Tactical Consideration: Pushing Fire

[@watchthe1369]

My take away from this would be to never use anything but a straight stream from the outside of a building and always aim at the roof so you arent blasting thru the building onto a search team. That using an open stream to blast the smoke an heat right out of that bedroom fire was slick and a nice stunt, but how many times are you going to know the floorplan? A solid stream off the cieling that cools a room with fire ,already thru the windows without interupting flow path, seems like an awesome way to locally snuff the fire without affecting anyone in the building negatively.

[@lynskeyti9940]

Just as we use fog to hydraulically vent from the inside it works in any direction even into a closed room.... the room will pressurize and blow back if the windows are open or gone it will vent the room

[@JohnnyPeters]

It can also push fire if the stream doesn't hit all the fire at once and entrains air because the stream is whipped. Or if it's a master stream. I've been on the wrong side of a master stream that pressurized a compartment on fire.

[@dennislegear4226]

My thoughts on a good conversation to have. Pushing fire can occur from certain water application methods using fire streams, there are three understood contributing potential mechanisms at work, occlusion of one or more vent/or exits of established flow path (this can occur interior or exterior, moving energy to the new path of least resistance) air entertainment of the fire stream (displacement), and finally inadequate gas contraction during water application into a involved space (inadequate rapid cooling). Hand-line fire streams have this potential, to push “fire” gas from rich to lean leading to burning, but one must understand this can occur from both interior and exterior positions. Proper knowledge and understanding of handline fire streams, reach, water mapping, air entertainment potentials and their ability to seal spaces is the discussion we need to be having. This gives the Nozzles the proper knowledge and understanding to use their handline stream best. Anyone that has taken a class of mine in the handline fire stream section has noted this is gone over in detail, including burns that occurred from interior pushing of fire onto search teams. Do not let anyone say different this is both an interior and exterior phenomena. A handline fog nozzle in a fog pattern is bail limited (negative change in conditions driven, low surface cooling), reach limited (localized gas contraction, but little to none at distance) and high air entrainment with movement of the line to map an area 15k+ CFM is possible. These attributes make pulsing and open and shutting the line more necessary because sealing and over pressurizing the advance is more possible creating a negative pressure behind the nozzle team. In addition since water is distributed in such a way (many small droplets) massive surface cooling is not readily occurring more steam is produced when the fog stream hits hot surfaces, this can out pace contraction that is occurring leading back to the pulsing of the stream to prevent this. Solid & Straight Stream handline is a bail non limiting binary application method, typical run in the wide open position without movement somewhere around 1000 cfm is occurring and with movement around 6000 cfm of air entrainment. This occurs with reach, so gas contraction can happen both locally and at a distance as the stream is played about. In addition in the 150 to 185 gpm, 40 to 60psi nozzle pressure range massive surface cooling takes place, so additional steam production that can overwhelm the gas contraction is less likely. Finally without movement it will not seal the exit of a flow path, making it ideal for exterior application, but also with movement inside it has the potential to adequately seal the advance. This allows for pushing the products of combustion and extinguishment away from the nozzle team, but also creates a condition less likely to over pressurize the advance because only 6000cfm is readily possible, and this is done while maintaining reach. The attributes talked about above make the high gpm, low air entrainment handline fire stream in the 85feet/sec range more forgiving to operate on the fire ground and provides a focus on functionality over efficacy. It can and will when properly used readily contract gas, cool hot and pre-treat uninvolved surfaces (safer), entrain a sweet spot of air (not too much not too little with movement), interact with flames and achieve base fire extinguishment. It does this in a simultaneous manner with the most constants and the least variable to account for when operating the handline. This making the high gpm, low reaction force straight or solid stream handline in a flow and move application methodology ideal to utilize in a task saturated and time compressed emergent condition that is the modern fuel load. Addition of lots variable in a quest for efficacy in suppression utilizing fog pattern (low or high gpm) as it relates to total water use is a Don Quixote Esk ethos based in the facts it’s possible not within oath of the mission of saving Life (1st) and Property on the fire ground.

[@Daniel-jt4vz]

Dennis LeGear whats your thoughts on the new nozzles coming out like the fixed gallonage combo nozzle by elkhart 160gpm @50psi

[@DeeKay617]

@John Cocca Thank you for your service sir , and for the record I agree with you 100% !!!

[@DeeKay617]

@@JB91710 Ok so I thought that you almost had valid points , ALMOST . Then you call out the FDNY as a whole ? Are you OK ? Have you ever been on scene with the FDNY ? I'm sure they are far superior than your 1960's and 70's tactics. As we all know things evolve including fire fighting. So lets leave your tactics where they belong , in the past .

[@DeeKay617]

@@JB91710 Im not spending my time going back and forth with you , honestly you let me kno who I was dealing with when you were talking trash about the FDNY and how they operate. No point at arguing with an idiot because people looking at this won't be able to tell who is who. Have a great day guy 👍

[@DeeKay617]

@@JB91710 So your another keyboard tough guy huh ? I bet you would never say that to my face . You sound like the kind of bitch that gets picked on their entire life to start to call people names that you dont even kno . What are you from the mid west or something. Id be mad at the world too

[@afzalgujjar7197]

Great teaching tools thanks useful information

[@shanehowerton9382]

Great teaching tool thank you.

[@raycolon477]

Great video, thanks. Stay safe

[@jerryhughes5380]

Applying plain, untreated water through the window only addresses the physics of the fire and does little or nothing to address the chemistry of the fire. Fires are more than just physics (heat). To address the chemistry of the fire (Fuels) you must add chemistry to your water. Adding surfactant to fire streams bonds water molecules to hydrocarbons in smoke and fire gases making them too wet to burn (oxidize). Lets move out of the caveman days UL and begin to address both the chemistry and the physics of the fire by researching the impact that Class A concentrate has on the extinguishment of fire. Jerry Hughes, Battalion 1 (ret) Chicago FD.

[@John-xo3gk]

Liked and subbed 👊

[@tafadzwachikweye9461]

Appreciated

[@25mfd]

good surround and drown tactic

[@DEE_SHORE]

👍👍

[@anthonyrios2210]

Right to fight, left for life, nozzle pattern controls...

[@walterlewis1782]

Sir, I respectfully disagree considering this was an old phrase that doesn't apply correctly as we have learned. The left for life is dangerous- as shown in the video, it disturbs the layering, distributes the heat, gases, flame and smoke and entrains more air in toward the fire past the nozzle firefighter. In the day of no scba use, this was beneficial to draw fresh air to move the attack forward but as research is demonstrating, this blanket quote isn't accurate or necessary with the advent of improved scba and firefighting ensemble.

[@Muddybagclean]

Jesus Loves You All

[@thurairajah1428]

Pp

[@DeeKay617]

I call B.S. water most definitely pushes fire . Idc how you word it with gas , oxygen . But when you are inside a structure on fire with a line being used from outside it most certainly will push the fire on to you and your brothers.

[@riseagan]

No it doesn't.

[@riseagan]

With all do respect of course, opinion (which you provided) does not outweigh empirical evidence. I would agree that having opposing hose streams could be potentially dangerous, but the idea of pushing fire is just not true.

[@DeeKay617]

@@riseagan Have you ever been 1st into a burning structure fire ? And these studies were done by scientists not actual firefighters. I can tell you 1st hand it most definitely pushes fire. Have you been part of any fire ground rescues ?

[@DeeKay617]

@@riseagan We can agree to disagree , but my whole point of the comment is that interior fire fighting is the best method of fighting structure fires. Period . The whole reason I commented to begin with , was the 1st truck on scene started the 1st line from outside and I can't disagree enough with that strategic decision . Even if you show up on scene with people telling you its clear inside , you still have to check and be sure. That is where my point stands.

[@riseagan]

@@DeeKay617 Thats fine. And my point is that we should base tactics off of what is proven to be accurate. He just explained what happens in the occurrence of appearing to push fire. Interior vs exterior is also of course based on circumstance. For example, the science has shown that quick hits from the exterior prior to interior operations we shown to create a more survivable space for everyone. Which is why I like the idea of transitional attacks. Be safe brother.