Fencing with Sharp Swords

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[@swordandshield]

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[@zenhydra]

Anecdotally, I used to spar unarmed with my friends as a teenager, we would get worked up and fight with a lot of intensity, but none of us ever got really injured until we introduced padded boxing gloves. The theoretical notion that we were safer, was enough to subconsciously give us permission to strike with too much force.

[@karinefonte516]

That indeed prives the very first problem to those who practice any martial art: control. If tou cannot control yourself you will not effectively control a weapon, any weapon.

[@zenhydra]

@@karinefonte516 The particular situation I shared was less about a lack of control, and more about the false sense of safety using protective gear like boxing gloves instilled in us. We previously had enough control to be able to spar each other without pads, and rarely did an injury come up, because we had each others safety in the forefront of our minds. Once protective gear was introduced, we immediately trusted in the padding's ability to mitigate harm, and because safety was no longer an ever-present concern, injuries happened with considerably more frequency (at least until we recognized what had happened and adjusted for it).

[@ayrnovem9028]

As Ramsey Dewey has stated several times, boxing gloves are not, contrary to their popular image, safety implements. They are weapons, in a way. They enable and encourage fighters to strike with more power and more frequently due to being less worried about injuring their hands. And they add more weight to the strike thus making it easier to cause things like concussion-related brain trauma.

[@smokerxluffy]

The first time I used a modern replica of a viking shield, I was super surprised with how versatile a binding tool it was. First chance I got, I "punched" into an incoming blow and got his sword stuck into the rim, then turned my wrist so the sword twisted out of his hand and disarmed him. Also I hadn't realized that about sword vs spear, but it makes perfect sense given apparent historical match ups.

[@swordandshield]

Excellent shield move. So you do Viking combat training with sharps occasionally?

[@Fields_gg]

I really appreciate your unique perspectives compared to other HEMA-related KZbin channels and your way of explaining concepts. Thank you for the content!

[@swordandshield]

You are welcome. Thanks for your appreciation.

[@1Aldreth]

The konservative approach to fencing is what turns me off of tournament fighting. As soon as you make a game out of fencing, where there is a winner and a loser instead of just you surviving, the contestants will be way to aggressive and take risks they would never take in a real situation. Obviously people want to win a the match and will therefor apply stratagies that work in that specific frame of reference. It just leaves the realm of historical single combat. I have nothing against tournaments in HEMA and it's probably the right direction if we want the hobby to grow, but many people don't realize what a big difference the right mindset makes. Especially those many people that complain about not beeing able to apply the techniques in tournament fighting. Ein weiteres schönes Video und eine Diskussion die leider viel zu selten geführt wird. Grüße aus Thüringen

[@swordandshield]

Just to make sure I understand you correctly: you are actually in favour of the conservative approach (meaning being cautious and concerned with establishing control first) as is advocated in the fechtbücher, and you find that this approach usually goes out the window in a competitive sports context, right? Yes, I fully agree. And this is true not only for most tournaments that I have seen or participated in, but also in many regular sparring sessions in salles all over the world. If one is interested in reconstructing historical swordsmanship by learning to apply historical technique in forms of free fencing (which are still simulations after all!), then bridging the gap between technical training and free play is the greatest challenge. That is true for all combat simulations in any martial arts, by the way.

[@1Aldreth]

@@swordandshield I may have not articulated myself well enough, but yes that is exactly what I meant. In the end we (as the "HEMA community") may have to differentiate and communicate the substantial difference between sport fencing and the historical martial approach more clearly. I see many people not realizing this difference.

[@swordandshield]

@@1Aldreth I agree. However, diverse sub-communities with different priorities is nothing new. HEMA is no exception in this regard.

[@1Aldreth]

@@swordandshield And that is a good thing in my opinion. Way more people are interested in the sports aspect of HEMA then the actual historical reconstruction. If we can spark somebodies interest for the historical reconstruction through sport fencing then everybody wins. Unfortunately I have heard many people say that the single goal of practicing HEMA is to participate in tournaments. And that is just simply false.

[@smokerxluffy]

You should do both. A lot of my biggest realizations in terms of where I should focus on training further come from tournaments. Things like how my footwork isn't quite up to par, or how I can't chase someone down if they're just that much better at moving, thus they can constantly harass and press me freely. So yes, it does shift the fencing into a different direction, but it also gives you insights you can't gain without a proper stress test.

[@michaeljay4816]

This is a gem of a video about a fascinated and far too under-discussed topic. Thank you!

[@urbangladiator3096]

Everyone with two sharp knifes at home can get a feel for the sensation of two sharp swords.

[@kencoffman7145]

I truly appreciate all of your discussions!! The application of live weapons is essential to completley understanding how it is to be used and the repercussions of improper defense. Thank you so much for your work

[@swordandshield]

My pleasure. Thanks for your interest.

[@peterspatling3151]

The part about not using safety equipment surprised me. But I got to say that I made the same experience when it comes to riding (horses obviously). People assume they are safe since they wear a helmet. Then they fall off. Weird, the ones not wearing helmets don't fall off all the time. Same concept as you have described. Nice video btw. (as always)

[@swordandshield]

Interesting analogy.

[@andrewk.5575]

I cannot say that I really know all of that much about sharps vs. blunts in Medieval Europe, but I can give examples of both being used in other regions and time periods. I once heard a couple of my instructors reminiscing about there experiences in Japanese kenjutsu and how after they reached a certain level they were expected to be able and willing to fence safely not with wooden bokken, but with shaving-sharp katanas, mostly their conversation revolved around instances where they messed up and got cut. Similarly, on the Sanatan Shastar Vidya KZbin channel their is a video (I am afraid I cannot remember which one) where the Guru mentions that all of the swords they are using for demonstration in the video are sharp antiques (there are very few replica Indian swords out there) and that wooden weapons are only used for training beginners. Finally, in my own art of classical fencing I can say that while traditionally foils were equipped with leather buttons on the point and sabers were blunted, épées, even in practice, are semi-sharp. Obviously, fencing with a needle-pointed épée du combat would be way too dangerous (the term "Lungenfuscher" springs to mind), but fencing masters still wanted to emphasis that it was a serious dueling weapon not a training tool like the foil, so they created special training points called the "tintack" and the "point d'arret." The tintack is first mentioned as far back as 1707 in a book by Sir William Hope and basically consists of a one inch piece of sharpened metal tied to the end of a nail-tipped blade, with the intention that the cord holding the tintack in place will prevent the weapon penetrating deep enough to do serious harm. The point d'arret was developed later and is slightly less painful in that it consists of not one but three sharp points that are designed to stick in a fencing jacket to simulate the sensation of a fine point hitting and sinking into the target.

[@zenhydra]

I won't speak to anyone's personal values, but (with reasonable safety precautions taken) I think that consenting adults should be allowed to engage in fencing where the likelihood of cool facial scarring is less than zero.

[@Lederfisken]

Negative likelihood? bruah...

[@zenhydra]

@@Lederfisken Lol. Nice catch. I intended to say, "a non-zero percent chance of cool facial scarring."

[@KainusGulch]

Spears keep sounding more and more useful. Great stuff.

[@FedericoMalagutti]

Very cool video Roland! Thank you for sharing it!

[@swordandshield]

You are most welcome. I am delighted by your appreciation, my friend.

[@aryafeydakin]

Always asked myself this question : why would people put so much time and effort into a weapon that a mere fire hardened pointy stick could easily void ? And the sword having so much reputation everywhere you look ? I don't recall the Bible talking about spear so much, nor talking about the "spear" of the spirit, but of the sword. KZbinrs have collectively moved the sword from grade A weapon to secondary weapon to even the "religious purpose" wastebasket diagnosis of archeology. That was kind of extremely suspect from the very start.

[@swordandshield]

I have always felt the same.

[@silver_tongue9644]

Well if u have a good shield then a short sword is very very killy against basically all other infantry But then that setup leaves u very venerable to cavalry Where u preferably want a spear Or a longer sword

[@CDKohmy]

I agree, sharps should at least occasionally be used to remind fencers of artifacts introduced by blunts even if one's fencing system tries to avoid binds such as in English longsword and Swetnam's rapier. Controversially, I also support the use of thinner reenactment blunts (as long as they are still safely flexible in the thrust) because they bind better than something like feders and foils (used as a catch-all term here, not just smallswords). Also, I'm surprised how much steel bucklers bind to points as I tested it with my buckler and a dagger as wood makes more sense.

[@TwentythreePER]

Great points here, in my opinion.

[@danielschwarze6216]

Thanks for this video! I comepletly agree, the more protective equipment People wear, the less caution they excert. Nevertheless I thought about a good simulation for the properties of sharp blades, maybe some sort of rubber lining?

[@zenhydra]

I'm curious about whether langets on a polearm might have played a role in this. My sword sharps freely slide off of the langets on my poleaxes. The one which has a bowl guard at the terminus of the langets tends to channel the sword edges away.

[@swordandshield]

Makes sense to me.

[@seanwauters8556]

Thank you for sharing.

[@swordandshield]

You are welcome.

[@GerroLachman]

Danke!

[@swordandshield]

Bittesehr, gern geschehen.

[@Jugger_Coach]

Regarding your recommended testing "shield vs. sharp weapons" videos, I often find it hard to really draw a conclusion from these tests. The first variable is how historically correct the shields (and weapons) are actually crafted. Using another type of wood or even glue might have quite an impact on test results. As a second variable, the quality of shields and weapons varies greatly even within a narrow time frame or era. So while we often have a more or less standard shape, the craftsmanship and quality of materials should vary just as much (this should be less likely for highly standartised armies like those of the Romans in certain eras, of course). What it does certainly offer, though, is a general idea -- which is already a great thing. And it offers some insight how certain effects could have been used in a fight, like when a sword gets hooked up in a shield. Thanks and I am looking forward to more!

[@merryman9423]

Hi Roland how are you doing? What wood you recommend for build practice swords? I'm assuming it has to be a very hard wood, is that correct? Awesome video as always, greetings from Brazil 🇧🇷

[@swordandshield]

If you know how to fence, even simple willow sticks can be quite useful. I use them all the time, and harvest new ones in fall each year. As for wooden swords, I recommend asking those who make or use them on a regular basis. I am sure they know more than I do in this respect. Greetings from Germany.

[@merryman9423]

@@swordandshield thanks for the info sir, I'll check it out - all the best for you and Dimicator staff and students

[@Ramiiam]

I would totally practice this way if I were a seventeenth century man at arms.

[@harmoniaartificiosa]

Very interesting and informative presentation! Especially the psychological aspect of beeing faced with a sharp point or edge puts the sources into perspective. I can really understand the choice to do these sparring sessions without protective gear. Movement restriction may be a risk in it self. I do have a question, however, regarding your footwear. What do you use? What kind if sole specifically? That hardwood floor seems like it could be a bit slippery. My greatest fear when holding or handling sharp weapons, of any kind, is to slip or to loose my footing otherwise.

[@swordandshield]

I usually train barefoot, or occasionally in period turn shoes. I avoid modern trainers or sneakers. I find them limiting when it comes to sensing the ground. Not much of a problem when training in a modern gym or salle. However, I have fenced on wet morning grass in turn shoes using sharps. It was slippery and informs the way you step. These days, we use a back foot weighted posture, with the front foot probing the ground before committing to shifting weight (this also has a tactical aspect, of course).

[@harmoniaartificiosa]

Again, very interesting! And thank you for the quick reply.

[@Narguhl]

Hi Future-Narguhl, When you come back here to link this video you will need time stamp 13:00 to refere to the sharp sword vs spear sparring. your loving Past-Narguhl

[@alfonsmuller2318]

A sharp sword definitely makes you more cautious, not only because you don't want to get hurt, but also because you don't want to injure your training partner. Just like you can't learn boxing by slowing down the action, I don't think you can get the full picture without going full speed and quite frankly I don't think you can get it without someone having the intention to harm you. Fortunately no one ever attacked me with a sword, so I think I'm still lacking. Just a thing you have to keep in mind.

[@aceofr3ap3r21]

Ein hallo zurück noble one 😆😉

[@leonardomarquesbellini]

Hey Roland, what do you think about the homlganghamburg guys that did (still do?) hard sparring with sharps? The videos give off mostly a youth carelessness vibe to me but it's still very interesting to see how the fighter's mindset changes when they can easily get hurt and how that affects the way they fight, even though the guys seem not very skilled for the most part.

[@swordandshield]

For me watching fail videos is a waste of time.

[@silver_tongue9644]

Those guys are fucking crazy! Fighting with sharp arming swords!! They did start with rapiers though, which is a lot safer I want a go lol

[@swordandshield]

Read Guy Windsor's take on training with sharps here: chivalricfighting.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/why-you-should-train-with-sharp-swords-and-how-to-go-about-it-without-killing-anyone/

[@Pilafcg]

you did not say the results of the sharp vs spear bouts

[@oscargordon5851]

i realize I'm quite off topic but does anybody know a good site to stream newly released tv shows online ?

[@alonzojericho2863]

@Oscar Gordon i watch on FlixZone. You can find it by googling =)

[@moisesalec4604]

@Alonzo Jericho Yup, have been using flixzone for years myself :)

[@adenshane8265]

@Alonzo Jericho thanks, I went there and it seems to work =) I appreciate it !

[@Boggsy.]

I know that there are sharp-simulators that seek to emulate the “stickiness” in the bind, but I have to ask: Has anyone ever tried just putting double-sided sticky tape along the edges of a more finely edged ‘blunt’? Not a feder, one with more sword-like geometry. I imagine that you would need to reapply often, but in limited training (depending on width and adhesion of the tape) it might provide somewhat unique sharp-emulation.

[@swordandshield]

Yes, this was indeed one of the methods used first, even before the toothed sharp simulators came out.

[@breaden4381]

I tried a very thin strip of velcro. Way too sticky when it shouldn’t have been.

[@leonardomarquesbellini]

Sounds like it could end up making it harder to disengage than it should've be

[@swordandshield]

@@leonardomarquesbellini that is indeed the main problem with all sharp simulators that I have tested, including the toothed ones. Slightly worn out adhesive tape was actually best, for a short time at least, before it becomes completely useless.

[@atrior7290]

What if he'd use his spear as a quaterstaff ? I love using both spear and quaterstaff techniques with my hewing spear but it gets dangerous really quickly because quaterstaffs quickly attain bone breaking velocities, even full hema gear isn't safe enough... and with Meyer's one handed quaterstaff's strikes you can't stop mid-strike

[@martinv.b.3415]

Using sharps for cutting as part of regular training is even more benificial for safety - it teaches how less force is needed to really do harm to an opponent. The few times I tryed fencing with sharps the benefit compared to blunts where not so significant to justify the possible damage to my more expensive blades to do it on regular bases...

[@swordandshield]

Cutting practice is certainly an eye opener.

[@martinv.b.3415]

@@swordandshield in our vlub, we think it's so important, all of our beginners have to join a seminsr during regular training...

[@HashKey64]

Training with sharps or blunts? My guess is that swords where mostly used by militia/military as a secondary weapon, self-defence and for competitions/non-lethal duels. People walking around doing one on one fights until death must have been rare. Learning to fight in the military put emphasis teamwork and discipline. They needed other skills than what they could learn from the difference of exercising with sharps or blunts. About self-defence. Most of the time you will probably be jumped which does not give you much time to turn it into a proper sword fight. If you survive the aggressor's first move it might as well end up in a wrestling bout. And lastly. My guess is that competitions was a popular historical activity. Showing your skill with the blade could bring great opportunity. I'm thinking that duels to the first blood might be the only situation you could have use for training with sharps as you are not meant to kill your opponent - only to try to out-maneuver the adversary until he will cut you or you will cut him. Both military use and self-defence need simple and forceful moves because they are in a time-critical, high stress situation with lots of moving bits and pieces. [edit: corrected my language a bit]

[@swordandshield]

What period and region are you talking about, and what are your sources?

[@HashKey64]

@@swordandshield I place myself late in the medieval time period and in Europe also. I'm absolutely no scholar and I respect your knowledge in the subject. I'm mainly into Leküchner's Messer and have read up on stuff in- and around that time period/area. I'm sounding self-assured in my original post just to provoke (a tiny bit). For research I'm totally agree about using sharp swords (your stated reasons). I'm a bit sceptical about regularly do fencing training/sparring with sharps (unless it is also for research). I do not see the point.

[@KnightlyNerd]

Was the spear sharp as well? Blood and Iron HEMA have a video where they use sharp swords on a buckler and show that the point also sticks to the buckler and can be manipulated (shown here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aXfJnnWDlpJke7M ) I wonder if the spear could be manipulated in a similar way.

[@swordandshield]

No, in our experiment, the spear was blunt, so that Mikkel did not have to hold back when attacking. And, yes, spears can get caught in shield boards. This could be used by either party, depending on shield type, situation and awareness.

[@PJDAltamirus0425]

John Wagner thinks the highland targe was leather covered instead of steel like a rotella so spears would get stuck and they could bind or used their broadswords to break shafts.

[@sirjosefofhessen4527]

I fight lichtenhoffer armor combat using Warhammer pole weapons and axes and swords

[@sirjosefofhessen4527]

I been cut too during solo drill in just my hosen using a bastard sword

[@silver_tongue9644]

Show us your live sparing! I wana know how to beat ppl

[@cmbaileytstc]

Couldn’t training like this be done with a fair bit of speed and intent and less risk by wearing mail head to foot?

[@Wulframite]

You train as you intend to fight. I have received many scars from my study of defence, inflicted by myself and others. This is the first rule, I believe. To fight with edged weapons, expect to be cut. Firearms are taught through the use of live ammunition. When you fight with them you expect to be shot. Respect your weapons.

[@swordandshield]

This is true. However, other than some people training with fire arms, I do not expect to have to use my experience with sharp sword blade binds for self defense.

[@Wulframite]

Oh, I am quite certain I never will either. Just in case it ever happens, I would like to be prepared.

[@LangstonDev]

I train with firearms all the time and I very seriously do not "expect to be shot." Actually one of the main reasons to train with firearms is to *avoid* being shot and a lot of repetitive safety training goes in to handling to avoid it. We also don't shoot at each other with live ammo during training and loads of training is done with sims, dummy rounds and just empty guns. I don't expect to be cut either. I'm not sure being shot and being cut is something worth boasting about, sounds like a severely negligent and irresponsible attitude to have.

[@Wulframite]

@@LangstonDev A fair opinion. However you and I are individuals. I never elaborated on the way we use sharp weapons to train. You have pointed out, through the analogy of firearms, the same precautions we take with both live ammunition and sharp weapons. That is arrows and bolts, javelins and thrown spears, and yes, also sharp swords and axes, for myself and family are treated as you might take a hot weapon to the firing line at a shooting range. There is a supervisor, a range master if you will, observing and correcting mistakes. I also add as an aside, that we treat blunt weapons in the same way as sharps. Similar to the concept of, "There is no such thing as an unloaded firearm." So if you are concerned for our safety, thank you. I hope I have allayed your fears. If, however you simply wanted to start an argument on the internet, have a nice day.

[@Aivengo007]

how sharp can a sword be?

[@Cleanpea]

It depends on the bevel(?), but it can be razor-sharp. A sword is usually more useful, the sharper it is. Google 'service-sharp' in relation to sabers!

[@johnrohde5510]

Utterly stupid and entirely unnecessary. The only purpose for using sharp weapons is to incorporate the fear of injury or death. So, if you are avoiding hurting each other, you are actually totally contradicting whatever purpose there might be. If it makes you feel hard though ....

[@swordandshield]

Erschrickstu gern, keyn fechten lern!

[@johnrohde5510]

@@swordandshield but if you are fencing with sharp swords, your fears are that your opponent's incompetence will cause you harm or yours will harm him or her. What you are practicing is a circus performance, not a duel.

[@silver_tongue9644]

@@johnrohde5510 hahaha Also he didn’t know how to use a shield to fight

[@swordandshield]

This is not the first time I am having this discussion, and I usually refrain from even responding to people who are quick to dismiss things they do not understand by calling them "utterly stupid' without having the courtesy to introduce themselves and explain their background as any decent martial artist I have met over the course of decades would. So it is mainly for the benefit of other viewers and readers that I take the time to tell you that any combat practice and form of sparring is but a simulation. It always requires some form of compromise for the sake of safety. In order to benefit from your sparring, you have to know which is the focus and which is the compromise. The more sparring modes you have, the more holistic and rewarding your training. For example: wearing a fencing mask allows for actually thrusting in the face, yet you do not learn danger awareness and the level of precision and control that automatically comes with fencing without protection or even with sharps. The fact that you are unable to see this only shows that you still have a long way to go before you even become aware of the level your ignorance. And before you get infuriated now, I extend my invitation, as per usual, to change your key-board for a sword and find me: You are welcome to register for the Berlin Buckler Bouts and continue this discussion sword in hand, with protection or without.

[@silver_tongue9644]

@@swordandshield firstly I would be very happy to do that, and after covid I hope we meet Until then allow me to make a more compleat criticism Your a very proficient sword and buckler fighter i have no doubt But your trying to apply the same techniques to full shields and I don’t think that quite works First what u got right, the punch with the rim of the shield This is definitely effective no question However Your shield binding seems rather strange and I’d question its practicality for big shields (I’ve said this before in your comments and I’ll say it again) U say that it’s better to be on top of your opponents shield however I think this is incorrect In wresting the person who is lower can out push their partner And I see no reason for this not to be the case here Also I would think it’s better to hold the shield closer to the body (it is almost a full body shield after all) and only extend to block In your vid about shields u said it wasn’t a good idea to advance with your shield flat to your opponent as they could just punch your shield open, this is true unless you do a very simple thing and use your weapon hand to support your shield, this allows you to advance indefinitely with little fear The only ways u can be attacked is either a leg cut, or a shield break ie your shield being pulled out of the way some how And as to let cuts, most ppl would be waiting shin guards with such a small shield surely! Finally why do we never see you actually sparing? It is I believe the most important part of training