all three is going to be pretty unlikely. So you'll get unlucky with the weapon pull and the other player will get unlucky with combat and you'll both do reasonable with professions, for example. Which would mean that, at the end of it, you'll both end up having even scores (if you played equally well), and so the game would be properly balanced. But, it also means that each player is going to feel shafted by at least one part of the game each time, since it is likely that you'll get boned by at least one of them. Adding mitigating factors to the game probably wouldn't break it, scoring wise, but it is possible that it would make the players perform too well, so that you start running out of space or tokens, or it could simply make the game too sandboxy by being too easy. A mitigation that would probably work (for 2 player play), without risking either of those outcomes, would be to pull three cards from the occupation/weapons deck and allow your opponent to veto one, and then you get a choice from the other two. That should enforce that you're getting "average" results, not overpowered ones that make it too easy or risk breaking the game's economy. Thematically, we could say that the random weapon draw is symbolizing the impact of available resources. Depending on what bits and pieces of materials happen to be lying around, you can only build a certain type of weapon that year (more wood less twine, spear; less wood more twine, net; etc.) In the revised version, you and your opponent are building weapons from a shared pool of materials, so you've got a bit more selection, but it's a compromise what you're going to get. Ditto with the occupations. There are only so many trainers available, so the two of you have to compromise on how to divide their time, which limits what occupations can be trained. (This is, should anyone feel like house ruling despite the theory that playtesting will solve everything.)

[@bradleyshelton9884]

Isn't there an action to draw more weapons? I don't see this as an issue.

[@Valcurdra]

Great review. You correctly identified the problem of randomness in this game with the occupations, everyone I played with had the same problem. I really like your house rules I would probably use them if I play again. You did unusually focus on the negative a lot, really its a minor problem, despite the bad randomness in this game It is SUPER FUN and interesting. I enjoyed it more than any other new euro I played in years. For me this replaced caverna entirely, although I agree that the different tougher flavor of Agricola is still a better but more challenging game.

[@malarki6645]

I love this game but completely agree on the weapons and occupation comments.... I am thinking of house ruling it so that there is 4 face up to to choose from etc in both scenarios.. With that said regardless this is an amazing game.. And in my opinion it's one of the best constructed rulebooks I have ever read. It's the first big game I buy and when I read the rulebook I understood it immediately where many other games i have to go watch videos to understand what the heck this or that means so I'm really impressed with the attention to detail they put in this game.

[@Arjay82]

In a game like this, the dice make perfect sense thematically. If you're going whale hunting in real life, you're not making a "meaningful decision" to catch a whale. There is a chance you won't. Or a chance you'll need to be prepared with additional tools(wood in this case) to help bring it down. People too often are stuck in the "dice = bad" mentality.

[@tomobrien1068]

Most of the occupation cards give you points so if it's not useful at least you get something out of it. I personally like the random draw. It's a challenge trying to incorporate less desirable occupations into your overall strategy.

[@drjoshearl]

I really want to be friends with this dude

[@EclecticCamel]

This review was a real roller coaster.

[@luiscarlosqg]

This is a great review. I played a feast for Odin for the first time today and agreed almost completely with your comments. The game is EXCELLENT, but the luck of the draw is really annoying some times. Regarding your proposed variants, the open occupations option seems very clever, I want to try it. There could also be some kind of drafting, like in Agricola, but then players would have to start the game with more cards in hand (which makes sense in a game with so many cards... I guess Uwe didn't want it to be so agricola like). The "draw 3 keep one weapon" is quite thematic, imagine you are a young Viking and your father/leader offers you 3 weapons and you have to choose one. The "sell 3 weapons for 1 coin" is antithematic, you are supposed to use your weapons (or at least to keep them) not to sell them cheap. I kind of understand what you say about play testing, but some game are actually improved when played with variants, and it seems to be the case with this game.

[@rahdo]

with the expansion that came out last year, they pretty handily addressed the random issue: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oWKbd5Vuist1sKs :)

[@draheim90]

It is funny you mentioned the weapon luck. I just played this for the first time and my early cards were raiding-oriented, so I went into longships and raiding. Didn’t see a single sword all game and ended the game with ten or so unused weapons. Still loved the game, but that bit was frustrating.

[@rahdo]

i really liked the solution they came up with in the norwegians expansion: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oWKbd5Vuist1sKs

[@Oakman85]

I would have loved if the backs of all placeable resources had buildings and other town features on them (like wells etc) because i know that is where a lot of my thematic disconnect stems from. I would gladly add the slight fiddlyness of not being able to flip some tiles. So that at the end of the game i have built a society instead of a clothing warehouse.

[@rahdo]

wow, that's a brilliant idea!

[@Oakman85]

rahdo thanks :). I feel it would greatly increase the end game satisfaction. I'm actually kinda baffled it wasn't implemented.

[@jareduxr]

Oakman85 The stuff actually represents your treasure hoard which was pretty significant to many Vikings. Besides prizing them for their shiny beauty, they also demonstrated your rank and prowess in society. I think the almanac discusses this but I may be confusing that with the National Geographic Viking magazine that happened to show up the same week I received my copy.

[@Oakman85]

JW G. Thanks for the info! I'm sure it has a historic basis, although in that case i would have preferred the board to be a treasure room or something similar. The notion of putting item tiles to cover land seems as an unnecessary abstraction, and diminishes my enjoyment since at the end of the game all i see is basically a landfill full of stuff. Why not simply have the buildings be the graphical representation of your success and hoard. For example I have no problem with filling the current buildings with items, that seems much more appropriate. Plus since the tokens would have 2 sides they would work equally well in both situations.

[@jareduxr]

Oakman85 I just don't think it's a thematic fit here. Works great in Amerigo, but Vikings really prized their treasures. Some may have been traded for more wealth and buildings but mostly a Viking's bling was his measure and there was a real regal rivalry among members of society. If you Google Viking treasure hoard you get some pretty amazing finds of actual sites they unearthed. To me the treasure signifies my hoard I've collected over my lifetime career, that I will retire with (with or without distinction), and eventually be buried with (wether to be remembered or take it with me to my next journey). In my opinion, everyone should read the almanac included. Explains everything added to the game.

[@masterbridgemaster1]

@ 13:07: Cottage Garden!!!

[@princeneumator]

"Peters our O'toole" haha

[@aweso]

Interesting thoughts. The weapons don't bother me so much since they seem to just incentivize actions I otherwise might not do, but you really don't need to be particularly invested to do any of the dice rolling actions. The occupations on the other hand I completely agree with you. They should have been so cool, but they mostly fell flat for me as I felt like some were just better than others. There are some that I'd basically always play and others that I'd basically never play (which is already a problem). Granted most fall somewhere in between, but the problem there is that then they're pretty situational and you're back into the case where one person can get a bunch of cards that go perfectly together at the exact right times like you were saying. I think I want to try something like 'draw two keep one' as I don't see how this could possibly unbalance things. And in general I'm more willing to try house rules than you seem to be (I guess this is like someone saying that they're less conflict averse than you). And I really don't understand why you seem to think that the full game is more easygoing. It's the same exact game, just one round longer. Sure you do get more food, but in all of my plays I've never seen anyone have to take a penalty for not feeding. Really the extra harvest just means you have more goods to eventually upgrade (I mean, except under extreme circumstances eating a bowl of pears seems pretty terrible). But whatever, if you see it that way and that makes you like the game more then that's great. I just don't see it at all. Though, I wonder if really what you're responding to isn't feeding difficulty but rather a feeling of success? In Caverna you're basically guaranteed to have at least a pretty good farm, whereas in Agricola you can very easily have a pretty bad farm. And certainly in that last round of Odin you can do a lot of filling in, so playing only six means your boards will be a good amount more sparse. Is it possible this is what you're getting at when you talk about struggling? And if so, was this obvious to everyone else and I'm just dense? But yeah, I like this game quite a bit. I think it might currently be my second favorite game of 2016, though I still haven't played a handful of the bigger releases (Colonists, Oracle of Delphi, Lorenzo, Solarius Mission, Great Western Trail, and Ulm all seem to have a shot at beating Odin, though I have some hesitation about some of them).

[@rahdo]

"Is it possible this is what you're getting at when you talk about struggling?" Yes, in the shorter game, a higher percentage of your time is spent subsisting, so you have to work harder to excel to the same level...

[@aweso]

Ok, cool. So it's psychological. I don't know why it took me this long to figure this out, but that's very helpful. Thanks.

[@VoresD]

Darn, as someone who just got back into boardsgames and got caverna for a easy in to worker placement games thought that Agricola would be nice to have a bit more randomness and more teeth into it when that is wanted. Then found out Fields of Arle for more casual build ups with rather complex but more relaxed gameplay (and does not need that many players either) and now this monster jumps into the fray. My wallet T_T

[@szajko4360]

Great final thoughts, thanks

[@windyhillbomber]

Your solutions for the weapon and occupation cards make perfect sense. Does it matter that its a house rule if it makes the game more enjoyable....you'll soon learn if it wrecks the game

[@Nain1982]

hey rahdo, so if it this doesn't enter your top 10...does any new one go in there? I think you mentioned First Class could make the cut but dunno if any other would also take down any of the ones in previous list.

[@rahdo]

first class was in the top10 IIRC. right now, the one game that's pushing its way in is roll player :)

[@traviswood2853]

I think you are being super super hard on the card draw.

[@rahdo]

i don't disagree

[@jace76ful]

Rahdo you are a fireball lol. I love your videos though hehe.

[@myoman1977]

the negative aspects of the weapon cards that you described , is literally the game Lost Cities. and that is why it is my least favorite game of all time

[@bantozai]

I agreed with you on the Card draw randomness that can ruin the pleasure of the game...

[@jhowd78]

It would be nice if I could find this game for less than $100 or in stock at all

[@AndyP998]

Rahdo you should have a smoke before doing video to get you relaxed and not like fires up in your a... Anyway good job

[@forbiddenforest5327]

ha ha - yeah, I can handle about 1 vid a month from the excellent rahdo before I'm exhausted listening! - there's too much electricity in his pants, man.

[@kotieerwee2593]

His enthusiasm I think is one of the reasons why a lot of people keep coming back to his channel.

[@BARACKD127]

Why doesn't Jen do videos with you ? We want to see yoy together haha :)

[@rahdo]

jen.rahdo.com

[@ryusorata]

I dont assume any game has been playtested thousands of times. No game has been playtested thousands of times.

[@lordsplodge]

I struggle to understand why Richard and Jen like Odin but not Arle? Arle is the much, much tighter game, and they rate Agricola very highly and that's a tight game. I find A Feast for Odin a little too open (and thus too relaxing) and the occupation cards aren't really a push in any direction. They're nothing like the Agricola ones. Don't get me wrong, Odin is a good game that I have very little issues with. But Fields of Arle it is not. 😊

[@Platonick66]

I have the trepidatious pleasure of teaching this to Paul Grogan and Richard Breese which was uber scary but I survived! I think that your comments about suggested house rules to occupations and weapons is fair; with occupations we play draw two choose one and maybe that is also a way forward with the weapons. I absolutely love this game but I feel that traps is the worst weapon to draw as there is only one space you can use them. But... I think that if you haven't actually played the full game. You are really missing a trick. Just saying.

[@rahdo]

that is true, i'm sure the full game is awesome as well. but shorter is always better for us, since my circumstances rarely allows me to revisit a game no matter how much i like it, after i've done the runthrough video...

[@ronhatch9175]

Yeah, the puzzle of the board is a cool mechanism and something I'd both enjoy and be really good at... but you do realize that any and all thematic justifications for it are simply excuses for putting a cool mechanism in the game, right? I mean, sure I'd MUCH rather have the pasted-on theme be about Vikings than growing crops or making a quilt, but it's still just as much a pasted-on theme as any of his other games.

[@rahdo]

it makes thematic sense to me, but then i say the same thing about the mancala in trajan :)

[@ronhatch9175]

Ha! Yeah, I've definitely noticed several times that you're a lot more generous than I am in that regard. I suspect it's in part because you focus more on Euro-style games than I do, so you're more accustomed to a weakly connected theme in the first place... so even a little effort in that regard is good enough for you. But what do I know, anyway? It's all just a wild guess.

[@ShaneandStuff]

Kind of surprised about your conclusion on the weapon cards. Everyone draws the same amount and given that you only draw one per round I'm not sure why you would build an engine that would be that dependent upon drawing the "perfect" weapon. If you made the changes you mention you're basically changing something to just make it easier to get exactly what you want. Doesn't seem to fit or make sense in the greater context of this massive game. Plus there's the action space that gives you 4 weapon cards. If you really do want a specific type of weapon and dont get it using that well then perhaps it's time to change your strategy toward what you HAVE drawn. I can't see weapon card draw having as big of an effect as you say. You should probably build your strategy around what you do have not around what you don't. And if you really want to do something specific then just get more wood or stone which function exactly the same as the weapons. I hope after you made this and once you played the game more, your disdain for the weapon draw has subsided.

[@rahdo]

"then perhaps it's time to change your strategy toward what you HAVE drawn" yes, and i said as much in the video. the issue is, if one player repeatedly has to stop what they're doing and refocus on something new due to poor luck of the draw, while another player repeatedly gets lucky and does not have to do this, that 2nd player is put in an advantageous position due to pure randomness.

[@ShaneandStuff]

I get what you're saying, but I don't think it would be that much of a disadvantage or advantage. First of all, the spaces that utilize weapons are somewhat few and may be blocked for one player or another anyway. Second, like I said, it wouldn't make much sense to hinge that much of your strategy on cards you haven't drawn yet. Even if you're not getting the weapon cards you can get wood or stone that serve the exact same function. There are so many avenues to take, I don't think weapon draw can really hurt anyone or help anyone enough so that the results of a game are seriously affected by it. I'm in the middle of a solo game right now and I got an occupation card right away that let me draw 4 weapons. I had 4 bows, went hunting and rolled high, higher, then highest! So even with 4 bows and some wood it wasn't worth it to me to spend all of them for what you get. I tried again later, succeeded, then tried again and had the same problem. So even if you get the weapon cards you want, you may still be affected by your rolls. I've been able to take other strategies in this game that have turned out really good. Even pillaging with no swords or stone I rolled a 12 and had 3 ore on my longship so I got a 15! I guess what I'm saying is, I feel like you're saying the draw throws the game out of balance, and I disagree. I think they've provided plenty of ways so that no matter what you're not really hurt by bad card draw or bad die roll. But, even if someone were affected badly by this, isn't that part of the risk and part of the theme? I mean, going hunting, whaling, or pillaging, no one is guaranteed success, am I right? :)

[@robertwest4596]

@@rahdo Yes, but as others on this thread have pointed out, there are no actions that are TOTALLY dependent on weapons cards. You can achieve whatever you want through the other alternative resources that an action requires. The importance you're putting on weapons is really way too overblown.

[@dddmmm21]

Hi rahdo, would you do a top 5 (or top 10 even?) Uwe Rosenberg games video? Just like with Feld, I believe we achieve critical mass... Thanks

[@rahdo]

it's on the list of potential topics, but every time it goes on a ballot, the voters shoot it down...

[@dddmmm21]

Got it... So between you and me ;-), how would you rank Feast for Odin, Glass Road and Caverna? Thanks

[@rahdo]

you can see for yourself at ranked.rahdo.com :) well, caverna isn't on there, but that's because we got rid of it, so that should give you some idea of how it ranks for us...

[@dddmmm21]

Got it! :-) Surprised Le Havre also did not make your list... I thought it would since you seem to like a tight game, like Agricola (I dislike the "feed you people or starve" craziness")... I am about to try Feast for Odin and Glass Road! Lets see... Thanks

[@rahdo]

for more info about that: gone.rahdo.com

[@forbiddenforest5327]

I reckon Jen pulled 2 harpoons and said she didn't want to kill the ickle whale-ys. C'mon Rich, you used to design videogames with tazers that could set dudes on fire - Jen's removed your nuts!

[@freejunk2]

blaming on other ppl getting the right cards just seems like an excuse for not playing well.

[@rahdo]

hmm, sounds like someone didn't listen to the entirety of my point on this subject :)

[@freejunk2]

i did hear you, you don't like this game b/c the card draws are random and there's nothing you can do when you get the cards. thats only a problem if it prevented you from doing something or if it gave an advantage to another player yes? if that happens, you can try to do something else to get back on track. and the cards are just one small part of a huge game, just to pick on that one thing doesn't seem reasonable.

[@rahdo]

if you think i don't like the game, then you didn't hear me.

[@freejunk2]

i did hear, you said you like the game but it can't be your top 10 game b/c of that small issue with the randomness of the cards, im saying its not that big of a deal, its just a small part!

[@rahdo]

so i don't like the game? or i do? i'm losing track :) you also started out this whole thing by saying that i'm simply making excuses for being a bad player, so thanks for that as well. ironically, if i were to quote you right back to yourself: "u shouldn't punish other players just b/c one player got lucky with good cards." so actually, you kind of agree with me, i'd say.... :)