Finding a bad neutral on a Service - Raw footage

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Bobsdecline - Lineman blogger

Bobsdecline - Lineman blogger

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 403
@thephantom1492
@thephantom1492 Жыл бұрын
You did it the hard way. You could have measured the voltage on each side of the junction. Should have been basically 0V. You had 3V there.
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
Yes and no. The initial test of the meter socket determines what exactly I'm looking for... A bad neutral or a loose connection, maybe even a bad tap clamp. Once you've determined that there's a bad neutral you could definitely move forward by checking across each neutral connection for a voltage drop. The only other problem with that method is; if you've missed a connection or somehow skipped one you won't realize it. When using voltage on each leg if you suddenly start seeing good voltage you will know you have gone too far down the line.
@robertmeyer4744
@robertmeyer4744 Жыл бұрын
The way the test was done was the fastest way to find the open . once you find the open point you cam measure across that crimp. you keep going to the source of power until you get normal voltage. it is much quicker that way. this way you do not have to test every crimp for voltage drop.
@MattAtHazmat
@MattAtHazmat Жыл бұрын
Not a lineman, but wouldn't something like a thermal camera have shown this immediately? A drop of 4V with 1A going through that crimp means 4W- so heat is being generated.
@Monkeh616
@Monkeh616 Жыл бұрын
@@MattAtHazmat 4W is a very, very small amount of heat in a large piece of aluminium wire open to air. It's not likely to show up well.
@5P3AM
@5P3AM Жыл бұрын
@@Bobsdecline Why can you get 400v on a 230v on one phase in a TN-C-S system if you lose the neutral?
@liberty-matrix
@liberty-matrix Жыл бұрын
When the power goes out at night and we're all just sitting around thinking, 'somebody's working on it right now.', - this is the guy! Bravo Bob!
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
Hey all! I wanted to show a couple shots of this job because we receive flickering light calls quite often. There can be dozens of reasons as to why the lights are flickering but there are two main categories: - Loose "hot" connection. or - Bad neutral. It's important to figure out what exactly you're looking for first. A bad neutral can harm customer equipment, so it's important to rectify that problem before leaving. A bad/loose hot connection - voltage will always go down. If voltage goes up on one side, you have a bad neutral. it's literally as simple as that. That being said, there are the occasional transformer or tap changer problems that can result in high voltage.. If that's the case the voltage will be consistently high as opposed to high/normal as load is removed. ** I should have also show in that last clip, that if you check voltage across a bad connection you will see that 4/5 volt drop.
@troyb2208
@troyb2208 Жыл бұрын
Super helpful thank you
@Chris-el4qc
@Chris-el4qc Жыл бұрын
Great video I was working ina foreclosure house some lights were very bright I tried using an air compressor it would only buzz. I measured two outlets one had180 the other had only 60 volts great job explaining what happened
@ShukenFlash
@ShukenFlash Жыл бұрын
I see that a lot in automotive or HVAC work. Checking the voltage drop to find the resistance, aka the bad connection.
@jhacklack
@jhacklack Жыл бұрын
why does the voltage go up?
@apctech1
@apctech1 Жыл бұрын
should show what house lights look like in a call like this so the rest of us know what to look for before calling the power company
@stephanc9288
@stephanc9288 Жыл бұрын
We had this exact problem like 25 years ago in an old house my parents had. The neutral connection had basically rotted right off on the house side of the service drop. It was an old house so everyone assumed it was faulty wiring inside the house and wasted a day or two going through all the wiring in the house. In that time we lost a few appliances, electronic devices, etc. before one of us happened to look up at the service and see the neutral wire either wasn't attached or was barely hanging on. (I was young then so I cant remember exactly now.) Power company came out and re did the service connections and everything was fine after that. Great video as usual!
@rickhawkins218
@rickhawkins218 Жыл бұрын
If the neutral was grounded to a water pipe in your house and also another adjacent house, the unbalanced load would have 'found its way' back to the transformer through the common water pipe. This is why smart people are careful with their ground lug lifting and reconnecting. You may find 120 volts between the lifted ground wire and the lug and if the pipe is wet you can get quite a shock.
@stephanc9288
@stephanc9288 Жыл бұрын
@@rickhawkins218 I was maybe 10-12 years old when all this went on so I'm probably leaving out some details. but like I said it was an old house (150~ years old) with old wiring lol not knob and tube old but it was still an old system. The house changed hands a few times after we left and was eventually torn down about 5~ years ago and a new building was constructed.
@carlnelson9162
@carlnelson9162 Жыл бұрын
If that old house was on a well instead of city water, the ground wouldn’t make it to the next house.
@donmclean1220
@donmclean1220 Жыл бұрын
I learned about a loose neutral at a house I once owned. Every time I turned on a toaster the kitchen lights got brighter. I went to an electrical self help blog and a user said it was most likely a loose neutral. In the main panel I found the previous owner/builder had cut the neutral too short, bent the conductor to a 90 degree angle to get it into the lug, then failed to torque it properly. The aluminum wire had heated and corroded over time. I repaired it and the problem went away.
@itspepsi8026
@itspepsi8026 Жыл бұрын
Love the troubleshooting very interesting to watch for me being a HVAC tech. I deal with lots of electrical troubleshooting so very interesting seeing others doing a different job doing other types of electrical troubleshooting.
@bryan.anderson
@bryan.anderson Жыл бұрын
This is amazing. My energy monitor claims to be able to detect this and I've always wondered how. Thanks for this amazing video
@kens.3729
@kens.3729 Жыл бұрын
This is a Job you want to make sure your Head is in the Game at ALL Times. Thanks for doing a Consistently Solid Job. 👍🙏
@blackseabrew
@blackseabrew 11 ай бұрын
I'm an engineer who has worked on industrial projects my whole career. I pays to have electricians who understand wiring in an industrial facility. On my very first project a bottling/canning plant for Ocean Spray, yes I was very green, we had electricians who had only performed residential work wire the plant. Oh my. Hot neutrals all over the place. As in 480VAC hot. They couldn't read the drawings. It was that simple. And the drawings were just fine. I got the job of fixing all of their mistakes on the automation end of things. Really surprised nobody was hurt.
@spelunkerd
@spelunkerd Жыл бұрын
It's always nice to see voltage drop testing done in a completely different context. Ultimately it's the same lesson, don't expect to see much unless you get electrons moving.
@fredsalter1915
@fredsalter1915 Жыл бұрын
I learned something today! Thanks, Bob!
@ShukenFlash
@ShukenFlash Жыл бұрын
For anyone still confused why this happens, normally the neutral is referenced to ground, by being connected to it. So the neutral is the 0 volt point that the +120 and -120 are measured from. If the neutral isn't making a good connection it will be pulled above or below ground by the leg that has more load. The bad connection is basically moving the 0 point in relation to the 2 legs. That's also why the 240 isn't affected, they're still the same relative to one another. That's kind of an oversimplification, but its more or less how it works.
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
This explanation works perfect with a vector diagram of a three phase setup with a floating neutral too.
@jovetj
@jovetj Жыл бұрын
Keep in mind that the neutral being grounded has nothing to do with this circuit. The neutral is the center-tap of the transformer's secondary winding, which splits the 240V of the full winding into two halves. The neutral back to the transformer normally only carries the imbalance of the two 120V legs anyways. Whether it is grounded, or not, changes nothing.
@PRR1954
@PRR1954 Жыл бұрын
I had this lesson early in my sound-guy career. I plugged-in a sweet small PA system on a familiar campus. It sounded extra good! For 15 minutes, and then FWOOMP! Mushroom cloud to the ceiling. I fetched my meter: 160V, where we always had 117V. I asked in the office if they were having power trouble and she said no, but the MrCoffee was taking forever to get hot. That outlet was down below 80V (it was a Line Meter not made to show small volts). Ceiling lights steady, musta been a different circuit. Already I had a glimmer but the campus electrician came right over (the FWOOMP! scared people) and explained in detail. A Neutral wire had come right off (low-bid contract). My 30W PA and the 1500W MrCoffee were splitting the 208V, UN-equally. (It was a 3-phase job so there is a root-3 in there, but whatever.) The smoke was a main filter capacitor the size of a soup can. Over-volt it a while and the guts boil out. What a mess inside!
@1xXCoLeXx1MC
@1xXCoLeXx1MC Жыл бұрын
​@@jovetjThat is incorrect. By not grounding the tap it is not neutral. If not grounded you have 3 hot legs on a single phase tapped transformer. You would still get 120/240 from leg to leg or leg to center. If not grounded though depending on loads your voltage from l1 to ground and l2 to ground will not be 120 it will acually flucuate hope that helps
@jovetj
@jovetj Жыл бұрын
@@1xXCoLeXx1MC But it is neutral...it's in the middle between the two other legs. You're correct, if not grounded it's a "hot" one, but it's still neutral. Same applies to Y 3ɸ.
@pete4082
@pete4082 Жыл бұрын
I recall seeing my first bad neutral at a house we managed -- Randomly, appliances in the house would start smoking without being touched. Voltmeter read fine, until I set it to hold on max, and then saw that it was briefly spiking to ~190. Was a windy day by the ocean, and over time the neutral loosed within the meter, most of the time making decent contact except during gusts. Love seeing your step-by step of diagnosing problems!
@curtw8827
@curtw8827 Жыл бұрын
Once my service totally lost the neutral, that can be very destructive to some of the 120v devices as the voltage can swing very unbalanced line to neutral depending on the running line to neutral devices. Thanks for the video and explanation.
@Brian-L
@Brian-L Жыл бұрын
Had a bad neutral in my six unit townhome building a few years back. I watched a number of videos trying to understand how to locate the fault but never found as clear of an explanation and demo as this one. Thanks Aaron! I called the power company who claimed they came out and checked the pad mount and didn't find a problem (I work from home and *never* saw a utility truck show)... Then called the HOA who called out the electrician. Never learned where the fault was, but I'm guessing it must have been the building main disconnect.
@phildegruy9295
@phildegruy9295 Жыл бұрын
Excellent demonstration on how to find a bad neutral.
@alext9302
@alext9302 Жыл бұрын
As a non-lineman homeowner my only experience with this was years ago when my lights suddenly got real bright when it was windy then returned to normal. Got out my meter next time it happened and I was getting 188 volts on that circuit. Don't remember what the other leg was, but it was quite low. Had to head to work, and didn't know what was causing it so turned off all breakers except my fridge before leaving. When I returned in the evening I saw that my neighbors line (triplex) was brand new. Haven't had that issue since.
@4TDsInOneGame
@4TDsInOneGame Жыл бұрын
This is the type of content that makes your channel the best of this nature on KZbin…
@TheTubejunky
@TheTubejunky Жыл бұрын
With such a small gradient in values it's a wonder this isn't overlooked by many in the field! TY for sharing this!
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
It can definitely be tricky! During a service call for something unrelated (if the customer hasn't indicated a problem). The technician may check volatge and see for example 121V on one side and 123V on the other, which may be perfectly normal. The 121 Volt side may be loaded up, and with no load may be both 123. It could also be a well balanced load with a bad neutral that would show 122v per side with the meter removed. - a quick amp check will tell the story pretty quick!
@TheTubejunky
@TheTubejunky Жыл бұрын
@@Bobsdecline Awesome work! Thanks for the tips! I will certainly use this and share it with others!
@jovetj
@jovetj Жыл бұрын
@@Bobsdecline That's the "fun" part about troubleshooting or problem diagnosis: using sound, critical, logical thinking to build a collection of evidence of symptoms towards (or against) a possible diagnosis. The more information one has, the better, because the more unlikely situations can be discounted.
@dubmob151
@dubmob151 Жыл бұрын
​It might be handy to have some kind of variable load on hand to check the change in voltage as load is incrementally applied, so it can be evaluated without having to turn on a microwave or some other large load that could push the other side to damaging voltages. Hair dryer with a rheostat or something maybe -
@ShukenFlash
@ShukenFlash Жыл бұрын
I've been chasing some odd power issues at my place for a few years. I redid the breaker panel to balance the legs better and that helped a lot, but thinking back, I think one leg was going up when the other went down. Maybe it's been a bad neutral all this time. I'll have to check next time I'm back home. Never knew you could check for a bad neutral like this, but it totally makes sense why that would work.
@grabasandwich
@grabasandwich Жыл бұрын
If your lights are flickering intermittently (or like others have said, some going bright) I'd get that looked at ASAP! Could be a serious fire hazard. Good luck!
@clonkex
@clonkex 4 ай бұрын
As an Australian I still find it bizarre that it's legal to do your own electrical work in some countries. Sure, we have 230v at the wall, but in the US there's still 240v in the meterbox. That's not to say I'm exactly _happy_ that it's illegal to do our own electrical work (it's really not difficult to safely replace an outlet, for instance) but it definitely makes me more confident when I'm buying a house that the wiring hasn't been set up dangerously by someone doing their own work
@jeffreykornspan9053
@jeffreykornspan9053 Жыл бұрын
Nice video Aaron. Sometimes you can use a voltmeter across both sides of a splice connector and see the voltage difference. In your case it might have been anywhere from 1-10 volts. This can also work for a Main breaker or individual SP or DP or Three phase circuit breaker and fuses too. Stay safe!
@dannyl2598
@dannyl2598 2 ай бұрын
Thank you. I took electricity in votech in the 80s and I would not have known how to work that out. Kudos to the electrician for making that call and kudos to you for coming out and fixing it right away.
@ericclothier2543
@ericclothier2543 11 ай бұрын
Fascinating video Aaron! I have ran into a few bad neutrals in my years as a telecom tech, and have actually seen telecom lines toasted due to that imbalance from the bad neutral finding its way onto low voltage wiring (typically toasting some comms equipment in the process!) Love seeing how that is diagnosed and repaired!
@savetheplantet5799
@savetheplantet5799 Жыл бұрын
Well done sir. Your method was in accordance with power distribution troubleshooting standards and You taught it well. Thank you for not teaching it "the easy way"
@scottybrucescott2155
@scottybrucescott2155 Жыл бұрын
I really appreciate your professionalism. If I was 40 years younger, I would follow your path you make the job look interesting and almost fun other than it being work how was the firefighters for 33 years and had great opportunity to work with mini lineman they were great help at fires that involved electrical system. Not sure if you’ve considered this, but you would be an excellent educator, your company should be using you to train all the new lineman. Have a great day and keep up the good work.
@reissner1967
@reissner1967 Жыл бұрын
A long time ago, early 1990's, living with my parents, every so often the lights would go brighter or dimmer. Sometimes they would get so bright the 100 watt incandescent lightbulbs would POP and I would have to use a potato to get it out. JUST KIDDING! I turned the power OFF and took it out safely. Often, our floor model TV's built in circuit breaker would trip. When I took transformer power transmission theory and they taught us what happens when a neutral is loose I realized what was happening. One night it happened and my bedroom light became REALLY BRIGHT. I grabbed my Fluke 73 True RMS multimeter and checked the voltage from neutral to line at my receptacle and I measured 194 VOLTS!!! 😮 That only leaves 46 Vac on the other line! THAT'S a serious imbalance. Looking back on it now I'm amazed that only the odd light burned out. Today's CHEAP electronic crap wouldn't stand up to that kind of abuse. I went to the basement and checked the breaker panel for heat and it was so HOT I couldn't touch it for more than a fraction of a second. I took the cover off and found the main neutral connection was loose. I tightened it up and never had that problem again. That burned into my mind just how dangerous a loose neutral or disconnecting a neutral that is BEING USED can be!
@throttlebottle5906
@throttlebottle5906 Жыл бұрын
when there's a bad neutral, I generally find the CATV coax carrying current back to the street(scary!), especially when you find it's smoking hot, melting and carrying over 15amps of current. always clamp on ammeter test! don't go playing and handling it directly unless your geared up. I've also found current flowing back out city water supply lines via the ground bonding to older metal service lines. some buildings with the neutral completely ripped off and still working seemingly perfect, no signs of problems, stable voltages and nobody had a clue. other than I've started to check the alternate grounding paths by default.
@jakesully5402
@jakesully5402 Жыл бұрын
Thanks Aaron !! I didn’t know it was such a simple trick to diagnose. As an electrician, I’m naturally limited how far back I can get to source for testing, but thanks to your teaching I can now confidently (and quickly) diagnose a bad neutral and decide if it requires the attention of the supply authority. Cheers !!
@TheRotorhound
@TheRotorhound 3 ай бұрын
Flickering lights. Power company had me turn microwave on and sure enough bad neutral. Ran a new neutral and waiting for them to bury all conduit. No more flickering lights. No more APC kicking off. Nice video.
@penguins9645
@penguins9645 Жыл бұрын
I love it - very well explained - clear and logical. I troubleshoot computer programs, and the thought process is identical, as different as the steps may be.
@johnhaller5851
@johnhaller5851 Жыл бұрын
The first house I owned had a bad neutral. Back in the days of incandescent bulbs, when the motor in the dishwasher started, a nearby lamp got brighter. Now, the challenge was getting the utility to make a visit. No one had lived in the house before i bought it, it had been the office for a few model homes. The neutral to water meter seemed OK, as did the neutral inside the meter pedestal, which i could open about an inch without breaking the seal. I called ComEd to report the problem, and of course, they wanted me to call an electrician first. I exaggerated my credentials, and told them i was an electrical engineer, while I had only taken a few Electrical Engineering courses as part of my Computer Engineering degree. This was enough for the person taking the call to dispatch someone. When i got home from work, there were no more lights getting bright as I ran the dishwasher. I know the utility wants to be sure the problem isn't on the customer side before dispatching someone, but that would have cost me real money. I did as much debugging as i could without pulling the meter.
@petermcgrath7045
@petermcgrath7045 Жыл бұрын
Very Interesting video!! I'm surprised you didn't talk about the customer's ground, (driven or water pipe). With a defective service neutral you will get return voltage on the house ground. (If it's the easiest return path) You could also amp probe the customer's ground. Keep the videos coming, very enjoyable!
@goldfishhhification
@goldfishhhification Жыл бұрын
Unreal skillz.... At work we have a smart crew like skills you have. Really cool explanation.
@mben92
@mben92 Жыл бұрын
I work at the local telco, and I probably run about 10-20 calls a year due to a BROKEN neutral line causing our coax service line to melt at our tap or at the ground block, since we bond to the ground. I'll inform the customer to call into the power company right away. I normally can spot the break! Now you have me thinking of what issues a bad neutral can cause for our internet customers. Have you ever seen this issue (melted coax) yourself?
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
Another comment literally just landed at the exact same time as yours, describing exactly this! Next time I come across it, I will definitely document it. It can be very dangerous and difficult to detect and understand what exactly is happening. But yeah... That coax or telephone drop (next) carrier can definitely attempt to BECOME the neutral 😧
@grabasandwich
@grabasandwich Жыл бұрын
That was probably me! Unlike most techs, it really piqued my interest, so I wanted to figure out why (Yay inquiring minds! I think I have undiagnosed ADHD or autism...and I'm not poking fun at those who have it!)
@jovetj
@jovetj Жыл бұрын
@@grabasandwich I find this video explains things very well: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gnvZqpWVjNqdkMk Just remember that "the ground" has really nothing to do with this problem, because the voltages are not high enough to actually push much current through the earth. But anything grounded can try to become a path for the neutral back to the transformer.
@grabasandwich
@grabasandwich Жыл бұрын
@@jovetj yeah, I've seen that one! I wish I was good at making videos like these guys!
@jebcommon2332
@jebcommon2332 Жыл бұрын
Great and very thorough work as always. Don't mind those in the comment section critiquing you for being thorough.
@nmccw3245
@nmccw3245 Жыл бұрын
Good troubleshooting lesson Aaron. 👍🏻
@robbehr8806
@robbehr8806 Ай бұрын
Thanks!
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Ай бұрын
Much appreciated 👊🤝
@seattlecarpenter
@seattlecarpenter Жыл бұрын
Not that I would be fixing this issue myself, but it's great to know how a bad connection could cause a voltage spike. Thanks for the information.
@chrismak5710
@chrismak5710 Жыл бұрын
OMG . I just had to troubleshoot this same problem last weekend. Your video and explanation were awesome. Wish i could have watched it prior. Now i know to really figure it out. Thanks
@ShlongOmatic
@ShlongOmatic 8 ай бұрын
Not a lineman, just a guy who likes watching your videos. I've seen this happen a few times. I was told bad neutral and the voltage swings were really crazy. 40v on one side and 200v on the other. Some people's stuff was getting really hot and smoking.
@oscare.quiros6349
@oscare.quiros6349 4 ай бұрын
This is the clue I was looking for. Now, I know where to check. That voltage imbalance was driving us crazy.
@usfredfam
@usfredfam Жыл бұрын
Wow, this was super helpful. I’ve never seen this explained so clearly. Thanks!
@77bubba00
@77bubba00 Жыл бұрын
Excellent troubleshooting instruction! I'm in the middle of doing something similar, but with a 24 vdc gas turbine engine air bleed control system. Done a lot of work with wiring on aircraft and jet engine test facilities over the past 43 years. It can be quite challenging, and often frustrating, but for some reason I still love doing it! LOL!
@Poorschedriver
@Poorschedriver Жыл бұрын
Great video Aaron, it's not often we get to see you troubleshooting like this
@robertroy8803
@robertroy8803 Жыл бұрын
Really good description of the problem and diagnosis! Did you have to cut power to the home in order to change the neutral clamp? (I assume yes)
@rupe53
@rupe53 Жыл бұрын
If he did a disconnect on the neutral to clean and install a new crimp, the voltage would have gone nuts / imbalanced while he was working. Always do repairs without a load.
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
Yessir 🙌 Thanks guys! And great answer as always Rupert!
@AlanTheBeast100
@AlanTheBeast100 Жыл бұрын
Doh! I was about to say: "Sure: but put a conductor strap between the supply and service sides of the N during the repair." Not sure how feasible this is or if it's agains the co. rules.
@rupe53
@rupe53 Жыл бұрын
@@AlanTheBeast100 Job only takes a minute or two. Just kill the power.
@dgriff-can
@dgriff-can 7 ай бұрын
Great video. Years ago I lived in the basement suite of a house where the neutral was damaged by corrosion and it blew out all of my electronics. I never understood until now how a bad neutral fried my stuff but if the actual line voltage changes it would definitely cook everything. All of the incandescent lights in the suite were glowing blood red (low voltage) and there was smoke coming out of my AV gear. Sucked. Some of it was repaired (not replaced) by the utility but was never quite right ever again.
@evanprovisor6004
@evanprovisor6004 Жыл бұрын
A great example of Kirchhoff’s law. I learned about it the hard way when the neutral in my generator inlet box became disconnected. Fried a few LED lights when I switched on an unbalanced load.
@laosbboie
@laosbboie Жыл бұрын
Great Work!! -Master Electrician (inside wireman) from Wisconsin
@npary
@npary Жыл бұрын
Just had first hand experience with this as a consumer. On the 23rd a squirrel managed to chew through the neutral coming into my house. I happened to be next to the breaker box when the light show began and flipped the main. The electrician saw the problem and I contacted the power company to get it fixed. According to the electrician with a fully cut neutral I had close to 250v on some of my outlets, fried my stove, fridge, and several surge protectors. Made for a fun christmas.
@FantomMisfit
@FantomMisfit Жыл бұрын
I suppose you received the gift of new appliances 😂
@joetripp123
@joetripp123 11 ай бұрын
same thing happened to us, a tree root caused a break in an underground neutral. We fried all kinds of stuff new years eve. HVAC var fan and board was the most expensive at $1k. Stove blew the 120v parts so no oven controls, but range tops still worked. Also lost some expensive GFI breakers for some reason. Total cost was equal to our deductible, so we didn't even bother reporting it to insurance.
@comingtofull-ageinchrist6736
@comingtofull-ageinchrist6736 Жыл бұрын
Great troubleshooting! I’ve only ever had to deal with partial voltage losses, which can take some time to chase down. Sometimes it’s hard to call the cause when it’s intermittent voltage loss. I’ve checked a panel in a mobile home to make sure it was good at the service because they intermittently has flickering lights but only after their down syndrome son knocked a wall loose. According to them they hadn’t had the light problem prior to that but the issue they seemed to have was an outlet on the kitchen counter serving a microwave. I changed out some old old receptacles that I thought could have been the problem and the problem seemed fixed but returned and ended up being the lateral line feed from the source pedestal.
@adamdnewman
@adamdnewman Жыл бұрын
This situation is all to common in old services in the USA.
@portmccarthy
@portmccarthy Жыл бұрын
We use a few tools made specifically for open neutrals. Arnett Super Beast to test the service voltage while load is applied without risking the customer equipment. We also use the Bierer ST800 to locate the bad connection location. I recommend looking up the ST-800 video. It's one of the best tools I've used in 20 years as a lineman.
@vince6829
@vince6829 5 ай бұрын
Nice explanation. Thanks for sharing your knowledge
@weavercattleco
@weavercattleco 11 ай бұрын
If you lose your neutral all together then things go from bad to worse real quick. I've seen around 220Vac on one leg before which means everything not being protected behind a surge protector gets destroyed instantly 🤢 It all depends on how the 120Vac legs are loaded because with the Neutral (transformer center-tap) disconnected the circuit becomes a voltage-divider hence the voltage across each leg is based solely on the resistive loads. Unless the loads on each 120Vac legs are balance then you'll have more voltage on one 120Vac leg compared to the other. I've seen linemen remove the service meter and plug a device into the meter base to simulate an unbalanced load to find the problem so there is no need to bother the customer with turning on appliances. Just wondering if it was re-crimped with "anti-oxidant joint compound" to prevent the cable from oxidizing again due to heat which is why that connection was failing to begin with. It's not rocket science 😊 Checkout "Open Neutral" on Dave Gordon's channel which perfectly illustrates this problem 😉 By the way, this is exactly how to check for bad wire or connections on a 12-24Vdc system using the "LoadPro" probe. Open voltage won't show the problem until you put a load across it then the voltage drop becomes obvious 🤠
@Randall-mt7jk
@Randall-mt7jk 11 ай бұрын
That happened to me and my neighbor in 2005, power company transformer lost its neutral connection to the distribution neutral ,both legs went wild ! Power company bought us new televisions and microwaves .
@jonasahlstrom9169
@jonasahlstrom9169 Жыл бұрын
thanks Aaron for very interesting video. 👍Something new was learned there. Had similar faults in the underground cable network recently in incoming to a property
@ziggybammurphy1645
@ziggybammurphy1645 Жыл бұрын
We have a tool called The SuperBeast that finds open neutrals….it takes the place of the meter and puts a load on the service….….It’s a troubleman’s best friend and it narrows down if its a customer problem or a utility probem….
@davidwestervelt6050
@davidwestervelt6050 Жыл бұрын
Very interesting. Learn something new today. Electricity is a funny little monster so cute but has a bite. Thanks for explaining how to troubleshoot the issue.
@JaimeRestrepo61
@JaimeRestrepo61 Жыл бұрын
I really enjoy everything you post. So much to learn.
@jolyonwelsh9834
@jolyonwelsh9834 Ай бұрын
Another thing I have seen linemen do to check for a bad connection is they use load heaters. They are basically hair dryers in a ball with jumper cables coming out of them. They pull out the meter and connect them to the line side meter terminals. Then they measure the voltage drop across each crimp connection. If the connection is bad there will be a significant voltage reading on the vom. If the connection is good there will be a reading of 0 or near 0 volts.
@D.Hozzie
@D.Hozzie Жыл бұрын
Just an excellent post and explanation of this. Thank you and be safe.
@anthonyelectric6045
@anthonyelectric6045 Жыл бұрын
Nice explanation on that trouble shoot. Just looking at things really can’t show much. Test test etc. stay safe brother 👍
@virt1one
@virt1one Жыл бұрын
I'd be worried about placing a large enough load on it to raise voltage to 150 volts, that sounds like enough to risk damage to devices or appliances in the house. (maybe enough to trip some sensitive surge suppressors?) And there are probably a few items here and there that could be damaged by applying too little voltage as well.
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
I answered this in more depth on another thread... But basically it's already been going on for days and the damage has been done. Voltage has to be checked to confirm. As you as you see those extreme voltages. Pull the meter! Don't use those voltages to help trouble shoot. Voltage must then be re-checked before leaving...
@alan.macrae
@alan.macrae Жыл бұрын
Thanks Aaron, another great video.
@jesusismful
@jesusismful 4 ай бұрын
Had a floating neutral a while back and ended up calling the powerco. They pulled the meter and the inside the box was all burnt up and corroded. They also replaced the neutral crimp back at the pole. Powerco ended up paying for a new mast and whatnot. Never hurts to ask, even if you think it's your fault. Saved me 3 grand.
@koolhub6137
@koolhub6137 4 ай бұрын
Even in Industrial, and Commerical Refrigeration, and residential you have to pay attention on how electrical circuits are wired. Walkin coolers and freezers are 230/ 30 amp load, and refrigeration techs guys, have to check line voltages on the primary side, and low voltages on the secondary side, but yes when doing a voltage reading in a service panel 120/240 single phase service panel, from primary to netural 120, from any primary, to primary 240. Loose connections can cause a unbalnce load.
@skunnysss
@skunnysss Жыл бұрын
Great video. Very informative. Thanks Bob 😊
@patrickmorris9710
@patrickmorris9710 11 ай бұрын
Saw that on a service call out in the country. All the connections at the at service loop were fine but the dropped neutral was at the transformer. Called power company and it did not take long for them to fix it.
@ritaloy8338
@ritaloy8338 Жыл бұрын
Reminds me when my neighbors and I lost one of the hot leads off the transformer. It was happening during the daytime when most people were not home. Because we were the only ones home, we thought it was due to the old wiring of the house.
@benssolarandbattery
@benssolarandbattery Жыл бұрын
We have copper water mains here... about once a year I'll put an amp clamp on the water main to make sure I haven’t lost a neutral, but also to make sure one of my neighbors hasn't either. The neutral is the most important wire!
@louisharris6398
@louisharris6398 Жыл бұрын
Great Video Aaron hope you had a good and quiet New Year's Eve. Great to see another video
@Lakeman3211
@Lakeman3211 11 ай бұрын
I received a call out to a residence that recently had a new service pole and pole light from the supplier…flickering occasionally…went thru the typical checks, loose something here or there, finally got suspicious and went to the service disconnect…incoming lines were 150 something and 80 something as I recall…wowzer! quick call to the service center and had them out shortly after…the pole well off the road had the transformer mounted and it was their baby from there…they had to cut trees, all sorts of bs to get to it….they never indicated what exactly was the culprit..I suspect it was from the transformer to the triplex..as they needed to head back for wire…
@cdnaudioguy
@cdnaudioguy Жыл бұрын
You should be able to measure that ~4-volt difference across the bad connection on the neutral. That's an easy way to confirm a poor connection.
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
Definitely another easy way to check!
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
I should add, still requires the same off balance load.
@rupe53
@rupe53 Жыл бұрын
@@Bobsdecline what, you don't carry one of those load testers that plugs into the meter socket? Hmmm, maybe when Milwaukee makes one?
@Monkeh616
@Monkeh616 Жыл бұрын
You can also just check for that resistance with the load isolated. Especially if you have a meter with a proper high current continuity range, which will let you read down into the low tens of milliohms. Not sure how readily available those are in NA.
@alexkitner5356
@alexkitner5356 Жыл бұрын
Wish you worked for my provider. Had the same issue intermittently lights would get super bright for a moment then dim. Guy came out around lunchtime and said bad neutral no biggie which I knew was the usual suspect. Guy went to the pole and found what he visually suspected was a bad crimp. Changed it out and assumed it was good, didnt even say anything to us after, he just punched the meter back in and split. Problems came back quickly and it was getting worse so we called again and they sent the guy back out, now just after dinner. Finally put a meter on it and had 142 on one side and 109 on the other with power on. Decided it had to be at the service connection on the house, but now it was dark so he couldnt use a ladder without calling someone else because of the SOPs. Told us he wouldnt call cause the company doesnt like to pay a second guy OT. Say he can leave it or he can back across our lawn and use the bucket, but we have to sign a release for any damages that did to our lawn. Im a firefighter, and the thought of 142 volts with an older home and some things ive found from past DIwhy owners- and what i havent found and wasnt going to have it left that way. I did protest some and point out that he could have fixed it the first time and therefore asking for a second person or not asking us to sign a waiver wasnt unreasonable considering it was a safety issue and it was his second attempt. His response was to threaten to cut all power and come back tomorrow as a 'screw you', which he may have done had I not pointed out that we were standing in front of my ring doorbell and that as bad as all that would already look, and as much as I despise people who use it, there's law about cutting power when there's a disabled child that he would be violating. Amazing how fast he reacted to the realization he had admitted on video that he had made an assumption, not tested anything before or after and then found that he left an unsafe condition which he refused to ask for a second tech or not drive a line truck across my lawn to fix then topped it with a threat to cut my power and have no heat or water if I didnt let him tear up my yard to save himself getting chewed out by his super for needing the second guy... A second guy was rolling up 5 minutes after he called dispatch... Have had 2 TVs die and the power supply caps on the main board on a fridge burn out soon after...but im sure its pure coincidence...
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
The situation with sop's is somewhat reasonable except for one major problem! (As you pointed out). He was already there earlier and messed up! Him/the company should have been rolling out the red carpet at that point!! Also imo, a bad neutral on company side, should have been fixed regardless of o.t costs.
@alexkitner5356
@alexkitner5356 Жыл бұрын
@@Bobsdecline agreed on all counts... but I think he knew if he had to call then he couldn't avoid telling his super that he screwed up. If he pressured us into the waiver then he could fix the second issue and nobody would know that he screwed up.
@nedmacallen
@nedmacallen Жыл бұрын
I love a good diagnosis walk through. Hell yeah!!
@frederickbowman4494
@frederickbowman4494 Жыл бұрын
GREAT VIDEO!
@johnmoloney5296
@johnmoloney5296 Жыл бұрын
Happy new year to you and yours
@BL4CKICE1992
@BL4CKICE1992 Жыл бұрын
Like these raw videos!
@razy7609
@razy7609 Жыл бұрын
Your videos have been a great source of knowledge for me, the way you stress safety is so important. Side note… how often do you find yourself installing service drops
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
I mostly do trouble work and customer service calls now but I'd say 4 or 5 a month.
@1976Datsun
@1976Datsun Жыл бұрын
Would a DIY homeowner see this voltage difference across the legs of their dryer or stove outlet? Or at the fuse panel. The same as you showed at the meter? Most power companies frown on people removing their meters, of course.
@chris76-01
@chris76-01 Жыл бұрын
Yes, and if you remove a "smart" meter, the power company will be immediately notified.
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
You can check safely at an electrical outlet if the user is competent in doing so. From that test point, the problem could be anywhere from the outlet itself, to the breaker/panel and right out onto our system.
@jovetj
@jovetj Жыл бұрын
This is one of those uncommon (but not rare) situations that homeowners need to be aware of.
@Mark117-zu5wp
@Mark117-zu5wp 7 ай бұрын
I agree with thephantom1492. Test each hot leg to ground. If you get an imbalance put jumpers in the channel and read across the neutral connection in the channel. If that connection is bad you will read the imbalance voltage. If it reads zero do the same thing at the weatherhead. If it reads zero there now you have to go to the pole. Where ever you read voltage across the neutral connection that is your bad connection. If there is an inline splice half way between the house and the pole which is not a normal electrical splice that also could be where the problem is. Most of the time this kind of problem will cause dim and bright lights. I've seen it high enough on the high side to do damage to electronic equipment.
@JimCopeland-x4j
@JimCopeland-x4j Жыл бұрын
Your videos are always good. This was great! Thank You Very Helpful!!
@frollard
@frollard Жыл бұрын
Very informative! Thanks for sharing as always.
@johnwalker890
@johnwalker890 Жыл бұрын
Good job Aaron.
@HadHellkinsasmysnsince1989
@HadHellkinsasmysnsince1989 8 ай бұрын
We use the Super Beast to test our line side neutral(HJ ARNETT SUPER BEAST-D HJA-469-SD SERVICE CONDUCTOR TESTER). You have to disconnect the line side neutral from the meter base socket and hook up the beast. If the beast runs at normal fast speed its usually a sign its good. If it doesnt run at all or very slow the neutral is most likely bad and the tell tale sign of unbalanced load is usually a good indicator as well.
@realvanman1
@realvanman1 Жыл бұрын
When you apply load across one line and neutral, the voltage across the other line and neutral absolutely does go up since the impedance of the neutral conductor back to the transformer is normally much greater than the impedance of the transformer and it’s supply. The further you are from the transformer, the greater the effect.
@MetaphysicalEngineer
@MetaphysicalEngineer Жыл бұрын
I wonder if it would be possible to have a test apparatus that plugs into the meter socket that allows applying a loads without energizing the customer equipment, with voltage and current measurement points. Take the guesswork out and prevent a bad case like this one from doing more damage.
@andrewm1236
@andrewm1236 Жыл бұрын
The st800 or beast puts artificial load on the conductors.
@AlanTheBeast100
@AlanTheBeast100 Жыл бұрын
When the current is really low like in this case, it probably doesn't take much difference to cause a noticeable voltage difference. If the house had been drawing 30A + 32A the voltage difference might have been in the noise. All due to the winding resistance at the Xformer. I like trouble shooting videos. A few months ago one of my UPS' signalled a ground fault. Took me many hours to find it. (Was in a ceiling light box at the other end of the house that also fed the bedroom end of the house where my office is). I figure that open ground has been there for many years. Only when I moved the UPS did I see the GF light. Hard to find, but easy fix.
@culbyj3665
@culbyj3665 Жыл бұрын
This was an excellent video That could even speak to balancing Your Box at a house when doing a remodel...Love these technical Vids. On the flip Side I've asked before Can u do More on 34kv, Identifying POTS , Insulators are typically not a good way of knowing anymore based on size because they over insulate regardless of voltage. . Also Curious If you Have anything On trailering Poles out to jobsites and what types Of trailers used. We Do a lot Of Projects for Excelon South Of You and power upgrades asking us For Class 2 55 and 60 Poles. As You know I'm telecom and we work with one of there local companies in and outside of Philadelphia. Starting to question The trailers we are allowed to use with some 10 plus feet of pole hanging off the end of our 45 foot trailer. Couldn't find anything IN Our Department of transportation saying it shouldn't be allowed to have that much hanging Off the Back But yeah Your standards north of the border would be a great Video.. Its getting sketchy... Any questions please ask
@johnsona6428
@johnsona6428 Жыл бұрын
Do you guys perfer to have electricans always look on the other side first? I am fairly certain I have a bad netural but dont know if I should call an electrician first or the power company.
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
We definitely prefer an electrician checks it out first...but that can also be costly for you. Some cases the power company will not come out until and electrician has checked things out first. It's about 50/50 that the problem is on our side vs customer side. If you have an older home/panel... It might be worth having an electric loan come by anyhow to check things over.
@denniscunningham7021
@denniscunningham7021 Жыл бұрын
Power company is free. Call them first.
@BariumCobaltNitrog3n
@BariumCobaltNitrog3n Жыл бұрын
Divide and conquer is a good tool for a lot of troubleshooting issues. A bad neutral can go undetected for a while, depending on the load. Do you separate power and lighting in a circuit in Canada? No lights and receptacles mixing on a breaker?
@Shorby99EK
@Shorby99EK Жыл бұрын
This happen to me 4 years ago. Took 4 calls to the electric company. I told them I was seeing 136 volts on one side and 108 volts on the other. They changed the meter and never tightened the screw on the neutral. Melted the screw and the aluminum wire. Amazing people like I had come out never checked it.
@jeffroepke4052
@jeffroepke4052 4 ай бұрын
Does your utility use a load tester that plugs into the meter socket? The tester puts a ~20A load selectively on each side of the service while displaying the voltage on both side. I had this exact problem on our service. An unbalanced 20A load would pull the neutral up about 20 volts. The culprit was a corroded connection on the buried service entrance.
@grabasandwich
@grabasandwich Жыл бұрын
I'm only 3 min in, so I'm not sure if you touch on this (if not, maybe you can make another video sometime) but as a cable guy, I've seen a couple times where the end of the coax service drop was melted. One was at the ground block in the home, another was at the tap. As a contractor, they didn't train us on this, I only figured it out by looking around online. While I was changing the connector, I bumped it against the cast iron plumbing stack and it sparked a bit. I carefully used pliers to touch it again to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Anyway, one of those calls had a history of repair calls going back to 2012 for "bad connectors" 🙄 It was only after I read some horror stories online about that I realized how bad this condition is. One story mentioned how a fire started in a bedroom outlet upstairs after the tech cut the coax. I guess it was acting as the return path to the transformer up to that point. I have pics and video of those calls. Maybe I'll make post a video of them. Look forward to any replies on the subject!
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
Oh man! Yes great topic. The coax or telephone drop can absolutely attempt to pick up the slack for the neutral return! I've seen it many times, scary stuff. Next time I come across it, I'll definitely document what happened. It's very interesting and often difficult to realise what's happening.
@mben92
@mben92 Жыл бұрын
I recently read that article too. I was going to show it to the boss, maybe a change in policy in how we handle broken neutrals going forward needs to be made. Perhaps staying on the site until the power company shows up...or even calling them ourselves. I have a trove of pictures of it as well! It really through me for a loop the first time I saw it.
@Bobsdecline
@Bobsdecline Жыл бұрын
Our local comms guys are instructed to phone our emergency line when they come across this. They don't necessarily have to wait on site, but sometimes do and at very least leave their contact info. We treat this situations as urgent and respond immediately providing there are no other more serious emergency calls.
@grabasandwich
@grabasandwich Жыл бұрын
@@Bobsdecline what's interesting is that I think the coax plant is more susceptible. I did 15 years on the telco side and don't recall ever seeing it then. I assume it's because telco lightning arrestors only short to ground when they're blown, so I think the twisted pairs inside are electrically isolated all the way back to the central office. But with coax, I think the connector (and shielding wire) are common back to the tap at the nearest pole. I believe this is why they've always told us we MUST ensure proper grounding!
@grabasandwich
@grabasandwich Жыл бұрын
@@mben92 thanks for the reply. Do you guys use amp clamps? The small company I work for has never told us to test for current on a drop, but I'm really inclined to pick one up. When I was doing telco, they made us buy the big yellow FVDs. Maybe Aaron can touch on why the FVD didn't go red when I touched it to the coax. I think I checked it while it was disconnected from the ground block, but I assume it's cuz the neutral is return path and not actually "hot?"
@ScottDLR
@ScottDLR 11 ай бұрын
Very interesting - thanks!
@jeffmcewan1
@jeffmcewan1 Жыл бұрын
What a great video. Everyone that does some work on electric in their own home should know this -- and I did not.
@goldensilver793
@goldensilver793 Жыл бұрын
I hate neutral problems... Thanks for the troubleshooting vid... I check up to the meter and then call the line guys...learn something on all your videos... Thanks...
@allenshepard7992
@allenshepard7992 9 ай бұрын
Yes, go for a microwave NOT a dryer, oven or stove element as they are all 240V load or "balanced loads. As Bob said "Unbalanced or phase to neutral loads." Ungrounded to grounded conductor. Ground current can also go up. Fun fact - when the neutral is breaks on Triplex, the #6 grounding wire tries to carry the load and will burn vinyl siding.
@childlikefaith7257
@childlikefaith7257 5 ай бұрын
Well I have been trying to find my bad neutral for over a month now, I appreciate you, is there a such thing as a neutral that only acts up every now and again? I check L-1 and L-2 every day at the meter box almost every day it's 122 on both legs I can turn on the space heater it goes 120 on one leg 124 on the other but once in a while it will be 132 on one leg 114 or close on the other.
@GaryFeltman
@GaryFeltman 19 күн бұрын
I was watching the tv and noticed that the picture would change by growing or shrinking a little. Called the power company and they found the neutral cable in the ground was bad. The section replaced was a waxy substance inside the cable that was an open circuit.
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