Filled With Swarm Cells - Italian Hive Needs a Queen

[@vinofarm]

Those are "swarm cells", but they won't swarm without a queen... right? Are those cells basically emergency queens?

[@akajolly8616]

Vino Farm if you are 100% sure no queen is in that hive they are emergency cells and that hive will not swarm

[@MultiJelle1]

yes de bees wil swarm ,, 2 months ago it happend to mee my friend,,so keap a eye on it,what you can do is ,,take all the cell,s out till you have 2 cells in your hive high up on the frames,, otherwise you loses half of your hive

[@TheAdamantVeil]

one of those queen cells might have been deconstructed after she hatched but she was defective so they killed her and now there doing emergency queen cells

[@sabito1211]

or they swarmed already

[@lomahfarm2944]

Vino Farm I would not want to bee in your boots right now. They shouldn't sworm because they don't have a queen. But I am wondering if you still have drones, because if you don't have drones than the queen cells would not get matted, and your hive will slowly die. If your hives have no drones than I would try to find a new queen ASAP. If you want to it would check out my channel in 1week, because I will have honey harvisting videos. Thank you for all your videos!!!!!!!!!! And I wish you the best of luck. ☺☺

[@christopherpuetz7570]

I'm late to the party here but I have the exact same problem and just requeened last week. Praying for the best!! Thanks for the lessons!!

[@bwakel310]

Btw, nice to see some flowers blooming.

[@smokeydabeecharlescoleman8365]

I suggest you place a box under the top box. That will give them a place to draw wax. Without wax stores they will not swarm. With goldenrod in, they will just draw the box out. BTW, those other boxes can get honey bound fast. If you have extra wax, now would be a great time to add them. Honey bound can be nectar bound. If there is no place to lay, you will see those boxes swarm too.Consider making some splits, and overwintering a few nuces

[@OkieRob]

normally the hive swarms when the queen cell is capped. if the first queen that hatches doesn't kill the other cells, you get after swarms. the hive can do this till it swarms to death. That is why people say to destroy all but 2 queen cells. but that usually only happens if the brood nest is back filled or just a lot of swarm cells. In my opinion the only way to save the hive is purchase a queen and put her in a press in cage so she can lay some eggs in some empty comb. Build one out of some #8 hardware cloth that covers at least half the frame . Make sure the bees cannot chew underneath the cage. You will have to tear out every queen cell and not miss any for them to accept a introduced queen.

[@PaulOtis]

I myself would do a newspaper combine with the Russian Hive Right. Split the stores between the 2 russian hives. I think it is just a bit too late in the season for a new queen. Good luck in what ever direction you go!

[@lwil2808]

Paul Otis good idea

[@syounkin3270]

I really enjoy your videos. I don’t raise bees myself but it intrigues me.

[@vinofarm]

MissSwan35 Thanks for watching!

[@janetkouma1]

In Nebraska, my bees built lots of swarm cells. It's really frustrating to a newbie like myself to go through this in the first 6 months. I wish you had more time. If I have to, I will combine hives, good luck!

[@Stikker021]

Sad, she was a VERY good queen. The following I think you are aware of, but I am going to put it here just in case. There are three types of queen cells, namely swarm, supersedure and emergency. Swarm cells are generally found on the bottom of a frame (where yours seem to be) and are the hives natural way of dividing and propagating. Supersedure cells happen when you HAVE A QUEEN but the hive decides she is not up to scratch and decides to replace her, and emergency cells happen when QUEEN DIES and the hive has to create a new queen by quickly converting an existing cell with egg/embryo of correct age into a larger queen cell. Supersedure and emergency cells tend to be somewhere in the middle of the frame. What is rather odd to me is you have no queen, yet the queen cells are on the bottom of the frame, capped, as if the queen recently laid eggs in prepared cells. I would give it a week or two and check if some of the queen cells hatched, if not I would combine the Italian hive with Hive Russian Right (slowly using the sheet of newspaper separator method). If no queen hatches from the Italian bees you are unfortunately going to lose her genes and that would just suck. I think you could harvest a couple of frames from hive Russian Left this year. If you do, make sure it is one of the newest ones, the others probably still have sugar syrup in them. I wish you luck on the Italian queen hatching. Thanks for the video.

[@NikiCanotas]

When she emerges, she takes out the other queens when they 'chirp' order a queen. Add the queen and they will sort it out. Laying will start way sooner, who knows, maybe they would run with 2 queens..... (not common) Start making fondant for winter, as they will be light workers, either way.

[@johntroy3910]

It look's like your Italian hive is going to swarm with the amount of cells that are there if that happened it will weaken what's left going into the winter i take out most of the queen cells i also have apidea hives from my hives in garden i take out queen cells and transfer that i took early on now i got mated queens as a back up that helps if things dont work if a queen gets lost for any reason. you should have maybe 5 or 6 apidea hives next year it does help with replacing queens unless your looking for a special queen at some point keep up the good work :-)

[@konzetsu6068]

I am by no means an beekeeper, but seeing as you have a well populated hive (due to have an generation falloff, mind) and you got queencells on multiple frames I'd probably do a split to increase my chances of getting a new queen. you can always snag some brood from the russians to fill the hives out, and you'd probably have to feed them both protein and sugar. You will have a longer drop in productivity than when you buy a new queen but you have a chance of saving the genetics of balboa. One thing I'd even consider is a three-way 50-25-25 split, getting two small nucs with the queencells and buying a new queen for the actual hive. You might have to end up merging them again but you have a shot at getting two new queens whilst still keeping production going. This will however force you to reinforce the hive a few times with brood from the russians, reducing their population a bit. And regarding the plastic frames. Maybe wax them in the future as it seems bees take to them faster that way than when they're clean. Also, have you considered just dropping a queen excluder under the top box of russian hive left? you might get a small harvest, or at least enough to spread around the hives for the winter.

[@vinofarm]

Great suggestions. Someone else also suggested splitting before the queens emerge and I like that concept. The foundation I used this season is plastic based, but it is heavily coated with wax. It is not bare plastic. I thought of trying to get a small harvest from the strong Russian hive, but they have been slow to draw out the frames they already have. A small super added to the top at this point will probably just sit there and not get drawn out. I do appreciate your ideas! Thanks.

[@rumncoke04821]

One thing I have seen on the 628dirtrooster he showed a video where they cut the cells out and put cages on them to capture the new queens. Now my memory is fuzzy but I think they said caged queens won't allow a swarm to happen. But emergency queens from what I see happens is first out that is viable will kill the others then she will mate and return. I would hold off regardless of status once things wind down and you are short a queen split hives and plan for next year replace maybe try and watch for a spring swarm to catch to move into in a open hive. Then take the pre split back and make the hive again. If you do that you may have a higher chance of survival and might avoid a new queen cost if you catch one next year. Panic later plan for winter splitting a hive to survive a winter will benefit the others with more stores

[@corkkeysbees4627]

Hi there what need to happen is you need to remove all cells but two so you have one queen that will mate with drones and see how she going in three weeks if she out and about as well laying eggs in time the queen can lay early as I had re-queened by bee middle of winter never new until spring so they just might need help thought winter with food supplies

[@weatherlyfarms8326]

What to do with the Italians? tough call. do you still have drones? if you have drones, then there is a chance that the newly emerged queen can get mated. but do you want to take that chance? Buying a queen could save you time & help get the colony ready for winter. (is it already too late? should combine the hives?) But you are in MA & I'm in eastern NC, so we are dealing with different climates. good luck

[@halfblindalchemist]

You’re in a tough spot. As you noted, not a lot of time left in the season. If a virgin hatches and mates successfully, I don’t think they will have enough time to get the necessary brood cycles in. Keep in mind that, without fresh brood hatching, the colony strength is going to keep diminishing, until the new brood hatches in three or four weeks. That means fewer bees to cover the brood during the cold nights, so the queen will not be able to lay at full potential, making the problem worse. Combining is probably your best option, although I don’t know how well that will go combining those Italians with one of the Russian hives (have never tried it). If you want to try to keep that hive going, you could get a mated queen AND add a couple of frames of brood, maybe one a week, until her brood starts hatching. That will help keep the population up. But, it will also drain your strong hives. You could also do the same but reduce them down to a nuc, or even a single box. You can succesfully overwinter nucs (I have on occasion, and Mike Palmer does it all the time), but you have to feed them all winter. If, by chance you do get a virgin to successfully mate, you could also try the nuc route. You just need to really keep an eye on colony strength and level of stores. Heading into mid-Sept around here is a hard time to try to keep a small colony going. I’m speaking from experience. Last year, I had a colony go queenless in early Sept. No brood, no queen cells. I bought a mated queen through the mail (Zia Queenbees, New Mexico) and added her on 15 Sept., along with a couple of frames of brood. Tried keeping them in a single deep and fed heavily, but they didn’t make it. Like I said, it’s a hard time to keep a small colony going. In hindsight I should probably have tried the nuc method (I have polystyrene nucs, which are fantastic insulators). I was advised by others that it wouldn't work, but I wanted to give it a shot as an experiment. Beeks can be bullheaded. Good luck.

[@vinofarm]

Thanks for the advice! I just decided to re-queen. Got a queen in yesterday. She is supposed to be a mated, laying queen, so I'll know in a few days. The hive is strong. If this queen is a layer, we should be able to get two brood cycles in before winter. New video should be up in a few days.

[@halfblindalchemist]

Great. Best of luck with her. Once the flow dies down, feed, feed feed. including pollen or pollen sub, if you have it, to keep her laying as long as possible. Let's hope for a long, warm fall (Thank you, global climate change).

[@cluelessbeekeeping1322]

What if you stuck a couple of those capped cells into a nuc with a couple frames of brood? Make a split? If they build up numbers in time for winter, then keep that hive + queen, if they don't build up enough, then make dual queen nuc box (ya, make 2 splits!)

[@rdg6552]

Nice addition using the drone footage!

[@jamiebennett7663]

Dont buy a queen to late in the season running a chance even if she is matted. Let the hive run its course. This point it is what it is. If you get cells from your Russians those are the bees uou will want to keep in that area. They do so much better- honey, bee population, sustainable. Personally my favorite to keep( most resilient)

[@donalddorffner5105]

I am having the exact same issue with my Italian hive!

[@dracarys6775]

If you are 100% sure that the hive is queen less they are emergency cells cause it makes 0 sense to swarm without the queen which will lead to death of the whole colony which has swarmed..and the queen cells are capped so you can expect eggs in 20 days which will take you to end of September but if you "can" requeen you have 20 days for the hive to develop so the choice is yours to make..

[@bdanza]

The only thing I would really be worried about is whether or not she actually gets mated, are there drones in the russian hives? the bee numbers in the hive look good if the new queen comes soon. I would be worried about requeening if the hive was way weaker.

[@Digger927]

Hmm, problems problems. With that many queen cells and not knowing for sure what's going on...I think what I would do is buy a new queen, split that hive into two 4 frame nucs splitting the queen cells between them. Then, add the new mated queen to the original hive. See what the splits do as far as hatching queens and then decide what to do from there. That way, the original hive will have a good laying queen, your queen cells will not go to waste yet you don't have to rely on them being successful either. David at Barnyard Bees (KZbin channel) has queens on hand in GA and ships them all over. I've never bought any from him but he seems like a straight up great guy. Queen cells have time but it's damn short. Pure judgement call any way you look at it. I think what I laid out there has the highest chance for a win win scenario.

[@vinofarm]

Thanks, man! This is definitely the prevailing suggestion. I like it. I just need to execute the plan and locate a mated queen.

[@jo-han]

One other options I haven't read yet is: call your mentor / guy you buy queens from. Ask him how he breeds queens. How does he or other bee keepers make mated queens with known genetics? Eg how do they make sure that the queen they select, mates with a drone they select? Do they just breed queens to have reserve queens for the rest of the year in case a hive goes queenless like now (or even later in the year, or in spring? And how do they let reserve queens overwinter? in small nuc? Inside a house / shed? Can you lock them in and feed them? And can they make better swarm lures with queens then with lemongrass oil? and how do they catch queens safely? Box of the unhatched queen cell in one of those small queen cages and wait until it hatches? Then you've suddenly got a wide range of options to try out with all of the queen cells. Maybe to much work, or to much for your current experience level but hey everything is an experiment anyway.

[@vinofarm]

Mentor is out of town for the week! I'm seeking immediate advice and will check with him next week if I have not made a decision by then. Good questions!

[@jo-han]

ah yes understandable.

[@SARubel-zu8bc]

How can i know the Italian or Russian queen?

[@tiarnnabone6543]

We are super curious about that nuc box in your bee yard behind the Italians. And your swarm trap! Anything?

[@vinofarm]

Nuc box is empty. I brought it up to the bee yard a while ago, didn't use it and never brought it back down to the barn. Maybe I'll use it someday. It's got a couple frames in it. Someone once told me to keep an empty hive in your bee yard for potential swarms! Nothing in the tree swarm trap yet. It's still baited, so if my Italians swarm, maybe they'll head there!

[@penelopeconklin8155]

I was told to wait and see if a Queen returns in a couple weeks then replace Her if not, I have also introduced a frame of Eggs and brood so The. Bees can start a Queen.

[@hightde13]

My purely sentimental though would be to let them keep trying to get a new queen going on their own to keep the 'line' of the original queen. I don't have any practical hands on reason for that though, full disclosure.

[@DragoonEnder]

If it was me, I'd let the Italians just do their thing. You have enough bees to take care of :) my lady wants a Flow Hive so I sent her to your channel..... now she can see the craziness that goes on! What ever happened to that box you stuck on the dead tree in the woods????

[@vinofarm]

Chris Newland Nothing in the swarm trap yet... but if this hive swarms maybe they'll go there.

[@jo-han]

in that case you could pinch one of the queen cells to make a better swarm lure....

[@scottrobbins9320]

Strange. It's the time of year you get second swarms, but I thought the queen determines if there is a swarm... I mean, they are dead otherwise if they swarm... right? Is the hive honey bound maybe?

[@krispapas9834]

I'm not convinced they are queen less

[@bbping94]

I know this is an older video, but I just went through this and still kinda dealing with it. I can totally relate to this. I'm a 1st year BeeK and wow, the bees are teaching me some things right now. lol

[@vinofarm]

Yes, they can get pretty magical with their behavior. Also frustrating. I've come to the conclusion that if I see queen cells forming up in the middle of the frame to let them handle it. Leave them alone. They want to make a new queen because they know what they're doing. If you see swarm cells, you need to act. Swarming is good if you catch it and split them into multiple boxes. If you miss it, you lose half your bees, but the hive should recover.

[@patrickprescott5166]

I had to requeen about 3-4 weeks ago in MA. Ended up finding a shop in Lincoln, RI with queens in stock.

[@sandrocamargo698]

Patrick, how can I contact this shop in RI?? Thanks

[@patrickprescott5166]

www.woodsbees.com/

[@sandrocamargo698]

Thank you Patrick!!

[@akajolly8616]

Vino, This is deja vu for me... my hive just did this same thing I found a capped queen cell one week and next week it was gone and found 6 more capped queens... and not one took... I waited 3weeks and saw a massive increase of drones but no capped brood so I went out and got a mated queen and boom...back in business fyi let's say you opened that hive the day those queens were capped that means in about 8 day from that day she will come out.. Then add another 5-8 days to mature and be able to fly and mate Then another day of mating (they won't fly to mate on rain days) Then 2 days to transfer sperm and wala a laying queen... Now ask yourself ^^do I have time for all that^^ or should I just buy a $30 mated queen and be done? Oh and 14-21 days is a more realistic timetable after a new queen hatches...to be laying

[@vinofarm]

Aka Jolly Excellent point.

[@encountar]

I agree with Aka Jolly, get the hive as strong as it can be heading into the winter.

[@FloryJohann]

''' but they won't swarm without a queen... right? '' Bees will swarm with or without a queen if they see that they need to. I had a split that took off without a queen and the bees left the brood behind. Robber bees in this case caused the split to take off, after they failed 2 times to make a queen.

[@navicheetos]

I would say requeen. Safest bet just because of your nights being a tad cold.

[@jeffreys9667]

Yes, they can and will swarm with your virgin queens. Happened to me last year they swarmed 4 times in one week. Devastated the hive. Had to combine what was left with another hive to save what bees I had left. Get a new queen mated queen, destroy the cells and introduce her slowly. That's what I would do this time of year to save the hive. Good luck.

[@vinofarm]

This seems to be the leading suggestion. Now I just need to locate a mated queen. Not easy this time of year.

[@jeffreys9667]

Here is a link for a queens, all my normal suppliers are sold out for 2017. They look like they have queens available for Sept, 12th shipping. Hope this helps. Best of luck. wildflowermeadows.com

[@silverrealm]

Is it too late in the season to stick the swarm cells in Nucs and get some more colonies up?

[@vinofarm]

I think it is too late to make nucs. If this was June, I'd totally play with this idea, but we have MAYBE 6 weeks until the real cold starts to hit and that's not enough time to get a nuc strong enough for a 6 month winter, especially if I have to first wait 4 weeks for new brood from a newly hatched queen.

[@lwil2808]

Looks like she swarmed. I would call the place that you got this years Nucs from and get their advice on a new queen. I would be feeding to help them quickly build out since i is so late in the season.

[@julieenslow5915]

Hindsight is so clear! It seems that your Balboa line must have included half Russian blood for the F1 and F2 generations. However the queens are all such Italian queens - so I guess that is dominant. Or a few Italian drones might have survived the last inspection. Or both. OK so still not that clear, lol! Note: 5:23 Russian Hive Right queen looks more Italian than Balboa did, so I am wondering if the Balboa daughters look so Italian because of her, her drones, or the "Russian" drones of the queen that looks Italian.

[@danameable]

At this time of the year if you do find a queen. Its probably a queen not wanted so no point of buying it . I would let it go its course. By the way you surprised me with your first inspection, Glad to hear you understood the principal behind the method.

[@vinofarm]

I do listen to my commenters!

[@PaulPetrea]

New viewer here. Let the bees sort it, man. They know, better than we do, what to do.

[@walkerlone]

Surely it doesn't have to be one thing or another. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive options. How about this for a cunning and sneaky plan: there will still be plenty of drones around. So, do a walk away split, to double your chance of a queen (by now you'll have to use a frame of brood from a Russian hive for the inevitable queen cells), with the insurance of recombining the split hives later once you have your queen from one or the other. It has the benefit of getting local genetics from having your new queen locally mated. You don't care about honey. And you get to avoid a repeat of last winter's Italian hive death because you will recombine the hive before the winter. But from a split you get to double your chance of having a locally mated queen, plus because the hive is ultimately recombined you won't be worrying about two small weak nuc hives over winter. And you get to still experiment. You get to see whether the supersedure cells will work to re-queen your hive, whilst simultaneously preventing the chance of swarming. I would find that plan irresistible. Its a win for you at every level. You might even get two queens, one from each split, and thereby have a spare queen to pinch and put into your bottle of alcohol for baiting that lonely swarm trap with. If you are prepared to simply cage the queen cells you might not even have to split the hive at all, and you can let all the queens emerge and have them all. Or you can do a split and still cage those supersedure cells. I'm a goddam genius. You're welcome.

[@vinofarm]

Have you been reading the comments??? Ha ha. This is definitely the common suggestion and it is something I had not thought of. So thanks! It's all making sense to me now.

[@gregwaskom3700]

Neill McCarthy not really. without drones those queen cells are worthless

[@walkerlone]

Greg Waskom. Not if they are going to be pinched/frozen and added to the alcohol bottle for baiting swarm boxes.

[@gregwaskom3700]

Neill McCarthy i was replying on saving the hive not making queen lure

[@jayboy0681]

Thanks for the update mate, totally your call but if was mine I'm aboriginal so I'd let nature do its thing as it has done since the beginning but like I said only my opinion and I've never owned bees before. I wish you good luck with your decision and I hope you and your family have a wonderful week.

[@vinofarm]

Thanks for the kind words. I hear you. I just don't like watching hives die IF I know there was something I could have done. I keep the hive, it's my responsibility to do what I can to help them.

[@jayboy0681]

Totally understand mate, either way your doing a bloody top job for even giving it a go. You are truly inspiring for a lot of us on here. Thanks

[@romarwright3341]

I would suggest that on frame with the four swarm cells, you could remove that frame with about 2 other frames in the hive with brood and add 2 more frames, make a five frame nuke with the swarm cells. Now for the italian hive itself you could uncap all swarm cells with your hive tool, buy a queen and requeen. So basically you would have a queen in the Italian hive to sustain it and also a nuke with the swarm cells to see which queen will emerge and you will have two Italian hives. But don't merge the Italians with the Russians.

[@timmo7913]

Dig your vids. We started hives at the same time and I've been watching your progress from Post Falls, Idaho. Yes, the West is on fire, AQI (Air Quality Index) was close to 400 a couple days ago (500 is the highest), but the bees are flying. Hundreds of acres of alfalfa are on the third bloom and my big hive gave me 2 gallons of beautiful alfalfa honey this year. All's well, at least here in the West, dispite the partial dearth. I started feeding a week ago. Hives are strong. We get the same crazy winters you do. Vivaldi boards are key to successful northern bees. Cheers my fellow apiast. I will keep watching your success. KZbin- Neens bees.

[@budlefebvre8811]

I'd split them into two hives and see what they do. You could put them into two oe three nucs for the winter too.

[@apismellifera2629]

Hope all is well... where is the new vid :) Thanks to a family member and a large influence of your vid's I'm also in the early stages of planning and plan to "bee" embarking on a crazy beekeeping ride...let's keep our fingers crossed. Now to the question; my property is 4.5 acres and want to turn approximately 3 acres into a forage wild-flower field, do you mind sharing with me the location where you purchased your seeds in bulk I'm sure!? Thank you VinoFarm.

[@vinofarm]

I ordered my wildflower seeds in bulk from Eden Brothers and American Meadows. We plowed and rototilled about 1 acre. Let it sit over winter to kill the grass and then spread seeds in the spring. The first year was a gorgeous wildflower field. We were expecting continuous wildflowers after that, but this year almost nothing came back but grass and native goldenrod. It was a let down (and that seed was expensive.) This year, we turned another acre in a different location with hopes of planting clover, alfalfa and buckwheat. The buckwheat grew incredibly well, but I didn't see a ton of bees on it. The alfalfa and 1/2 the clover we bought immediately got taken over by grass. We are going to till again before winter and try to kill the grass and do buckwheat and clover again with better timing. We got buckwheat and clover from Johnny's Seeds in Maine. It was a lot cheaper than the wildflower mixes. The key is to adequately prepare your soil and time the planting so it doesn't get taken over by grass.

[@apismellifera2629]

Thank you for the info... much appreciated; sounds like it's not full proof with the wildflowers I will try a smaller area to test it out and then I will plan from there. Thanks again

[@thedutchhomesteader3775]

Let the hive fly into a healthy hive :)

[@hazelhazelton1346]

The faster you can get your bees queenright, the better. If you can buy and introduce a mated queen within a week, do it. Pinch those queen cells, it's extremely unlikely that they will get mated this late in the season, but they will try to kill any other queen you introduce.

[@vinofarm]

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm looking into availability now...

[@wadebarnes6720]

This is the old video and I seen your question so you know they will swarm to they can't swarm no more

[@deboracroft1292]

I think I would combine the hive that doesn't have a queen with your Russians I had to do that with one of my hives I had a queen and I don't know what happened to her. How I combine the hives - The one without the queen I put on top of the stronger hive that had a queen. You need to take a couple sheets of newspaper and lay down on the top of the stronger hive and put some slits in it with a knife and then put the hive box on top of the stronger hive. That seem to work for me. I hope that helps but I guess you need to use your own judgment.

[@blackoak4978]

Debora Croft don't forget a queen excluder. U don't want the queen from below moving up

[@granttabor1338]

Due to time of year and time frame I would re queen. You have no idea what is in those cells with no other eggs or lava anyplace probably drone. Time wise from finding that queen cell she didn't have time to hatch, get strong, go out and mate then come back and lay a few eggs then swarm. Want to save then re queen.

[@quentinwalker20]

Long time viewer l(ove your work) first time commenting. This might be a silly idea. What about putting one of the brood frames from one of the Russian hives in with the Italians. so that they have female larvae to turn into Queens. Obviously then they're more likely to be Russian bees but if they mate with the Italian drones then you'll get a 50/50.

[@BrandonsBees]

Those darn Italians are so perplexing! I would leave them alone and see what happens but what do I know? I would treat it as an experiment and see how the bees handle themselves.

[@N2MEDS]

If you are looking for a Queen to buy I do know that Barnyard Bee's are still selling them, they are in North Georgia, you might look them up if that's what you are needing.

[@vinofarm]

Thanks for the tip!

[@Jay-jp2iv]

If no queen appears combine the hives with the Russians and split next year. You really need two of the same hives to help supporting each other easier, like your two Russian hives, same bees same frames etc. I've learned that the hard way also.

[@vinofarm]

Yes, the Italians are on mediums and the Russians are on deeps. A bit of a mismatch.

[@markjones5061]

Make new Queen's from the queen cells and reduce brood box down a single box to over winter the so they won't have as much room to heat up .and in fall feed 4 gallons of 2to 1 and they should have a better chance of surviving at least try it on one hive I got that way from a guy in Canada so it should work there

[@crazybirdybird4312]

I really want a bee keeper game

[@smokeydops]

I know we want the bees to survive, but I postulate we let them "have a go at it". I wanna see how bees naturally take care of losing a queen. Because if they can't do that, there's no way the species can survive. If in 8 days you see no change, my suggestion is to take a frame with a lot of eggs in it (from the Russians) and put it in the hive without a queen. They may be able to use those (fertilized) eggs to actually make a queen (and not just a bunch of drones).

[@vinofarm]

I'd be up for experimenting a bit with this hive if it was earlier in the season, but right now time is not on my side. We have about 6 more good weeks before the cold settles in and things grind to a halt. I need a queen yesterday...

[@diygardener4556]

Things aren't adding up on the initial look, which is why it seems confusing, because information may be missing which means it could be very complicated; however, with a forensic bee behavioral psychoanalysis, considering all the facts at hand, and options at hand, in conjunction with the sequence of events. This is my variable take on its possibilities. One you don't have a queen in there, because the one supersedure cell that was already there hatched, already swarmed, and has potentially started laying eggs, in a new hive. Though if im not mistaken the bees already had numerous small queen cups built, and if thats the case, some of those queen cups may have been layed in before queen Balboa initially swarmed, prior to the superceedure cell hatching. Small swarms do happen, especially if its a supersedure queen cell that initiates swarm cells, as a small swarm before a major brood hatch close to peak brood season, may not even be noticeable after 2 weeks of increasing brood hatch. Since the hive from the bees perspective for reasons not observable to our understanding, may be considered close enough to 80% full of currently usable space, and with the fall goldenrod flow on. The new supersedure queen who initially had opportunity to take over, may have felt the need to swarm as well, even if she had successfully bread, to be assured enough room for stores are available for the hives population, to survive winter within the given hive space. Since that tight schedule in superceedure queen production, its not very feasible on the time line available, for that queen to have layed, especially if your considering the last video was posted 12 days ago. That means in the 12 day uninspected cycle, high possibilities exist in the unknows between the 2 week inspection cycles, and I'll explain in the following segment statement. The new supersedure queen would have already swarmed, and the capped queen cells left behind aren't possible to be from the known supersedure queen; however, it doesn't exclude the possibility a different supersedure cell, lets call her the phantom superceedure queen, may have hatched hatch 5 or 6 days prior to the inspection before last, with her old cell already tore down, and her being out on a mating flight while the second to last inspection was being performed, specifically looking for a queen. Which does fit the needed time line, and is typical bee behavior; however, thats possible, but still unlikely. Based on all the back history there is only 4 total possibilities with 2 remaining. Another option is if queen Balboa was still in the hive after your last posing 12 days ago, because new eggs would have to be layed after queen Balboa was alleged missing, in order to have the eggs to create the new swarm cells at that current stage. So if your 100% sure no eggs were in any queen cups at that time. That means the 1 of the 4 options remain, and number 4 is a laying worker, layed in queen cups. Of the 1st option, those small swarm cell queen cups would have to existed on your last inspection, containg queen Balboa eggs, meaning if thats the case, they will be hatching within a 1 or 2 days of your inspection on this video. The time lines for making queens from eggs, only give about a 4 to 5 day window tops, from the moment the eggs layed, and the bees don't move larve or eggs to queen cups. The bees build the emergency or supersedure cells around standard brood comb, but swarm cell queen cups are layed in after they are built. As swarm cells queen cups are not altered around a standard brood cell after the egg was layed. Queen Balboa may have been superceded, but then conceeded to swarm once the superceedure was underway. Those queen cups looked perfect from my limited observational perspective, meaning they were queen cups layed in by a laying female. So being that the queen cups are perfect swarm cells, it means the eggs were layed into the cups intentionally for swarming, layed at maximum number between 15 and 10 days ago. Which is just enough time for the aforementioned phantom supersedure queen, to have potentially been responsible for egg laying, but still highly unlikely. So it's a much better chance queen Balboa went unnoticed in the hive, or layed in small queen cups that may have been hard to see as eggs, right before she swarmed, 12 or more days ago. Eggs go unnoticed especially if there's numerous small queen cups, and only 8 have eggs. Anyway, it takes 16 days from egg to hatching with queen development. 10 days as egg and larve, 6 as capped brood, and at least 3 days to mate a queen, but typically 7 till they are laying, meaning anywhere from 20 to 23 days total for an emergency cell queen to be laying in those queen cups. Giving the superceedure Phantom queen adequate time to develop unnoticed, then out breeding durin second to last inspection, and still gining adequate time to lay eggs developmening to capped swarm brood in the needed time frames. So technically there's 4 possibilities if you count the Phantom queen scenario, as the video from 12 days ago could have had a Phantom supersedure queen out on her mating flight, and the supersedure cell already removed by the worker bees upon your inspection. Meaning it pushes the potential scenario of a phantom supersedure queen laying in those queen cups moved forward by 4 to 5 days, so they would be capped cells by now with 5 or 6 days till they hatch. This is getting tricky! Knowing any potential delay from filming to posting of the last 2 videos could eliminate some probabilities by mathematic deduction; however, until then, these are the possibilities. Queens grow much quicker then worker larvea and brood. Then regarding space in the hive to induce swarming. Even if your hive appears to have more available space then 20% of undrawn frames, the bees may not consider that viable space, because late summer early fall, bees typically don't like to draw on plastic foundation. Meaning they don't consider it available space for food storage. When you consider how much space is there, and how much stores they instinctively need to survive winter. A late summer swarm is the only solution to insure enough room for honey storage to sustain the hive through winter. The plastic foundation is most likely the reason all your bees stopped drawing out comb so fast, and if you dropped a regular frame in there, you should notice they will draw it out very quickly. Try it as an experiment maybe? If you used a starter strip, or even some wax painted on the comb starting point. The bees will draw that comb out much faster. Especially when you're feeding, they'll draw all through the active feeding seasons, crazy fast. Plastic frames work great in the beginning of the season, but it slows down drastically towards the end of the season. Slowing dowm often times when comb is needed most for honey stores. Please consider the factual sequence of events that demonstrate something had to lay the new swarm cell eggs, if in fact queen Balboa wasn't present. Also the emergency queen cell that hatched, wouldn't necessarily be there at this time either, if the new swarm cells from queen Balboa are days from hatching. Which those swarm cells should be, and that is also a common time to swarm for preexisting unmated queens. Balboa may have layed and swarmed just before supersedure queen cell was ready to hatch, and supersedure queen may have swarmed, just before the Balboa swarm cell queens are ready to hatch. Which means they could all be balboa queens. Nuc splits anyone? In peak season from a healthy hive filled with brood, you wont notice a few pounds of bees mising, two weeks apart; however, it will appear the hive hasn't grown, and there will be no brood. Which in that season, is also a great strategy to eliminate verroa mites, when verroa numbers would normally be at peak. Multiple swarms from hives happen even from the same batch of swarm cells, as not all queens will kill the rivals still in the cells. Single swarms with multiple unbread queens in them at the same time are common, in addition multiple queens in one hive under temporary circumstances have been documented, in up to 10% of inspected hives. Often times queens won't fight untill they have both been bread, in many of the docile domesticated bee populations. If the queens don't fight after breeding, the workers will choose, and ball one up. Another quick rundown of the highest probibility would be, you have balboa laying in small starter queen cups right before she swarms, after the superceedure cell was already started and days from hatching. Eight Balboa swarm cell eggs went unnoticed, and the supersedure cell queen then takes another small swarm days after she's hatched, leaving your last batch of Balboa swarm cells without a queen, and brood less. With a hive that hasn't grown in numbers for the last 2 weeks. Sometimes from a single batch of swarm cells, 2 or 3 swarms have been observed leaving in succession days apart as I've just described. Check your swarm trap, one of those queens may be there. If thats not the case, the only options left are queen Balboa was there all along before she just recently swarmed, and your new supersedure queen is either on her mating flight or never made it back from her mating flight. Meaning that leaves a laying worker, and the odds of a laying worker just laying in queen cups, highly unlikely. Just as the odd would be unlikly a queen layed only in queen cups. Balboa is your highest probability, second best probability would be a superceedure queen who decided to swarm before laying any other eggs, because the sheer number of healthy swarm queens still in the hive. Please let us know what you learn, as this is getting interesting, and inquiring minds want to know! : )

[@vinofarm]

DIY Gardener Wow. I need to re-read this a few times with a calculator and calendar in front of me. So much information!!! I love my commenters.

[@diygardener4556]

Vino Farm - I tried to edit the post, to make it less confusing, but after proof reading it again, I'm thinking it didn't help... I'm probably not as well rested as i should be to explain the potential options and probability in an orderly comprehensive fasion. So I'll try to edit it again after a good nights rest, so at leat other patrions wandering by the thread can more easily understand the ramblings of a bee enthusiasts...lol. Hopefully there is just enough information, to help you peice together exactly what happened based on the time lines. I'll watch your posting from 12 days ago to see if I was right on small queen cups being in balboas hive, since I know your Russian hives have had queen cups on stand by from early on, and i could be mistaken on that perception. Cheers!

[@jo-han]

copy it to notepad++ or word or so and make it readible for yourself and make bullets for the options Then add notes and calculations from yourself. I always do that after I've been writing in this fashion of "Fast, get my thoughts on paper before they disappear!" :) But when commenting mostly the time is not there, so I get where DIY Gardeners writing style comes from... :)

[@silverreverence6176]

I hope you leave it to play out, would be great to keep one original bloodline, good luck either way though

[@vinofarm]

Yes, I'd really like to keep these genes going. But the survival of the hive is the first priority.

[@AIM54A]

Queen Balboa isn't hanging out in your swarm trap? I know its a long shot.. I'd say get a new queen in there asap.

[@vinofarm]

Ha ha! The swarm trap is the first place I looked! Still nothing in there. Oh well...

[@PsychoticusRex]

Put a frame of brood / eggs from a russian hive into the italian hive. no matter what happens it'll help, you shouldn't need more than one.

[@concepcionantunez3871]

I don't know nothing of bee this is the 1st time I'm see this programa get a queen bee I'm fascinated

[@theantithesis1]

Well, I am far from an expert. I am not even a beekeeper. Just an observer. But one thing I have noticed is that the Italian hive has surprised you in the past. Were it me, I would give it a week and see what's going on. Also, were I in your shoes, I would chalk most of this up to learning experience since you're still a new beekeeper and you've had a rough year after losing two hives over the winter. Chances are, the advice you're getting about getting a new mated queen or to combine with hive right is the best advice, but you want this hive to continue with the genetics of Queen Balboa, which won't happen if you do either. This may be sentimentality that will be this hive's undoing or they could bounce back again. It's a gamble. Are you willing to risk it? One thing I would check on if you haven't yet (I imagine you have) is why your bees from last year starved to death when there was honey inches away on the same frame. There may be some reason that you'll need to do things differently this winter.

[@PapaBee165]

I would let the hive go through the cycle of replacing the Queen to keep your blood line.

[@ayme9153]

Neither first nor last - imagine that! Got no advice for the Italians as I'm not a beekeeper, I have a feeling though it might be a little late for nature to run its course...

[@CharlesGinzel]

1 know you probbaly don't want do splits since you are trying to build them up, but if you did do at least one or more splits, you have as many opportunities to make a new queen as the number of splits you make. you can always recombine later for whichever don't work out or don't measure up. and you can also fortify from the russians if you have more than one you want to keep, but you feel are not large enough to finish building this season. my thinking is why take a risk on smarming and having many of your bees leave? also why not improve your odds of at least having one queen successfully mated locally? and in the best case you expand your hives going into winter!

[@vinofarm]

This hive is barely the size I want for winter already. I'm wary of doing a split now since we only have about 6 weeks until winter sets in. If this was June, I'd play with splits, but I think I need to try to keep this hive intact. Thanks for the suggestions.

[@CharlesGinzel]

I understand this is your current model of overwintering. but you might check into mike palmer's over wintered nucs at some point to see if that technique might work for you as well. he is further north than you are. you may need fewer bees than you think.

[@GUNTHERSHELL]

Will you place your hives in a protected shed or somewhere warmer and more protected from the snow this year? Its just awful to lose a hive when it can be avoided. good luck .

[@Diypics]

GUNTHERSHELL I was thinking somewhat along the same line, but I see a windbreak has been planted around the apiary recently. That should help.

[@GUNTHERSHELL]

As much time he has place into his bees, would he trust sapling trees to protect them all. Wind chill below zero is harsh. Livestock owners place chickens, goats, cows and horses into barns in bad climate conditions to keep them healthy and vibrant. Maybe he has something better up his sleeve this winter.

[@vinculaomega5283]

I'm a beginner beeskeeper myself, but if I understand things correctly a hive that has no queen, eggs and larvae cannot raise a queen on their own? They got to have a non-drone egg/young larvae that they can convert into a queen? So if they've been queenless for too long, the hive is doomed whatever they do? You might even get a 'laying worker' if they get really desperate (this is futile. Only drones emerge from such eggs)? As said, newbie, but from what I've read and understood your sole cause of action is a rapid requeening.

[@vinofarm]

These cells had to be the last remaining eggs from Queen Balboa before she died (or was killed) There are NO eggs left in the hive and NO larvae. I studied every frame top to bottom. There's bee nothing laying in this hive for over two weeks. If these swarm cells do not produce a queen, they have no other chance unless I add in a frame of Russian brood. This is the dilemma... wait to see what happens with the swarm cells... or find a mated queen somewhere.

[@celticqaidbear]

Re queen or move frame

[@krispapas9834]

Did that cell hatch?

[@vinofarm]

Don't know if it hatched and the virgin queen is out mating somewhere or if the bees tore it down for some reason. All I know is it's not there and there is no evidence of a laying queen.

[@bullydad1]

I think it's time to cut your losses and do a newspaper combine with your weaker Russian hive. Way too late in the season to expect the Italians to get sorted out and survive the winter on their own. Good luck and awesome videos!

[@moniquewright312]

nice intro!

[@vinofarm]

Thanks. It looked even better when I edited it, but it looks fuzzy to me after uploading. KZbin does a lot of compression. I just may need to start shooting/uploading in 4K!

[@gregwaskom3700]

rozier in Georgia has queens. 18 dollars ea. will have it i 1 to 3 days they are vsh Italian

[@sandrocamargo698]

Greg, how can I contact this rozier?? Thanks!

[@gregwaskom3700]

Sandro Camargo 912 339 1555

[@sandrocamargo698]

Thank you Greg!!!

[@aaronsmith7976]

If you have drones, I'd let them try to raise their own queen. The queen cells look pretty mature so you could be within 10 days of having a mated, laying queen. You may need to strengthen the population with brood from another hive and the other hives are strong enough to spare a few eggs. If you don't have drones then look into buying a local queen.

[@craig6903]

If you can find a queen for sale, it would be the safe bet.

[@vinofarm]

Definitely the safe route. I just need to locate one.

[@drrota]

Try nebees in Tyngsboro they may still have Carnolian queens available late in the season. Overall recommendation - "Belt and suspenders" method - add the new queen, and take a frame of young capped and older-capped brood (one from each of the strong Russian hives) - so you don't lose brood continuity into the fall. Those queen cells are likely from a laying worker. One way to tell if there's a virgin queen out getting mated - the workers will 'pre-clear 'brood pattern' areas on frames (moving nectar up to the corners/top) in hopes that the queen will come back to lay. Sorry to hear Balboa is TKO. My white queen had a similar slow year starting off (I'm also in MA), and she went along for a ride with a split and is still going strong. Hope your new queen picks up the slack and carries them through. I've heard that a new queen late in the season is a good way to get a booming hive early next year. (eg: plan for a split in the spring.)

[@Lombricompostagefacile]

Why don't you put a super on top of your russian beehives in order to collect honey during this month with loads of flowers and nectar ?

[@vinofarm]

They had months to draw out frames of comb and this is where they are. Still undrawn frames of comb in the boxes they have. They're not going to draw out new supers now. I have no drawn frames to give them. I seem to have slow bees.

[@Lombricompostagefacile]

Vino Farm you have your Flow Hive supers which are already drawn no ?

[@vinofarm]

Not really... They are semi-formed cells, but the bees need to complete them with wax. And then there's now way at all they will fill them up and cap them in time for winter. I am going to let them keep filling what they have and they should be OK. If the larger Hive Left fills up, maybe I'll add a medium super, but they'll need to draw the frames and I doubt they will this late in the season. Oh well. The goal is for them to survive the winter and catch the SPRING flow as a healthy, strong colony. I don't really care about the honey right now.

[@OldHatIdeas]

I'd let the bees do their thing with the swarm cells they have.

[@T289c]

The Queen kills the other queen cells right after she emerges.So maybe that other one never made it. You should let whatever queen they made emerge, kill the other queens and get laid and come back. If you see a bunch of drones at your hive soon, then she has gone and come back (Drones follow the mated queen back with workers). BTW its NOT FALL YET. September 21st. You want that survivor Italian to procreate! She was good survivor stock and now you get local genetics! Pray you make a new queen and she mates! Have Faith!

[@vinofarm]

Thanks for the advice, Thomas! Part of me just wants to sit back and observe what they do, but part of me also wants to do what's BEST to increase chances that these genes survive. I'm listening to all suggestions!

[@Nelsius]

Buy a new fecundated queen, the summer Is ending AND you need a strong colony

[@vinofarm]

Check out my next three videos!

[@nicktohzyu]

buying a queen would ensure good genetics

[@krispapas9834]

A queen laid the swarm cells

[@vinofarm]

Those swarm cells were being formed if you look closely on the last video "What happened to Queen Balboa?". They are most likely from the eggs of old queen Balboa.

[@jesteris25]

sorry was at my uncles funeral best advice I can give you is destroy about half you Queen cels and check next week for activity

[@ianturkstra8221]

Glad the Russians are doing well! I'd let the Italians do their thing. Should be hatching soonish and if you have drones around hopefully the queen that wins the fight will mate and start laying. I'd imagine it's too late to buy a queen...

[@DreamofaHive]

The problem you have is that it is too early to tell if you have a virgin running around (the cell was capped last time you looked but you don't know when it was due to hatch. There were other uncapped cells at the time so those were less than a week old - they are capped on day 9. One thing for certain is that they are swarm cells and not emergency cells. The thing about cast swarms is the age of the cells, where there are different ages they can swarm again. So, as to getting a new queen - it would be better as you will have a laying queen to lay the winter bees you will need to go into winter and get you through to spring BUT the queen will not be accepted if there is a virgin running around in there. I would say you have 3 options : 1). Leave well alone for another 2 weeks and take whatever happens (you could do a newspaper combine with one of the russian hives if things go pear shaped and re-split in the spring) 2). Split into two with queen cells ( reduce to one or two cells max) in both splits - this will double your chances of a mated queen - pick the best laying queen if you end up with 2 and recombine for winter if they both mate. 3). Buy a new queen now and set her up in a nuc with a frame of capped brood and frame of stores - wait to see what happens with the potentially hatched virgin - it is going to take at least a week before you spot any eggs/larvae as they take 4 days from hatching before they start to do orientation then mating flights and potentially a further week for ovaries to fully develop after mating flights. You should definitely reduce to 1 or 2 good looking queen cells. Then you can make the decision to cull or keep. The mated queen is basically your insurance policy that you have a mated queen and 3 hives going into winter.

[@vinofarm]

Thank you for this advice! You are always very clear and make it easy for this novice to understand. I am learning a lot from comments tonight. I think I'm starting to hatch a plan.

[@gregwaskom3700]

DreamofaHive the only choice is let the hive die or get a new queen. without drones it wont matter how many virgins hatch. if there is one in there now it probably to late for her to get mated good. a mated queen is only way to get brood. built up before winter

[@DreamofaHive]

there is a flow on and I can see drones on the frames being held up to the camera :) ...nothing ventured nothing gained

[@gregwaskom3700]

DreamofaHive if they had a virgin in there they would be tearing down the other queen cells. and if you still have good drone numbers your doing good. ours have been gone for 2 weeks in s indiana. but even with drones. it will be way into oct before your new bees would bee emerging. you only have a couple big brood cycles left if you buy a queen. if you dont very little time for new bees

[@neoben00]

How do youtubers struggle with charging their cammera?

[@vinofarm]

Allow me to explain. 100% of the time, I'm recording myself. I do not have assistants or a production crew. I'm also narrating the video in real time and standing in a bee yard actually caring for live bees. There are occasions where I have the camera running and don't realize how long it's been running and I'm doing or saying something in front of the camera. The battery runs out and I don't realize it and keep talking to the camera. Then I go to change the camera angle and realize the battery died but I don't know how much action I missed. And all that action I missed was usually stuff I can't just go back and re-shoot. So I mention it on camera to explain why there was a jump in the action. Yes, I carry spare batteries, but sometimes I go through them all and I still have work to do and I don't feel like dropping everything and running down to the house for a battery because the sun is setting, or it's about to rain or whatever... There's lots of reasons why batteries cause problems for youtubers.

[@neoben00]

@@vinofarm ohhh i see. I didnt realize you were filming alot more than you use for your videos. I keep a few hives also so i know the pain of not opening hives up again after you forget something.

[@vinofarm]

neoben00 Neoben00 Yes, I turn on the camera when I walk into the bee yard. After a day of opening hives I might have three hours of footage. I edit it down to 10-15 minute videos.

[@bwakel310]

Buy a queen. Place out of Cali will next day queens to you.

[@tvtecna]

The irony of buying a mail order bride here... First for everything right? I'd let the Italians do their thing.

[@bobandena]

You have other hives..it's very late in the season....just let be...maybe you can learn a lot by doing nothing.

[@dracarys6775]

First!