FINAL PTR (1.36.2) Review & Balance Talk ft. Dondolare

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#warcraft3 #back2warcraft #patch #PTR1362

[@cadukizzi]

What is the point in buffing Humans, the strongest race in the game, over and over in every new patch?

[@user-fu2tx9hp4r]

Just for Happy having little more trouble winning Fortitude bearly every game. Its all.

[@anthillmobstars]

Lots of cool changes get crapped on by Neo and Blizzard listens to him. In addition saying "everyone thinks" and "no one wants" as if he speaks for everyone and knows what they think.

[@millancche]

Dude's a king of bad and just awfully wrong takes on this game.

[@cpt.murphy811]

I understand that patch was done by happy hater, but he forgets that there are other UD players.

[@millancche]

Fast forward to May 2025: ghouls are 190hp, 9-10dmg. Happy is still number one w3 player, plays with UD and ghouls, nobody else in the world plays undead anymore.

[@MrBenazra]

@@millancche190hp 🤣🤣🤣 a critter on steroid

[@millancche]

@@MrBenazra you laugh now, but it's gonna happen if they continue like this :)

[@StormLord94]

Yay, cant wait for another episode of "Unrationally hating anything Grubby related to protect Neo's echochamber" You guys never disapoint

[@MiyuAASA]

Please listen to NOBODY and do patch on your own blizzard, or you shall not change anything. Look how ridiculous this game has became. If you can't beat happy then just let him go but not make this game total shit.

[@winterfall_0]

Just another patch where an already midiocore race gets nerfed because of one player who is better than everyone else.

[@timfink7980]

Did human get nerfed? Look quite balanced

[@cpt.murphy811]

@@timfink7980 hum has 50+% winrate in ladder with other races now.

[@timfink7980]

@@cpt.murphy811 maybe human players are just better.

[@cpt.murphy811]

​@@timfink7980 maybe they got better with the last patch, before it they were at the bottom

[@xtremelemon8612]

@@timfink7980delusional or trolling

[@nightyonetwothree]

make aboms explode on death, dealing damage, slow and plague all around. Would be super funny combo with death pack / dark ritual. ALSO: how about changing aboms' damage to siege? Sounds crazy, but it will really help vs siege engines, while they are still being useless fighters and heavily countered by knights and gryphons.

[@leonjuric2486]

If I'm not mistaken, the original design for abominations was intended to create a tanky unit that would explode upon death.

[@nightyonetwothree]

@@leonjuric2486 dunno. But the model have exactly this juicy explosion animation

[@xtremelemon8612]

Cant believe you guys are willing to destroy the game just to get rid of Happy. Plus its toxic towards him because Im sure it hurts his feelings as the hate is coming from the community as well as the devs now :( , as he said in his last interview in a subtle way

[@nightyonetwothree]

also for taurens: movement resistance can be achived via reducing their movement speed to 150, but granting self-aura with ~+80% movespeed. It will result in 270 movespeed, but they'll get ~45% resistance to movemet slow and accelerations (also, such as TC aura). Human sorc slow (40%) will reduce them to 150*(1+(0.8-0.4)) = 210 ms (previously 162).

[@Back2Warcraft]

Broooo thats smart

[@millancche]

I had to double check my calendar to make sure it's 2024, and not 2018, as they're still buffing NE :) Also, let's make sure we nerf one race and make it unplayable for 90% of the player base, because there's one crazy Russian dude that invests 4x more time and skill in this game than literally anyone else.

[@Eddy_111]

they buffin NE because it has been nerfed in consecutive patches and it has been disgracefully bad in tournaments in at least the past year.

[@dogand366]

Orcs are playing now more wyvern than before… they should make orcs more vulnerable if they fast tec. They are playing just „without“ buildings & units early game and tec. Especially undeads are now ONLY playing against mass wyvern. Maybe they could reduce the available inside burrow place from 4 peons to 3/2 it would even make early rushes more possible against fast tec.

[@Biobin123]

I would call this patch “ adjafsandali “ - it’s Georgian dish where you mix many ingredients… I don’t think this is a good patch but i am noob so hopefully tournament results will prove me wrong…

[@EpicNoob838]

Cringefest, even you yourself admit being a noob, you probably don't even trust in your own opinion why should anyone care about what you have to say? Keep that shit to yourself.

[@nightyonetwothree]

i like this patch as it clearly show anti-ud bias among balance team. Ghouls nerfed for no reason, all others "buffs" do almost nothing to change state of the worst race in the game - ud (i showed w3champions stats where ud have 45% wr vs ne and orc and below 35% vs human when top player of each race excluded from stats (ie Happy, Kaho, Sok, Focus)). T2 temple to just get extremely expensive dispel (75g/dispel) and delay t3? Sounds only 2x base ud can afford it, overwise you'll never see this item. Imagine orc going fast t2 with fs, then get sh 2nd hero - ud need to dispel summons (wolves) and hex - are any sane ud going temple vs wyvs? Previously they added 10 seconds to nerf haunted mine, so now they can get 5 seconds back and call it a buff. Abom +2 damage is a joke. Even after those +2 damage, knight do 20%+ more dps than aboms. Even "never used" taurens outdamage aboms with no-graded pulverize (both 270 ms, but taurens have more armor and hp, and aoe (and possibly upgraded pulverize)). Aboms will keep be just a plague carrier. Aboms even not much cheaper than anolong - knights are almost same price, but +20-25% dps, +30% movespeed. But all other races get very straithforward buffs that can help. NE: lots of mini-staff: cheaper ents, cheaper nature blessings +hp wisps are nice, stronger searing arrows (still will not affect elves much), improved fok. => pretty much the same as before, but lots of mini QoL. Orc: wyvs grants less experience (direct buff to best orc strat vs ud, which no ud can beat atm) biase over 9000. Taurens get +20 ms - nice, bears and aboms want it too (but get nothing). Serpent ward (level 3) damage reduced by 2 - to help elves vs orc. Nice try, but level 3 wards itself is already a dead sentence for all elven units, even -4% damage reduction on serpent wards will not help them. Human: sundered cost changes almost nothing as most of the map have easy access to shredder and 99% of games human go 2 bases. Rifleman +hp is a joke - they are already 2nd strongest range ground unit (after hh), with cheapest upgrades, lots of hp (already) and best synergy among their heroes and units - they are literally kings of t2 units. Same as serpent wards and hh kill all ne units, same do rifles. The only reason rifleman arent so popular - is because all other human units are insanly strong too.

[@nightyonetwothree]

i'll add some interesting fact about units movement speed: 1. The most common movement speed in wc3 is 270 ~70% of units. 2. ~20% of units are fast with 320 ms (huntress, spellbreakers, am, fs, dk, bm, sh, dh, kotg, potm, wyverns, destoyers, gryphons, etc etc) - mostly mounted units/heroes and agi heroes. 3. The rest are siege units with 220 ms, workers with 250 ms (also chimaeras); 4. The fastest units are 400 ms air Hippogryphs and FlyingMachines, the Gargs are the closest to them with 375ms. 5. Every race have exactly 1 ground units with exceptional 350 movement speed - Knight (hum t3), Dryad (ne t2), Raider (orc t2), Frenzy Ghoul (ud t3). And that's i want to talk about: And now they want to take 350ms unit from ud. Some Qs: 1. would we see the most broken Raider (SSS+ tier due to siege damage and ensnare) movement nerf also? (as TC also have and +ms aura, also speedscrolls)? The unit, which lamely destroy all matchups via basetrades, also providing best herokilling disable without cast master training/manacosts/which cannot be dispeled/staffed. 2. would we see nerf to knights' movement? The unit is already have best stats for cheapest price among all t3 ground units, while also having +30% movent over them? Countering ranged-units never been such an easy, as knight dps is extremely high (even w/o sundering blades), but their dps allows them butcher other mellee counterparts and even units which supposed to be their counter (casters).

[@diyano2]

@@nightyonetwothree I've decided to turn to hum with the first look over the patch notes.....or just quit?

[@magicprogram]

Happy is the most important reason for me to watch w3 game. Happy should consider changing to play hum in the next version, especially when his best loving rifle man got stronger.

[@cadukizzi]

The fact that he plays the lowest tier race and succeeds is one of the reasons why we love him.

[@jorgeosmarfernandezceballo4471]

Its stupid if Blizzard really think all the UD players are Happy to micro a 330HP heavy armor unit with 50 speed, RIP ghouls

[@Biobin123]

Frenzy ghouls with lvl 1 aura is faster than knights even after the change… and chances are dk will be having lvl 2 aura at 9.5 minutes:)

[@horderob2025]

@@Biobin123 "faster". 352 ms vs 350. And ONLY if DK around. Why the fuck you need ms aura if the only thing it doing is compensating slow units so they could have the same speed? Nerf every elf range unit attack then, they have potm aura. Nerf every orcs unit attack speed, they have tauren. Nerf raiders ms to 320 too, they have 352 with tauren, "like knights". Take all armor from humans, they have Pala aura.

[@Biobin123]

@@horderob2025 Dude chill :) I said it is nerf but they could have balanced it up by buffing other units. I also said that ghouls will be still in every game wanna bet? :)

[@horderob2025]

@@Biobin123 on what?

[@horderob2025]

@@Biobin123 i do. On what?

[@nightyonetwothree]

for zeppeling better solution would be reduce speed at which units get unloaded from it. And maybe timing at which it become available.

[@Sinraye89]

They should make more NE units viable. Would be fun to see something else other than dryads and bears. Other races armies are so much more diverse. (noob perspective btw)

[@zelassin]

UD has same problem

[@Omnideus_]

Agreed.

[@nightyonetwothree]

Your Moonwell have math issue - you suppose mana is 2x expensive than hp, but it's 4x more expensive as health restored cost 0.5 moonwell mana and mana restored cost 2 point of moonwell mana. Any NE player should knew it 20 years ago.

[@stefanocioni2587]

Keep making human stronger. Ridiculous

[@xtremelemon8612]

the worse is they say its not a big deal, while pala rifle is already a strong compo vs any other race, now with only 10 rifles your army will have 100 extra hp as a whole with devotion aura and inner fire (with priests) and so those 100 hp will have massive armor bonuses ON TOP. Yeah sure "no big deal". You just cant make this up.

[@Omnideus_]

Agreed. As an Elf player I hate the fact that humans almost have a guaranteed early expo and can go str8 to elf base and kill wisp or cancel buildings.

[@stefanocioni2587]

@@xtremelemon8612 its cause all the chinese love lame pala so they will never ever nerf it, its the only way any human can win against decent players anyways, mass priests and rifles

[@stefanocioni2587]

@@Omnideus_ lol elf matchup against human is the worst; i am undead and human always whinge about 'timing' yet they do not stop doing it to elf and orc lmao

[@stefanocioni2587]

the fact is that 25 plus years later the game is still requiring these updates; so dumb; its why the game willl just never make it on the mainstream; too much lame and too many easy exploits; so broken

[@RolfReibach]

the patch is lackluster. it is too shy with too many low impact changes. I mean, what does a flame strike channel time change of 0.1 do? do not even write this in a patch, it is a joke. where is the UD counter to tanks? they removed it in the form of curse and added no replacement. lol, just bad. the list goes on...

[@robinliu2018]

in fact, UD should be nelf, the UDer whoes MMR between 1800 to 2200 win ratio should be very very very high.

[@karpai5427]

That Zeppelin nerf was a punch in the gut. Whats next? Make Overlords cost 1 Control too?

[@Vigsoe14]

Necromancers needs to be reworked. There are many ways of doing this. Why not try and make them magic immune on the ptr and see how it plays out? They're still hard countered by every dispell in the game, they will still feed opponent with xp from skeletons, they will still get blown to bits by any siege dmg, but atleast they wont be one-shot by storm bolt.

[@millancche]

UD casters need reworked spells. Right now, it's 5 fully dipellable, stealabke and devourable spells plus one that is useless against a player with decent micro (possession). That's horrible. All other races casters have at least something that works in spite of dispel - purge, wards, dispel, heal, dry ads and druid being hybrid caster/combat units etc.

[@Biobin123]

@@millancche Hate on necro is understandable. But banshee? I mean banshee is a reason of at least 70% of wins against human especially… they are not useless they are on of the best. If bear is caster destroy is not? And if destro is you think they are useless? They are essential unit for ud … Possession is not useless skill… is codo devour useless cause you need to go in and eat while enemy can micro back units and/or just kill codo before or even after devour? 5 sec stun into getting high value unit is a great skill and even if you just force enemy to have 3 hero with 3 staff they won’t be able to stuff heroes and stuff knights need time to get back to fight… saying that sok, forty have no decent micro cause they lose units against possession is just not right… Necro needs rework i am 99.5% sure… worm needs more help too

[@millancche]

@@Biobin123 honestly, I don't know about this banshees being useful agains human thing, got some example match? But if it's some weird super late 2-3 base move to banshees, don't bother, that doesn't count. I'm asking for making necros or banshees worth getting straight after T2 is done and getting a temple immediately. Right now they're useless and a liability. Either necros or banshees need one non dispellable, non devourable, non stealable ability. Losing units to poseesion is quite embarrassing, tbh :)

[@Biobin123]

@@millancche With necros i agree. But i don’t think current blizzard will or even car rework units… just can mess with numbers… and without reworking if you buff necros too much than you get most hated strategy in game meta… if you buff little bit than it will be useful for harassing and massing won’t be a thing… they need rework …

[@millancche]

@@Biobin123 yup, and remember the disaster that was when they did the switcharoo on necromancer abilities? But how about we, for example, nerf slightly everything about unholy frenzy, the effect, duration, mana cost, HP loss, BUT make it undispellable, u stealable and undeavourable, like poison, disease or doom? I'd try playing with such necromancers, honestly :)

[@009_Ghostly_Systematic]

Here's a buff for wyvern without breaking the game. Increase their attack range +10 or even 20.

[@009_Ghostly_Systematic]

@@Igorsov they can have this ability unlocked if a hero is level 10 and all upgrades from orc has been researched.

[@Benjamin-howdytiger]

Are a lot of these grubbys ?

[@GreatOne_1]

It is 80% of his job

[@voswouter87]

What about giving Tauren 150 melee range?

[@karpai5427]

I wonder how good Wand of Negation would have been if it acted like the Ray of Disruption of a Draenei Harbinger. Because it looks like one but acts like regular Priest Dispel. It confuses me.

[@IvanBorsenco]

Blizzard has no art developers available to make a new icon for the Wand of Negation. It will take too much time and resources from the company.

[@karpai5427]

@@IvanBorsenco I just don't see Ray of Disruption often. Not even in custom maps. I don't even know how exactly it works.

[@leonjuric2486]

rip ghouls ?

[@Biobin123]

No, ghouls will be still used to: 1. Get lumber- so do their main job 2. Help creep early on 3. Help expand and/or shut down enemy expansion 4. Very strong with dk lvl 3 aura So basically they will be same till frenzy and than almost same after dk lvls up. Considering dk is mostly starting hero and during frenzy he is 5 or close to 5 it not that big of a window. It will basically weaken timing hit ghouls+destro coil nova gg

[@jorgeosmarfernandezceballo4471]

​@@Biobin123 DK lvl 5 in 9:30 minutes? And you think its better to learn the aura instead coil? Don't say shit just for be agree to giganerf UD

[@timfink7980]

I mean it’s a tier 1 base unit that also gathers lumber and is dirt cheap. They don’t need to be the best dps minion in the game aswell..

[@Biobin123]

@@jorgeosmarfernandezceballo4471 1. I said i don’t like this patch 2. “ dk will be lvl 5 or close to it so it will need lvl or two for lvl 3 aura “ doesn’t mean they will skip coil… 3. Ghouls will be same till frenzy so till 9.5 minutes they will be dominating. After that they will still be faster than knights so one of the fastest units in game, and after getting lvl 3 aura it will be same- so no ghouls are not dead they will still be played in every game. 4. Problem with patch is not ghouls nerf but not having buffs for other ud heroes and units to balance things up

[@leonjuric2486]

@@timfink7980 Don't forget that it's the only primary unit (among footmen, grunts and archers) that doesn't have a damage reduction or health increase upgrade.

[@xbruyre]

Hey Neo, isn't the zeppelin supply nerf a rather big deal for late game FFA or am I mistaken?

[@brandonkellner2920]

they should just start over with their patch

[@zelassin]

This patch is trash

[@EpicNoob838]

Neo thought blizzard was going to implement every single suggested change for all races from everyone who had their 2 cents on the matter and that's why he doesn't like the way blizzard does things??? They are under no obligation and neither should they implement every single change everone suggests, it's not cherry picking it's called they have a mind of their own they aren't your personal bitches... In the first place you should be grateful they're still so generous to be working on WC3 with a few patches per year, don't act like a self-important spoiled brat because you didn't get the exact toy you wanted. If you want full control then go ahead and make your own RTS.

[@gromba]

Calm down Jimmy.

[@EpicNoob838]

@@gromba Who's Jimmy. Side note if anything they should remove 1v1 maps containing an unreasonable amount of gold mines from 1v1 map pool such as lost temple. There's absolutely no reason any 1v1 map should have that many goldmines, all it accomplishes is make the game potentially last like up to 1;30 - 2+ hours and allows people to just grief, hide buildings and endless hidden expos and play like a bitch. IMO they need to make more good maps such as echo isles for 1v1, 1 natural expo each and one mine in middle to contest, if you can't win with 2 or 3x 12.5k gold you just don't deserve to win, this 12 mine bullshit needs to stop, keep that shit for FFA or 2v2/3v3...

[@DannyB0y257]

🤣🤣🤣

[@4bafiafzil999]

​@@EpicNoob838I agree, 1v1 maps at most only 1 main and 2 expos for each player so 6 gold mines at most. The size also need to be limited to medium. Large maps only favor 1 race and that's human

[@daveevangelist4633]

Taking the Tauren T2 away is suuuuch a bummer that was gonna be fun 🤦‍♂️

[@karpai5427]

Can't people just learn to win against Happy? Ghouls were never a good combat unit. They die all the time. Yeah it is convinient that they are free to heal and still useful at home, but it takes one clap to kill all of them.

[@timfink7980]

If they aren’t a good combat unit anyway then basically Ud just gets buffs with wand introduced in shop, Abo buff, frost buff,… So why cry?

[@millancche]

But they don't want to invest in clap. They don't want to try chainwave ghouls. They want to play exactly the same strat for decades, same wolf/stomp, elemental/bolt BS, and want to force blizzard to make it work for them... God forbid they try to understand that healing scroll gone from UD shop is a nerf to ghouls, and that now aoe combos can deal with ghouls much more effectively. But no. Why would they use their brains or change their strats?

[@millancche]

​​​@@timfink7980are you trolling, or just, what? A minor and useless buffs to two useless units is somehow comparable to you?

[@GreatOne_1]

Grubbys work, worked! In that name Work, work!

[@atonlort5666]

49:23- disagree with this. mass detonate aka 5 wisps cost 300gold . If sacrificing your own worker units for some aoe dispel and small mana burn, to kill some summons and mana drain some priests/walkers etc, that can be countered by spreading them, then how much should wand of negation cost ? Since the opponents sees them moving towards the army, can spread his units, can kill most of them before they detonate(having 10 hp after an aoe means they get 1-shoted by every unit with a single hit) causing 300g loss in workers , should wisps die to a single aoe ? Also what's stopping a hero with some aoe, panda/naga/fs going ino the ne base and killing a bunch of wisps , and then running away ? Have their wisps spread out maybe, probably outside the base delaying lumber production, and still having the risk of them being discovered and poped one by one? but asking priests ,walkers and other caster to be spread out momentarily is to much i guess... Idk maybe i'm missing something here.... On top of that Ne units being so low on health is what makes them moon well dependent . From the last patch we take that we don't want ne to have strong moon wells, but this time we also don't ne to have decent units that are not mw dependent 🤣 This is why some ne don't don't recommend other people to play NE, the race seems like a joke that is tuned to the comfort of other races, hence the moon wells nerf in the last ptach🤣 I can't wait to see after this patch grubby and his fans complaining about moon wells again. And i can't wait for the next mw nerf in 6 months 🤣 Also can't believe blizzard actually put want of negation behind the temple of the damned, are the blizzard devs smoking grubby 🤣🤣 ?

[@brunoandrespadillanavarro8923]

Why not make taurens passive work while he is walking without reducing too much of his speed (accelerating his annimation only while walking), that way, even if he is slow he can still be useful while he tries to find the best place he can be in combat. This will not fix everything about him and competitively would probably not make much of a difference, bur at least he will be less janky to use in teamfights, resulting in more usage and from tehn we can discuss further balance.

[@brunoandrespadillanavarro8923]

Another suggestion, just so we don't copy resistant skin, (I know that we shouldn't suggest changes that require a lot of peogramming, sorry) why don't we give tauren a property that allied spells either don't cost full mana in him, or reimburse a percentage of the mana the allied caster used (maybe except heroes because shadow hunger heal), so supporting tauren is not as punishing

[@brunoandrespadillanavarro8923]

The excel spreadsheet change is to give them a buff when they get debuffed, like more damage in next attack, or ensuring a pulverize prompt.

[@joshydillens148]

Ty

[@xtrakewlguy666]

It takes a lot to make a stew...

[@dantonkull6491]

Do we all agree this is a bad patch?

[@bigben9463]

Not sure about that

[@millancche]

Well, it's definitely Anti-Happy/Anti-UD patch 7.0.1 or something, whether it's good or bad is really up to you to decide :)

[@jacintoramon1313]

Yep. Terrible patch. NE vs UD still terrible. UD vs HU still terrible. Taurens still terrible.

[@jacintoramon1313]

But we have to agree that ghouls and curse needed a nerf. That should come with making other units viable like necros and wyrms, give the skellis desease cloud or improve the mov speed of the necros, making the wyrms 6 supply and research faster or something. Theyre unplayable right now. Also i think nova and clap need a dmg cap just like shockwave, fan of knives, breath of fire. The PoTM buff is good but shes nos gonna se game either way. The HU buffs are ridiculous The wyvern exp also terrible The tauren mov speed is useless. They need to resist slow for viability Witch doctor buff seems kinda meh because they dont have dispel so why make them

[@cadukizzi]

Yes.

[@grizzlypaws461]

I just want server updates.

[@homoerot03]

lol

[@MyHomeExperiments]

Instead of reducing ghoul speed, just nerf unholy aura so that UD is not dependent on 1 hero. +10% speed on entire army at level 2 is the longest running imbalance in the game.

[@4bafiafzil999]

You might as well remove unholy aura coz it has been nerfed twice already

[@MyHomeExperiments]

@@4bafiafzil999 no. 5% 10% 15%

[@shamanisticaltv]

Un Nerf blades wind walk cool down

[@randomname9723]

no. Blade agility maybe should be unnerfed but the Wind Walk change was a smart and healthy change.

[@johnnyenglish1652]

Rifleman does not need a HP boost. However, Rifleman lacks a special effect skill like all other 3 food range units do. Recommend following: HP: Reduce from 535->520. Headshot (requires upgrade): 10% chance to deal a critical strike (+50%) and cause mini-stun for 0.5s (0.1s against hero).

[@millancche]

BS :) hp boost is fine. They do have one specific unique advantage you're forgetting, but I like it a lot - instant-hit attack, no projectile flying time delay, like all the others. Very rare, almost unique, frost Nova also hits instantly, can't think of what else right now, nova as spell, rifle shot... That's it? :) everything else takes time to get to you and then apply dmg. Oh, holy light too.

[@Tyuwhebsg]

marry me neo now i have your attention, buff human :D

[@kostasvapo69]

None is satisfied never. Whats wrong with you guys...

[@IrvinLep]

Make pulverize an active ability like ensnare. Problem solved

[@BasilAbdef]

Tauren just need the spirit walkers' resistant skin to make them great. Make it an expensive upgrade and remove the free mini-pulverize to balance it out.

[@armanaryn8372]

Doesn't help because orc has less sustaine on casters still ​@@BasilAbdef

[@karpai5427]

Why are they listening to Grubby? Blood mage can afford an invulneribility potion every time he wants to use Flame Strike to not be inturrapted. He is the best hero.

[@timfink7980]

He’s super good. But not because of flame strike, like at all

[@karpai5427]

@@timfink7980 Yes, and because of Siphon Mana, Flame Strikes are free anyway.