FFXIV's Pandaemonium Has BLOWN MY MIND

[@Oppurtunafish]

people tend to forget that the first tier of a raid is always like this, its all setup. The stories are generally quite weak until theyre finished, and we get all the payoffs of what has been established before.. Great to hear your thoughts, Matt! its great to see this kind of video for FF from you guys

[@davecarlson505]

The first tier of Alexander was so boring that it wasn't until a year after I finished it that I realized there were two more tiers left to complete. And then...well...we all know how that turned out (brilliantly!).

[@khinzaw77]

I think Eden set up a lot more in the first phase. We visibly saw the impact of our actions in shaping the First and it set up the Oracle of Darkness. Not saying it won't end up fantastic, but there was definitely more to the first tier story wise with Eden.

[@vaan_]

Nah, this is very clearly undercooked compared to other raid tiers. It feels like a complete step back compared to Eden and Omega when it comes to pacing and music. It's very obvious that they didn't put as much resources into the development of this, the same way they delayed Ultimate to 6.1 to get the expansion done, this content probably also got the short end of the stick. Hopefully 2nd tier will be better, but this one is probably the worst since Heavensward.

[@Caursten]

Omega had a massive buildup from the end of Dragonsong going into Stormblood so it was much easier to build that up. Eden has the whole of The First, we are restoring balance to the planet after it was washed in light and lost the other elements, the entire MSQ of Shadowbringers. Pandaemonium is only a small part of a small portion of one area of the MSQ in Endwalker (Elpis) that we don't even hear about once during the entirety of the MSQ. Having said that, I agree with you. The opening tier into Pandaemonium is much weaker than the previous two, which I attribute to the build up from the previous content; Omega and Shinryu, Eden and The First's light flood. I am also really hoping they open up the story a lot more in the next two tiers. I blame Covid and the working protocols around it for some of the lack we are seeing in Endwalker. Yoshi P has talked about this a few times. I really like the Lahabrea tie in and want to see where that goes.

[@specialnewb9821]

@@Caursten If it's undercooked raid v. devs getting covid that is not even a choice.

[@mjs3188]

I'm still convinced the Heart of Sabik is in Pandaemonium somewhere. Lahabread knew the most about it, said it predated the Allagans and even they couldn't figure it out. It's also like the only loose end from the Hydaelyn/Zodiark story.

[@Froggsroxx]

Oh my god yes I was waiting for it to come up in msq, and when it didn't I was like "nah man it's coming just wait!"

[@lordmawkish1286]

I really hope it does! I can't wait another ten years to find out what the damn heart is, lol.

[@danilooliveira6580]

I always assumed it had something to do with Omega or ultima, basically an alien artifact.

[@TheoVorster]

That would be neat, the Heart of Sabik (along with Zenos' reoccurring dream in 5.2, that Fandaniel commented on "could Emet-Selch have found a way...", and Elidibus previously referring to Zenos as a “an irreplaceable test subject” during the end of 4.0 Stormblood) are definitely the biggest major unresolved plot threads remaining after 6.0 Endwalker.

[@Er404ChannelNotFound]

It's also the one phrase the OST made sure we hear the most XD I'm not sure if that's even relevant lol but the orchestral version of Ultima's theme has the choir say "Heart of Sabik" and that's been used in both Sorrow of Werlyt's bosses and for Endsinger's 1st phase (which incorporates sections from the final boss' trials' music for all the 4 prior expansions).

[@stayfrnds3701]

Pandaemonium being derived from "Paradise lost" and the previous raid being Eden which has the achievement "Paradise Found". Had looked into what Pandaemonium was before this video and was surprised to see a connection. Very interested to see what else they do with the raids.

[@jacobb5484]

Imagine if they manage to mix Eden and Pandaemonium into one cohesive story!

[@stayfrnds3701]

@@jacobb5484 Oooh, an interesting idea. I would not be too surprised if they did, because I now think they've planned this out a fair bit. But i will be amazing still.

[@ayotrippin]

Thematically, Paradise Lost is everywhere in this story, but there's an especially forward reference to it in the Sephirot theme. Part of the theme says, "Better to serve in a waking nightmare, than rule in their paradise." which is an inversion of Milton's "Better to rule in Hell, than serve in Heaven."

[@mortaneus]

So, there are statues of the three-headed snake boss from Ktisis all over the place in Pandaemonium. Meaning, someone there is *really* proud of the concept that Emet and Hythlo spent the entire fight demeaning and talking shit about, ending with Hythlo saying that he wouldn't approve it if submitted. I found that hilarious.

[@Er404ChannelNotFound]

Way I saw it, as soon as Ericthonios mentioned being Lahabrea's son, I figured out that Lahabrea's real name must be Hephaestus, but then it brought to mind all of our encounters with him in ARR and HW, and I wasn't sure how it all would fit. Then once Eric gave us a piece of his personal philosophy it became obvious, that chances are, HE is going to become the Lahabrea that we're all familiar with. The raid story is going to be a microcosm that mirrors some of Endwalker's overall story, which includes the question: How can someone as nice and seemingly motivated by the good of others end up like Fandaniel? Likewise is the Eric we've just met and enjoyed the company of going to undergo such changes through his future trials and tribulations?

[@tciddados]

For Themis/Elidibus's involvement: In 5.3 when he talks about his desire to steer the planet on its true course, he says "This I swore, to... to someone...", my current assumption with where his involvement in Pandaemonium is going is that he isn't so much involved with the raid's events himself, but his involvement in resolving it will serve to give him the conviction to carry out the role of Zodiark's heart, and that it's even possible that we the player are actually the person he was talking about swearing to in 5.3, if he resolves himself during Pandaemonium. For the rest of the vid, it's pretty close to what I had come up with too, wrt Laha's attempt to resurrect his dead wife. One thing I was surprised you didn't touch on was the blacksmith 90 quest that has some pretty ominous text in it that's likely connected to pandaemonium, with the talk of serpents + quaking (likely the "sound that came from the earth" which I assume came from pandaemonium in the final days).

[@cosmosofinfinity]

Damn, I guess I gotta level a crafter then

[@SpectraLight]

YES one of the first things I hoped when first finding out he was gonna be a part of the raid is "I wonder if we're the someone he is going to swear his duty to?!" in some form or another. Would be so cool!

[@Advon]

If it hadn't shown up, I would have posted about the swearing, given how "Steering the star along its true course" is just a little off from the Ascian's real duties. It especially makes sense given he refused to refresh his memories, waving off Emet-selch's worries with a platitude about duty. Almost as if forgetting was part of that duty. Which would make sense since we're terrible at keeping the time travel secret and our past life even seems aware of our presence.

[@HealingBlight]

If he is associated with Azim and Venat, then he might have been either part of or aware of those plans, so his promise of the true course remains the same, but the tempering of zodiark has warped him. Was Loghrif's decision to not become Zodiark as simple as Mitron's convincing, or did Elidibus/Hydalin faction steer things that way? Jesus christ, during that 5.3 fight, as far as he knew, he was the last of the unsundered, he just saw Emet-Selch betray him, is remembering a malformed promise he made to the person he is fighting and dies 'a failure', he last thought being "The rains have ceased. And we have been graced with another beautiful day. But you are not here to see it." how the hell do they turn an already tragic character into an even more heartbreaking one.

[@Simplemalk]

I feel like it's very likely that the current Lahabrea will die. This is Greek based so tragedy is such an integral part of Greek stories. So I think that the tragedy will be doubly so, a son forced to kill his father. Then our realization that in the future that son who has become our friend will end up losing his mind and following in the footsteps of his father.

[@srdragan317]

yep i think the same and even more now that his name have the meaning of snake bait in my language we say that for ppl who betray us so i think Something will happen that will push the son of lahbrea to betray us maybe after discovering that we want to kill his mother even if it's not really her and join his father but in the end we win and kill her and lahabrea witch push him into madness and later in the future it's him that we kill

[@lordmawkish1286]

This is what I expected when I played the story as well! I think it's a solid path for them to take, and it's gonna be really sad indeed.

[@ogrimbothesour2976]

I had the exact same thought! kudos!

[@watchm4ker]

As soon as the connection was mentioned - that Athena was the prior Lahabrea, and that their son had not only followed suit as a warden of Pandaemonium, but hated the fact that his father wasn't taking his job seriously - unlike *him* - I immediatly said, "Well, looks like we need a new Lahabre-- *pause* SONOFA--!"

[@TheoVorster]

That's an interesting theory, but I think it's already discounted by the fact (as mentioned in the video) that the Lahabrea the WoL knew was (as per the Tales from the Shadows short stories) the creator of Phoenix and many other fire creations; and as shown in the Pandæmonium raids, the dialogue regarding the Phoinix indicates that the current Lahabrea (during the time period of the raids) is the one who created/is making Phoenix. So it's more likely that Erichthonios' father is the Lahabrea the WoL knew, and like Matt said in the video was very likely named Hephaestus.

[@TheWcasey]

I just love they keep expanding on the "villains" characters after they have been dealt with. Showing the different sides of them and how in a different age under different circumstances they would have been such great friends to have around and active in story.

[@ArchangeVie]

Yeah that’s why I think they didn’t kill off any scions in ew bc we already lost all of our friends, it’s just that they’re the ancients

[@Nirual86]

In fairness Lahabrea needed this more than just about anyone. Though ShB certainly gave us a lot more context to his seemingly stereotypical mad villain dialogue already.

[@ArchangeVie]

@@Nirual86 well I don’t know if you played pandaemonium yet if you haven’t don’t read this I guess But it’s fkn Hilarious to me how even tho he maybe wasn’t straight up evil he was still known as a dick back in his time 😂 I was like “Hah I knew he was still an asshole before the sundering too” compared to elidibus and emet who still were like able regardless

[@celfhelp]

@@ArchangeVie the absolute best part is that they opened the door for ancient characters to be reborn down the road, which will 100% happen

[@celfhelp]

the japanese are kings/queens of humanizing "villain" characters and making them relatable without being ham-fisted

[@PetarBladeStrok]

Athena wasn't the previous Lahabrea. She was just the previous Keywarden of Pandaemonium. BTW. I have a feeling that Erichthonios' father will die and that he will become Lahabrea that we fought in ARR and HW.

[@Snakester789]

Glad i'm not the only one. I'm pretty conviced that Erichthonios is our Lahabrea too just based on the fact that his boss form has the mask and the 'trend' of having us sympathise with the ascians in the more recent expacs.

[@PetarBladeStrok]

@@Snakester789 Yup. He's being developed as a character for a good reason.

[@hensem4891]

athena is previous keywarden then become previous lahabrea also

[@zebrion5793]

I think that this has some merit, but he would have recognized us in ARR immediately. Knowing that he met with us in the past, the "present" version of Lahabrea would have realized that his efforts to kill us wouldn't have worked. They'd have to square that in the story somehow.

[@BroadwayRonMexico]

@@zebrion5793 It's clear he's gone a bit crazy in the 10,000 years between. It's not a stretch to think he might have forgotten your name and what you actually look like Emet-Selch had long considered the burden of remembrance to be his alone for some time

[@Meltyclaw]

I think you're on the mark with this one. The revelation you made from the connections in real history was mind blowing. It would explain why the hippocampus was there, tying to memory, and Phionix. Phionix for rebirth and hippocampus to bring Athenas memories back. It'd be a great story if that's the direction they're going

[@orenji]

Hippocampus in Greek lore was a seahorse creature as well. It’s not just tied to the brain or memory.

[@DestructoMonkey]

the interconnectedness and literary homages woven into FFXIV at all levels, from main content to side content to side stories not even in the game, is something that must gratify any lorehound to bits XIV's writing crew is a massive credit to the game

[@Nirual86]

And yet at the same time they are not afraid of putting their own spin on things. While these connections are clear to see I doubt it'll go down exactly like we're expecting from that setup.

[@Vaeltis]

Matt is having the time of his life with all of these

[@Lordoftheapes79]

I think one answer we're going to get out of this raid series is how Lahabrea, Elidibus, and Emet-Selch remained unsundered.

[@nathanprime2434]

Why? The sundering is happening far into the future. Why would they be related?

[@Frostwisperer]

Not sure about lahabrea or emet-selch, but elidibus was probably an unsundered because he became the core for zodiark. In other words he WAS zodiark. When hydaelyn/venat defeated zodiark, she imprisoned him on the moon. Zodiark himself remained whole, but I think he may have lost some of his powers to the Sundering, (don't quote me on that) the lack of which kept him from shattering the magical protections placed on the moon by hydaelyn. If this is true its safe to assume that venat was a 4th unsundered because she became hydaelyn. Elidibus; however, said that he withdrew himself from zodiark and then took up the mantle of an ascian, which further proves that him becoming zodiark was probably what allowed him to remain unsundered.

[@patheticbadger3478]

@@Frostwisperer Zodiark was split in 14 but Elidibus being the heart of Zodiark might have come out unscathed counting as one the 14 "parts" of Zodiark (the heart). As for Emet, maybe because of the huge amount of aether he has, he some how managed to come out unscathed as well. And for LaHeebread I have zero clue.

[@Frostwisperer]

@@patheticbadger3478 yea, that is definitely a sound theory for emet-selch. Perhaps the power of the lahee is what saved lahabrea XD

[@arof7605]

Following that idea, plus some theories from other threads: if the three of them ended up in Pandemonium (or related area), safe from the sundering, and the Heart of Sabik comes from here like others speculate, then it would explain why it was so damn powerful. It would be the only unsundered energy source in existence.

[@LethalChickenFTW]

Matt, and a lot of other people, seem to be under the impression that Athena was the previous Lahabrea, but I think they have misread the dialogue with Erichthonios. Erichthonios says that his mother used to be the chief keyward of Pandaemonium and that when she passed Lahabrea took over those responsibilities, the responsibility of chief keyward, not the seat of Lahabrea. If Athena did hold a seat on the convocation I would have expected it to be Igeyorhm, because of the relation we see between her and Lahabrea in Heavensward.

[@lampdevil]

Fantastic video, great research! One thing I also want to bring up, since you brought up Venat early on RE: the one who made mankind fall, I've seen it said that the FFXII localization turned "Venas/Venus/Benasu" into "Venat" when working on the names of the Occuria. Venus > morning star > Lucifer! Ha ha! But there's plainly lots of room in these sorts of stories for Lucifer-type figures, so I'm perfectly happy to have more of them.

[@bellulargaming9515]

I had this same thought just after finishing this video! Venus is the Goddess of Love, but can also be called Lucifer. Therefore, Venat is a version of Lucifer who made mankind fall, not out of spite or envy, but out of love. It's cliche, but it's really, really satisfying!

[@sqidvishus]

Fantastic job, Matt. Thank you for your thoughts and theories. I think you hit the mark.

[@jamib7970]

I’m holding on to the idea that struck me on Day One of the raid. Endwalker built on foundations laid in Shadowbringers and worked to make our WOLs feel more connected to/invested in Hades. I believe this raid is meant to do this for the rest of the Unsundered. Themis is Elidibus. Elidibus’ Japanese VA is very distinct (Akira Ishida) and this is Themis’ voice. Lahabrea will probably a later boss in the raid, or be contained/die in a post raid scene. And after we build camaraderie with Erich through the story we will learn he becomes the next Lahabrea… the one who survived as an Unsundered and we fought through ARR and Heavensward. Greeks love their tragedy.

[@Nirual86]

same goes for the English VA. Maybe its not quite as distinct but that voice was clearly the same. I'm not sure Themis is Elidibus at this point but he'll most likely end up being raised to the seat later on. What we've seen from his backstory in ShB he was fairly young when he took on the role, which fits with Themis looking very young compared to just about any Ancient we've seen so far.

[@Scotia__]

@@Nirual86 White robes are only worn by the seat of Elidibus or Convocation members that retired but did not return to the star, like Venat. Emet states this is a bit of throwaway dialogue if you talk to him between quests.

[@Nirual86]

@@Scotia__ That can't be the whole picture, otherwise everybody would know who Themis is instantly (or at least, that he is far more important than he lets on). Maybe the white robe rule extends to people who directly work for Elidibus, the equivalent of a Words of Lahabrea Speaker and the like.

[@kuron8876]

Awesome video and I'm so glad he had fun researching all of this. One day I want to see a full document PDF version of all of Matt's ideas and theories he came up with. Even the scrapped ones!

[@ChrisMorray]

During Endwalker Elidibus even mentions seeing us in Elpis while having a headache. Then when we go there in Pandaemonium we give Themis a headache by landing on his head on arrival. Coincidence? I think not. But more importantly: Themis was told by Azem to look for a shooting star. Themis assumed this was us. So did Azem know we were coming, or are we meant to look for another shooting star?

[@castin7918]

Azem in this case being Venat iirc, not the current Azem

[@HadeaRin]

But I'm quite sure that Elidibus refers Venat as Venat since by the time he takes the seat of Elidibus the WoL Azem is already sitting there. Well, considering that Emet and Hythlo think that we're Azem's familiar that acted under their order or smth until we drop the bomb for being a time traveler, there is a chance that Elidibus made the same mistake and think we're moving under Azem's order or that our words equal Azem's words. We might even be the source of his fascination to Azem with the story of our journey and the real Azem doesn't help by punching a damn volcanoes to get some grapes. Elidibus got his memories of his Elpis days wrecked apart from being Zodiark's heart so it can happen.

[@ChrisMorray]

@@castin7918 ... No? We go back to around the same time, we don't go back further in the past. Either we go to post-MSQ Elpis and Venat has stepped down, or if we go there to pre-MSQ Elpis then Venat doesn't know who we are. Why did you think Venat was the Azem that Themis was referring to? Elidibus even comments on our resemblance to his friend.

[@ChrisMorray]

@@HadeaRin No, Elidibus is not referring to Venat, because Venat is not Azem anymore. Themis comments on our similarities to his friend, which is referring to the actual Azem. And the grape story is also something that already happened by the time we go to Elpis. It was referenced during the MSQ.

[@HadeaRin]

@@ChrisMorray isn't that what I basically said? That Elidibus refers Venat as Venat and not Azem....

[@patheticbadger3478]

I've probably huffed a little bit to much copium lately but personally i'd love for them to bring back Themis / Elidibus later on because I feel like there weren't enough of him in endwalker. Maybe his unsundered soul will reincarnate memories intact or something like that. Would be really cool to have him as an ally when we eventually return to the problem of the 13th and the void something which Unukalhai most definitely will play a part in, who himself have a conection to Elidibus.

[@ReddeSpectre]

I think that THIS is how Elidibus came upon the idea of Creating Warriors of Light to further the plans of the Ascians: Personal experience with us, as well as Azem, lead him to style himself as a Warrior of Light and to create them in order to balance power in the shards until the moment it needed to be tipped to cause a Rejoining. His time as the core of Zodiark, which (as we saw in Shadowbringers) caused him to forget much of his past, would be the reason why he doesn't recognize us when we first met in ARR. At least, I think that's what's happening here with him.

[@aladdict727]

There’s also something else interesting about the raid story. Azem basically told Themis to expect us.

[@Alovon]

Honestly I feel that Pandaemonium part 3 will return to the present relative to the Ancient Era Asphodelos and Abyssos will take place. The main reason I feel this is primarily because Lahabreha, Erichthonios, Themis/Elidibus won't get closure really due to the whole Final Days thing, yet we see *Ascian* Lahabreha on the cover for Pandaemonium. So I feel Pandaemonium Part 3 will take place in the modern day with us returning to Pandaemonium to slay the Dread Beast once and for all, Lahabreha having become one with it after his death and Elidibus returning to Pandaemonium to finish the job and send the crystals with the warning to us (Thinking the lower levels of Pandaemonium are tied to the Aetherical Sea, thus how "Dead" characters like Elidbus and Laha can return) And if Pandaemonium part 3 is called Anastasis, it would become even more fitting as it's Pandaemonium itself ressurecting in the modern day

[@Willias]

In a recent interview, Yoshi-P mentioned Emet-Selch still has a part to play. We might be dealing with several ascians.

[@reiss6559]

There is another "friend" of ours who was a test subject with vague memories of the past who merged with a mythical beast and came to be obsessed with an individual while harbouring contempt for everyone else... A neglected son whose mother died, who was resurrected, who ascended to and fell from heaven, who drank a sea of souls. A "ravenous beast." I have a feeling we may learn more about his origins before the end of Pandaemonium. Perhaps he, too, was a hemitheos.

[@Laenthal]

Since Zenos is basically a gamer impersonate, does that mean that at some point he will be portrayed as a miner or fisher main? :D

[@teteamaster]

this is a really interesting theory and very well researched. Love all the WoW refugee coming too FF and enjoy exploring all the lore and possibility so much bc everyone have their own potential to revise every detail there. i wish u nail the story raid when it's come out too!

[@noxelohim]

When we saw his spirit in the tower and he sends us to elpis, he also comments that he saw you there, then he grabs his head and says he didn't. And then that he did. He was genuinely confused and yet sure yiy had been there on elpis. As soon as I saw the cutscene of him looking over the edge, talking about something stirring down below, I knew the voice. That it was him. Nice to see him in a way that doesn't involve him stealing ardberts body or trying to find other ways to kill us.

[@dracorey]

I THINK YOURE ONTO SOMETHING, i did a little digging but i wish i had gone as deep as you, I'm sure there's more to unravel in this stars tale

[@RossMirage]

Here's one thing to consider too: Lahabrea referred to us as "Bringer of Light" during ARR. What if Azem's real name is Lucifer? We are the "Fallen Ancient" in his eyes, the First Rebel that left the Convocation and opposed all they stood for.

[@ketenrammklynk9073]

this was a well thought out and well written analysis of the first raid tier! I can't wait to see what you think of the following ones! I'll definitely be keeping this video in mind when I go through the newer parts in the future

[@NuckElBerg]

Great video Matt! I was kinda wondering what tied together the bosses of this tier thematically, but after watching your video, something clicked, and I came up with a plausible explanation; all the bosses represent historical/mythological ideas of how to become immortal. So, how does this work with each of the bosses so far? - P4 and P3 are pretty self-explanatory. Vampirism (ie P4 essentially being Dracula) and The Phoenix bird are two well-known examples of "cursed immortality", ie immortality with a significant drawback. - With P2, it gets a bit harder, but as you said, the hippocampus is the part of the brain where memories are stored. A famous idea for immortality is the concept of separating the memories from the body, thus allowing the body to be replaced, essentially achieving a form of immortality. Now, the boss in question is a sea-horse (the name hippocampus is derived from that part of the brain looking like a seahorse, thus being named after the ancient greek word for seahorse) with a head that is detached from its body (thus separating the "mind" from the "body"). - P1's boss is Erichthonios. Now, in itself, Erichthonios being a child of Lahabrea IS a classic human idea of immortality; the idea that having a continous bloodline (ie procreating) IS actually achieving immortality. Sure, you yourself die, but you pass on your legacy, ideas, etc., thus essentially being immortal in a sense. The other possible way to see it is a bit lamer imo, but it was said that Zeus was so impressed with Erichthonios that he raised him into the sky, becoming the constallation Charioteer (Auriga) after his death. Now, for some interesting speculation: - If immortality IS indeed the common theme of all bosses in Pandaemonium, a lot of the coming bosses would also be based on classical/mythological ideas of immortality. - The oldest story we know of of someone seeking immortality is... wait for it... The Epic of Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh's closest friend was Enkidu, a man raised by wild animals who eventually became enlightened (by having s*x with a prostitute, thus having many seeing him as sort of a precursor to Adam and Eve, ie going from being naïve and childlike through sexual awakening). After Enkidu's death, Gilgamesh traveled around the world, seeking immortality in order to rescurrect him. While he didn't succeed, since he is a famous character related to the idea of immortality (and rescurrecting a loved one), it's very possible that Gilgamesh (possibly even his origin story) will be part of Pandaemonium. - Immortality through the manipulation of time is a possibility, thus, it's not impossible that Lahabrea was the original author the Enigma Codex. Probably not as likely as Gilgamesh, but it could mean that an early version of Alexander could be a potential future boss. - There are probably more examples, but none that I can think of right now. Anyway, it'll be interesting to see where they take this story!

[@jstraziante]

Killer video Matt! A big theme I think we're going to explore in the raid story is why Venat chose to not sunder Elidibus and Lahabrea. We already got our Emet-Selch story, so why, after all Venat learned from us, did she also leave those two intact? I think we'll get our answers in Pandaemonium.

[@mimi-fk6dp]

Ohhh the idea about the parallels between Alphinaud & the Warrior of Light, and Elidibus & Azem... I hadn't thought about it, but now that you mention I can totally see it, that's really interesting.

[@roxylita10]

Loved this! Has anyone else noticed the parallels between Hesperos and Zenos? Zenos' obsession with the WoL sounds like Hesperos' obsession with Laha, and they both forsook their duties and reputations to be noticed by the object of their obsession, and they both end their own lives in the end. Severe speculation but I would love it if we found out that Zenos was a shard of Hesperos.

[@kippy657]

Assuming that Themis is Elidibus. I do wonder if it will create an additional leads or breakthroughs on restoring the 13th shard for Unukalhai.

[@liftea7304]

Another great lore video. Amazing job guys :) I'm so hyped for the other parts of the raid story because I absolutely love Elidibus' character.

[@PrinceDoobie]

Matt did a fucking killer job on this

[@Sydaron]

Matt I very much enjoy your thoughts and deep dive into the lore. My only thought that may differ and come into play would be: The beast of Pandaemonium locked away is there to keep a lid on Pandora's Box, Lahabrea is trying to re-open the box to resurrect Athena, but that may end up getting twisted (until the end) where Pandora comes in the form of Athena.

[@Owl90]

Hecking A video, man! Thank you for this quality content! There's nobody else doing this kind of FFXIV content with such high quality.

[@bryaneveritt9388]

I'm convinced that Daddy Lahabread ends up on the outs and Erich turns out to be the Lahabread we all know.

[@Lathernia]

I think Ericthonius will become "Lahabrea." Remember that it's just a title. And I think it's beautifully tragic if Ericthonius becomes Lahabrea and vows not to repeat his father's mistakes (trying to reclaim lost lives) only to become the cackling maniac who all know, who was obsessed with bringing back Zodiark, the unsundered world and everyone he knew. It is also very ironic that Lahabrea's scheming to unleash Bahamut on Eorzea ended up bringing to life the true Phoenix in Louisoix. Because Louisoix didn't try to revive the past, but to protect the present and the future, he was able to make Lahabrea's dream comes true: and used it as a weapon against Lahabrea.

[@galgotgame3376]

I feel like the end of this raid will show us how this perversion of creation magicks was the catalyst for the end of days. The tie in for Elidibus would be us seeing the summoning after it starts and would pull at our heart strings after we hang out with him the whole time. Great video!

[@zoetornado]

I think you got a pretty good read on the whole Lahabrea using Pandaemonium facilities as a means to revive his wife" prediction. Not only is it very gothic in a literary sense, like the visual setting has been presented so far, but also is a compelling reason for the characters in play so far to have been drawn in to this plot. One of FF's strengths in 14 especially is the way it humanizes it's villains and how from a certain point of view (usually their own) those antagonists feel as though they are doing the right thing in their own mind, which allows us to empathize with their situations and learn to look for ways conflict can be resolved without demonization of the "other". I think this shows maturity from the writers and makes for a far more compelling narrative when the actions of these characters are mostly believable if we put ourselves in their shoes. In this way, one could imagine the fervor of a "Frankenstein"-esque Lahabrea single-mindedly pursuing his own noble cause even if it tunnel-visions him to the threats caused in his search for means of eternal life/ressurection magic/hemitheosity/whatever his means of reaching this more personal goal. We'll just have to wait and find out, but this is a pretty good guess in my book.

[@danielaxc2900]

I could listen to Matt enthusiastically gush about FF all day. So wholesome.

[@chrizwood]

also Elidibus did say he saw us in Elpis before sending us there.

[@NoztrozeR]

I thought Themis being Elidibus was obvious to everyone, since the VA for Elidibus is voicing Themis in the teaser cutscene, at the end of Endwalker MSQ.

[@pozziellen]

The connection between Elidibus and Alphie was mindblowing. Now that you mention, I really want they go deep in more similarities. I love how Endwalker makes Shadowbringers even better.

[@marcvongeldern847]

I’ve been thinking something ever since this raid began… It’s nothing to do with the raid itself (By the way I love this breakdown of myths, lore, history, and parallels!) but it’s something Themis mentions a couple times in what seem like throwaway lines (though I think we should know that there are no throwaway lines at this point!) He basically tells us that “His friend” (Azem) informed us that we (The future reincarnation of the Sundered soul of Azem and current keeper of the Azem stone) would meet him in Elpis. This means past/Ancient Azem knows not only that everything gets sundered, but that the future sundered version of themself will travel back in time to that exact moment in that exact place. Azem very clearly somehow has knowledge of future events. I find this an exciting prospect!

[@Nirual86]

Speaking of which, this seems to explain why Elidibus remembered seeing us in Elpis during the MSQ.

[@FF-tp7qs]

I am pretty sure that Athena in FF14 was not the previous Lahabrea, from what I remember, the raid quest only mentioned her holding the post of head warden of Pandaemonium before Lahabrea, not that she was Lahabrea. Lahabrea already had the seat on the Convocation when he met Athena, and we already know from Venat's case that she is an aberration as very rarely do Convocation members step down from their post without "returning to the star"

[@shadowshearth6068]

One thing that I don't believe that you touched upon is Lahabrea's ties to the Void and the Void Ark from Heavensward. There are a few suggestions from the other Ascians that Lahabrea was the one who turned one of the Reflections into the Void Planet, that it was one of his "experiments", and that he can actively summon creatures from that plane of existence. That further pushes your idea of this being based on "Paradise Lost" and associated with demons and devils, considering that the major boss from that raid series is Diablos, who is attempting to revive his Queen of Hearts. Going further than that, if you have completed the Hildibrand quest lines, the last that we see of him is him getting sucked into what appears to be a Void Portal and being told that they are going to a world yet unseen, an "in-between". The interesting thing about that is that the quest is called "Don't Do the Dewprism", which is a tie back to another Square Enix game where Dewprism is a relic that can alter reality to the wielders own image. I believe as we go deeper into the raid, we will certainly be seeing many references to that, especially because as we were doing the Pandemonium quest line and they were discussing descending layers of Pandaemonium I was getting a lot of "Dante's Inferno" vibes.

[@arof7605]

The fact that we are legit tying Hildy into lore is hilarious, but you're not wrong. The void stuff has been ignored for a while, but that's been a core thread since ARR and ties directly into newly re-highlighted figures like Xande/Amon.

[@shadowshearth6068]

@@arof7605 Haha, I don't want to directly tie him into the lore, but I did want to address that the end of Hildibrand quests do usually offer hints towards the next location he'll be found. With all of the other hints that are starting to come together suggesting that we'll finally be putting the pieces together of the Void, I'm excited to see if Pandaemonium will lead us to see the creation of the Void and the location that the Ascians hid to avoid becoming sundered.

[@kyomuksn4083]

Awesome vid. P.S. This is the last place I expected a Nanoha reference XD

[@Catknight4444]

I think there's more to it than simply resurrecting Athena. What if Pandaemonium is the place the Ascian's go to upon death. A hidden 14th shard if you will. If that's the case, then maybe Lahabrea found a way to cheat his death to Thordan in Heavensward via his Phoenix research. 12000 years is plenty of time to perfect such a process. Furthermore, the Rift does not conform to the laws of normal spacetime, therefore it is entirely possible the experimental procedure was imperfect and sent him to the right place but in the wrong time. Which would fit the Mateus correlations to Satan and Lahabrea by creating a temporal ouroboros A.K.A a time loop which sets in motion the change in direction his research takes in the first place.

[@tyrokyu]

Nah, you are spot on. The day it released I went crazy looking at all Greek references on pandemonium and reached pretty much the same conclusion

[@berrys0explosion]

I wonder if the final boss will be a anima Athena. Anima has connections to Athena in ff lore, the dead mother figure as well is a reference, and it would have been interesting if Enix masked that the anima we faced in this expansion wasn’t really emperor Varis but Athena. Also it would be fitting that pandaemonium which is sort of associated with hell and the underworld where souls reside would be where we face a resurrected anima, especially with all the life and death and reanimation and resurrection themes such as phoinix and the vampire.

[@YvaiatheDemon]

Not sure if its mentioned yet but Asphodelos is not only a flower said to grow in the underworld but in certain novels and mythology its one area of the underworld - like in the Divine Comedy where hell has different parts or layers. I thought that was very interesting. Also about the white robes, maybe i didnt pay enough attention but as far as I read apart from Elidibus only retired convocation members *or* advisors wear white. Knowing that Themis said he works with an organisation that closely works with or for the convocation implies hes not (yet) elidibus, he also has a white mask instead of his red one. Ofc all we have to go by is the voice at the end of the MSQ so im pretty sure its our elidibaby but just not at that precise moment.

[@fanmadeobscurity9240]

Love all the connections you make between FF14, past FF titles, and real-world references. Thanks, Loremaster Matt!

[@kjelfalconer]

There is a small little detail that further connects Lahabrea to Pandemonium actually, specifically via ff2. In FF12, Lahabrea was the scion of light opposed to Mateus. As in, the esper named after the empreror of FF2 fame, and ruler of pandemonium. Its a small thing, but it's always cool to see the nods

[@elizabethyoung5304]

Matt, please continue with your analyses/thoughts. I want to see what your thoughts are on the next tier coming up, I haven't done any of the fights yet but hopefully I'll be able to carve out some time to do them. The stories of the 8-man raids through all of FFXIV have been really good, at least the ones I had taken the time to do. Though I haven't done any of Eden or finished the Omega raids, my favorite raid story by far is the Binding Coils, Alexander would be a close second but the story of Coil felt like a continuation of ARR's story for me. And it's kind of neat that if you've gone through the whole Coil raid series and completed all the story/raid quests, there will be different dialogue from Alisaie during MSQ, which I found really cool. The twins feel like little siblings to me and want to protect them, especially Alisaie who has no qualms about rushing head long into danger always in an attempts to prove herself. It makes her very endearing in my eyes. So, please continue with your lore deep dives. When I saw that Asphodelus would be the name of the first raid tier I immediately associated that with a "floor" of the Underworld (thanks Hades! My favorite game from last year) So, I thought that, literal translation aside, Pandaemonium was going to be a part of Hell or Hell itself or even the Underworld that we would be traveling through. I'm also looking forward to you and Mike's spoiler cast of Endwalker MSQ. There is so much to unpack there and I can't wait to hear what you have to say on it. I hope that video is in the works and coming soon. :D

[@MrMikko5000]

Pandaemonium was also in FF8 as a summon btw :P

[@andrewshandle]

The last boss of the last tier will just be Lahabrea wondering aloud why Emet-Selch is so popular and why even Elidibus has people defending his actions, but yet nobody ever defends him. Then he takes his ball and goes home.

[@kamishawe1890]

not sure abut the Azem, elidibus, Themis connection... one of the thing's Elidibuis distictly says to us (our character) was that he'd never met "us - our soul", and while his memory was scrabbled eggs towards the end, the ancients never forget a soul that they've seen before. He even said that we must have been a persona before his time, which would seem strange since he's so connected to the same era of people that our soul resonates with.

[@redmist2195]

Do the FFXIV (Square Enix) actually employ an expert on ancient Greek mythology ? I think now that you made this video there will be definitely be someone in the future who studied this making multiple hour long breakdown of all the links and themes. I love this.

[@kuniohung8914]

Hippocampus....oh so that's why I'm forgetting all the mechanics in the savage fight

[@wakandaforever5328]

Great job! I look forward to treks into the New World and references to other ancient cultures other than the Greek mythos.

[@Panos_1821]

I get what u mean. Being a Greek myself and playing endwalker... I am having a blast!! And I hope to see in future expansions other ancient cultures. Personally I'd love something with Egypt or persia connected.

[@Ashley-gu4tb]

Another thing to tie into the snake references- Elidibus' constellation is Ophiuchus, which is the snake bearer, or a man holding a snake. This coupled with the fact that he has the unusual ability to 'control' Pandaemonium, sharing a name with the goddess of divine order, and Zodiark's purpose to restore order to the star makes me think that we'll see why he was ultimately chosen to become the primal's heart. Also, that we're going to see the heart of Sabik come up at some point. Sabik is a star on the serpent part of Ophiuchus. There are other games where Zodiark itself was a snake with wings. Also! I love, love these theories so much! The only thing I wanted to point out is that Athena did not hold the seat of Lahabrea on the convocation-she was just the overseer of the facility of Pandaemonium. Lahabrea was somewhat like the CEO of Panda until Athena died, and he took over the role of a supervisor there.

[@WalterWhite-jz7ct]

The Hades Theme just Nails the point home nice attention to detail ^^. A Nanoha mention in 2022...WOW im impressed (tho it fits quite well with how deluded Precia Testarossa was at the end)

[@BroadwayRonMexico]

My theory is Themis/Elidibus is Venat's son. The two look remarkably similar as both Ancients (being some of the only Ancients with Viera facial features) and primals (the Warrior of Light looks almost like a male Hydaelyn and they both use versions of YOUR abilities), and it'd further the Hydaelyn/Zodiark and Cosmos/Chaos similarities. Also, there's some irony to the guy named "Themis" (as you said, the goddess whose domain included ordered families) having his mother become his main adversary

[@theneonfoxgaming]

one thing I haven't seen anyone talk about yet: if you take into account his eye color, Themis, and Elidibus as WoL in Seat of Sacrifice have basically identical eye colors. For me personally there was never any question whether Themis was Elidibus but, having done SoS since doing the raids I thought it was an interesting touch.

[@Cellix312]

I had a bit of a breakthrough when doing Prae. Lahabrea sets up a lot of the lore we know today. One thing struck me. He talks about the Heart of Sabik. He says that it was something not even the Allags could understand. Sounds to me like it’s something made by Lahabrea or Elidibus. Probably the latter. So I wonder if it’s going to come up in the raid. He even talks about the deepest hells and the pinnacle of the heavens. Very similar subject matter!!

[@gunbiz]

Always nice to see our boy matt get a vid

[@MugiwarasNakama]

You know what. Now that i think about it. Lahabrea idiocy in Arr/hw (going off on his own and undermining Emets plans while trying to execute the rejoining himself) makes perfect sense if his intentions were to betray the other Ascians. It could be that the thirteenth falling to darkness could have been intentionally orchestrated by Lahabrea as well. And it would also go a ways to explain why Lahabrea is also unsundered

[@Vashy434]

My guess for the final raid tied name is Tartaros. Because Asphodelos is in reference to the fields of Asphodel which is purgatory. Abyssos is the abyss, and at the bottom of the abyss is Tartarus. We are going deeper and deeper idk why we would randomly go upward from there.

[@852primus]

Elidibus was the one who confirmed we went to the past yet we never saw him in Elpis. Maybe this journey through pandemonium is how he remembers us yet not?

[@zekieff]

Great video, can't wait till we get to see what all happens, shake out if you know what I mean. Gave me a lot to think about while waiting!

[@ehko9989]

I would really recommend you to either do the savage version of Hesperos or dig a bit into it. Last bosses always had new forms on savage difficulty that deepens their lore one way or another as you know and covering Hesperos without talking about his savage version is in my opinion the wrong approach. Having said that, I now understand better why his savage new form looks the way it does thanks to your hard work on the Pandaemonium lore.

[@Salt_Mage]

Do remember that Savage versions are not the canon fight. They are exaggerated retellings.

[@morteaux3662]

and what's the story/meaning difference between normal and savage raid of Hesperos, except mechanics, evolved look and visual stuff?

[@a_tired_dad]

A fantastic, mythologically sound and scholarly analysis! *Academic civil applause*

[@yowaikemen]

Nothing about Hesperos indicated a 'life of sacrilege' considering he was described as a kind person and the shining star of Pandaemonium. So the only 'sin' left is his infatuation with Lahabrea. Very progressive, not at all a homophobic message to the masses.

[@onetrickponysona2613]

thats........ projection

[@yowaikemen]

@@onetrickponysona2613 It's an observative extrapolation - and it follows the archetypal trend of queer coded villains SquareEnix defaults to writing. The expositional text and dialogue in the game (JP) refers to Hesperos as someone who was kind to both the people working at the site and the creations captive, a role model to follow, therefore, his past isn't sacrilegious. We aren't given any other exposition besides that, and the only explicit motive for his villainy is "I'm infatuated with Lahabrea; I will live forever for Lahabrea; He only needs me". Literally his last few sentences were talking about his infatuation with Lahabrea before the committing unalive scene. It's pretty on the nose... and it's not new. The English localization is different.

[@yowaikemen]

Oh, yeah, and the detail at the end of the tier where Themis alludes to Hesperos not even being an agent to his own motives. *shrugs*

[@aPopcap]

Another thing to Elidibus, is that with his real name Themis, it shows that he will rejoin the Convocation, but also gives the true purpose of Zodiark bringing new laws of nature to Eitherys and attempting to bring order to a world on the brink of chaos and despair of that time, just like the name implies order and law

[@Hinalover]

Also, with Elidibus...RIGHT BEFORE Elidibus sends us to Elpis, he said "You were there"

[@emriscoscept7008]

Since 5.3 I've been saying Elidibus and Emet-Selch are pretty synonymous to Alphinaud and G'raha Tia. I feel very vindicated to know I'm at least partially not alone. xD

[@floranteantonioalfonso946]

it's interesting to see matt's take.. since when i enter the Raid, first thing comes to mind is the the Divine comedy, Dante's inferno.. since they also call it first to fourth circle the same as the 9 circle of hell in the literature..

[@cosmosofinfinity]

Hopefully that means 9 Hell themed circles and raid 10, 11, and 12 will be something entirely different and mark the other shoe dropping

[@floranteantonioalfonso946]

@@cosmosofinfinity there might be a limbo and paradise at the end of it,.

[@highbrowstonebender7063]

My question is: is the Lahabrea we defeat in Praetorium the same Lahabrea we are due to encounter in Elpis? Lahabrea is a title on the convocation, so the one we come across may not know who or what we are because his predecessor was defeated or replaced after the big mind wipe. This entire substory may not have anything to do with the other Ascians we encounter in the present based off of how it resolves aside from "oh by the way, you can call me Elidibus"

[@misslethal2355]

contemplating this as Radz-at-Han drops that BEAT

[@Silvershadowfire]

Wonderful analysis. I think you're definitely on to something there. I do have to wonder, though... Is this going to be the same Lahabrea that we fought? Lahabrea is a title, not a given name. Is it possible that this Lahabrea will die or give up his seat before the Sundering, and the one that we fought, the one that was unsundered, is his heir? We know from the short stories that Lahabrea is the Speaker of the Convocation. That seems to me to be a position that is antithetical with spending all his time in Pandemonium. It could be that he takes a more active role after the events of the raid series, or it could be that a new Lahabrea with different interests takes over the seat.

[@mofantasy9536]

awsome speculations. i think ur on to something dude. especially with Elidibus

[@docdoom1987]

A lot of people seem to think Erichthonius is Lahabrea, and it could be... but I feel that's too obvious, also repeating the same method in which we came to learn more of Emet and now Elidibus as well, but there's also the fact Erichthonius says he is unable to use magic properly and the Lahabrea we fought was a powerful sorcerer. Often I hear people comment on him being weak, but that was due to swapping bodies regularly and not his lack of magical prowess; Hephaestus was known to be crippled. So my personal theory which is Lahabrea's soul has found a way to send us back to deal with this conundrum and help him change events or try to save the relationship with his son or even his life. Lahabrea's regret of mistreating his family could also explain why he seemed so hasty and reckless with the Ascian plans. The other thing to consider is Erichthonius' having the red mask; which is the mask for the member holding the seat. If Erichthonius is not Lahabrea, why does he have the mask of the seat holder? My other theory is Erich IS Lahabrea and has messed his memory up and believes he's his own son... Which would be insane lol. Anyway, that's something I think about with this storyline because I feel like meeting prepubescent Lahabrea and helping with his daddy issues is a little too obvious and retreading similar plot development, and that's boring imo!

[@KeiEnd]

And Elidibus is considered a young brother to the convocation because he is younger than the rest. Kinda fit in with Themis age & looks

[@RealRaslu]

"A little bit of his dynamis" lmao. Very nice video.

[@densha63]

Love the background and lore here Matt! Great job :D

[@snarkvictory4425]

Has anyone touched the fact that Athena is very likely Igyoeorem due to the fact that Erich's whole mechanic is fire and ice and Lahabrea and Igyoeorem in Hades EX as well as Ascian Prime are also Fire and Ice?

[@coltiskool]

Matt please keep doing these deep dives into lore, I love the structured order and your style.

[@Dor1770]

The thematic connections between stuff in Final Fantasy stories is often as interesting or more so than the story at face value. So I think this is an awesome way to think about the story. Thanks for sharing.

[@miqotesoulia8620]

so well constructed, I put together a few pieces myself but this goes all the way. Dead giveaway the elidibus bit just from doing the MSQ.

[@corporal108]

awesome video! do you guys happen to be rendering your videos with a new beefy GPU? I've noticed a lot of visual artifacting in your latest videos that look the same as another youtuber who was having problems with his video card doing the same thing to his videos. It's really noticeable particularly when there's just text up on screen like at 0:36 or at 3:41 - all those white dots popping on screen. hopefully its not anything bad, but might be something worth keeping an eye on.

[@ExileOfBrokenSky]

I love rabbit holes, and I'm not just talking about Viera.

[@MrMelindru]

That is a very interesting topic, and I kind of agree with everything you have said. I do believe this is how the story is going to unravel. Now, there's only one thing which I think will be a bit different. While I do agree this is Edilibus, I don't think this is the Edilibus we all know from the game, the unsundered one that we end up killing or fusing with the tower, however you want to see that. I think this Edilibus is the one that came before the one we know. I do believe, that whatever is going to happen down there, Themis is going to die, which will prompt a new "Elidibus" seat to occupy his place, which is going to be the kid we, later on, see after we fusion him with the tower. Also, there's another point, Themis is wearing a white dress, like Venat. This could also mean, he is an EX convocation member, which would relate to the Elidibus seat. In this case, the real Elidibus is already part of the convocation, even if he is still a kid. Those are my thoughts on this specific topic.

[@Ketsuekisan]

Every Elidibus wears a white robe, even while on the Convocation. I think Themis is Elidibus, but is "hiding"/choosing not to mention it. The Japanese version uses words to refer to Elidibus that imply he's not a "child," but more like a "young adult." Think the equivalent of 18-20, which I'd say is roughly how old Themis looks.

[@aechean]

Great delivery, research, discussion points...this is the best kind of lunch break content.

[@ImaLiveQ]

What an amazing video to listen and watch to. I love FFXIV, but I would never go this deep with the story and I'm glad I have these videos to consume this type of content. Great work, Matt.

[@khinzaw77]

I don't think the white robe thing necessarily means "retired convocation member or Elidibus." I believe what Hythlodaeus says is that the robes indicate "a voice of reason and impartial mediator," and that as a former convocation member Venat is qualified as that. This may be pre-Convocation Elidibus who has earned the white robe and it may be that his talents and ability to be the voice of reason are what got him the spot on the convocation.

[@HealingBlight]

It has been said that Elidibus and Lahabrea were close friends, even brotherly. If this is also the story about how Erichtonius and Themis first met, how Themis empowers a weak Erichtonius to reveal his true potential, and with a need to replace the seat of Lahabrea (should the current one be removed), you can see how both these two would have developed such a relationship and how Erichtonius found his way onto the 14. A bit of a bigger stretch, I also think it possible the moment Elidibus remembers the WoL visiting Elpis, he says "it fills his heart", he became re-aware of the truth of things, that his mind went from a state of failure to success. He may have been part of the Hydalin faction, or aware of it's goals. But in offering himself up to Zodiark, became tempered and his recollection clouded, perhaps willingly so. It could be that this young man in his role as emissary bore the burden of both sides, my heart breaks more at his final words in 5.3.

[@watchm4ker]

Elidibus/"Themis" isn't Alphinaud. He's *G'raha Tia.* He is what Raha could have become as the Crystal Exarch, had he not had the strength of will to last the century or more needed to call the WoL to him.