Shadow of the Erdtree is Still Very Disappointing (To Me) & Response to Joseph Anderson's Critique

[@feebleking21]

If you get bored from the comment response sections you can skip to 58:24 where I try to be as honest as possible with you about my feelings on the DLC. This video should serve as my final statement about Shadow of the Erdtree. I think I greatly angered the Fromsoft community with my last video, and although I still agree with the bulk of my criticisms I now think I should’ve delivered them in a way that was less polarizing. I tried to do that with this video, but it is difficult for me to communicate in a way that isn’t upsetting to those who disagree with me because of how emotional I can get. Sorry to all the people who were expecting an, “In Defense of Shadow of the Erdtree” video because it will not come (unless it’s a four minute April fools joke video). I only made the “In Defense of Elden Ring Boss Design” video to correct misinformation spread by me and other KZbinrs, and to show people that they can have fun with the bosses as rhythm challenges despite the learning process being boring. Shadow of the Erdtree repeats the same central mistake from the base game’s boss design of having too much trial and error while offering what I see as much worse exploration and less interesting legacy dungeons. If you disagree that’s fine. I just want to clear up the confusion. And to clear up more confusion, me saying in my critique that I wished Shadow of the Erdtree didn't exist never meant that I was saying the DLC was terrible. All it meant was that I would rather have Fromsoft release a higher quality title after multiple years of development, and that Shadow of the Erdtree could be significantly better if they took a few more years to make into a full sequel with reset progression trees and more quality content in the open world. To address one more thing about Joseph Anderson, what he said specifically about waterfowl dance is this: "It’s hard to take this seriously, even though swear to God I really try, when some people take these talking points and run with them so far that they’ll defend waterfowl blade when again, it doesn’t even have a developer intended way of dealing with it when up close… It is very difficult to have a conversation about any possible troublesome moves in the game when the argument is because you can xbox 360 around her at the start of waterfowl or throw a frost pot that it is ‘technically avoidable therefore skill issue therefore get good therefore stop yapping.’” I believe there is a developer intended way to dodge it up close. You run away after hitting Malenia and jump as it almost reaches you, although rolling can work as a worse substitute. I'm not saying that waterfowl dance is good, I'm just saying that he was missing a piece of information in his video. My larger issue with how Joe presented his argument is that he only used one piece of boss evidence to support his claim that he still dislikes many base game bosses, regardless of whether or not that evidence is true.

[@KingSleaze916]

@@feebleking21 Honestly dude you’re entitled to your opinion & if a bunch of man children were upset for you giving it very valid and warranted criticism then that’s out of your control. I enjoyed the video and this one also. At least you have the guts to put what you feel out there for people to see, the sweats who are in the comments salty just hiding behind their username would never be grown enough to do that. Keep your head high Feeble King. The real ones who matter will always be around 🫡

[@fishfriend1170]

​@@KingSleaze916 I've read the comment section and most of the 'upset man children' were pointing out mistakes or politely disagreed with the author's opinion. Yes, this dlc has its flaws, but for me, it is a far stretch to call it the worst when I start to compare

[@christianlangdon3766]

@@upsideproductions2 lol my comment was about feeble going into a dlc disregarding all content aside bosses. When a part of why dlcs are so fun is due to the different build options and such by disregarding all of that it's missing the point that is one of the major pillars elden ring itself is designed around build diversity. There is a weapon for every build style every combination. You can have full spell builds, full buf builds shields are much better and a major component of many builds. Ashes of war create diverse options for many problems that originally you could only dodge roll for. Like to disregard that is like not caring about the old hunters dlc amazing weapons or how it's update added more multiplayer options. And only caring about the 5 bosses of which only 2 I feel deserve their high praise. Idk I feel if you do that your already shouting to the heavens that the game isn't want you want so now your going to complain about it. When so many people are having fun and loving their time. Feeble comes in and says your having fun wrong. He sounds exactly like the guy who says beating game while blindfolded is the only way to really play the game. Like compare rusty or demod and how they criticize the game they have all the same major criticism except they don't act like they are beyond fault and still have fun with the content provided. Feeble doesn't even seem like he enjoys soul games anymore unless he is doing a challenge run which the games will not provide for in every context and its unreasonable to think so.

[@Jikuri]

I mean are you really a friend if you didn't give a pass for your dudes personal war crime level takes 🤣 That's his personality and it still not a crime yet so it's alright overall.

[@bigdumblife]

quit reading comments bro....if you read this stop!

[@kknight_artorias]

maybe the misunderstood masterpiece was the friends we made along the way

[@lanceg6197]

I will forever abhor exploring 10 minutes of dead time just to be rewarded with a cookbook with a recipe i'll never use

[@Lucifer-hq5pe]

Fully agree. That was the worst part of the DLC.

[@percifio1626]

"I will never use" this is the key words here. I personally enjoyed most of the crafting items that i could use and have fun with, same shit people complained about spirit ashes when you finish a dungeon, i didnt use any but it is still a reward for people who use it, there is no way you can make every build equally happy in a *game*.

[@mymousebroke8258]

tell me one time this happened

[@superlucci]

@@percifio1626 Stop gaslighting us and saying you found crafting materials enjoyable. Nobody did. Nobody gave a shit about cookbooks

[@austin0_bandit05]

@@percifio1626 Crafting systems in general suck. Instead of giving me a firebomb here's one ingredient, and then an hour later here's another ingredient, and then later another ingredient. And now I can open a menu click a button and spawn it into existence. That's so much fun 😂

[@BigDBrian]

I find the section on justifying not mentioning st trina questline incredibly questionable. You could've just said "only a cookbook and a lousy questline" with no pacing issues or requirement to explain the entire thing. Leaving it out when you're making a point and even using the term "only" is willful neglect, regardless of whether or not it reinforces your own opinion. Sure you may consider the questline a waste of time, but others may not. You have a responsibility to report accurately on objective matters, lest you misinform others.

[@BigDBrian]

I can't edit my comment on mobile, but quick correction, I don't think you said "only". Main point still stands.

[@feebleking21]

I tend to not bring up opinions unless I spend time providing evidence to support the opinion, and I was hoping people would think through why I didn't mention Trina without me explaining it. I also didn't consider Trina to be a reward so the thought didn't cross my mind that I needed to bring her up. That may have been a blindspot on my end.

[@glisteninggames2981]

​​@@feebleking21 how about the remembrance weapon of Putrescent Knight? that sure could have fit your build very well. dont know how to feel about you glossing over remembrance weapons too

[@horrorpsycho0508]

@@glisteninggames2981 He ignores weapons bc he does not care about weapon variety in an RPG. His words not mine

[@soulsbonder]

I did enjoy shadow of the erdtree like i did with elden ring

[@upsideproductions2]

No one asked you though.

[@skorpon78]

@@upsideproductions2who gives a shit it's his opinion he's just saying it

[@austin0_bandit05]

​@@skorpon78His response was rude but I think he's just making the point that the comment brings nothing to the table. And its Feebles video not his.

[@slothorne8222]

@@austin0_bandit05it brings his opinion which he is allowed to state. Im sure somewhere in this video feeble asked commenters for their opinions on the dlc as well. Haven’t watched yet but this happens in like every video ever

[@austin0_bandit05]

@@slothorne8222 But why state it and lend nothing to the discussion? Feeble makes an hour long analysis and your contribution is "I liked it"? His opinion is fine and I dont actually care he stated it randomly but pretending to be oblivious as to why it would irk people is disingenuous

[@SmoughTown]

Sorry you've had that experience with the community bud. I love your channel even tho I am a certified FS Glaser; I think your opinions are always very well articulated and enjoyable to listen to

[@feebleking21]

I'm fine with the disagreement. What I dislike are the strawman arguments and attempts to 'tear down' my opinion as bad faith or inherently wrong. This is somewhat my fault for not holding back how upset I was in my original critique, but it's also just how the community is. They feel the need to constantly nitpick people who disagree so that they can defend the game they love. As long as the negative comments don't bait me into fighting every boss with 3 or 4 different builds to explain in more depth my issues with the build variety, I think I'm going to just try to move away from Fromsoft criticism. I've basically said everything I feel like I need to say, and I don't enjoy making videos where I have to predict a thousand counter arguments and strawman arguments in the comment section.

[@SmoughTown]

@@feebleking21 Agree mate - as you say people can just disagree and move on. We all want different things, we all experience it in different ways. No game should be immune from feedback, and you shouldnt be attacked for offering up constructive criticism. Which is more or less the point Joe ended his video on as well, people acting like criticism is a personal attack rather than a part of a healthy environment.

[@JDizzle785]

I think Joe’s point about waterfowl dance is that there doesn’t seem to be an intended way to dodge it point blank. Is the intended solution really supposed to be “hit her once and only once and then run the fuck away because she might do a move with no other recourse that will wipe you out if you don’t”? If that’s seriously the case, then that is a whole different issue in my opinion because then you are playing the entire fight passively in fear of the ever-looming threat that is waterfowl dance. A move should not be so powerful and unavoidable that you constantly have to run away from the boss whenever there’s a chance they *might* do it

[@Cathart1c]

Absolutely agree. As someone once said (and I was saying it too) no solution to this move that is presented in the game doesn't seem to be a developers intended way to avoid it. They just dumped this move in the game, didn't test it whatsoever and hoped that players will get around this somehow (and we did), that's not gamedesign.

[@esincorporated6123]

It honestly does kinda ruin her fight.

[@jubei7259]

Not to mention the heal on hit, even if you use a shield lol

[@Cathart1c]

@@esincorporated6123 it's not when you master circling around. One day, in the distant future I will make a guide to it and call it something like "The ultimate guide how to dodge waterfowl dance" but in a nutshell you can do it on medium load, without locking off and you're rolling through her, not away, and then make additional roll in whatever direction. It's pretty consistent when you don't mess up and take only chip damage if a little bit late. If you start circling preemptively it works absolutely perfect (and you can predict it on the 1st phase since it's scripted).

[@Cathart1c]

@@jubei7259 yeah, it's stupid unfair and tedious mechanic that is not even justified by lore, very cheap and artificial way to ramp up the difficulty. And this ability working through the shield not only makes shield strategy obsolete in this fight but it also is absolutely nonsensical since she isn't hurting you, she's only scraping the metal, why the f is she stealing your life by that?

[@ryandavid9850]

Community is dumb and soft. Tied a game to their self worth

[@Stinkymoe]

Fr

[@Hoonter101]

Dumbsoft

[@kim-xo]

They just didn't level intelligence

[@Brunorochliveira]

Complete strawman argument

[@Cephlapodninja]

I mean you are the one who assumes that every player who likes these games attach thier self worth to them and is therefore dumb which is pretty stupid in itself

[@Basidus258]

In one year: Shadow of the Erdtree is a misunderstood masterpiece

[@ziwawe]

Very original, never seen before comment. GOAT

[@officeimpact6377]

Based on what, dumbo? When has he flip-flopped ever?

[@icriinside9305]

Yeah April 1st is gonna go crazy

[@valentinvas6454]

Considering it was developed in less than 2.5 years, it was kind of a masterpiece to begin with. A flawed masterpiece just like the base game. A DLC that introduces 8 new weapon types, 10 story bosses, several mini bosses, a huge new map with more verticality than ever and even some straight up new mechanics like the Sekiro style deflecting is wild.

[@valentinvas6454]

@@theincrediblefella7984 You must be fun at parties

[@ikedogman1]

To be fair the highest ATR weapons are in the DLC and a DLC weapon became the new meta. I don’t know how to quantify these things for comparison but saying that the DLC weapons are underwhelming seems like a complaint people had the day after it came out and then once people played around more and found more that went away. In my experience anyway.

[@peterchestnut5297]

He’s just trolling. Don’t take this video seriously, just look at his video list.

[@alifpatria2135]

Ah yes, i wish the combat is not evolving and just stayed like DS1. Damn, some people just cant move on huh.

[@MarkerMurker]

Move on? It's a Fromsoftware game, people are paying for a specific experience. And if the next game from that studio isn't the experience people wanted, then it's like a betrayal of consumer trust. They lose brand loyalty that way.

[@vazazell5967]

I wish the combat did not degraded and kept going from DS2.

[@matsimurf_5900]

@alifpatria2135 It hasn't evolved. There was more variety of encounter design originally. Mechanically, the fights are very simple in SOTE, the difficulty comes from the hidden meta difficulty, because it's easier to hide the challenge from the player, than just be honest about the telegraphs, tracking, spacing and dodge windows, while creating a variety of fresher mechanics, and providing the player with evolved evasive moves to compensate...instead of leaning on the easy to program, childish adhd philosophy of practice dodging or cheese builds. You don't grasp that the game has become more flashy, yet also more stupid and lazy. Fromsoft just appealled heavily to the loud minority of adhd hyper aggressive sociopaths who pad out the fan base and gaslight all criticism..., with cheap mechanics, as opposed to creating an intelligent and varied challenge with actual evolutions in gameplay depth.

[@alifpatria2135]

@@MarkerMurker i get it but i heard lots of complaints saying ppl cant just big bonk their way through every single boss fight, since lots of them are more aggressive etc and they feel the need to change build just cuz their playstyle that they genuinely enjoy is not "viable". And the experience is being able to pull through, to finally overcome hardship and all that good stuff aint it? I just feel like a lot of the criticisms levelled against the game arent objective flaws of the game, but just people cant stand their ego getting bumped.

[@matsimurf_5900]

​@@MarkerMurker? So how do they get away with creating popular games sekiro, armored core and bloodborne if people just want souls 1? The point is that many fans wish that ds1 had been evolved further in depth, when instead the souls games (specifically) just became more obtuse, and shallower. Elden ring is the culmination of fromsofts lazy design crutches, only spread out like a bland buffet....if i go from one end of the map to the other and find the same enemies, rewards and therefore false depth, it's the failure of a dev in everyone's eyes who have common sense. Unfortunately, many don't have common sense, just rose tinted spectacles and a great capacity for self delusion. "Oh somehow my fun is wrong" is the usual petulant response...well, they would be having many times more fun if they stopped actively holding the games evolution back by encouraging fromsoft to get away with their cheap tricks.

[@anonymousperson8903]

I don't understand how trial and error is such a big issue to you when respawn points are literally just outside the boss arenas...

[@common_undead]

I'm assuming it's a tolerance thing. In DS3, trial and error was much more minimal since positioning hardly mattered unless you were optimizing a low damage no hit run, while in ER it matters a lot more even for a casual not fully optimal build without summons. Similarly, Sekiro has a ton of cool combos you can learn to pull off against bosses with prosthetics + the combat arts, but the trial and error of that is strictly optional since on the default difficulty, just basic deflects + counterattacks and the basic responses to the perilous attacks are more than enough to glide through the experience. In that sense, not having as much of a tolerance for it as ER or Lies of P requires is okay, but I don't think it would be fair to pretend that that is some 'objective' flaw with the game, no more than pretending that not requiring strict positioning in DS3 is a flaw with the game.

[@gdoverlorder]

@@common_undead Yeah, this is basically what I was thinking. There are seemingly two types of players that enjoy ER: those that are very casual and are willing to use summons, and those that have fun putting in hours to master a boss moveset. Those that have a low tolerance for this much trial and error yet still refuse to summon out of a sense of pride (or arrognace) will likely have the least fun with the game.

[@petersvane-christiansen6587]

Your entire section on how the trial and error is not fun just sounds like you're burnt out of these games.

[@common_undead]

This can definitely be the case. I think I really like ER and very rarely feel burnt out by it, and never when learning bosses, because I'm relatively new to the souls games (started with sekiro a few months prior to ER's release), while I'm assuming souls vets like feeble have 5,000 hours in all the souls games combined or something, which yeah, at that point, I'm sure learning new bosses that fit into the similar soulslike formula probably doesn't scratch the itch the way it used to.

[@austin0_bandit05]

He literally says that it plays a part in the video 😂. But beside that ER absolutely can be more tedious to learn than DS3. DS3 you kinda just go in and fling yourself at the boss until it works. ER asks a lot more of the player; positioning, delayed attacks, positional attacks, jumpable attacks, branching combos, input reading, heal windows, etc. Is it so unbelievable that it crossed people's thresholds between fun and frustration/boredom.

[@griffin4556]

I found it a bit annoying that he simplifies the bosses to "hit and dodge", like yeah you're kinda right? But Consort Radahn and Metyr are hit and dodge bosses and I hate them, they're just boring as shit. But I love Messmer, who is also a "hit and dodge" I enjoyed learning him more than most bosses in the other souls games, and Rellana is great too. And none of those gimmick bosses in Dark Souls were ever fun to me, I would like to see them keep trying with interesting boss ideas but they usually just fall flat for me.

[@petersvane-christiansen6587]

@@austin0_bandit05 thats exactly what I adore about ER. Finding attack windows when the boss does delayed attacks, or jump over an attack to do my own feels great. I get how for some people it's not preferable to the old games. It's just the way many of these videos present it as bad game design instead of just saying it's not the kind of gameplay they enjoy.

[@austin0_bandit05]

@@petersvane-christiansen6587 Creating openings is my favorite part as well

[@thebusiest2442]

Its funny because all the criticisms that this DLC is getting is plainly how I felt about the base game.

[@feebleking21]

A lot of the core issues like too much empty space stem from the worst parts of the base game like mountain top of the giants. I think the poor rewards, more copy paste, and more empty space in the DLC made these issues much worse for me.

[@xSilentZeroXx]

Agreed. I wouldn't want a Dark Souls game with Elden Ring's boss design, and Elden Ring is four times bigger. Elden Ring attack patterns are extremely unintuitive. The intended method of avoiding damage should be immediately obvious. Sekiro introduced more than just blocking and dodging, so it introduced the Perilous Attack system where you're expressly told that you can't merely block the next incoming attack and that you must take another action. You're lying if you tell me that jumping over that one Maliketh attack is intuitive. (yes you *can* roll it, but jumping is way easier *if* you know to do it, and that's a big if.)

[@kiamehrgh3081]

I never really liked base game elden ring it was tied with ds2 as my least favorite fromsoft game and i never got the hype for it, I expected the same from the dlc, but it turned out to be my favorite dlc they've ever made and I don't really know why

[@ennayanne]

​@@kiamehrgh3081it's all marketing . fromsoft + open world + GRRMs name attached = 💰💰💰

[@Dabedidabe]

True! It's interesting to see more people coming around to the opinion I had when I was in Liurnia. Somewhat cathartic really.

[@fernandofaria2872]

What infuriates me about some of FromSoftware's design decisions is not that the camera sucks, for example. It's that the camera sucks ON PURPOSE.

[@anonymousperson8903]

What? How so?

[@fernandofaria2872]

@@anonymousperson8903 Because they are _aware_ it sucks, that's why they kinda fixed it in Sekiro, by zooming out in large bosses for example. Watch the Monster Hunter previews for another: they outline your character when your camera is behind an enemy. Fromsoft is too proud, so they sacrifice fairness in favor of difficulty. They *refuse* to change. But i want to fight the boss, not the camera.

[@anonymousperson8903]

@@fernandofaria2872 I think it's more they want you to experience the spectacle of the fight, that's why they don't zoom the camera out. And frankly, the camera isn't even an issue if you don't lock on in most cases...and they expect you to be able to do this at this point. I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt they would make something like the camera bad to add difficulty. That is simply not their design philosophy.

[@fernandofaria2872]

@@anonymousperson8903 It's the other way around: they don't actively make the camera bad, they simply don't invest time in programming a better one because they believe it's a non issue. You are correct about the spectacle: they do it this way to make the boss more intimidating, but that comes with downsides that they refuse to fix. Actually, you know what? They *DID* fix something camera related on the last boss: they improved the visibility of the light effects on the latest patch. I guess it's a start, and proves my point: not being able to see should not be a part of the challenge. You are also correct to say that the camera is not exactly gettin in the way of your victory, the same way a mosquito is simply an annoyance, instead of an actual threat. And thats *precisely* what infuriates me. Mosquitoes are not fun to fight 😒

[@PeterEhik]

@@anonymousperson8903bruh you can’t zoom out when not locked on either so now you’re just turning your camera around to focus on an enemy that jumps around that btw is still attacking while your fiddling with the equipment. Seriously just zoom the camera out and let us take in the spectacle of how big the boss and the arena are. I don’t understand if it’s a technical limitation or something cause I just don’t see the downside. It’s either zoom the camera out or slow down combat so we got time to adjust the camera a needed. I love the game though but the camera is an issue that Sekiro fixed so I don’t know why it’s a problem here

[@unrighteous8745]

Me too. Still far better than most of the other AAA slop out there, but I can't help but feel like those two years of development could have been better utilized on their next game.

[@MrFRNTIK]

They didnt develop it for 2 years. They said there were no plans for dlc and didnt start until sometime before they announced it. We only got a dlc because it ER was insanely successful.

[@unrighteous8745]

@@MrFRNTIK It was announced 16 months before it was released, so they were developing it for at least that long. The time between Elden Ring's release and SotE was 28 months. I really don't think it's a stretch to suggest that they were working on it for at least 2 years. Elden Ring was an immediate smash success; it wouldn't have taken them over 4 months to realize that the DLCs they've been making for every other game (aside from Sekiro 😢) would make money for Elden Ring too. Regardless, my thoughts don't change whether it was a 24 month development time or just 16.

[@canitalian]

@@MrFRNTIKliterally was confirmed that development started after the game launched. Don’t spread wrong shit

[@MrFRNTIK]

@@canitalian nah bro, it didn't. When it was announced they said it wasn't in development for very long. Not to mention they were working on Armored Core. I give it 1.5 years at the most

[@unrighteous8745]

@@canitalian I'm assuming you mean announced? Don't see how they could've started development after it launched lol. Also I can't find anything that confirms when development started? Don't see how I'm "spreading wrong shit" when I'm just using logic to suggest when it might have begun. What's your source?

[@TopMostFlavor]

Fromsoft be like...damn we got a big empty area...ok make there be blue flowers everywhere. Damn we got another one ok red flowers this time

[@DarkReaperK97]

Yo fr. I love this game. But some of these Elden Ring fans need to chill with the blind love they have for the game. It's a fact that this DLC has way too many empty spaces... This should be taken as positive feedback. From Soft can take this feedback and make an even better game in the future. By staying loyal and not calling out issues with the game. They are actively making the game worse.

[@-jobrocodwawz-6226]

Straight up

[@HellonearthlABB]

😂

[@unpingouinsurlabanquise4574]

​@@DarkReaperK97 they are probably aware actually

[@tuesday4564]

there is no excuse for this community to be this toxic or even mad just because someone disagrees with them

[@user-pn4px5lr8w]

This is something that applies to the spectrum of discussion as a whole, particularly the opposite ends of it. It's exhausting to engage with this community at times because an opinion beyond what's accepted on that side is met with some degree of contempt.

[@tuesday4564]

@@Jables97 that also makes sense, but it isnt true for other communities or even if it would be then there isnt nearly as much hatred as elden ring fans show off, at least from experience (although i think feeble said something similar) people are not aggresive when you insult their favorite game I mean the fans should be the most aware of all if we're talking about issues a given game has, when someone talks poorly about my loved games and shittalks them here and there whilst making good points about whats wrong with those games, i wouldnt insult that person and defend those games with my life, every game has flaws and theres nothing wrong with liking a messy game, which is why i find calling the fanbase a cult so very relatable, they tend to not accept criticism yet react agressively to anything that isnt applause for the game. I mean those people litterally called me a retrd and more when i criticised one aspect of elden ring in the comments of some forum

[@alsickbeats]

We need to look at the positive side. Miyazaki himself said he didn't get the perfect RPG with Elden Ring. So let's just be excited about what will come in the future👀

[@BaldOmniMan]

The biggest flaws to me are how the map is largely too barren in the entire southern portion of the map. Quality over quantity is best imo.

[@BaldOmniMan]

Abyssal Woods and Cerulean Coast being the most memorably barren to me. Abyssal Woods was great the first time around because of the uncertainty you felt sneaking around it, but in replays, it’s just annoyingly large.

[@valkeitos]

​@@BaldOmniManonce you get past the ubtouchables it's a pretty straight run to Midra's manse to be fair. Otherwise the southern part of the map wasn't that barren. There was bits of action and relaxation as you moved through the area

[@BaldOmniMan]

@@valkeitosyeah, in my opinion though the overall area could stand to be maybe a quarter of the size it is.

[@lexiferenczy9695]

The emptiness isn't great, I agree. But what irks me the most is that these empty areas are also the ones where the generic repeat enemies stand out the most. I would've preferred pure emptiness over this endless repetition, which feels so incredibly cheap. I especially hate the 1 hp shadow people clogging the whole map and these reskin dragons. The dragons are so overdone I just hate them, and even though their new lich design is cool in and of itself, this isn't enough to make this feel new and refreshing. Nothing would've been better than this. Or maybe put a small lore inscription on a stone or something for variety but not this garbage.

[@DonutSwordsman]

Its so sad how dark souls 1 was methodical, almost relaxing, slow and strategic. Yet elden ring is wastefully big besides the visuals and so fadt paced its no longer relaxing

[@Soundwave1900]

31:48 No. What you've done here is you've created enough distance to not be up close anymore. That's not always possible, far from it. You've attacked with jump heavy and she decided to start waterfowl before it landed? You're locked in recovery animation and you're doomed. You fight with a heavy weapon? You're probably doomed. You've spent 0.4s too long to realise her jump is a start of waterfowl? You're doomed. At that point there's nothing you can do, you can't even throw the bomb, she'll kill you before it leaves your hand. Joseph's point still stands. Overall I think (and I find it funny) you and Joseph actually agree on boss points, you just name the things differently. What you call "a blind spot that I can't believe I couldn't see before but now that I see it i find the boss to be very fair" he calls "an unintuitive exploit you need 20 dumb deaths to accidentally stumble upon", both are the same thing and some people find it (along with abundance of cheap moves like unnaturally delayed attacks and combo follow ups that read your input) unacceptable. Correct me if I'm wrong, no malice intended. Great review regardless.

[@-jobrocodwawz-6226]

What I found w malenia (first phase when she is passive a lot): she either attacks or waits. If you approach her and she attacks straight away it WILL be a hyper armor/wfd attack. If she has a delay when you get close it is always a staggerable attack. With this knowledge and getting in a rhythm where you back up and focus on positioning after every attack you make its pretty consistent to dodge all her attacks, phase 2 is easier imo

[@Undone007]

Why are you arguing with comments from other videos? This is literally lolcow behavior. Let people be toxic, who cares? Speak your mind and move on. Chastising people who you think are being toxic is not going to solve anything. It's the internet my friend, I would not be on KZbin if you can't handle the excessive response you're going to get when you hurt people's feefees. It will drive you crazy.

[@UltraStarWarsFanatic]

>sick & tired of roll/r1 routine, complains about the player's toolkit being unchanged since DS3 >refuses to use anything but a straight sword and a dream, like he's still playing DS3 >baffled that the rewards in ER are primarily for increasing build variety; wishes he only found damage and defense buffs Hmmm. Hrmm.

[@Volsraphel]

Weapon attacks really aren't all that different mechanically bro All it boils down to is losing some openings and gaining more damage per hit to make up for it. And since all weapons are meant to be viable, even that difference doesn't matter really as it's gonna average out to take the same amount of time anyway, unless that specific weapon is OP. It's just about do you like big meaty hits or weaker but more consistent hits. And ash of wars are way too long to use in a lot of cases so you can't count those either

[@petersvane-christiansen6587]

@@Volsraphel We are clearly not using the same Ash of wars if you say they take too long to use.

[@lexiferenczy9695]

But the combat DOES consist mostly out of rolls and the attacks you do differ only in damage outpout and posture break potential. The tools you are given have the only effect to have you interact less with the boss (by doing more damage and thus killing the boss quicker or by posture breaking him more often, so that he can land less attacks), not to interact in a better way.

[@Volsraphel]

@@petersvane-christiansen6587 What is the mechanical difference between square off and impaling thrust? The only slightly interesting ones are the dodge into attack ones like blind spot or blinkbolt. I know some are usable but they are just another version of attacking or buffing usually. Longer ones are just unusable and mobile ones require tons of trial and error to find opportunities to use for dodges.

[@knivy6160]

@@lexiferenczy9695 you don't even need to roll half the stuff enemies do to you in this game... fromsoft combat has always been more about positioning. I find myself rolling LESS the more I understand a boss. Except for the final boss, that guys just kinda disappointing. edit: Also you say that weapons have no differences, but the minor differences in animation (beast claws crouching when chraged, wing stance having a jump in the r2, etc) lead to more opportunities to punish. Rellanna's twin moons have SO many bosses where an opening seems specifically made for it. Of course, there are a lot of "float and explode" type spells, but the fact that faith, int and arcane all have options for this type of spell is NOT a bad thing either. Having options just for flavor, or maybe even just damage type differences is perfectly fine. If you take power stance movesets and weapon arts into account, the options are both limitless, but also pointless, at least from an objective standpoint. Ultimately, as has always been the case, fromsoft games are about finding the fun as you play. Feeble seems to just want a "boss rush" game ds3 style, but elden ring actively goes out of it's way to avoid being like ds3.

[@stevemichael652]

Welcome to the mainstream. This is what happens when casuals infiltrate a fandom. They come in, play it once while destroying everything in its path, then leave. And we’re left with the pieces.

[@OldManJ3nkins]

He admits he's not perfect in the first 30 seconds of the video, it's never been more over...

[@feebleking21]

LOL

[@KingSleaze916]

I’ve never seen a dumber comment in my life

[@mikeyswift2010]

"All I get for the kill is two remembrance weapons." I mean, yeah. What do you want Fromsoft to peel you a fuckin grape too? Like, wtf else do you want? You also get their armor!

[@echo1180]

Scadurtree fragments dawg. Progression items.

[@baltzy1616]

@@echo1180 Go look for them like you did already with your golden seeds and sacred tears in the base game you lazy bum. Or go play Sekiro or Armored Core cause those games don't need Exploration.

[@cjzizzari2405]

All the boss weapons are trash in the DLC. Maybe 2 are good but mostly buns

[@exodus5187]

@@mikeyswift2010 One of the big rewards in the base game for defeating remembrance bosses is a bunch of level ups. Mohg himself gives like 400,000 runes, which is quite a few level ups for players, especially considering how early you could potentially fight him, which is a good reward because it means that even if you aren't able to use the weapon or spell the boss gives you, you still get a reward in the form of leveling up a ton. The bosses in the dlc give you far less runes, and don't give shadow tree fragments, which is kind of like the dlcs own way of leveling up, meaning for a lot of builds, there isn't even a reason to fight some remembrance bosses. Rellana doesn't give you a lot of runes or any fragments, and you have the option to skip her, so if I'm not making a build that could use the weapon or spell she gives me, I have no real reason to fight her, unless I just really like the boss. I don't mind Rellana, but not everyone will like her and you get my point here

[@thecenturion1634]

@@cjzizzari2405most of them are viable or are getting buffed. Some like rominas halberd are shit, but to say all of them are bad is just wrong. They can all be very good, you just have to build around it.

[@Kuliaao]

It's really sad, i think you may have fromsoft fatigue, i really enjoyed the bosses, the map was way too big and started to feel empty and meaningless halfway trough, i accepted that is an intrinsic flaw of open worlds

[@MittyKitty]

"just run away[to the entire other side of the room] every time you hit her to avoid water fowl" is not the defense you think it is

[@conorfiler5820]

@@generights Only on reaction in my experience (I almost exclusively have medium roll)

[@-jobrocodwawz-6226]

I think it is. Literally just run away from her and dodge/jump when she hits the ground, you'll at max only take a little chip if you don't time it or the rest of the attack perfectly. All of her other attacks are easily dodgable

[@MerdaDeCabelo]

"every time you hit her" my guy you do know that the Waterfowl is a triggered event after a certain amount of health right? From what you are saying I assume you struggled with her (as we all did) and yet you didn't catch onto the fact that the chances of her doing waterfowl back to back are extremely low unless you are doing a DISGUSTING amount of damage to her to trigger back to back waterfowl.. For most of us we fight her normal and pay attention to her health, when she gets below a certain amount is when we get careful and then after she does it and you managed to dodge it you go back to the back and forth dance, rinse and repeat until dead. The Waterfowl is a move designed to keep you on your toes at specific moments in the fight. All of this to say... Yes... Yes it is the defense we KNOW it is, and if that isn't enough for you then let go of your pride and just use Frost Pots if you think the move is SO unfair, just remove the move entirely from the game, the option IS there, no one is forcing you to learn tk dodge it if you don't think it's fair. Just don't tell others that we don't know what we talking about just because we either learned how to dodge it by overcoming the odds or learned to use the games mechanics to bring the fight down to our level but you refused to do either whether due to stubbornness, pride or simply bitterness.

[@Light-20]

I think there's something no one has ever touched on and that is the open world factor. I just don't think it works long-term with Souls games. Souls games work best as intentionally crafted mazes of levels weaved together with the only respite being the hub world and the bonfires you find. I feel like the open world gets rid of the fear factor of heading into a dungeon, it makes crafting a build and maxing out a new character a nightmare which kills replayability and by extension multiplayer, results in less core, crafted content because more is spent on the open world and results in a less condensed experience than a normal Souls game.

[@Guanjyn]

I’ve seen people defend the dlc by saying the base game map was also empty and devoid of content… wut.

[@austin0_bandit05]

I think you just barely miss the mark with the critique of Joseph Anderson. The point about needing speed runner strats and having to exploit a boss's moveset. He's objectively wrong but his "experience" was sort of right. Let me explain. Elden Ring has a visual language problem. It often fails to communicate with the player. When a boss raises its sword its communicating to the player that an attack is about to happen. When Malenia rises into the air and descends in a flurry what is being communicated to me as the player? And this is why people would bash their heads against her for so long. Look at people's gameplay. Some people beat Malenia never having learned how to properly dodge it. There is an imbalance between the amount of information communicated and how much the player needs to intuit. And there's a lot of attacks like this. It wouldn't be such a problem but some of these principles or strategies the player needs to learn are often used once and then never again. Hell most ER bosses are just DS3 bosses. So its very easy for the player to learn nothing. Its pretty telling how many people hate ER on first playthrough and then learn to love it their second run. Key word there LEARN. Even Loopine who debunked Joseph Anderson admitted this was his experience. And look how the community's opinion as a whole shifted over time. There were a lot more haters early after its release but over time people came around I think a great example is Rykard's earthquake attack. You cant jump it, you cant dodge it, the correct strategy is to run to the side and jump at the last moment. And the game expects the player to figure that out? Another is the relationship between healing and input (animation) reading. This is communicated soooo poorly some people still dont understand it and just heal through hits. And worse still a lot of bosses are not designed around this. The idea is that you are supposed to heal when they're mid combo or heal when you're behind them because they're effectively blind. But I only know that because of a Zullie the witch video. And as I mentioned earlier most bosses play like DS3 bosses. Its hard to learn something that isnt being taught. It also leaves you somewhat at the whim of the boss and when they decide to do an attack that is ideal for healing. Which does create an interesting dynamic but I often found tedious trying to parse out which attacks and when to heal. Then you have Rellana who throws this all out the window for some reason and has combo branches that she can change mid combo and do here blue sword slice. Then there's jumping. Myself and a lot of people did a whole playthrough not jumping attacks because visually they dont seem jumpable... so why would I try? 😂 Again Zullie for the win. Her video is the only reason I knew the jump had s in the first place. And this was so consistent on release among players I think it almost warranted a pop-up explaining it in the tutorial. Poor communication often comes in the form of positional attacks. Some are done well but others like Rellana's uppercut not so much. It is very difficult to differentiate this attack from any other attack from neutral. I beat her my first playthrough never learning this. There are good positional attacks like gap closers and tail swipes from behind. But fhen there's something like Godskin Nobles belly attack. Its nigh unreactable and it seems like the intended strategy is to just never stand in front of him and strafe constantly? Similarly with the Death Bird's shriek. What is the lesson there? More than being an interesting way to play it is annoying and people consistently seem to not learn a proper response. Again they're not being given enough information. Actually its the same think Joe Anderson complained about Pontiff Sulyvhan and his blue sword poke.

[@JohnDoe-sq5nv]

>Even Loopine who debunked Joseph Anderson admitted this was his experience. No, he never said that. That was Feeble King's incorrect interpretation of what he said: That he at first didn't know how to beat the bosses. Not that he wasn't having fun, because he was. I'm the same, I've always had fun with the game but ER became so much easier when I learned to be aggressive.

[@austin0_bandit05]

@@JohnDoe-sq5nv I didnt even know Feeble made a video on Loopine 😂. So no I didnt get it from him. Maybe if I say it more gently. He said something to the effect of he learned to appreciate it more on his 2nd playthrough

[@billjacobs521]

It's the problem of "difficulty"; have become known for it, they have to keep pushing it, making enemies less intuitive, give fewer tells, have more moves, give you more ways to avoid damage but make few of them work at any given time, etc. That core audience that just obsesses over being good at FromSoft games keeps demanding more and shouting down anyone who says they'd prefer something else. Or even just more of the same; keep the great variety of enemies and moves, just don't work so hard to make them annoying to fight just to please the tryhards. People still like Demon Souls and Dark Souls 1, so they don't have to keep cranking it up (if they want to do that, add a higher difficulty option for those people). It's sort of amazing how some really good players actually had an easier time not even really paying that much attention to the enemies and instead just being aggressive and trying to get a feel for the "rhythm" of the fight instead, because the visual clutter and tricky tells are so hard to deal with.

[@KNGDDDE]

I beat elden ring and the dlc this year. My character ended on ng+6. After learning how to poise break margitt (30hrs in or do, I beat a lot of caelid b4 coming back somehow) I didn't hit anymore roadblocks except the gargoyle fights. I think this game is pretty easy to learn, it's simply just the timing. I kno most of you don't use mimic or summons... But I always used them and my 1st 200hrs of elden ring was pure euphoria or buildcrafting and overcoming bosses. I think a lot of ppl had to learn to love ER because they'd played it with souls standards. If ppl would've used summons and more varied builds, then maybe Joe wouldn't have given loopine they alley oop of the century for a critic.

[@adamduh379]

That was the difficulty in other souls games as well, I remember playing ds3 and I passed half of the game with fat rolling and I didn't upgrade my weapon up until the abyss watchers(I was saving titinite shards because I was afraid that I will want to switch to another weapon), after watching some guides the game became easier That's why I agree with feeble's point about those games aren't actually being hard, they just have a lot of unique mechanics and the games don't really communicate anything to the player, so it's frustrating at first but once you learn it becomes much easier and fun

[@revenant097]

"The Lost Soul Arts of Dark Souls" section should be the intro of the video because it really does contextualize and explain your whole attitude towards ER.

[@billjacobs521]

As someone who is NOT a massive FromSoft fan, but who has watched the fanbase develop since Dark Souls, I do find it interesting how they have changed. Yes, Git Gud has been a meme answer since then, but there was also a backlash from the fans AGAINST the idea that difficulty was the overriding motive. They would get mad about that accusation, they'd say "Hey, this game has some great lore, level design, enemy design, build variety, atmosphere, and so on! Stop acting like it's Super Meat Boy or something where punishing difficulty is the only draw! More games should learn from this!" But overtime, probably as an unintentional result of the KZbin/streaming community showing their challenge runs and learning how to beat every boss with turkey slaps, the fanbase has largely been subsumed by exactly those people. It's all about the meta, the builds, the challenges, the desire to push the difficulty to the limit, all with bombastic action setpieces. They actively mock the obscure lore and have little appreciation for any other details of the design. And of course, yes, every complaint, no matter what it's about, will be met with "You only say that because you're bad at it," even to streamers who have shown proof of them owning Radahn without any cheese, as if it is physically impossible to overcome a challenge and still not like some aspects of it, or to appreciate any other dimension of Soulsborne titles. I personally laugh at certain elements that FromSoft has always used, like rolling through solid matter being the main battle strategy, instead of actually AVOIDING attacks or blocking them, which are, in many cases, viewed as noob traps--look at the idiot making intuitive choices instead of ramming his face into the attack! I wish FromSoft had made their games more intuitive and fun, instead of more obscure and punishing. We'll see if the reception to this DLC, which was far less glowing than the base game, makes FromSoft consider whether they have pushed that particular element to it's limit, and either innovate or just focus more on the other elements like dungeon design and such again.

[@animeguitarguy]

Great insight. I'm inclined to agree that much of the "fans" and From themselves seem to have forgotten all the stuff that used to set From apart

[@MgMast3r]

I felt like this too , lmao, and still think it looks absolutely silly when I see someone stay in THAT ONE SPOT where Bayle's breath misses 'em as it forks out, even tho' it looks like it hit them. Like... why would ANYONE intuitively do that? And the answer is, they wouldn't - it's just that through enough trial & error, you'll eventually figure out where's safe to stay & where not , even in the wildest, dumbest, most non-sensical places. At some point it becomes a comedic to me, lol.

[@jubei7259]

Git Gud originally was a term of encouragement but over time it's metastasised into outright derision as From's games became increasingly popular unfortunately.

[@tommyferret4121]

@@animeguitarguy I don't think From has forgotten, just some of the fanbase. Elden ring still has a lot of good interesting lore, environmental storytelling, level design, good music, storytelling in that music (Did you know Midra's theme has a motif of the song the frenzied merchants play?) Etc. From still has more intricacy in the design than purely boss fights, it's just a lot of the community who ignore that.

[@Sephirothkingdom782]

@@tommyferret4121 yea people only think their games are about boss fights

[@UnknownUnknown-uq5rv]

Elden ring isn't for me, just too much open space, imagine a game with just legacy castles connected together. I'll give ER another try after finishing the other souls games.

[@BSJINTHEHOUSE420]

We need a Feeble King and Joseph Anderson collab criticizing FromSoft fanboys.

[@AizNanika]

i'd pay for this

[@travisbickle3835]

nah they woul just shout : bosses are too hard exploration too hard

[@DooDoo-f4v]

​@@travisbickle3835oh look here's one now! Imagine defending this slog of a map. Woohoo another cookbook! Woohoo another subpar boss! Woohoo more butterfly wings! Woohoo a mid weapon! Woohoo a mid spell/incantation. Quit meat riding Miyazaki. He will never love you dummy.

[@BBQcheese]

With all due respect, this comment is nonsense. Joe and Feeble King are a large part of what caused the toxicity in the discussion in the first place. To be clear, I agree with a lot of what Joe said in his video towards the end however BY HIS OWN ADMISSION (subjectivity is implied video) he has a responsibility to try and make sure what he's saying is accurate. Both of them released videos rife with misinformation and THEIR fanboys spent two years running around uncritically parroting everything they said. To FK credit he at least made an attempt to correct it which I respect. Anderson waited over two years and then went on a large tangent about how of we don't criticize Fromsoft for problems that have always existed they're going to end up like Bethesda. I agree with this, but he didn't do that in his original video. In fact he hand waived actual problems to talk about problems he invented and are inaccurate. For example... 'Look there's are tons of problems with hitboxes and all that usual shit but the fundamental issue is this, it's far too often a dice roll guessing game whether or not I can safely damage a boss...' 👆 That is from Joe's original video. It's nonsense and he's hand waiving actual issues to double down in his #1 problem with the game period (RNG combo extensions) which is a complete fabrication he invented to explain combat mechanics he didn't understand. Both of them could take some responsibility because if you don't like the game that is 100% fine and your opinions are absolutely valid but spreading misinformation is not. Some of the most vitriolic things people have said to me are people parroting their talking points and becoming irrationally angry when someone points out that they aren't accurate. You hear people repeating their arguments like 'bosses have RNG combo extensions' (they don't) or 'bosses input read and punish melee attacks' (they don't) or 'there's no safe punish windows' (there are plenty) it gets extremely aggravating to the point where people just want to hand waive the bullshit by saying skill issue. Basically, KZbin 'critics' are responsible for a lot of the toxicity in the community and it would be nice if they accepted some responsibility for that and tried to be better themselves rather than constantly just pointing fingers.

[@szalyn8849]

​@@BBQcheesegod bless your immense cooking chef, be sure to rest your fingers after writing out this gold

[@nehemiahsalters1350]

People need to understand that just because you enjoyed a game that doesn't mean it isn't flawed. And it being flawed doesn't take away from your enjoyment.

[@exodus5187]

I think the biggest issue with this dlc could have been avoided if they decided to make it more in line with their previous dlcs by making multiple shorter dlcs rather than one huge big one like this. It feels like they were trying to make an entire new Elden Ring game with how many new weapons types, consumables, and crystal tears they added, but because of how big they wanted to make it they ended up not having enough overall content to fit into the giant scope of the game. I think they were tying to do too much all at once, and because of that they ended up falling short in a little too many areas. My opinions of the dlc have only gotten more aggressive the more I played it, and the things I disliked I now hate, but the things I liked I now love. Some of the bosses I love, some of them I despise, but the entire time I've spent playing this dlc has only made me wish more and more that this was a smaller more linear dlc like how they did previously, rather than a giant new open world that is so big it just ends up being exhausting to explore. They tried something new and I respect it, but I really hope they look at this and decide to go back to how they made their previous dlcs

[@feebleking21]

Imagine how cool the dlc could have been if it was just shadow keep connecting to small overworld zones and other legacy dungeons.

[@exodus5187]

@@feebleking21 I would have loved that. They could have spent all their time making shadow keep the best legacy dungeon in the game. But for me that's probably Leyndell Capital. Would have gladly paid for just shadow keep if they focused their entire development on it

[@verygoodfreelancer]

hi!! as a viewer who actually enjoys your videos, i prefer when you come across aggressive! much more genuine and interesting to listen to. thanks!!

[@Ay-Kira]

it’s funny hearing him frustrated too😭

[@ennayanne]

I don't think AGGRESSION is necessarily what makes him come off as genuine. btw the dog drawing in your pfp is adorable

[@verygoodfreelancer]

@@ennayanne yeah it’s not the aggression, i just watch his videos bc i like intentional game design, and hate the trend of modern empty open world games that waste ur time, so i feel less crazy watching his videos lol

[@-jobrocodwawz-6226]

​@@verygoodfreelancer same

[@revenant097]

"most attacks are delayed and come out faster than human reaction" - can't take the critique too seriously after hearing that. It's a shame you couldn't enjoy the bosses but I think you might have done this to yourself. You might be seeing what you already decided is there. And the point about delayed attacks is such a tired pointless complaint, if you're not analyzing specific animation readability or visibility and providing actual arguments based on that data then the criticism comes down to "I just don't like this".

[@NamelessSekiro]

Sounds like a skill issue to me.

[@JEFF-we9cx]

I feel like you shouldn’t really be exploring PURELY to improve your build and get stronger. That is a positive side effect of exploring not the main motive. Exploring in this game makes a lot more sense if you are doing it with the mindset of “completing” the game which is what people should do anyways. ALSO your approach to bosses is just not very optimal for souls bosses. You aren’t and shouldn’t go into the boss with “oh yeah I’m gonna beat him in like 2 attempts” you have to learn attack patterns just like in Sekiro. If you went into Sekiro trying to beat bosses first try then you will fail. If you did have that mindset it means that it just luckily worked out for you and Elden ring is way more punishing with mistakes than Sekiro. With that all being said I think a lot of your critiques are very valid. You don’t have to enjoy the game but I was a little confused when you criticized Elden ring for some things but not remaining consistent with the other titles you criticized. I would like to hear your thoughts regarding this matter and if I got your arguments wrong and that there’s more depth into why.

[@LadyMoonboy]

Completely agree with you. Most people don’t explore or fight bosses because they expect a reward at the end of it. They just want to fight a giant dragon or a half- centipede half-scorpion lady. The bosses themselves ARE the reward for exploring. That is why I play these games, to fight cool creatures and learn their movesets to perfection. The remembrance they drop is just a cherry on top for me.

[@nestroit5010]

dodge...attack....dodge....attack

[@morgoth9590]

They didn't want to tie the scadutree fragments to bosses because they wanted you to be able to experience bosses at your desired level of difficulty. They said that in an interview before the expansion came out.

[@austin0_bandit05]

@@morgoth9590 Smithing stones as a progression system did it better. There's more than you need and you can afford to miss a dungeon or two. Fragments made exploration feel artificial and like a chore. Also I think in the end the opposite ended up happening. Lots of people -including myself- did the first few bosses probably under the ideal blessing level and then got to the 2nd half where they dump a bunch of them on you all at once and then I accidentally over-leved and absolutely bodied later bosses like Midra and Romina. I think the base game did it better as well where it kinda sets you up for an ideal level and you're vaguely aware of where you should be because the smithing stones are tiered -but if you're struggling with Margit lets say- you CAAAAN go to Caelid or Liurnia and get even stronger. And I think it boils down to how they built the map. Each biome acts as a segment that has its own tier of smithing stones (vaguely). And skipping biomes is a very deliberate choice. I think this is one instance where clarity was needed more than nebulous freedom. Also it makes it annoying trying to perfectly tune my own difficulty setting especially a boss I've never fought before in my life. Idk what I should expect for damage output and damage received. I'd rather have a boss that may be slightly more difficult than is ideal for me and git gud. Better than playing a guessing game. The systems intent for tuning my own difficulty isn't clear either unless you watched this interview

[@feebleking21]

That's a good point. I have to say that I think the disadvantage of not having good rewards for all builds for completing content heavily outweighs the advantage of letting players experience bosses at their desired difficulty, especially since players can just choose not to level up or increase attack power after beating bosses like in Dark Souls or Sekiro to accomplish the same thing.

[@abyssoull]

@@feebleking21 bro hasn’t heard there are these things called “runes” in the game that you get from every boss 🔥🔥

[@bluzo9499]

I think what i hated the most was just coming across low tier upgrade materials no reason to come across smiting 1 and 2 when i can purchase them 10 mins into a fresh save

[@harveyohare]

Open world is the worst aspect of Elden slop and its dlc

[@tahireed]

This video just reaffirms that older players (my friend) are burnt out and newer players (me) enjoy the trial and error.

[@KNGDDDE]

No, just that this dlc does it poorly. Ds1 and ds2 are similar in terms of difficulty (both being slowed clunky). The difference is ur not dying to ganks 70% of the time in ds1.

[@tahireed]

@@KNGDDDE I didn't die to ganks 70% of the time. So idk who you are talking about? I enjoyed the trial and error in this more than Ds1 because it felt like I accomplished much more. Ds1 is outdated and very easy.

[@KNGDDDE]

@tahireed the fact that you said that about a dlc that invalidates your levels is wild. Also, the point being made was how they go about the trial and error. I don't find much fun getting 2-3 shot for 20hrs. But since ur a newer player it'd make more sense you having more tolerance for it. Hence why I compared ds1 and 2

[@tahireed]

@@KNGDDDE Trial and error is about getting good, not leveling up so Idk what point you think you are making. "Getting two shot for 20 hours" I played on NG+4, never took my vigor above 50 and I was getting 2-3 shot. Unless, you were trying to make it hard for yourself like me, you shouldn't have been getting two shot. 60 vigor with 20 fragments is easy to obtain and more than enough for the Dlc. You are right in that I have a higher tolerance and that's the point I was originally making. I like the new "overtuned" bosses because they feel like more of an accomplishment to beat. I completely understand older players being put off by it, though.

[@KNGDDDE]

@@tahireed trial and error is about trial and error. Getting good is about learning and practice. Sure thru trial and error you can dodge all of margitt. But when u get gud you incorporate jump attacks, you crush his moves using stances, you hit him with two charge attacks on his mind up for guaranteed posture break. The newer bosses don't have such skill expression, which is my issue with the dlc. When everything deals high dmg, roll catches, when fodder enemies start having positional openings... This is the part I lose patience for. The consistent, elevated demands from artificially inflated health and dmg. Also I played half thus dlc on ng and restarted with my ng+5 gal. I hit radahn with scad lvl 17. I had played +50hrs at that point. Please stop acting as if these bosses were sooo difficult. They're tough, but mainly just aggravating. Luke I said, I dont find getting 2-3 shot @ lvl 290 very fun. It was even worse on my ng gal. The enemies were too hard to drop such little runes. I could go on but I don't feel most ppls concept of difficulty get past dmg values. I'd rather the bosses have been much more interesting overall. Imagine if the snake overcame mesmer and the fight became itachi vs kabuto. That'd be way cooler than "hey bud can you dodge 20 frame attacks from across the arena? Why make things fun when they can be difficult? Ideology on display in the dlc. If we wanna talk about getting gud fr, come back after u got nioh 2 DotN unlocked. You kno Nioh is hard because it's the only soulsluke no one talks about... Probably because it's actually demanding in fair and unfair ways ways with a lot of depth and original mechanics. A lot more than dodge/block/parry. Sorry for the long post I got carried away

[@6FootVampire]

Am i the only one who is stunned by Messmers handsomeness?? Take a look at his face - you would be lucky to look like that ❤

[@joeymayer7681]

In regards to the St. Trina thing, I don’t think people were upset because the questline was some fantastic and well constructed side quest, I think it’s more that it felt disingenuous to cite that specific example as one where there was nothing to find but a cookbook. I do agree that the St Trina reveal was underwhelming, but it still is definitely additional, somewhat significant content that is a “reward” for beating putrescent knight. I still do agree that exploration had underwhelming extrinsic rewards for my build, all I really added was a new armor set and 1-2 talismans.

[@feebleking21]

My bigger problem were the toxic comments and claims that I am disingenuous and misleading for leaving out evidence that supports my central argument. Maybe I should've mentioned Trina, but some comments blew this nitpick out of proportion.

[@joeymayer7681]

That’s totally valid! I think claiming that you were deliberately being misleading is pretty goofy, especially cuz like you said, it’s not like the st Trina quest was an amazing reward either. Idk was just trying make the counter argument a bit more cohesive

[@feebleking21]

@@joeymayer7681 yeah the videos can always be better.

[@TheRealDavi]

This is a DLC ... and it's way better than Zelda Totk

[@PiterTraceurFA]

I follow this channel because the singular arguments you make can be interesting but the conclusion always seems like rage bait

[@anonymous01201]

That’s because it is

[@zaynthemane]

@@torchlight3173 Or it’s just an asinine conclusion? Perfectly fine to critique the DLC and say it’s not perfect. Nothing is. But then concluding with “worst DLC they’ve ever made” (they’ve literally made a $15 DLC with one area and two bosses before) is quite a reactionary take. No? And no amount of “I meant all DLCs packed together for each game” will nullify the clickbaity nature of that statement.

[@christianlangdon3766]

​@@zaynthemane yea i think people are willing to think that past ones get passes by virtue ot not being as relavant. Like my hot take aside ashes dks artorias is easily the second worst dlc. It has three distinct areas, with the shortest being the only one with actual places to explore and hidden fun things to discover. The bosses are the only thing holding it up and thats only becouse base game dks i think has some of the most underwhelming bosses as a package. There is reason ornstein and smough are the only bosses from the base game ever talked as of they accomplished somthing great. (Though i think the gargoyles is under apreciated). Like just the catacomb dungeons from this dlc are better than the whole dlc areas of the worst. A lot of people just cant get over that the overwolrd os meant to be a cool set peice vs like the main gimmick.

[@christianlangdon3766]

@@torchlight3173 I understand that that's why I understand why there isn't a large vocal community of people saying hey this is some B's like when they did dark souls remastered and didn't even fix many bugs. I just find it funny that the concept of having fun in the dlc by interacting and exploring even if sometimes not the greatest it is somehow being claimed to be among the worst dlcs. When in reality it's areas are among the best of any dlc. Sure you can argue bosses. But the only area of a dlc I felt more involved with and satisfied with was sunken city. Most dlc areas and enemies up tend to have the same problems as elden rings more problematic ones. Except elden has a lot more content spread over it. So while some enemies such as furnace golems are stupid. People forget adjudicator giants from ringed City are worse. We have the horned warriors, who are almost always by themselves, vs Alley way of the big bois and angel firing decks. I like ringed City but it's bosses and side paths are doing all the heavy lifting of making it good. The legacy dungeon of the shadow keep is among my favorite areas to explore given it seems to have infinite books and crannies and a variety of ways to explore it. Also feeble is among has become an ultra jaded purist. Bro went in said I don't care about any new content only bosses and the scadu system. Which is entirely a difficulty slider. And like if I whent in to bloody dark souls and said naw this game is trash because the bosses are underwhelming most would rightfuly laugh at such a reductive point. Even feeble in his sl1 runs considers bosses the only metric worth considering which is just never been the case. Areas and standard enemies are more important to general health of a game. It's a part of why dks2 scholar feels worse is by adding so many additional enemies it makes areas feel badly designed. Also while it's cool that artorias is as good as it is. Still doesn't help it's last area is one where enemies can one shot or tickle you to death.

[@klatschi7968]

W Take, but as the comment above me said, it was way back and for the time it was great

[@cagrgunduz9934]

April 1st next year definetly gonna have a "Shadow of the Erdtree is a misunderstood masterpiece" video

[@BaldOmniMan]

44:50 St Trina’s quest line was a bit silly with the multiple deaths part of it lol.

[@mymousebroke8258]

it was really cool discovering it for the first time though, i was fooling around with my friends then i thought about telling thiollier of st trina cause hes obsessed with her or whatever

[@marchmelloow]

It makes perfect sense. You learn that you need a _lot_ of nectar to hear St. Trina, but you also learn that you will never wake up again if you drink it even once. So, realizing that you can come back to life when you die, you figure out that you can overcome this contradiction by dying to it multiple times.

[@alexvenancio1336]

Being difficult used to be a marketing strategy. If you think about it, the dark souls trilogy wasn't hard apart from 3. Easy bosses could be memorable, just think of pinwheel and many others. Going through undead burg was in itself a "boss fight", the literal boss at the end of it was just a payoff. In elden ring, the areas are just an empty section you have to run through in order to get to the real attraction: the boss at the end. People only talk about the bosses, there's no blighttown in this game, no gutter or any other well thought area designed to be a cool challenge for exploration, which sucks bc it's a game that wants you to explore so fucking bad. You can see they really wanted you to reach the bosses and forgot about everything else. There are entire sections filled with harder versions of previously encountered enemies (no design change, just larger hp and damage output), placed there just to serve as a space in between bosses. The bosses themselves are ridiculous. Difficulty on steroids, cheap attacks spammed, damage output on parody levels, speed and poise always on max, and the HP bar seems endless. It's like you're fighting champion gundyr but he only does the annoying charge attack, only now there's also an AOE to punish your correct dodge timing at the end. BUT, if you read 300 pages of wiki, do what the KZbin community is telling you to do in over 60 hours of videos, you'll be able to beat everything. You just have to kill your build and reduce your character to this specific set of items people are telling you to use. Very nice. I made a reddit post asking what should I do to fix the frame drops on my fucking 4060. I shit you not, my post was downvoted to hell and there was people dunking on me for complaining about my framerates dropping from 60 to 25 for seemingly no reason. Because God forbid this ultimate masterpiece gets ANY SINGLE PIECE of criticism right?

[@aenesidemus_schulze]

Yes! I think the subterranean shunning grounds were the best area in the game, but even they come nowhere near the feeling and aesthetics of the depths and blight town (although I didn't really like the gutter that much).

[@alexvenancio1336]

@@aenesidemus_schulze I'm biased bc ds2 is my favorite, but you're right. Every level in ds trilogy had a really well thought exploration process. People would often talk about sections of the map, not just bosses. Sen's fortress, undead burg, the whole first half of ds1 was really well put together and not just about the bosses. Ds2 was also like this, even shrine of Amana (an area people like to piss on) was elaborated in a way you would see exploration as a challenge and not just the boss at the end. When you're not rushing with torrent and missing all the challenge, you're dealing with areas that feel so devoid of planning they're just there to fill the gaps.

[@MrWorld1995]

Didn't watch the last video as I only just randomly came across this video and your channel, so I don't know how much of an issue this was. But just hearing you talk about it in this video I by default assume you are lying about the Putrescent Knight rewards. It's always a red flag when someone presents the opposing side with an overly complex and extreme argument(like you're engaging in some sort of conspiracy), while also giving yourself the most generous and reasonable position(claiming that mentioning the rewards would actually "help" your argument due to how bad they are). You could have easily just said "the reward is a cookbook and a shitty quest." and it would have kept the pace of the video entirely. You didn't, because regardless of your own opinion on the quest, you understand that most people who play these types of games consider doing a quest a good reason to beat a boss. In short, you wanted a snappy point to contribute to your argument and mentioning the quest reward would cut against that point. No conspiracy, no working for aliens, that's the simple and straightforward reason. Normally, I wouldn't assume a person is by default being manipulative, but the way you presented this criticism in this video is blatantly that. You should have just said you don't value St Trina stuff and ended it there without all the extra bullshit. Maybe I'm wrong and you're being honest, could be you're just mad at having your integrity questioned... but presenting yourself and the opposing side in this way just makes me think, nah, probably not.

[@epsilon1275]

Yeah no that's this guys entire channel, every video is "(insert game) critique where I say game dev bad, my idea good. Also rage bait"

[@tj3423]

Just to help balance out the comments section, I'll add that I pretty much agree. I don't need to write a paragraph explaining why, but the fact is I enjoyed SoTE significantly less than the main game and nobody's comments or reasoning is going to change that.

[@D0verking69]

I feel like these games have such a passionate fanbase because they felt the magic you did in DS1 but in Elden Ring. I felt the same euphoric feeling playing the DLC as the base game. Sorry if some of my comments were so aggressive. I do think this DLC could’ve been a game where From fleshed out and added some areas

[@-jobrocodwawz-6226]

Elden ring just doesn't have that magic though. Nothing can compare to meeting gwynivere for the first time

[@andrewramirez3998]

Maybe some people like the older players just have their own taste, I only started these games with the Demons Souls remake and then played all of them. My first playthrough of Elden Ring was the most magical I felt out of them all

[@abyssoull]

@@-jobrocodwawz-6226I started with DS3 and DS1 was my favourite game in the entire series. I refused to play ER for a year or two since I preferred the old games at first, but since I’ve given it a real chance and played through the game pre-DLC I have to say Elden Ring is far and beyond better than Dark Souls. There are things that I can say I like about DS1, but no other game they’ve created come close to the exploration, combat depth, enemy variety, weapon variety, and extrinsic rewards. There are bits and pieces you could argue are better in Dark Souls sure, but the only reason I can see people liking it more for is the nostalgia.

[@milesh3651]

One of my big ER DLC issues are with the Furnace Golems. I hate them. They are the worst.

[@Avalan666]

Finally learing how to defeat them and doing so was one of the highlights of the DLC for me.

[@snubcaboose132]

Learning that fire of all things was the weakness to a fire headed enemy was honestly absurd

[@Ostrava6572]

@@Avalan666…..interesting..

[@user-mf1lo5fj6s]

@@Avalan666 The thing about furnace golems is they take forever to kill while being mechanically simple. I wish you only had to knock them over once instead of twice.

[@makia3]

They’re so boring lol

[@Talkative_Introvert123]

This video has really turned me around. the clarification on some points from the original really helped and im glad I stuck it out. I love elden ring and it was my first souls game but after playing 1 and 3, i wish elden ring was linear like them. Open worlds have made the course and it's time for them to either be filled up or leave. Thanks for the video and I wish you the best in the future.

[@tacticalcircumvention2889]

45:00 Is it that petty of a critique to ask you to talk clearly and honesty? When yoi say your only reward is a cookbook, would it really mess up the pacing that bad to say, "The only item reward you get is a cookbook and access to an npc for one of the big quests in the game?" Like i understand, you meant it an an add on to the point about shit rewards, but that is still a diahonest. How is the boredom arguemnt used against a critique about not fully explaining something? From a youtuber that does hour long videos regularly. Domt pretend to be mauler and act like youve purposefully trimmed the excess fat off of a huge project. If you had another example, use it instead of the putresent knight one cause this is my first time hearing about it and right pff the bat its stupid.

[@tacticalcircumvention2889]

Like real quick, in this video right here where you introduced this stupid point in the first place, domt use boredom as an excuse. Say you don't count the bastard as a reward, but don't fucking use boredom as an excuse to leave out info dude. That's my issue.

[@Stinkymoe]

Too long please summarise

[@superlucci]

But cookbooks are the main reward for exploration in this game. Its a meme at this point. The open world exploration is absolute dog shit. Half the map could be removed and nothing of value would be lost. People praising Miyazaki for making a big map than expected, but that in turn was just filled with empty space, just for you to find the 100th shitty cookbook that nobody cares about is insulting. Also none of these quests are interesting the fuck you talking about? There was nothing interesting about dying 4 times just to hear St Trina tell you to kill a boss you were going to do so anyway. You know what would've made that interesting? If you actually had a choice.

[@Stinkymoe]

@@superlucci I still have no idea what cookbooks do

[@Stinkymoe]

@@superlucci the quests in er are too complicated because of it being open world and me not caring for the characters ,ds1 quests were simpler and better . Nothing can beat soliars quest

[@thehoudinimaster7723]

Shadow of the Erdtree and Tears of the Kingdom are proof that the industry should move past open world games

[@Jose_Ruiz932]

Sad news is that the director for Zelda see BotW/ToTK as objectively better than previous Zelda games and designing any game similar to those is creating a worse game

[@wiliex0687]

why are you playing the game? just play something else

[@justinthomas318]

The problem isn't them being open world, it's that they are just too big. Shrinking them down 50% or so with a greater focus on unique gameplay would make all the difference.

[@austin0_bandit05]

@@Jose_Ruiz932 None of the ways TotK or BotW are better are due to the nature of the open world. Also, I don't believe they are better or at the very least I dont thinl there's a strong enough case you could make that would remove all doubt

[@scarsch1286]

@@justinthomas318Real, open world games should take after their title more, the openness should comes before the world.

[@dvd9578]

I don't agree with the rewards section. You are basically saying that you only care for the rewards and not for the experience the catacombs/dungeons the game can provide. So would a bad dungeon be converted into a good one if they gave you 10 fragments at the end? (If that's the case then Gaius is the best boss of the game). Because in my opinion the catacombs in the DLC were a huge improvement from the base game and them not having fragments at the end of them doesn't automatically turn them into boring for me.

[@Stinkymoe]

Didn’t play dlc but main game dungeon are horrible, horrid ,disgusting, boring, dumb and Aids

[@Messmer-The-Impaler-n8i]

​@@Stinkymoe ok main game catacombs are mot that bad they are just as mid as mid can be its so completely inoffensive while absolutely not memorable. I wouldnt categorize them as horrid, its just so goddamn mid.

[@Eldenpro469]

Well I agree with you that you should experience all of the dlc on your first time through, there’s still the factor of replay ability. I liked experiencing the catacombs and all the other stuff about it but after that I’m not gonna do the catacombs every time I go to ng+. He’s right in that many of the main fights should have honestly given you fragments since boss fights are kinda how you progress and their really good so yeah.

[@nadaburner]

@@Stinkymoe The base game catacombs and caves had an issue of being repetitive which is a valid criticism. Most reused the same copy and pasted layouts and segments. The way you worded your complaint makes me not want to take your opinion seriously since it doesn't seem genuine and lacks context. Fromsoft actually listened and handmade all the dlc caves and catacombs so they offer more unique experiences. Some don't require boss kills to complete either unlike all the base game ones.

[@feebleking21]

You are correct that making the mini dungeons more rewarding would not make the content good for me. It would only be what I see as accomplishing the bare minimum. To make exploration good I would need the map to be smaller, the mini dungeon bosses to be more interesting, and for those mini dungeons to give substantial rewards for all builds. I would enjoy the game a good bit more if they patched bosses to drop scadutree fragments, but it's only one step. The experience of running around empty fields finding reskinned overworld bosses from the base game needs to go as well (in my opinion). And no, I do not think Gaius is the best boss in the game, although I do think he is one of the only ones that accomplishes the bare minimum of having good extrinsic rewards for all builds. That alone doesn't make him better than Messmer, but I also think Messmer would be even better if I got 2 scadutree fragments for beating him.

[@soullordbr6183]

Feeble clout chaser is back. I can't believe you already open the video with such a bad take. Your Breath of the Wild example is so stupid. Yes, if the weapons in Breath of the Wild did not break and were different and unique to one another i would do every single shrine i found (unlike what i did when i played, because the rewards were boring and predictable). I would not care about searching where to get the "Only important items" because nobody needs their hearts and stamina maxed in order to enjoy and beat the game, A lot of people want to get fun new option to use in combat and find that to be much more rewarding than a boring stat upgrade. Why can't you get that through your head? All the weapons are the same if you ignore Weight, Moveset, Looks, Damage, Damage Type, Posture damage, Speed, Range and unique ashes of war. So basically, if you ignore everything and boil down to the most basic point of comparison they are the same? That is so dishonest, Loopine already called you out for this in his reaction to your previous video.

[@robertosalvattori7069]

I don't think he is dishonest on purpose he is just really stubborn and often perceives his feelings as facts. Pretty similar to Joseph Anderson, which is funny considering how he was the inspiration for this channel

[@kelemaney753]

@@robertosalvattori7069 I feel like you could say the same for like 90% of the critiques ive seen on this game

[@superlucci]

Are you dumb? His BOTW example was exactly on point. The reason people do the shrines is so they can get the Spirit Containers to increase their stamina and hearts. If the only thing they offered were some shitty breakable weapon nobody would want to do them. Acting like people dont care about Spirit Containers because you dont need max of them is absolutely troglodyte thinking. Who gives a shit if all the weapons have those slight differences? You arent going to be majorly changing the way you approach a boss. Who cares if some weapon has a cool weaponart, when the punish window is so small you wont be able to use it without getting hit as a result. Not to mention its generally better to just get more hits in with regular attacks then trying to do something fancy. Lol at posture damage when you cant even see the posture bar, which From purpsefully hides for some strange reason. Why are Fromsoft fanboys so purposefully obtuse?

[@robertosalvattori7069]

@@torchlight3173 It's different. "This experience would suck and be absolutely unacceptable in any open world game, yet is literally the framework Shadow of the Erdtree is built around" This is an objective statement. To whom exactly this would be unnaceptable? Certainly not for me, but he says it as is it is an absolute truth that we all agree upon instead od framing it as his opinion. It would be the same as your friend, while having zero experience when it comes to how you craft an instrument to say that Guitar is badly made, that is a poor product and that it should be considered bad by any musician worth their salt.

[@robertosalvattori7069]

@@torchlight3173 That is not how it works, specially on the internet, I someone presents what they are saying as fact, they will be callet out on it. Rightfully so. This also shows a lack of writing skills had he said something on the effect of "I don't understand why people like this world design so much, i found it to be extremely boring" we would not be having this conversation as nobody would have a problem with that, I understand he mentions later in the video that these are all his opinions, but this is simply not good enough, If someone is new to this channel and misses this video for whatever reason, they wil not have this information and even after stating something like that you need to make sure you understand what you are saying to your audience at every moment. This is the same thing that happened with Joseph Anderson and his "subjectivity is implied video". It is the creator's job to clarify and distinguish their opinions from fact, not up to the audience to keep guessing for them

[@echo1180]

I love Fromsoftware, and I think their games are great, but boy do I hate how a lot of people just can’t fathom that people have valid criticisms for the games. Especially Elden Ring and even more especially its DLC.

[@skippertheeyechild6621]

Weird cultish behaviour seems to be becoming more common these days.

[@chopsandtoots]

The fromsoft community has some really great people but being involved in various groups across the internet has shown me how single-minded and toxic the fanbase can be at times, especially with how big it's gotten due to Elden Ring. I can tell a lot of the comments here didn't finish the video (which he ironically mentions). I will never understand how weird people get when it comes to this game and criticism against it.

[@travisbickle3835]

yeahhh just call the fanbase toxic when they show your argument is flawed and you need to approach the game with a different mindset because it just doesn't want you to approach it exactly like you did to other games of the same creator. Exact same thing happened with Sekiro, everybody cried ''too hard'' without ever engaging with the game's mechanics but it's just the greatest combat game of all time. we can't accept every argument because they're an opinion. some opinions are wrong.

[@chopsandtoots]

@@travisbickle3835 again, proving my point. Imagine getting offended by a youtuber's opinion of a game or the addressing the toxic part of the fanbase. If you're not one of them, then why comment or become offended? Form glazers needs to stop seeing every single criticism as a "bad opinion" (and sidepoint, any time you spend money on *anything* you are entitled to an opinion) even if you don't agree with it. Just click off the video and move on. I cannot understand people who actively watch and engage with things they disagree with and then write up nasty comments or get into it with other comments. I didn't like the DLC, but I'm not going to every video that made a good review of it telling them they're wrong and writing novels as to why. I just don't watch them. People need to calm down 99% of the time and stop taking themselves so seriously.

[@athelsteadproductions6931]

I don’t believe every game should be for everyone; this DLC is my favorite content in my favorite game. And I’m struggling to put into words why my experience playing this DLC is the most enjoyable experience I’ve had playing a video game in a very long time. I would say this is without any doubt the most beautiful game I’ve ever played. The experience of playing this game was unlike any other. And I’m really sorry you couldn’t experience it the way I did. I don’t think your takes are invalid or wrong it’s just sad to see you didn’t enjoy it the way I did it. I will say however, I think you are absolutely wrong when it comes to to the bosses not being sufficiently different from previous games. I would argue that this game and its dlc were from software at its peak creativity. If it’s not your style that’s fine. I even agree with some of your points in this and the last video… but I just don’t understand how you could naturally come to the conclusion that you did, “regarding the bosses” if not promoted by the backlash of the last video.

[@Garl_Vinland]

Shadowtree blessings suck as a reward because it doesn’t actually affect your build. You lose it when you go to the base game, Newgame+ co-op, invasions, or Arena, so *it isn’t actually part of your build.* They don’t feel good to collect because it’s basically artificially lowering the difficulty of the DLC itself, not actually reinforcing your build. There is no pleasure in one shotting shadow villagers in grave site plain when you know full well the damage you are doing doesn’t carry over anywhere else

[@ionlyfwthraxx]

dude no shit it wont transfer to the base game why tf would they, also your character keeps the shadow blessing level every time u start a new game, so you just need to get the shadow blessing to lv 20 once. which you can do over multiple playthroughs if you feel like it. you can also just, not fucking get them if you hate them that badly since "they dont affect your build"

[@knivy6160]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you do keep blessing level in ng+. Like, it's attached to your character, if that makes sense.

[@Garl_Vinland]

@@knivy6160 I'm pretty sure you don't, and even if you do, it wouldn't even matter when it comes to the extra NG+ cycle when it comes to beating Consort Radahn. OP is also aluding to it basically just being the memory and prayer bead system in Sekiro. very boring damage and reduction increases across the board, somehow trumps the ability to alter your playstyle? That's crazy. People who like Sekiro probably also ignored 99% of the different combat arts in that game and just got by with deflecting and Ichimonji double. This is a roll-playing game, not a watered down Ninja Gaiden.

[@user-pn4px5lr8w]

​@@Garl_Vinland you do keep it, having gone into a new cycle on a few characters after beating the dlc on them. They still matter for that last bit of the DLC. The fragment system is pretty hamfisted, though, and I felt it could have been done more thoughtfully.

[@GooLaGoob]

I still do think the exploration in this dlc is the worst in the entire series for me

[@soulsbonder]

A half open world experience would been better it should been shorter but full of peak and better stuff we needed Godwyn

[@DeariesRobinson]

Bro honestly I was gonna say nobody cares but u made good points fuckkk those delayed ass attacks

[@anonymousperson8903]

It's never your fault is it? It's always the community being toxic and misunderstanding your perfectly delivered thoughts (lol), or it's the game 'not teaching you well enough.' Take some responsibility.

[@legend0fjulle866]

Yeah, as a guy who played most of the game once and didn't even finish it before the DLC because I didn't like the main game that much, I don't understand how people hate the dlc so much. It's not overly difficult, the rewards aren't that horrible etc. It took me like 10-20 attempts against most remembrances with a +10/+25 weapon with whatever I was using at that point starting the dlc at lvl 139 and basically all of them were fun. No buffs or no summons were needed either.

[@tuwumuch]

I agree. it felt hollow, not a satisfying ending like ds3, and it just felt like more Elden ring.

[@MoronicRoc]

1:43 I heavily disagree for one reason: Mandatory exploration. Instead of going to dungeons because you like the encounters or want to naturally explore the world, you're forced to go to every dungeon to stand a chance against bosses. It's the same problem I had with Sekiro's health system, but it would be far worse in this case because it's whole dungeons instead of minibosses.

[@valkeitos]

That's a lie. I explore maybe 2 or 3 dungeons in SOTE, one just so i can get to Midra. Otherwise you don't need to explore the dungeons to be powerful enough to fight the bosses.

[@MoronicRoc]

@@valkeitos That's exactly the point. When I was talking about being forced about going to every dungeon, I meant in a hypothetical scenario where there was a scadutree fragment behind almost every dungeon, resulting in the game being scaled around this.

[@TitanfallEnjoyer]

Mmmm.... It's almost as if maybe, just MAYBE, the dlc did NOT have to be an open world and a limgrave size dlc would've been better... Mmmmm...

[@levicollier2959]

The only thing I thought was disappointing was the southern part of the map (not including the abyssal woods and jagged peak), especially the finger ruins, like what was all that empty space doing there, but other than that this dlc was peak, 10/10, definitely should be a GOTY nomination

[@drxmurr]

Feeble king. Sorry to say this but stick to copying Joseph Anderson’s opinions. I cant even count the amount of contradictions u made. Peace

[@farkus04]

Long time fan of From Software here. I had a lot of similar criticisms of the DLC, and I appreciate you putting a voice to them. I love FromSoft and the games they produce, but I feel like this DLC is steering the company's design philosophy in a direction that I don't like, so I appreciate the criticism. I feel like Shadow of the Erdtree is worth complaining about because I know FromSoft is very talented, and I know they can make excellent games. They are a company worth holding to a higher standard and therefore we shouldn't just accept all FromSoft games because of the company's pedigree.

[@nolanwinterburn194]

the depth that people talking about with these games comes in the form of jumping and ashes of war that you can dodge attacks with, there is so much more variety in how you fight bosses because of that, aside from radahn who is just dodge left simulator. the problem is that you guys just dont like roll dodge bosses anymore thats it, Elden ring has the mechanics that allow for new ways to dodge attacks. if you dont like it that sucks i guess

[@MrFRNTIK]

This. They want a simpler game like Dark Souls, but they don't wanna admit it. I love the challenge of ER bosses because once you figure them out its super fun. I didnt have a lot of fun with Dark Soul 3 when i first played it until i figured out dodge rolling.

[@MrFRNTIK]

@@torchlight3173 because it isn't dark souls anymore. And they are totally fair. You can dodge/block/counter every attack in numerous ways. I'm not a masochist either. The game isn't that hard to figure out. Some bosses frustrate me but just like dark souls it's my fault every time. Well, except for when my controller decides to not register a button press. That is annoying and can piss me off. I just think it's funny that you and people like you act like dark souls wasn't a struggle back in the day when people weren't use to that type of gameplay. Now that it's evolved, people who were use to dark souls can't seem to grasp the concept of jumping over horizontal swipes and position based attacks.

[@MrFRNTIK]

@@torchlight3173 bosses never had stamina to begin with. They were just slower. Manus is more bullshit than any boss from Elden Ring. If anyone is breaking the rules of the game it's that dude. You're playing Elden Ring with a Dark Souls mindset. Not every attack combo ends with a big opening to punish. Instead there are combos with openings in the middle of them where you can crouch poke or maybe even jump attack. Use a certain ash of war even. Lions claw is great for punishing horizontal attacks. It's a much more active and aggressive game. If you're playing passively like it's Dark Souls then ya, you're probably gonna struggle because you're too scared of the boss to get in there and counter their moves with your own moves. We really need more videos going in depth on the many combat options Elden Ring provides because it seems like most of the haters just don't get the game. They're hung up on the past even though they don't wanna admit it. You don't gotta like the game. I just think it's dumb that we can't even enjoy it without people calling it "bad design". Bad for you maybe, but it's such a subjective statement. Like Sekiro is "bad" if all I ever do is try to dodge attacks and never Parry or use prosthetics. Any game is bad if I don't actually engage with the mechanics.

[@MrFRNTIK]

@@torchlight3173 I couldn't care less about what feeble king thinks of me. I can counter every point he makes and he would still be unhappy with the gameplay. Like just don't play Elden ring. He already didn't like the base game. Idk why he thought the dlc would change the rules of the game. I'm gonna keep clowning on people who say it's unfair. My recent playthrough has opened my eyes to even more flaws in feeble king's critiques. If anyone is being disingenuous, like you suggested I was, it's him. My favorite critique is "not every reward from a boss is usable with every build therefore they're bad rewards" 😂 like bro it's an RPG. Of course you can't use EVERYTHING. Don't give up hope though. Fromsoft will probably make another linear metroidvania dungeon crawler like dark souls again.

[@zaynthemane]

@@torchlight3173I would argue it’s you guys that can’t see the forest for but trees. You think every game has to resemble Dark Souls 1 in every way to be good. You’re blinded by romanticism of the past. Dark Souls 1 is the same game where you could be cursed while fighting Seath and then have to go through the Duke’s Archives with half of your health. It’s the same game that contains an unfinished location with arguably the single worst boss From has ever created, and also littered with reskinned enemies. The game had its flaws and occasional moments that were arguably unfairer than anything in Elden Ring. It’s just that people romanticize the past and don’t like change. 5 years from now, people will likely be saying the same thing about whatever new game FS is developing. And I say this all as someone who absolutely adores DS1 as it was my very first Souls game.

[@Kurai_69420]

NGL, "Fromsoft made the camera bad on purpose" is definitely one of the takes of all time. Other than that I agree or at least understand most of your other takes. There's an atmosphere of toxic positivity with Elden Ring that's never been seen in this series where shit that would get lambasted in the past is just accepted. Dark Souls 2 was memed to death for being artificially difficult, no one defends Lud and Zallen or the run back to them, but because the game is named Elden Ring the bosses are just allowed to have dogshit telegraphs that intentionally mislead the player and have to be learned through rote memorization like I'm back in school and we're not allowed to complain about it.

[@anonymousperson8903]

"Elden Ring the bosses are just allowed to have dogshit telegraphs that intentionally mislead the player and have to be learned through rote memorization like I'm back in school and we're not allowed to complain about it." Lots of people like this design dude.

[@siddh2658]

I can understand your critque about the base game but the dlc is an extension of the base game so expecting gameplay mechanics that you didn't like to change is pretty optimistic

[@vadandrumist1670]

Responding to 6:11 "I am not saying Fromsoft games should have Devil May Cry combo lists. These are different types of games with different goals." Now, for every game *but* Elden Ring and maybe Sekiro, I will agree wholeheartedly. But, as you say at the end, we've gone full theme-park. The bosses and many basic enemies are more action-packed than ever before, and the player is given a plethora of spectacular moves which are sadly mostly useless against anything they cannot poise-break. While I would agree that going DMC would be losing the last of the heart of the Souls series, at this point how much remains to be lost by the change? Having the movesets and gameplay to match the enemies could compliment their ridiculous combos by allowing the player to more frequently perform their own.

[@feebleking21]

I've thought while playing DMC 5 that I might enjoy Elden Ring bosses a lot more if I had Dante's anime-like abilities. Souls games have gone so far in the direction of action combat that it's not like they'd be losing much if they went all out.

[@nigcholasgarcia1804]

Real

[@travisbickle3835]

@@feebleking21 you do have that tho. just look at the messmer's spear

[@vadandrumist1670]

@@travisbickle3835 You have some DMC ability, but none of the convenience. Just try using Messmer's Spear's Ash of War against Messmer and see how many situations it *doesn't* work.

[@christiankettlewell]

Eileen *is* saying "Gas-coin". She has a mega accent. Hence, the "Hoonter" running joke. You're just mishearing it, Big Feebs. 47:33

[@feebleking21]

Stop the gaslighting this is getting crazy

[@christiankettlewell]

@@feebleking21 lol I'm begging you to listen closer.

[@lustre7]

yes, gascoin is the english pronounciation. idk how yanks pronounce it tho

[@ImJustIgor]

​@@feebleking21Eileen definitely pronounces it as "Gas-coin", listen to it a bit closer. It may appear to sound different due to her accent. No one's gaslighting you lol

[@neverwraith8774]

Why did you spend so much time responding to Joseph Anderson's first video? It is much older. Many people agree it is a poor review, and personally, I felt that his DLC review was much better and more relevant.

[@ta_________________________4_K]

What i love about geometry dash is everyone is playing the same game. If you beat Clutterfunk, you beat the same Clutterfunk everyone else did. Theres no builds, cheese, gimmicks. Fromsoftware games are praised for the satisfaction of winning. When you defeat a rememberance boss in 3 attempts, thats not satisfying, thats dissapointing.

[@guswautier9410]

Dang you used the example of the spirit orbs (Heart pieces) Being put around the open world as a bad idea in botw when that is exactly what most people are asking nintendo to do by making it like the older zeldas.

[@eldritchtoilets210]

I hope these games will go back to a more Metroid-Vania style of world design, open-world makes it magical the first playthough but holy shit it damages replayability just as much imo

[@MichaelStaiger]

I think my biggest problem is now the game is simply too big. It feels like even if you know what you’re doing, completing a single run imo just takes too long (particularly in an all remembrances run)

[@abyssoull]

I agree that it takes a decent amount of time, but I’ve gotten 3-4 DLC playthroughs done already while playing other competitive games and working full-time. That’s including the base game up to Mohg and Radahn as well. Once you know what you’re looking for on each run it becomes a pretty linear game, and that’s with me using unique builds for each playthrough.

[@stevemichael652]

Zelda community is pretty bad bro

[@KyngD469]

I really hope Matthew makes a video addressing SOTE and Elden Ring as a whole.

[@duckchen2676]

he's getting a reputation as a souls critic but i dont think he's made one since his demon souls video

[@jamesbarnett5157]

I want more of the feeling i got in dark souls 1. Slowly progressing through, wondering if im even going the right way and searching for a bonfire while getting lower and lower on heals and then feeling relief when you find some unexpected shortcut back to your bonfire. It almost felt like a survival horror game. Now i dont really feel the tension, you can pretty much always tell what the shortcuts are(and in elden ring they feel mostly pointless since you almost always spawn next to the boss room). This must be how the resident evil fans felt going from the og games to 4-6

[@xjtreex]

People hate opinions right now. When you say something they disagree with they'll go "Well that's just YOUR opinion!" and i'm like "uh, yeah, that's why i said it"

[@travisbickle3835]

true

[@RP-mp4ow]

Well that's just YOUR opinion!

[@upsideproductions2]

Fromsoft simps just want to believe that Elden ring is immune to criticism. There so delusional.

[@kapiton9909]

The final monologue about DS1 reached my soul... It's exactly what made me sad while playing elden ring Also that moistcritikal impression made me burst laughing, nicely done pal

[@mprice2009]

I dunno, it sounds like you just want to play a different game. It’s like being upset with a Mario game because you have to jump but you want another mechanic to do levels 🤷‍♀️

[@BigIsaac91]

Elden Ring, base and DLC, is simply too large for the amount of unique content it has to offer. Sorry, but I don't consider a fistful of runes an adquate reward for clearing my 20th catacomb when the main reward is another fucking cookbook or underpowered spirit ash.

[@nopupils261]

Ok so here is my comment, which you probably wont read but I don't care. I think that one of the main problems with the DLC is that people recommended an entry level of 150. This is insane and lessens the experience. I played through the DLC two times now, and entering it on my level 100 character felt so much more rewarding then on 150. Not only could I actually level up by killing bosses (shocker) but the levels actually felt like they mattered, since I hadn't hit all the softcaps for my build yet. This is also what keeps the DLC replayable to me, entering it at lower levels. For my first playthrough I have to disagree with the fact that the DLC doesn't feel magical. I think of all the things that it does, this is what it does best and in some cases maybe even better then the base game. Finding the abyssal woods, the hinterlands etc... were just such beautiful moments for me. I get the '...but actually' part, but actually: it really didn't bother me as much, although I get it. I just found that all of these places had a very magical 'aura', so to speak. The Hinterlands having shaman village, the abyssal woods heaving the aging untouchables (whose design I just adore) and charons hidden grave just looking great, even though I can understand if that's not enough for you. What I just don't understand is the point where you go: "Hey, it's another fort! They've already done this before!" Especially with stuff like stone coffin fissure. Yes, it's ANOTHER cave, but its idea and concept is super unique. Ancient coffins of forgotten giants leak putrescense, from which forms a sentient being, by the power of saint Trina. I don't understand your point here. What a cool idea! Castle Ensis had a very unique color scheme, but I get if it didn't do enough to differentiate itself for you, but shadow keep?! Shadow keeps laboratory looks unlike anything from software has ever done. The way you move across the giant corpses of horned abominations, only to end up in a ship-burial site, is so unique and memorable and awesome. Saying that stone coffin fissure is just another cave, or shadow keep is just another castle, is to me like saying: "Well, they kinda already did the castle thing with Boletaria, so Anor Londo seems pretty unnecessary at this point." I felt a lot while playing the DLC. Sad to hear that it left you feeling empty. I hope you enjoy whatever they make next. While not all that tired of 'dodge and hit', I would also prefer them trying something new and exciting like Sekiro or AC.

[@common_undead]

hard agree on the entering the dlc at lower than 150. I pretty much rushed to the dlc from a fresh character and got there at level 70, and I can't imagine a better way to go into it. Suddenly all those smithing stones and fresh weapons become very exciting to get. I think this was a rather unique issue with ER compared to the previous fromsoft dlcs however, since in like DS3 for example, even with the dlcs, you'd usually end up between levels 100-120 when you finish all of the content, and the multiplayer meta was 130-135. In ER you can easily hit level 180 by end game pre dlc if you are thoroughly exploring and not arbitrarily stopping to level, while the multiplayer meta is usually between 125-150 or 150-180, depending on if you're more of an invader or a coop-er. I think the 150 level recommendation was largely because the average player is around there when they beat the endgame, including Mogh, and that's where the jolly coop folks hang out a lot.

[@proudherouser4069]

the thing about vain elitists is that they are disingenuous hypocrites. the guys bashing you probably did the DLC with co-op and will never admit it.

[@petersvane-christiansen6587]

What the hell is this strawman argument?

[@Thanatos913]

"The Lost Soul Arts of Dark Souls" just might be the best written youtube video section I've ever seen. Amazing video. Although I still enjoy the dlc very much, I still agree with most of your criticisms. Keep up the good work

[@briquesbts]

SotE was the first piece of content that fromsoftware ever made that I didn't immediately began playing again after finishing it. And I never touched it again ever since I beat the final boss. As a big FS fan, that speaks volumes

[@nekrovulpes]

Meh. I liked this DLC, as with the base game. But I think it's more that a lot of people hold these games up as the best games ever made, and like... They're not, they never have been. Dark Souls had plenty of flaws and a lot of them have carried over throughout the entire series, all the way into Elden Ring. Personally Elden Ring was the first time I really loved one of these games, because it had much more to offer than the others. No game is perfect, it's just a question of whether the parts you enjoy outweigh the flaws.

[@TotalitarianDemocrat]

What are the best games ever made?

[@zaynthemane]

No game is the best game ever made by this logic. Not a single game is flawless.

[@isaiahwebb3743]

@@TotalitarianDemocratocarina of time, metal gear solid 3, and the Witcher 3

[@isaiahwebb3743]

⁠​⁠@@zaynthemane the way you’re misreading their comment implies that these games should be considered the best of all time. No game is flawless, AND, unrelated, none of the souls games should be considered any of the best games of all time (Sekiro should imo)

[@zaynthemane]

@@isaiahwebb3743 I’m just saying I disagree with the logic that a game having flaws makes them exempt from being considered one of the best games of all time. I don’t believe any game I’ve played in my life is flawless.

[@jimmyrustles358]

Your channel blew up because alot of people resonate with your opinions and your video quality. I despise ER yet I enjoyed hearing your defense video. Don't get too caught up in what people say in the comments.

[@guswautier9410]

Why do you need rewards for doing things? The whole game does not give you any reward in your life other then enjoyment from experiencing something so why does it matter if you get a numerical stat boost. You play the dungeon because you want to or you do not because you don't. The game is in that sense just as pointless as the dungeon because you gain nothing. This opinion is an odd one that you have.

[@guswautier9410]

@@torchlight3173 I agree I’m just saying a game does not need good rewards to be fun. It is unrelated to the quality of the game it is just a feature said game can have.

[@LadyMoonboy]

Completely agree with you. Most people don’t explore or fight bosses because they expect a reward at the end of it. They just want to fight a giant dragon or a half- centipede half-scorpion lady. The bosses themselves ARE the reward for exploring. That is why I play these games, to fight cool creatures and learn their movesets to perfection. The remembrance they drop is just a cherry on top for me.

[@anonymousperson8903]

Exactly.

[@Error-mn4el]

Elden Ring end game and DLC make me sad because its clear that Fromsoft games are no longer made for people like me, I dont enjoy bashing my head against a boss until i learn all the delayed unnaturally timed attacks, I dont enjoy bizarre boss mechanic gimmicks (special mention to Malenia hyper armor, just frustrating and could have been done better), I also dont enjoy the game expecting me to either use a bunch of OP stuff to overcome a boss or use exploits to "counter" special moves (again, Malenia xd) I prefer just 'legacy dungeons' being strung together, the open world in base Elden Ring was fun before the capital on the first playthrough, after the capital its ass, and subsequent playthroughs is just check list simulator which seems to be a big issue with the DLC too it sucks to feel that way but oh well, what can you do, definitely wont be blind buying their next game without looking into it and how similar it is to their current design philosophy

[@KNGDDDE]

I agree. Bayle was my fav, but I always enjoyed more consistent fights. Dragoslayer armor, list king, twin princes, especially pontiff. ER fights rarely felt like, fights. They were just combat tests. Do you kno this? Did you remember this timing? Betcha won't jump! Everything has answers but I swear it's grimy there's no consistent indicators for attack types. I always get hit by godfrey's stomps in phase 2. Idk why hitting the ground with his are and foot are different. Or why the attack you can jump over is the one that cracks the ground instead of a low Shockwave.

[@botondkunos1774]

The truth is that these bosses arent actually mechanicly more difficult than DS3 bosses, they just have an extra fluff of 15-30 extra deaths because they have new overly elaborate or fast attacks that you can only avoid after seeing them at least once.

[@abyssoull]

⁠​⁠@@KNGDDDE there are actually these things you can use that I found helped me a lot to read boss attacks without an indicator. I used my eyes to look at what the boss was doing and the bosses indicated what move they would do with their telegraphs. This is something that I use in every souls game, especially DS3 since the combat is similar to Elden Ring minus the advantage of being able to jump boss attacks.

[@KNGDDDE]

@@abyssoull wat does that have to do with my comment?

[@abyssoull]

@@KNGDDDE in the combat tests you can read the boss like I mentioned in order to dodge the attacks given the movement abilities granted to you. This includes rolling, back stepping, running, jumping, or running jumps. There are also ashes of war that can further improve movement abilities like bloodhound step or dash. These combat tests are not significantly different from those in DS3 other than extra movement being afforded to you and extensions to the boss. By both watching the boss and learning how to successfully dodge their attacks you can overcome the challenge presented to you by the game. You’ll find most of the time there are several ways to dodge/punish a majority of attacks as well, giving players additional combat freedom and variety with the 300+ weapons and builds to choose from. If you interact with the game like you’re playing Elden Ring and not DS3, you might find yourself getting roll-caught a lot less.