FF14 Patch 6.5 is DONE - Just Filler or the Next BIG Story?

[@TheDailyPreach]

This is a full spoiler talk, so if you've not done this content yet, probably don't watch... you can leave a like anyway though :)

[@puppetstudio4989]

nah preach this was filler in my opinion, they kinda blew everything in base story that was good in end :P

[@Kirby-Mania]

People have told me that the Warriors of Darkness questline post Heavensward was widely considered filler and look at how important it ended up being

[@zerohopf]

except, at the very least, the post Heavensward story was well written and interesting.

[@blizzfreak]

@@zerohopf Oh come off it. 3.4 and 3.5 were widely derided when they came out.

[@zerohopf]

@@blizzfreak you weren't there, stop huffing copium and just accept that post EW is a filler.

[@Hailtothegun]

@@zerohopf I was there. Warriors of Darkness was a random filler arc pre-Shadowbringers, un-killing all of the Scions was a cop-out especially since the 3.0 MSQ already undid Nanamo's death, and Lyse/Yda was one of the worst written "revelations" they have ever done. Quit being contrarian.

[@atelierbagur3831]

​@@zerohopfit really wasnt.

[@sonnyson01]

They gave Gaia a voiced line in the MSQ. There is no way this whole arc won't come back in the next expansion after Dawn Trail or even the next next

[@SuperRamos619]

They are just doing what they need to do to ensure sure the future of FFXIV. They are planting seeds to harvest later. After EW, we've reaped nearly all the seeds that were planted since ARR.

[@lchigoKurosaki]

Does Gaia appear if you didnt do Eden?

[@walkseva]

@@lchigoKurosaki No.

[@lchigoKurosaki]

@@walkseva thanks

[@NotSolutha]

I dont see them adding eden as a requirement for the MSQ like crystal tower

[@linkavantasia94]

This Questline feels like the Warriors of Darkness storyline in Heavensward, it was kinda isolated between the Dragonsong War and Stormblood, but it set the foundation for Shadowbringers, one of the best arcs of the game.

[@omensoffate]

Huffing that copium

[@kegosan7622]

​​@@omensoffateAs Yoshi already stated that a possible new player starting point could be 6.1 and not 7.0 very much hints that this was not a filler. I could very much see us in 8.0 at Meracydia and 9.0 at the 13th Shard.

[@zephyr8072]

@@kegosan7622 Yoshi is winging it harder than his cult of personality fanatics on copium.

[@aydenmartin5650]

yoshi p has said a lot of dumb stuff, ofc he is going to say something like that because ppl hated the storyline of 6.1-6.5, so he says something good about it to make all the ff14 babies happy @@kegosan7622

[@poi4266]

I don't think you have the right to call anyone a fanatic. After skimming through the comments and seeing you be a stereotypical anti jerker in 50% of the comments people leave. I highly suggest going outside instead of being a fanatic posting reply comments for a hour straight. 😅

[@moznayim]

The Zero/Golbez/Void story makes me wonder at how people felt about the Warriors of Darkness when it was current. They had zero connection with Ishgard or the dragons, and felt kind of awkward as a major plot point taking place between the Thordan and Nidhogg fights, and then just... ends. Seemingly at least, because we find out they were setting up everything for Shadowbringers. I am 100% certain this is to set up for a future expansion, possibly taking us to new places in both the First and Thirteenth.

[@currynator]

I can say on my part that when I did the warriors of darkness story when it was current (3.1 and 3.4) I genuinely did not like those stories. They felt extremely weird compared to rest, the whole concept of multiple worlds was something that I had not understood properly by that point and it did feel like a pointless filler. There was interesting stuff and ardbert did leave impression on the voice actor's part but the rest left me very disappointed. Of course, in Shadowbringers, it all paid off and became amazing but I still don't look too fondly back on those patches to this day, simply because of my first impressions of them. I did enjoy the current void MSQ, maybe a bit cheesy at times and couple boring bits in the mid but overall it was nice. And I have full confidence that this story will have a proper pay off in the future expansions (my quess is that they needed to setup the void into something more livable once we get there proper, 'cause whole expansion of nothing but darkness and "death zones" would be dull).

[@kimaclaret]

That's a good point. I started playing in earnest right as ShB was coming out, but I was secluded from the community and didn't know anything about the game really. I remember when I got to the WoD part, I thought it was so disconnected from the more pressing issues of the time, and it did feel random. Of course I didn't have years between seeing them again like other players, and their departure pre SB broke my heart a bit, but I really didn't expect them to come back in such a big way. I do wonder if this portion of the msq gives similar vibes for people who are playing in HW.

[@candykit5382]

People hated it. It felt like it dragged on and on, who are these people? Theyre dicks with little personal motivation or stakes, they oull stuff out their ass and oh time to wait another 4 months. During hw people absolutely detested this storyline. Nowadays it helps that people arent waiting 4 months between patches so it flows together alot better than doing it over the course of say, a whole year.

[@zephyr8072]

People are flat out lying when they're saying people hated the WoD storyline. Yes, people disliked how dickish they were, but overall it was resolved in a decent way and people weren't that concerned over it. The big difference between Ardbert and the other WoDs and Zero is that Ardbert did not usurp the position of protagonist and make the story all about him and how special he is. Zero has. Zero is absolutely insufferable in how she takes the position of protagonist from the player but is loved by everyone and successful at everything. All to just end up as a bad ripoff of Cecil. It's revolting.

[@noblewolf8232]

​@@zephyr8072 No. Your take is revolting.

[@reyjusuf]

If you talk to Cyella and Unukalhai after 6.5, they indicated that they're going to help restoring the void soon. This storyline is not done.

[@zephyr8072]

Gee it sure would've been nice to see them involved in this storyline instead of Zero doing everything.

[@DemonLordSparda]

@@zephyr8072 Now it might be hard for you to understand this, but maybe, just maybe, this was a setup for a future expanded story with multiple characters. That thing the game is pretty notable for doing.

[@zephyr8072]

@@DemonLordSparda And maybe this is hard for _you_ to understand, but they should've done that now and introduced Zero alongside them for a more natural and balanced narrative instead of making the universe revolve around Zero. Take two seconds to stop browsing rule34 for pictures of Zero and perhaps you'll begin to grasp this concept.

[@Snarkybaboon]

@@zephyr8072 This current story wasn't about restoring the 13th it was about rescuing Azdaja and defeating Golbez which they accomplished, the possibility of restoring the 13th is a byproduct of it. Including Unukalhai and Cyella at this point in time when their stories are both locked behind class quests and an alliance raid would be a pretty major deviation for players to have to make just to continue the MSQ, it makes way more sense to include them in future side story content when the focus is on actually restoring the 13th.

[@Ramotttholl]

Speaking of them wasnt it fun to have Zero get a tour of the Crystarium and they still ignored them? And only once she returned and the finished the MSQ could we mention them and you get to talk to Cyella and Unukalhai again.

[@vermillionwing]

The backhalf of EW felt like tying up loose ends, and setting up new threads to pull on for the future. Also if you look at it objectively, EW is basically like ARR and Stormblood, in which they're "world building" expansion focusing on width and scale vs the "regional" expansions of HW and ShB. And dawntrail seems to be going back to a depth based "regional" focus again.

[@SBSDK1]

Setting up new threads to pull on in the future is putting it mildly. Just think of how long between Graha locking himself in the tower and it finally becoming relevant again, or how long it took for them to bring back the warriors of darksness from HW, or Unukalhai from the warring triad. Suddenly many of these became relevant again after years of nothing. The 6.1 to 6.5 arc may have tied itself up, but it also clearly left soo many pieces in place for an eventual void expansion, if the devs ever decide to go there. The question is just if they will, or when.

[@zephyr8072]

Stormblood is widely regarded as the weakest filler expansion of them all. Going back to that is not a great idea.

[@geek593]

ARR and SB worked because there were still major conflicts and secrets to the setting. People probably don't remember how amazing the last two patches of SB were for expanding the setting. Omega and Midgardsormr being aliens and Ultima being essentially Crystal Lavos was incredible while the full force of Garlemald came down on us in Ghimlyt Dark with the political plot of Garlemald looking like it could have been interesting. And then we got isekai'd and the setting kept shrinking.

[@RRapierre]

​@@zephyr8072you missed the part when he also mentioned Heavensward... Jfc

[@jeremiahbullfrog226]

@@zephyr8072 People who regard Stormblood as weak filler have no media literacy tbh. If they think it didn't matter, then they just weren't paying attention.

[@jaesaces]

Zero reminds me a little of how in Star Trek there would always be a character who saw the world differently -- Spock or Data come to mind -- whose role in the story was to provide an outside perspective on humanity, to highlight things about mankind by contrasting it with one who isn't quite the same. Of course, FFXIV's main lessons (friendship, empathy, be an example for future generations) are well-worn at this point so it's not exactly the same, but it's nice to see it recontextualized and applied to a world in a much more dire state, whose inhabitants have all but given up on all three.

[@Meatallic]

16:25 I think this is one of the big draws to following along with others through the MSQ, at least for me personally. There are a bunch of details that go over my head while I'm in the moment, but watching/listening to someone else go through it helps me memorize what I missed. So when the next patch comes out, I have that solidified memory to jump off from.

[@NoOne-gg5mc]

When you think about it, the Post-EW story is basically the Trial series content we had from previous expansions, but was promoted to MSQ status (which explains why we didn't get a Trial series the expansion). Knowing that the team wanted to wrap everything up through the main expansion, but still needed MSQ content to fill the patch cycle, you can see why it played out the way it did. However, knowing that previous expansions had alleged-filler content that later turned relevant (i.e the Warriors of Darkness plot), this could be the foundation for a future story. With Merycidia most likely being the focus of the next expansion after Dawntrail, and knowing its history with the void, it's very possible.

[@MoonTiger88]

I liked the small touch that Thaliak said "as your patron deity I shall receive you with my all." , when we first had a talk with them in the new patch. Would be curious if he had a different line of dialogue with those who didn't pick him as their guardian.

[@ftilxe]

Yes! My patron deity was Oschon. When Deryk transformed and revealed himself to be Oschon, he said "As your patron deity, ever have I watched over you. And now I await your coming with bated breath." It was a really nice touch for everyone to have that acknowledgment with their patron

[@cynthiahembree3957]

@@ftilxe Oschon being your patron deity made this literally perfect. It's a great touch because he is the last of the Twelve you face.

[@keremcantarhan]

@@ftilxe I had Oschon as well and enjoyed that very much because as far as I know, that's the only change your patron deity affect in the game.

[@Enderlinkpawnu]

I think its one of those things that feels like filler in the moment, but we don’t have the full picture. This will not be the last time we see our friend in the 13th. This patch expecially feels like SE is moving the pieces in place for something to happen.

[@zephyr8072]

Huffing that copium harder than a WoW fan.

[@Raidousin]

​@@zephyr8072warriors of darkness was seen as filler as well

[@geek593]

@@Raidousin Well executed filler while other stories were playing out concurrently. There's no A-plot B-plot C-plot in EW's MSQ like there had been in ARR, HW, and SB. It's all been Void with nothing else going on. This meant everything lingered too long while the rest of the setting stood still. When the Warriors of Darkness got good in a sudden burst of insane cutscene quality we were left wanting more. Right now I'd be happy with never seeing Zero again.

[@NBSgamesAT]

@@geek593EW post story line has an major issue with pacing but I didn‘t mind that too much. I personally think that there is a 5% change we aren‘t coming back to that in some way. Hell I believe that we are going to the 13th in 8.0

[@sukunahikona94]

@@zephyr8072 How is that copium? Payoff requires setup, it's the cycle of storytelling. Oop, found your takes in other threads. Forget I said anything.

[@Lorddraigo]

I agree with the person who said DT should start out without true conflict. Obviously not the whole 7.0, but like the MSQ from 90-93. Every expansion after ARR has started with a major conflict pushing us forward. DT can easily start with Krile just wanting to learn more about her grandfather and us going along to help/vacation. The conflict can grow from there, not start immediately.

[@ruick78]

Well we already see from end od 6.5 msq patch someone come looking to request our assitance. My guess it be simple hey we want you champion to in this tournament of kings, then we go through learn something dark going on

[@Lorddraigo]

@@ruick78 yeah, that's what I mean. I hope it's "Hey, come with us to explore this area/fun thing (like a tournament). Oh no, now there's a conflict we need you to solve for us." vs "Come with us because we need you to solve a conflict."

[@cynthiahembree3957]

I'm hoping for a very small scale conflict. Like Heavensward was. The world wasn't about to end but Ishgard was in peril. I think focusing on small scale and building up like they did with this grand saga would be great.

[@Windupchronic]

Every expansion has had setup in it not only for the next expansion, but for the one after that as well. Post ARR introduced Yugiri and the Doman refugees, which was setup for StB. Post HW introduced the Warriors of Darkness which was setup for ShB. Post StB dealt with a lot of Garlean inner turmoil which set up EW. There’s almost certainly stuff post ShB that setup for DT that we simply haven’t realized yet. There’s certainly stuff here post EW setting up the expansion after DT. When you’re playing through it all now as a new player, you don’t really realize it. But at the time, when you had to wait two+ years for a payoff, you wondered why the hell you were doing some of this stuff, like dealing with Warriors of Darkness. I’m about to go into StB, why am I dealing with Warriors of Darkness?

[@arkboi2145]

The only things that come to mind are: 1) Hydaelyn/Venat, Emet-Selch/Hades, and Hythlodaeus no longer watching over and helping us or Etheirys and returning their essences to the planet. 2) The Twelve no longer watching over or helping Etheirys and returning their essences to the planet. 3) Krile receiving a letter form her grandfather with a green flower earring and a note about Tural. 4) That Zero and Golbez are working on restoring light to the 13th.

[@SamuriX2010]

Fron what I understand as to why we cant do darkness to the 1st YET is because we lack an intershard focus to channel that aether through the empty space between the shards. The first has the crystal tower but the 13th has nothing as of now.

[@SniperKing-O]

When it comes to the Void, I think we'll see it play a major role for when we eventually go to Meracydia. Meracydia was heavily ravaged by not only the summoning of primals, but also their unwanted war with Allag and the latter releasing countless voidsent alongside their chimeras to completely overpower and decimate the continent. My theory is there will be an old gate of some sort that'll help us freely travel between the Void and Source. Much like how in FF9, the way you get to Terra to chase down Kuja, you have to find the sealed gate that leads you there on one of the lost continents of Gaia, the world the main story mostly takes place on.

[@Ratched64]

The 6.1 -> 6.5 questline was super good in itself and i enjoyed all the voidsend/ 13th reflection stuff a lot. Even IF they would not build on it further, it was already worth it. Because with this logic you could even consider all of heavensward filler since we go to Ishgard, do some Dragon stuff and then its not much related to the big Garlean/ Ascian plot line. just let them cook and enjoy.

[@jaesaces]

With the "couldn't we bring darkness back over to the first " I think the issue is that the Thirteenth doesn't have a Crystal Tower to act as transmitter of sorts. While some individuals might be able to create void rifts like Unukalhai and Taynor, it doesn't look like it's a process that would be easy or safe enough to do at the scale necessary to restore darkness to the First.

[@psoffxifan4904]

14:42 You know, people said the same thing about the warriors of darkness back when patch 3.4 released. My fc members kept complaining that it was a wasted patch msq, this has nothing to do with anything, that was pointless and weird... and then shadowbringers happened.

[@Pravaification]

I assume the viewer meant that we don't need a MASSIVE WORLD-ENDING conflict all the time. Dawntrail will have conflict in the form of a succession crisis, and the possibility that the Scions will be split on this decision, but we don't need to repeat Shadowbringers and Endwalker where the fate of the world/universe are at stake again. Look at WoW, where world-ending conflicts happen all the time to the point where it feels mundane, FFXIV doesn't need to rely so heavily on such tropes.

[@Junebug89]

Yeah most conflict in FFXIV is not world ending. The main stories of 5.0 and 6.0 are, Pandaemonium certainly is, Omega is, Alexander is and maaayyybe Ultima from the Ivalice raids is? That sounds like a lot, but given every expansion has at least two major threats in its MSQ, two raid series and usually a trial series, it actually turns that about 80% of our major conflicts are not on the level "world-ending conflict". I wouldn't expect Dawntrail to be either, though I am sure it will lay the groundwork for something bigger down the road.

[@Nutrafin-3D]

im kinda eh on this 24 man raid series fight design. Day 1, server up first run on all 3 raid releases..... never wiped. (except scales) All blind... Never wiped on any of the 3 raids.(scales) It *_IS_* absolutely too easy. .. When you skip the tail end mechanics and never get LB3 anymore unless it was scripted, _day one,_ there is a problem

[@Asmodean1111]

The post EW MSQ give me the same feels of 3.4 Warrior of Darkness Encounter, a major thread set up for late to be a major story with it clearly being set up for helping to fix the 13th once we have a way to travel the shards freely without needing massive Ather drain to do so. Only problem I had was how on the nose Zero was to Cecil from ff4. Main thing I am wondering is if our character shard was the first golbez or not, as I feel Zero is better fit as someone entirely their own character wise.

[@zephyr8072]

Considering their refusal to do a face reveal for Golbez I think it obvious that they were meant to be the WoL's shard. I find it annoying how they kept teasing a face reveal and then didn't do it however. Apparently the technology to clone the player's head is beyond them. It also makes it all the more obnoxious that the final confrontation and talking down of Durante!Golbez was left up to Zero instead of us. It very much feels like yet another aspect that Zero stole from us in this insipid storyline.

[@nerothos640]

@@zephyr8072 Cloning the player's head would be dumb AF, Ardbert isn't a clone of us

[@zephyr8072]

@@nerothos640 So why tease the reveal at all then? Shards are sometimes clones, sometimes not. Possibly depending on what incarnation outlives the other. That's the established lore.

[@nerothos640]

@@zephyr8072 because we don't need to see his face at all, it's irrelevant to the story, he was the guy in armor, that's all. Also because he's based on FF4 and he doesn't have a face there too

[@zephyr8072]

@@nerothos640 Then why tease it? That’s my contention. Either show it or don’t, just don’t play silly buggers with it for no reason, that’s a complete waste of time.

[@dafire9634]

Imo what tells me that patch msq for EW isnt filler, is that when asked for a "new start point for new players" yoshi said "6.1 would be an idea" rather than 7.0

[@Arcnei]

I've seen this pop up a few times in other circles and friend groups. And I feel many do forget that for it's time, the crystal tower story line was a filler tale for quite a while. I don't see why a future expansion can't bring the post EW storyline into a similar case where it starts off self contained, then is broadened out into a greater spanning tale.

[@Kuroganemk2]

It's true but doesn't make the current patch cycle and even perhaps the whole expansions boring

[@DracoSuave]

*Heavensward* was a filler arc.

[@FatalFatalisFtFts]

The same can be said for the Warriors of Darkness in HW before ShB came out.

[@RatchildUK]

There's 0 doubt in my mind that one of the new expansions post 7.0 will be entirely dedicated to the restoration of the 13th and 1st.

[@zephyr8072]

@@RatchildUK Did you just not do the Eden raid series?

[@Mir_Teiwaz]

Keep in mind that there's more to the role quests in shadowbringers after the thing with Cylva. I missed out on some dialogue choices because the next quest was hidden behind talking to her at the bar again despite her not having a quest marker.

[@TallZeratul]

The post patches hit on some crazy stuff that people seem to just gloss over. The horrific state of cannabalistic undeath in the 13th, the multiple watchers, Garlemald rebuilding a new governmental structure, beings that can shatter the interdimensional rift, not to mention what the ramifications of the unclaimed parts of Zodiark dispersing on other shards might be. That being said, the patches are a bit heavy with exposition, and some bits get a little too corny.

[@koopa299]

Endwalker post-MSQ is a big wrap up of all the mysteries that have existed since ARR. Void, The Twelve, The heart of Sabik (Ultima)... Compare to other Post-MSQ from the rest of the expansions when they clearly setup what is coming, EW is here to give conclusions of all the remaining stories. However, these conclusions still leave gap and another mystery for us to find out in the future expansions, like how Ryne and Zero will return to MSQ in the future and how Heart of Sabik will be reintroduced. It's gonna take some times to see them again but I am happy to see these 10 years arc have completely wrapped up

[@Charmionn]

I know Mike did a bit of Eureka last year but are there any plans to go further with it? Considering Dawntrail will involve Krile and Galuf the Eureka story is not completely irrelevant. Plus it'd be neat to see expanded thoughts on Eureka as a complete piece of content that is very much inspired by older MMO gameplay.

[@Demonmack0]

nope

[@benoitrousseau4137]

No but I wish they bumped the current Eureka to level 90. With all the abilities they removed, 70 is missing a lot of things for a lot of jobs compared to the Stormblood days, and you'll spend a lot of time in Eureka if you're doing a relic.

[@nerothos640]

@@benoitrousseau4137 I wish they made it so you get real exp when you do the NM so you can level alt jobs and peoples would make it more popular once more and way faster to do

[@Saieden]

I would say the 6.x MSQ is definitely loosely connected filler, but it is still some of if not the best "filler" I've ever seen. Also, Troia is one of my favourite dungeons and having to walk back to the entrance on foot was such a great throwback to the times of yore.

[@MinatureMinotaur3223]

The devs said 6.4 and 6.5 would have things we've never seen before so i don't know what they meant by that.

[@lukapitkanen3333]

2:00 just to add to this alliance raid discussion, I think alliance raids should have a little bit more difficulty in them because it doesn’t really matter if people die, there’s so many people in the raid so you won’t wipe anyways. There were maybe one or two people dying to these new raid bosses in a run which is just boring. Ivalice alliance raids had the sweet spot in diffuculty imo.

[@p-tannn]

The end of Endwalker gave me the vibe that I had with post Heavensward storyline. With that in hindsight, I have faith that story from the Void will come back. For now, I'm just waiting to see if they will deliver more content as they've promised us in Dawntrail.

[@Cranefluff]

I think the Eden raids need to become mandatory like the Crystal Tower was and the SHB role quest storyline needs to be altered slightly so it can be progressed like patch MSQ (no role requirments). The role quests should also explain who Unukalhai is for people who didn't do the HW trials, and then point players towards that optional content should they choose to learn even more.

[@Brackers1989]

Looking forward to the Endwalker video, for me Endwalker was great. It was massive fan service throughout the .0 patch but the key thing that makes the .0 patch great for me was that it made Shadowbringers better. The after story with zero was good, agree it isn't filler and has a bigger part to play in the grand scheme however, I was disappointed that when speaking to Ukulele and Cyella after the final quest we didn't get too much extra (for reasons you mentioned, people may not have completed the job quests), Cyella didn't even acknowledge anything was happening and Ukulele did but gave a passing comment akin to "oh cool, great to hear". Would have been a nice touch to see them all come together or ask where they can help etc.

[@Salt_Mage]

Ivalice is the perfect spot for difficulty imo. Mechanics that will kill you if you ignore them and more importantly the mechanics move quick enough to keep me engaged. The last tier of Myths has this weird delay after every single mechanic where I’m waiting for just long enough that I start to wonder where the mechanic is. I felt zero engagement healing this raid series outside of maybe Rhalgr, Nald’thal, and Halone

[@Corack4]

Kinda feel the same. Of course i and i think many others dont expect savage or even extreme levels of difficulty in this content, but i also dont want it to turn into just fighting beautiful striking dummies.

[@neobahumuth6]

Considering what they had to do to Orbonne I wouldn't use the term perfect spot to describe then

[@cynthiahembree3957]

I would agree but I don't have a life so I have much more time to get good at the game

[@AutumnPanda]

I agree that the whole MSQ is setting up future stuff, I personally really enjoyed it. It was another "world ending threat" sure, but I think it started simple and nobody would have expected a simple map to start this whole chain of events. I'm always wary of "upping" the stakes as it were, because in WoW it was like "this bad guy is actually just trying to save the universe from the even badder guy" and it just gets old. I don't think the patch stories were higher stakes than the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc, cause by that logic everything we've done has been a world ending threat.

[@BHFFS]

Presumably a future expansion, maybe the next one after Dawntrail, will go to Meracydia. So saving Azdaja will most likely be really important to that storyline. We have seen this sort of pacing before with the Warriors of Darkness in Post-Heavensward being set up for Shadowbringers 2 expansions later.

[@tbeshers]

Can I please take a moment to stress just how darn cute Azdaja is after she was saved. :-)

[@ArchieBlacke]

They could only send energy between the first and the source because they each have a crystal tower, remember they didn't send light to the 13th directly but through the portal they had already opened. It's convoluted but makes sense. The little orbs just connect an aether source to the tower.

[@WarnarI]

The Neir and Ivalice Alliance end raids were more difficult than the current Myth one. Heck, would say the part 2 of Myth Alliance Raid is slightly more difficult than part 3

[@neobahumuth6]

I wouldn't say euphrosyne was harder than this one since they added stuff they generally don't add for alliance raids. However the problem is that bosses have too few HP. Checking my kill time vs bunker's and paradigm tower kill times they lack about 2 or more minutes of HP

[@enderfawx3063]

​@@neobahumuth6The people who liked the Nier raids didn't like them for the length of the fight, moreso that the mechanics were pretty unique and easy to fail, and rewarding to do correctly. I remember I hit the vuln limit cap on my first run as a tank and died maybe once or twice but it was still really fun.

[@WarnarI]

@neobahumuth6 yeah, i agree their hp is an issue. But theres more to it. I never felt threatened mechanics wise as part 2 of Myth, with exception of when in the canal. But once you are aware of the mechanic, its easy tank and spank. Halone, for example, kept players on their toes throughout the fight. So did the final boss of prt 2. Part 3s end boss was a neat idea to use mechanics we faced before. But the tempo wasnt there, felt more threatened and engaged from our life/death god from prt 1. It also doesn't help for its release is the long que times. Besides not a great idea to have a 24man raid being the last bit of easy high tier gear for an expansion thats locked weekly. Theres no other reason to ho on other than the coin token, which most don't care for as QUE Times indicate. Would have been great if last Relic Weapons for the expansion was like past expansions and required materials from the raid, but sadly this is not the case. Not saying its a bad Raid for being alright in challenge. 7-8/10. However, when compared to past part 3 alliance raids, it gets into mediocre territory when done repeatedly.

[@neobahumuth6]

@@WarnarI most of the issues you say however have been there since inceptions as for mechanics not being threatening I think it's mostly because we know most of the markers by now + the fact the ppl who worked on the raid were new. But the HP thing is the real problem because it means you'll never have to deal with the harder combinations, like realistically as a tier 3 it's in the same ballpark of nier in terms of threats

[@neobahumuth6]

@@enderfawx3063 what unique mechanics?

[@VideogamesPang]

I think the reason people call it filler is that even if it does become relevant later is that the story feels very stretched out, which is painful when there's 4.5 months between episodes. I think they were constrained by wanting to do all the FF4 references. 6.3 to 6.5 felt like a single patch worth of story developments, but because we had to fight the fiends, we had to fight Golbez, and we had to fight Zeromus, and we're limited to 1 dungeon and 1 trial per patch, it got stretched out to 3 patches. It very much felt like trying to fill the time between the end of Endwalker and start of Dawntrail. I'm not fully convinced that the patch stories are setting up for something huge later. It could happen, it could also not. I'm even less convinced that the Triad/Role Quests/Eden stuff will eventually come into play, it is just too much old content to force players through. Role Quests especially since they require leveling 4 jobs to 80. If it does come back, I think it's more likely to be as a raid or trial series (or otherwise side content), since they have less trouble putting extra requirements on those compared to MSQ.

[@Junebug89]

Yoshi P has said that Gaia's story isn't over in particular. Now, I guess he could have meant her little cameo at the end of 6.5, but I *really* doubt it.

[@OniScythe]

The raid is fine. I like it a lot even. Probably second to Ivalice for me personally. Tactics Bias probably I do wish I could get a pre nerfed Orbonne Monastery style experience again. I feel people blew the difficulty out of proportion when it came to that. That or I was lucky with my DF groups.

[@SuperRamos619]

I think people are calling it "filler" because, under normal circumstances, this story would have wraped up 2 patches ago, and we would already be immersed into the introduction to the Dawntrail story. But since this is an abnormal patch cadence, due to EW wrapping itself up in the 6.0 MSQ, the story feels very stretched out, especially since we have to wait 4.5 months between each story bit. It probably feels much better playing through all of it at once.

[@Kuroganemk2]

This whole thing feels like anime filler. Like they didn't know what to put in

[@aydenmartin5650]

naw its filler cuz they have a fuck ton of stuff with literal zero relevance to the story, something can be stretched out without having filler but the way SE did it was absolutely horrible and boring

[@DemonLordSparda]

@@aydenmartin5650 What are you even talking about? How does it have no relevance to the story? Everything is related to concepts and plots brought up in the past.

[@zephyr8072]

@@DemonLordSparda Except it's not. Because they just shoehorned FFIV into everything. None of that was ever even hinted at before, unlike the previous arc's actually thoughtful references to FFIII. But then what would someone with a double digit IQ like you know about proper storytelling?

[@DemonLordSparda]

@@zephyr8072 Personal attacks say way more about you than anything else.

[@brynphillips9957]

As someone who has played this game from the start, I have come to the option there is very little that is ever complete 'filler'. Even if it isn't completely directly, things always seem to tie back in one way or another. The only exception might be Neir as I think they will leave that as its own thing. Hell, we even have indicators that we will see more relating to Ultima in the future since one of the biggest questions since 2.0 was what exactly was the Heart of Sobek and it sounds very much like Ultima was around in some form or another even prior to the original end of days.

[@Jade-nn3bn]

The Heart of Sabik plotline was pretty much resolved with the Pandaemonium raid story. Lahabrea defines what it was and how it had the power to store things nearly as powerful as a god. As for Ultima itself I would be surprised if we ever saw his form made manifest as more than just Ultima Weapon and the Ultima spell it casts.

[@Junebug89]

@@Jade-nn3bn Heart of Sabik is probably done with I agree (although just... giving it to the researchers at the end of Panda felt extremely weird). However, the origin of Ultima is another question. She is theorized to be an alien, and well... she certainly might not be the only one hailing from wherever she does. I could see that come into play along with auracite taking center stage (as if it isn't already spun throughout a surprising amount of the game lol).

[@wackyzap1304]

I agree that Alliance Raids shouldn't be overly-difficult, but they should be tuned correctly so that all of the fun parts are seen. It's sad when bosses get killed so fast that you don't even see the interesting parts of their mechanics. Some of them need more health. Even in Preach's run, he didn't see the end of the first two boss's mechanics.

[@kegosan7622]

True. This Expansion they died so fast that not even a LB3 could be used.

[@Towelietowel]

I actually LOVED 6.1 and 6.2, and consider them my favorite x.1 and x.2 patches in the whole game. Unfortunately 6.3 and 6.4 killed the momentum of the story. I don't agree that the whole patch MSQ felt like filler, but those 2 patches definitely did. The finale in 6.5 was fine, but it doesn't hold up to other other big story finales this game has given us. The patch MSQ suffered from a lack of a true "PEAK" moment, like 3.3, 4.3 and 5.3 gave us.

[@sirnonsense5033]

I mean that’s mostly cuz these patches here are there to 1 patch up loose ends and 2 plant seeds for the future. U can’t have big moments without prework and we start to run out of the prework arr did all those years ago. Curious tho where they go with dawntrail and what the next arc is about. After all it was greenlight for 3-4 expansion at min I believe.

[@nerothos640]

I don't really agree with the .3 thing, too many peoples are overhypping those patch tbh. They remember them more fondly that there really are (specially 4.3)

[@Junebug89]

Yeah 6.2 was an amazing patch, it also had the second part of Pandaemonium which was phenomenal. It did feel a bit downhill from there.

[@SuperTacocat]

I think my misgivings with the 24 man encounters weren't about how easy they were, but how experimental they weren't. Some alliance bosses in the past showed a real creativity--or at least novelty--with their mechanics that just isn't really present here. The exception for me is Llymlaen, who at least changes her arena if only slightly, forces you to do downtime mechanics, and also forces you to look around at the serpents while doing her other mechanics. Easy, and not exactly unique, but appropriate to her thematically and novel in their own right. I think in the future I'd like to see some revisiting of these bosses, maybe in the form of a Savage 24 man or an Ultimate even. Not just for the difficulty, but because I think such important figures in 14's lore deserve to be expanded on and explored mechanically. But yeah, the MSQ felt fine to me. A bit shortsighted to think the things established here wouldn't carry forward into future content, as you mentioned. Was a bit surprising to see how limited or nonexistent characters like Gaia, Cylva, and Unukalhai were in the conflict, but that will be addressed later on I hope.

[@sinom]

In general with 6.5 a focus with the combat I saw was them trying out smoothly moving danger zones (at least visually. The snapshots themselves are still snapshot puddles). This was both stuff like the zeromus beam attack, llymlaen's wave, but also stuff like the moving AOE indicators (before they lock in) in oschon's fight. All of them weren't as experimental or set piece-y as previous fight mechanics were, and the arenas basically all just being medium sized square or circle for a bit boring, but they were definitely at least trying something a bit new.

[@NPDStudio]

Endwalker seemed like the end of the 10 year story and Post-Endwalker always seemed to me that it would be a standalone FF4 story. I was very happy with it. ^^ Was holding on to the theory that Zero would be Cecil's representative and started cheering when i saw her look into the mirror 😁 I'd definitely like Alliance raids (and the game overall) to be a bit harder. Just a bit - not so much that i'd need to use Party Finder for it. I loved the raid and it was my favorite alliance series, but admittedly, when we beat the last alliance Day 1 with no deaths, i was a bit disappointed. Mainly since it will only ever get easier overtime. Pandamonium was a Big Win for me. The story didn't go the way i hoped it would, but its my fav raid series in the game because of the aesthetic, music, glamour & bosses. Delighted Gaia is starting to enter MSQ canon now. Usually Raid characters like those in Crystal Tower, Four Lords, Omega, etc take about 2-3 expansions til they make an appearance in MSQ. Graha Tia was even less of a character that Gaia was, and just look at our boy now! 😁✨ Im still holding out hope for a Bojza-like content in the 13th with Gaia, Ryne, Zero, Unekhalia, etc where we just mow down Voidsent ✨

[@shawnscouten5184]

I would like that, but unfortunately gaia only appears if you did eden already i think

[@NPDStudio]

​​@@shawnscouten5184 I imagine this optional scene was an early nod to her. Then around Dawntrail or afterwards, the dev team will go back to make Eden a requirement before her story gets too involved, like they did with Crystal Tower and the other raids/extremes. Crystal Tower wasn't even a requirement until well after Shadowbringers was already out. ^^'

[@anteprs7908]

you dont see her if you didnt do the raid btw

[@brynphillips9957]

Part of me kind of expected a reveal at the end that Zero's original name was something like Cecilia.

[@tinybee7780]

I'm glad that at least they've dealt with the 13th stuff now rather than much later. They even mentioned Igeyorhm, the Ascian who fumbled their first attempt at a rejoining. Still makes me wonder where the remaining Ascians are though. I suspect moving forward they'll be playing a significantly minor role to the story.

[@Lyn685]

I totally agree with your opinion on conflict in Dawntrail. You need that conflict, it is what has elevated ffxiv's story in the first place.

[@zephyr8072]

I 100% guarantee you the main conflict will revolve around another Zenos/Ran'jit character who fights us and declares victory in a rigged battle because he so stronk omg until finally going down like a punk near the end. Because Yoshi-P doesn't have a shred of originality left in him.

[@tideash]

I think Mike misunderstood where people are coming from with this particular bit. The problem is the scale of the conflict. The people who are saying that we had enough of world ending scenarios are not saying that the whole expansion should be about smelling flowers under the rainbow. The problem is that the conflicts are getting ridiculous Dragon Ball Z levels. How many times are we going to get just stronger and stronger and defeat godlike entities until we reach a point where wiping out a galaxy is just tuesday?Endsinger already threw planets at us and because of that Zeromus felt like there is not an actual threat. They had to pull a "battery low" on us to not just immediately mop the floor with it and it felt cheap af. What needs to happen sooner rather than later is to insanely nerf the WoL somehow and search for conflict in a more grounded way. With a nerfed WoL the possibilities are limitless for conflicts that are not world ending scenarios but still intense. Just imagine for example if the scions really do have a big arguement and actually fight each other on opposite sides and we have to pick a side. Without toning down the WoL this falls flat because there is no risk of us losing whatsoever unless they threw the whole planet in danger and they pull another Zenos out of their bum who is insanely strong for no apparent reason. But if the WoL is suddenly nerfed into oblivion, suddenly everything is dangerous and has high stakes without having the world ending for the 900th time. A single general or something like that could be threatening af once again. At some point this just needs to happen, and i would like it if it happens in dawntrail aka the new chapter, rather than continue being OP for another god knows how many years.

[@Lyn685]

Yoshi-P doesn't write the story bro@@zephyr8072

[@mstitek7679]

But we already know there will be conflict. Nothing world-ending, but it was revealed during the first fanfest.

[@Lyn685]

True, but there a lot of people who seem like they genuinely want Dawntrail to be the "Beach episode"@@mstitek7679

[@Silphiroth]

about the difficulty: almost anything else in the game has gotten so much easier over time that this Alliance Raid is way too braindead now. Especially Oschons big boy phase felt like they were joking. Longest and most obvious AOE indicators ever. So I highly disagree with Mike here. I play this game since is initial launch on PS3 in 2.0 and after Ivalice, the 24 men raids have gotten progressively easier where Nier was still an okay difficulty - the Tower aside. Those used to be fun and they just aren't anymore. Mike started in late Shadowbringers and never experienced new 24 Men on release day or pre nerfs. His take here is muddied a lot by that. It wasnt toxic when it used to be a bit more difficult and people still enjoyed doing them. Now it only caters to casuals, like way too much in this game

[@ruick78]

Dude anytime i see a allaince wipe crystal tower is always toxic

[@XieRH1988]

regarding the optional side content, there's been a lot more of such things since stormblood onwards, i.e. something that may have started in MSQ but then got relegated to side content and because it's in side content that may or may not be done, it can't "come back" to the MSQ. Main examples are Gaius and Omega, they both originated in MSQ but now are locked to side content (werlyt and 4.x raids) so if you look from the perspective of only MSQ, both of those entities seem to have indefinitely disappeared. Gaia at the very least has only ever appeared in the Eden raids with no prior MSQ introduction. This dichotomy over MSQ vs side content also led to things like how the 6.x patch content visited the 13th, yet NPCs who have a very strong historical association with the 13th (Cylva, Unukalhai) can't participate as they aren't canonized in MSQ. The most you get from them is a few lines of bonus dialogue. In FFXIV history, probably the only side content NPC to have gotten promoted from side content to full MSQ canon-recognition is Estinien.

[@japanmechanic-22]

The alliance raids are undertuned is the #1 issue. The difficulty is personal opinion, but the current fights don’t even run through the major mechanics you kill them so quickly. Even running it on release day, I killed lymlaen so quickly she didn’t even do her second knock back phase.

[@hobogray6385]

On the point where Mike talks about the aether flow between the first and the thirteenth, look at the O in the patch art. we've only seen one half of the cycle of aether in the animation in the CT observation deck, so I'm pretty sure it'll come back around to the first in a more permanent way than just the light-aether payload Zero got in part 2. It's going to be mostly leading into DT sure, but I bet the cycle will be addressed as well somewhere.

[@cynthiahembree3957]

I think the reason for it only being doable with light is because the crystal tower was used to channel it. Which would mostly be possible with light. I like to think of it like a prism

[@DonaldTurner]

Thanks Mike. despite all the rage to meme and glare at EW post.0 msq, I enjoyed the story. Yes, I wish for a eureka/bozja time filer, just the same, I really loved both 6.5 msq and the alliance story completion. both were, classic FF story, which is the main reason i Love FF. and with all the hate atm about EW, it almost feels like they are including 6.0 6.0 , the main story of the expac.. was mind blowingly good. it's really just the post .0 content folks aren't happy with, which is fine, but I wouldn't want anyone to miss 6.0 seeing "EW is worst.. blah blah"

[@melaniebiberger2191]

I think it will lead up to another expansion... Probably just not immediatly because i think the thematic is very close to Shadowbringers and Shadowbringers is still pretty recent

[@irisheartt]

Moving the light between the 1st and the 13th relied on the crystal tower in the 1st, cid's invention cannot do that by itself. So they would need something comparable to the crystal tower on the 13th to move darkness out of the void.

[@Icycrits]

Endwalker patch content is literally Heavensward patch content. Imagine if you viewed the events of post-Heavensward and went, "Wow! Who the hell were those weirdos? What a terrible filler arc," then they dropped Shadowbringers on us. They were just creating a boatload of plot threads for future expansions they'll be able to neatly tie into a little bow and blow us all away. Again.

[@sethharrison2284]

I think post EW struggled a bit because the story didn't really fit the patch format. Also, the new writer just had too tall of a task following up Ishikawa and 6.0. The actual text just wasn't written as well. Lacked subtly, intrigue, and was a bit stale at points. Major points were okay/good. Zero is a great character. Some interesting threads opened up for the future. I enjoyed it despite some shortcomings. But the side content stories have all been fantastic. Pandaemonium and Myths of the Realm are easily my favorite side content stories.

[@coolyeh1017]

@avengingfossil9674 She has her moments of subtleness but because they are character-building most people don't really notice until the big moment(s) arrive. However, she is very strong in developing characters and building up strong emotions from seemingly small or insignificant lines or cutscenes. The current writer though somewhat competent (he has done job quests like BRD and DNC, assisted in Bozja and Ivalice, and wrote Pandaemonium raid storylines) has too tall of a task and was not given enough room to flex his writing muscles due to the patch cadence.

[@Junebug89]

Yeah, I agree that the overall plot was basically fine but the character writing itself felt weaker than normal. I hope Dawntrail fares a bit better, maybe Ishikawa is more focused on overseeing things for that? I just hope her promotion doesn't actually hurt the story of the game.

[@dieCG]

I feel like the MSQ after Endwalkers is building up future story for when Y’stola said she would be looking into travel between the shards back in the patches after Shadowbringers.

[@KironX1]

Post Heavensward patches were also regarded as filler until 2 expansions later. People just need to chill, trust in the devs they claim to love, and let the game breath.

[@Spika94]

I really enjoyed the patch story. When I went through it, I really couldn't understand how people didn't enjoy it. I thought it was great. I mean, it wasn't peak story telling, but it was still great. And (spoiler) seeing the main villain of the patch story actually turning around and be the "good" guy was so refreshing. I was so sure even up to the very end they would pull some BS where he sacrificed himself to save Zero, because in stories the bad guy tends to be the bad guy and die, or turn good and then die somehow, but that's not how it played out, which I love.

[@Kuroganemk2]

Was a snooze fest for me, don't like any of the new characters.

[@joeyfromanimalcrossing]

i mean i'm sure people went 'pog he's a good guy just like the game from 30 years!' but its not refreshing especially for ff14 lol

[@enderfawx3063]

Issue I had with it was the 2-sided quality of the writing of Zero as a character. She's a great emotional foil for the warrior of light in the way that her nature as a denizen of the void is very narcissistic and transactional because helping others doesn't help you in the 13th. Also her perspectives on how much people look up to the warrior of light is interesting. Despite this, she's an absolute Mary Sue character; Half-voidsent, Half Human, all the upsides of both, none of the downsides of either. All the scions accept her with hardly any suspicion despite being both half-voidsent and formerly Zenos' avatar. She takes up pretty much the entirety of the story and essentially acts as the main character for 5 patches. She somehow knows the answer to the diplomatic relations between Garlemald and Radz-At-Han despite being in the source for like a week at most (AND THAT'S WITHOUT EVEN ACKNOWLEDGING SHE'S ACCOMPANIED BY A DRAGON WHO HAS BEEN AT THE HEAD OF A TRADE EMPIRE FOR 200+ YEARS.) She manages to take in a metric ton of light just because she felt like doing it and it does practically nothing to her despite being half-voidsent. And that's just with Zero. Some of the other characters had some pretty bad writing issues and so did some parts of the plot like Cid's ball mcguffins that can somehow transport energy between reflections with the crystal tower.

[@katomamundara8106]

People forget rescuing Azdaja will lead us towards Meracydia. May be a whole expansion but we'll get to Meracydia eventually. And that's going to set that up. Zero and Golbez and the First will lead to our eventual visit to a Third of the shards. We've now learned to breach regularly into two of the Shards, so now we're prepped for a third.

[@StormierNik]

Yknow what actually, I think the Void Arc (As in the arc in the void, not the alliance raid) is setup for the expansion *after* Dawntrail just like the warriors of darkness was setup for Shadowbringers after Stormblood. Not only does it fit things the same way, but Shadowbringers had you forced to do the Crystal Tower alliance raid. I could see the expansion after Dawntrail forcing you to do the Eden raids. It suits the timing of everything and its involvement. Additionally, guess what else happened during these patches? The Manderville Relic weapons. I think that, at the same time, was gauging player response to content being locked behind another set of content. Because they might want to do that thing more often in the future, or even with the MSQ itself. And honestly, I'm more for Alliance raids and Normal raids to be more mandatory. That's like the core content of the game, and they're built for people to finish quite easily.

[@VideogamesPang]

You never experienced what old Alliance Raids were like on release, so you'll never understand. They didn't use to be THIS weak. It's not a case of people unfairly expecting high challenge from casual content, otherwise you'd see the same complaints for dungeons. It's that this is content that has been MADE easier over time. The whole idea of the 24-man format is that you can do slightly more difficult mechanics than say a dungeon, because responsibility is more spread out. It doesn't matter if a few players are bottom of the barrel, as long as a critical mass of the group can do the fight, everyone gets to clear. Hauling a team through bosses like Forgall, Ozma, Hashmal, Construct 7, TG Cid, was a huge part of the fun of alliance raids and now that's just gone. You say that's "not what people are there for" but IT WAS and you are just assuming it's not because you never saw it. If you had been there with us you would get why people aren't happy with the Myths raids. It's not fair to compare it to WoW LFR because FF doesn't have WoW's scaling difficulty options. We can't just walk into the Extreme version of an Alliance Raid if we are unhappy with the difficulty. Imagine if WoW stopped doing Normal and Heroic difficulty, the only options were LFR and Mythic, and then saying that people unhappy with LFR being too easy shouldn't complain because it's casual level content meant for everyone and just do Mythic if you want hard stuff.

[@AquariusScanner]

Completely agree. Mike has no real experience in raid difficulty to be talking about this like he understands the player expectation. He didn't even see delubrum reginae.

[@daasnahk5058]

I'm confused didn't Preach do the last alliance raid on release? And he loved wiping if I recall correctly.

[@MsNefelim]

He meant the whole raid series

[@DarkHawkeLP]

I feel this post MSQ MSQ is just like many ARR things pay off in a few expansions. Especially as i have the feeling Dawntrail will also be a setup expansion like ARR. So overall I feel like we might move from the "Hyda and zodiark saga" to the "Shards saga"

[@Draylin41]

From the little we know about Dawntrail it seems very much inspired by Treasures of Aht Urhgan, an FF11 expansion. That was also a bit of a slow starting story with not a clear conflict when you first arrive in a rather beautiful city for an expansion released in 2006. It quickly turned into a territorial dispute with Beastmen invading a section of the city regularly in and event called Besieged. I can see a similar story beat unfolding likely by the time we get to Dawntrail's first Trial fight so not even halfway through 7.0 we'll have some sort of conflict that isn't the festive stuff we see through most of the cgi trailer.

[@icedragon4008]

15:00 Remind me to check back here when 7.5 drops in 2026.

[@nerothos640]

There's really two part of Endwalker : 6.0 which for me is Endwalker and post MSQ which isn't Endwalker but an interlude/intermission (the unique position as EW post MSQ make it a bit weird but it should be a thing on its own). It's more like a sidestory "DLC".

[@septonyte]

There is still a bit more MSQ in 5.5 part two incoming. That is usually the part with the "hook" to the expansion.

[@condragon2251]

I don't think anybody is asking for there to be zero conflict, just that we'd like the conflict to be smaller scale and more personal to the characters as opposed to yet another world ending threat

[@ruick78]

I that sounds like dawntrail will be. As yoshi p said, we are going to pull back the world ending conflict as it is like a never-ending chain. I do believe we will lesser like this just going effect the new world, not like all Eorzea, Kugan and Islabard ect. It like hey this guy is apart tournament of kings and he wanting access idk royal chambers as their artifact or simply hunger for power. As we know the new world magic *according to blue mages* is very different to that of Eorzeas.

[@zephyr8072]

I predict some dull nativist nonsense where we protect them from evil colonisers. Basically Stormblood all over again, only with Aztec style savages instead of Ala Mhigan terrorists.

[@DemonLordSparda]

If people felt dealing with the Thirteenth was filler I can just imagine how upset they'd be if we had to deal with rogue pirates or black market dealers.

[@AuspexAO]

We already know there's a struggle going on for the crown that we are specifically involved in. The trailer shows us fighting a giant dude. I think the internet is just so stupid that they hear the "beach episode" jokes and you see the tears immediately start to form in the Edgelords' eyes. "Wait, no fighting? No cool swords!? Waaaaah!" It's ok babies. It's ok. You'll get your candy! Just let the grown ups have the necessary rising action we need to find the action satisfying. Go back to sleep and we'll wake you up when the fighting starts. Shhh shh shhh. Shh shh shhh. I feel sooo bad for the writers of this game to have such fickle fans. FFXIV fans start booing before they have even drawn the f@#$ing curtain, lol.

[@Peashooter521]

@@DemonLordSparda people call the zero plot filler because its just a worse version of final fantasy 4 starring Original the Character instead of Cecil.

[@fayte0618]

Post expansion msq this time is a setup. I think people didnt like there are no twists. Its a straightforward story for building up Zero as a character. Also, internally i read post patch stories are written by new team members so may be thats why its too safe narratively

[@Freeasacar]

Even though I ended up liking her character if I met Zero in real life I'd laugh at her dumb name and fedora hat tips. It's like she belongs in a Devil May Cry game from 20 years ago yet her character was played completely straight. The MSQ also revealed that every remaining shard has a massive pool of aether on their moons now that we've killed Zodiark which could be used by any hero or villain to cause more conflicts. Not even mentioning Meracydia it's impressive how much story they've set up for the future while still retaining some mysteries to keep us guessing.

[@korrul]

I think this patch also completes the "opportunity for players to learn about events, terms and concepts" for future players for whom 6.0 will be a starting point

[@keremcantarhan]

I've enjoyed the Alliance Raid story a lot but much like you were annoyed with lack of certain interactions in the MSQ, I was somewhat frustrated that when Deryk was telling us about the people the Twelve were, there was no mention of our knowledge and connection to those places and people. And in this case, there isn't even a reason like that knowledge being side content.

[@khinzaw77]

It's like the Warrior of Darkness questline in HW for now. People thought that was weird filler back then too. Only in Shadowbringers did it come full circle. I have no doubt this stuff will be worked into future story. As for the alliance raid being too easy, I definitely felt that this particular one was. Most alliance raids can kill me at least once on first go, but this one just didn't ever. I don't want them to be hard, but I don't want them to be completely braindead trivial either. Orbonne was beloved for a reason, and it was difficult by alliance raid standards. Not to the pants shitting level of Ozma at launch, but it wasn't trivial. No alliance raid so far has gotten to that peak imo, story content aside.

[@AuspexAO]

Alliance Raids are catchup and aren't really supposed to be challenging. They're spectacle raids. Sure, we all sometimes died to mechanics in earlier raids going in blind, but it's not like we died on the second or third time. I feel like people complaining about difficulty in FFXIV is the start of a problem that's more significant than one raid. We took in a LOT of new players during COVID and the demographic has shifted. The Edgelord faction is a lot stronger now and they want HARDCORE CONTENT. Personally, that's not why I play the game and I know a lot of original players don't either. Savage raids and ultimates are there to scratch that itch. I guess the devs will have to decide if we're going to make this game World of Warcraft or stay FFXIV. One thing I know about HARCORE GAMERS is that they're a pack of filthy liars. I used to do high mythic keys in WoW and hardly any players were capable of the challenge. Plus, it took tons of add-ons, PLUS it was stressful and HATEFUL. Like those people are fond of saying "it was a filter" and no one really cared if you passed or failed because it's just a stupid game. If people want FFXIV to be this, fine, but I think pandering to those people will ruin any game. Games are meant to be fun. Get challenge from your life and improve your mind and body with difficult endeavors. Being great at games is fine and all, but I think people who seek glory in a fake world are doing so because they don't have very fulfilling lives outside of the internet.

[@khinzaw77]

@@AuspexAO Way to just completely hyperbolize what I was saying. Don't know why you have such a chip on your shoulder, but I literally just said I felt it was a bit too easy, and that Orbonne at launch is around the difficulty I want. Not trivial, but not hard either. This raid series has gotten easier with each new entry. Aglaia was pretty enjoyable for me, then Euphrosyne was a bit easier but still enjoyable, but Theleia was actually braindead simple. You aren't punished really at all for messing up and you have so much time to move for every mechanic. It's a completely toothless raid and I don't find that enjoyable. Literally on day 1 people were pushing mechanics on bosses. That shouldn't happen imo. Especially when the others in the same series were more stimulating.

[@Junebug89]

@@AuspexAO No one wants alliance raids to be at the difficulty of extremes or whatever, just a little more threatening than they are. I actually still find the Nier raids to be in a fairly good place in this sense. Aglaia was nice although maybe a *little* too easy at launch, but I was completely willing to forgive that for the amazing atmosphere and spectacle.

[@Barnuses]

It's only filler if it has no effect on the main story. There are huge implications brought up in the story so it makes it seem as though they have plans to do something with it. If you don't like the story that's fine, but it seems weird to try and write it off as filler just because you don't know where it's going. I personally get FFXI's Seekers of Adoulin vibes from Dawntrail because of the colonization of a land to the west. Heck, Sajj'aka from Seekers of Adoulin kind of looks like a mix between Azdaja and Hraesvelgr, and he was also rescued from a dark realm. So who knows, after evoking the Eureka again with adding Eureka Orthos, maybe they are going to lead this story into more FFXI references beyond Eureka. Though, they've already used Hades in the story, but he did mention the New World before he returned to the Aethereal Sea.

[@Reinshark]

I appreciate your takes! A few thoughts: I agree that Alliance Raids don't need to be "difficult". That said, I had some of the most fun I've ever had in the new AR during my first run, going through blind. I don't normally play healer, but I do for ARs, and during the last boss I figured out the mechanics a little faster than the rest of my party, which led to me being the ONLY player alive for a short while. Getting the rest of my group up, one by one, and slowly hanging on (while tossing the occasional heal out to the other parties in the Alliance) was a GREAT test of my skill at the game. Regarding Gaia: I agree that more mention of her would have been nice, but I wasn't surprised with the way they handled it. The WoL is canonically taciturn, so us not asking about her "made sense" from that perspective, and when our aim is a diplomatic mission it wouldn't make sense to drag the less-than-polite Gaia along with us. More to the point, though, this is how they HAVE to handle "optional" content references, for better or worse: not everyone will have played it, so they can't force in references that many wouldn't get, or program totally branching paths. Giving us a voiced scene with Gaia was a nice bonus in that regard. And regarding why we can't beam darkness back into the First: They didn't spell this out very clearly, but the implication is that the "wall of light" in the First is very concentrated aether, and we were only able to get it started into the "beam" with the aid of Ryne's abilities as the Oracle of Light. The darkness that permeates the Thirteenth isn't in a similarly concentrated form-which is why the memoria crystal containing Zeromus (the Thirteenth's shard of Zodiark) is such a valuable way to transport that energy.

[@tetrahedron_in_space]

I think a large part of the noise about Endwalker has to, ironically, do with the game’s success in 2020-2021 where FFXIV became the free trial meme. So much of each patch’s content this expansion has been devoted to cleaning up all of the old environments, dungeons especially, specifically with the Trust system. Couple this with any delays in Endwalker’s development due to COVID in 2020 and 2021 and part of the mixed reception can be explained. That being said, EW was my first “true” FFXIV experience; I played during Stormblood and Shadowbringers but never raided or did any late game content. So for me, EW has been a rewarding, fun time.

[@BorgWolf359]

I agree with ya! I think Zero/Golbez & the 1st/13th will definitely come back! The Dragons are going to be brought back because when Vrtra & Azdaja roared other roars could be heard returning that call! The Moon will come into to play with portal travel because Zeromus weakened the walls between worlds there! I am stoked for all the fun things to come with DawnTrail!!!

[@Daistis]

honestly glad to hear some reasonable and original takes, the things people are parroting right now are honestly hard to listen to without rolling my eyes

[@luchts4547]

I remember back in post-patch Heavensward content I thought the whole "Warriors of Darkness" thing was just filler and a convenient way to put Minfillia to bed. Given what happens I agree it's outrageous to think there won't be big Zero/13th content in the future.

[@Colaschnittchen]

The alliance raid story is so much stronger then the msq

[@zephyr8072]

Which isn't really saying much. It's inoffensive at least, though it was rather predictable that the 12 would turn out to essentially be glorified uncorrupted primals. All that said, Pandaemonium beats them both.

[@coolyeh1017]

@@zephyr8072 Because what is interesting is that the same writer who did Pandaemonium also did the post-EW MSQ. Likely I think the patch cadence doesn't suit his style as you can be a good writer but suffer due to outside circumstances.

[@geek593]

@@zephyr8072 Pandaemonium fell off a cliff in the third act. It was such a slapdash wrap up to what had been set up as something much more interesting.

[@zephyr8072]

@@coolyeh1017 That's honestly surprising. I honestly wonder if the writer was hobbled by the forced FFIV references, whereas Pandaemonium was entirely about the Ancients with zero references (actually surprising there wasn't one ref to FFII).

[@coolyeh1017]

@@zephyr8072 there are many references to FFII in Pandemonium but they are a bit more subtle. The plot and journey of Athena is similar to The Emperor's heaven and hell personas (The Emperor desires to be a god but split himself into two halves sort of what happened with Lahabrea), in P10 the raidwide cast, Ultima, is the same animation as FFII's Ultima, the contrast of Eric and Lahabrea is a similar dynamic with certain characters in FFII. I don't think the post MSQ is bad but it is definitely a tall act to follow from Ishikawa's style of writing even if she is just supervising the team. Knowing the ending they definitely left some loose threads to return to, perhaps in some sort of restoration like content, relic grind, or a part of a future MSQ involving the other shards (there are five unexplored ones). I think that the storyline was hurt by trying to stretch out all of 6.1-6.5 as normally the next expac set up would be two patches and and the previous still on going until x.3. But EW ended the MSQ in 6.0.

[@tangentkatz]

I think people are using the word “filler” more because of how it made them feel rather than it factually being filler. I enjoyed the first 2 patches because they left me with questions/introduced new content. It felt like 6.3 on was showing Zero around and her learning….about things and themes that have already been done to death in the game. It stopped being new. I had no questions other than what would be the same/different in the FF4 references. I don’t think the 6.X patches were filler plot wise; I just think they were boring and didn’t leave me wanting more or with questions I needed answered.

[@kfarc9687]

I think that 6.3 being more of a "Zero explores the world" wasn't the problem in itself. But how little meanigfull story progres was made in 6.4 which came right after made it feel slower than it had to be. If 6.3 and 6.4 were combined, I think we would have a story with better pace.

[@AvRiku]

Funny enough Ryne mentions Gaia on the npc follow part of the quest chain as optional dialogue. in Elumore. So shes mentioned twice!

[@brianreck5971]

I hadnt done eden prior to finishing 6.5, and didn't get that cutscene with Gaia

[@mavfin8720]

Well, after Heavensward, we saw Ardbert and friends. Two expansions later, there they were. Could happen again...or not. Only time will tell.

[@thecrowonyourshoulder]

I sure hope the void ark series will be a MSQ requirement soon because its all about the void. The history of the 5th Umbral era was crazy, and also the void was mentioned in ALL of the expansions, including A Realm Reborn. I think the void is going to be one of the last expansions for FF14 because it keeps tabs with us. Its for sure going to be something.

[@rengreeneyes]

I'm leaning towards all this being the basis of a future expansion. But even if it isn't, it can still be a story that pokes its head out every now and then during patches. Turning the 1st and 13th back to normal was never going to be a short story. Heck, it took a whole expansion and raid series to get as far as we have on the 1st. When we go to Meracydia, Azdaja is going for sure going to play a part.

[@maracaegrizzley8734]

I'm now even MORE curious about Zero's mother, who and what she was and what happened to her. And I wonder about who the actual Golbez was. And whether either of them, Zero or Golbez, were the Thirteenth's shard of Azem. Given the resonances with the crystal, I really *wonder* about the actual Golbez. And anyone else see shades of Krile in the way Zero was spared the destruction of the Thirteenth? Specifically how Hydaelyn protected Krile from the destruction of the Isle of Val. Just the sort of thing that makes me very curious.

[@indaDark]

sou, in the filler of arr we hear about ala migo and othard, stromblood happens one expansion later heavensward filler was the heroes of darknes, shadowbringers happens one expansion later stormblood starts with the war in garlemald and we there in endwalker so what happens on filler, comes back one expansion later

[@Ironysandwich]

I'm pretty sure you missed the point on that question about conflict. Obviously the story needs a conflict, the point is that it doesn't need to be some massive, world-ending, somehow even bigger than the annihilation of the entire universe that we got in the last expansion, scale of conflict. Conflict does not have to be a constant escalation of stakes, to feel meaningful. On the contrary, that's one of the fastest ways to render it meaningless. If every threat is fate-of-the-world serious, then threats just don't mean anything anymore. See: WOW. Dawntrail is a reset. It's an opportunity to take the story back down to the scale of the character themselves, and their friend, and the region they're in. We already know there's a succession crisis, and this is ff14 so of course there will be something more to that than is immediately apparent, but I genuinely think they're too good of story tellers to not understand that lowering the stakes at this point will make for a better storyline in the long run.

[@luxsignifer6996]

We have the scions beyond the rift: zero, ryne, gaia, taynor and unukalhai. I'd pay for that. Also, as I see it, for a two-way line between the 1st and the 13th we would need a crystal tower in the 13th, since that is the device pushing the light from the 1st into the 13th.

[@Orchested]

I dont know. As others said, at the moment the warriors of darkness arc felt like filler, but it ended being so important for shadowbringers, so who knows. They finished a great story with endwalker, so there is the doubt if they can do someting as good or better than that in the future. I dont have many expectations because of that, but still, i wanna see how they keep going with the story

[@fjordexplorer9062]

It’s an interesting and conflicting feeling, because 6.5 did enough for me to get really get excited/confident about a bunch of seeds being planted by the writers for the future. For me, where Zero and Golbez ended up in their arcs feels satisfying as well. *However*, an unintended (?) consequence of all the cameos on the First had me suddenly realize I was way more engaged talking with everyone there than I had been in other scenarios over this patch cycle for a while. In short, I still cared for most characters in the First-MSQ to raid series to side characters-noticeably more than our new 6.x characters, even multiple patches in. Near the climax of the patch, I even realized I had ended up kind of distracted during Zero’s ‘Big Damn Hero’ moment! All this to say that all the comparisons/anticipation for an analogous Warriors of Darkness arc is completely valid! However, some of the character and moment-to-moment writing through this patch cycle feels like a real regression to me. To torture a metaphor, It’s not just about the destination, or the vision of the destination in the distance, but also the journey itself. All in all, a good problem for an MMO to have!😅

[@Ramotttholl]

I believe 6.55 will cause a devide between the scions. As from what i understand with Dawntrail they kinda split into 2 parties over some disagreement

[@natebroadus8474]

My guess is, 8.0 is the 13th/Return to the 1st expansion, and all this post-content will end up like the Warriors of Darkness storyline: reassessed and reexamined with more context.

[@DennisShadows]

I think there will be conflict, but I don't think there will be as large as us going to end of the universe. It will probably be something more akin of scale to Base ARR or Stormblood

[@east3rcat]

With the taste we got with the EW patch, I look forward to seeing how they resolve the imbalance of light/dark in the 1st and 13th