First Church OKC Disaffiliation Attempts Stymied

[@miniprepper8284]

I know a young, up and coming pastor who remained aligned with the UMC in South Texas. He was moved to an urban, quasi mega church with a beautiful campus... Huge staff,.gorgeous grounds. He and that church are show pieces for the UMC. Right before he went over there, their website showed they were a few million dollars in operating debt so that is what he inherited. But now, there is no more transparency on the website. That church has NOT tightened its belt so it is pretty apparent to me that the conference is propping it up with funds that it garners from the "leftovers". It's not sustainable though.

[@lorraineculp1504]

Thank you, Jeffrey, for providing a voice for First Church of OKC and other congregations as they try to disaffiliate from the UMC. It is disheartening to see all the hurdles these congregations must navigate just because they are a large, successful outreach in their communities. The unmitigated greed of the conference is a black eye on Christianity and Wesleyan doctrine. My heart breaks as the deadline approaches and conservative congregations are trapped by new rules and delays. I pray that all prayer groups in the disaffiliated churches will raise these congregations in prayer. My small rural church voted to *not* disaffiliate. Our sister church voted unanimously YES and welcomed about 40 people from my previous congregation into their small building. We still have our wonderful Pastor Billy Towery and his family. Our church community is now implementing great opportunities we didn't previously have. We are blessed with the growth and love and fellowship within our church. I pray this congregation and others will be successful in their plans going forward.

[@cynditrammel7562]

I'm so grateful that we severed our ties with the UMC leadership.

[@kennethsanders1694]

It has become all about the value of assets the UMC can keep for future use. I foresee the sell off of properties to prop up the UM bureaucracy as long as possible. Despicable.

[@Stacyaj10]

Thank you so much for this interview, Jeff! So helpful to discuss these serious issues that are burdening serious followers of Jesus.

[@johndavis2661]

Great info. Our church was just denied dissafillation. We are planning our next step now

[@TexasGalOnTheHill]

We have a meeting tonight with the DS and I am asking for prayers. This interview has helped so much with questions that should be asked. Prayers for your church.

[@Huldah4cs]

It would appear that the UMC bishops of this conference have shown their true hand and have taken the velvet gloves off. They have completely given in to the root of all evil…the love of money. My church is on the pathway of disaffiliating in the next few months. At our annual conference the powers that be went so far as to lock the doors at the stroke of the hour before taking a vote on a group of non-qualified clergy. Many conservative pastors were not allowed to come into the room while people were taking their seats. Thank you Jeff for all of these videos that shed Light on the undermining of traditional Wesleyan Methodism. Our God reigns.

[@jimelliott6200]

Excellent interview.sounds similar to the 5th Avenue and Struthers situations.

[@sandraimboden6660]

What they are doing in the dark you are bringing to the light.

[@GregHutto-n9e]

I have a request for a future video. Disaffiliation is only about property and a physical address. What would it look like for 75% of a church population like First Church to simply walk away from the UMC property and the UMC denomination? First, how could they establish a new meeting place and ministry? In direct contrast, how could the UMC maintain the facility with such a small remaining congregation? How could the annual conference manage this situation if another 30-50% of their membership declines? It seems like whoever manages to “win” and keep the property(ies) ends up with a heavy financial burden - should either side really want to be burdened with that ongoing expense? Is the time of expensive church buildings a thing of the past that we are holding on to too tightly?

[@pauldunham2367]

For those churches who narrowly miss the 75%, the exact situation you describe has happened in many places. The majority leaves and starts a new church, and the remnant keeps the facility.

[@davewil3]

With properties in valuable real estate locations, the UMC may be happy to close the church and sell the property.

[@elmcoachingandconsulting1295]

I was interested to watch this. I came to it having the understanding that the congregation is suing the OK Conference for "breach of contract" and that the conference's position that the state had no standing to take a role in what they claim is an ecclesiastical matter. What's ironic is that the Rio Texas Conference is suing a couple dozen congregations (the only annual conference in the UMC to initiate legislation against congregations to my knowledge) for "breach of contract" on the part of the congregations, namely that the congregations do not believe they should pay the amount that the conference says, but rather want to negotiate (pension liability calculation, counting certain assets or pension reserves against liability, etc. The conference has refused to do so - or even discuss it. So the congregations retained an attorney who (The following analysis is my own interpretation and nobody else's.) I believe the congregation's will argue that no "contract" exists. First, it's a stretch to call the BOD a "contract." Second, the conference has violated the BOD (appointing a "self-avowed, practicing homosexual" to a congregation - the woman is married to another woman). Third, the Conference's "Discerning Pathways" disaffiliation process was developed by the Conference Trustees and conference delegates never had a chance to vote on it. The conference evidenced awareness of this when valiantly attempting to get local church officials to sign a disaffiliation agreement that contained the financial figure following their church conference vote (none of these congregations signed said document). And there is precedent in Texas courts of determining not to become involved in ecclesiastical disputes. So it appears to me that the congregations in Texas on the one hand and the OK Conf in the First OKC case on the other, are making a very similar argument: the court has no role to play here. It will be interesting how it turns out there as well as here.

[@davewil3]

Viability study is a smoke screen. If the church leaves the UMC, it is not their concern whether church is viable.

[@deej7928]

Viability study is a tool that is now being misused ( similar to how trust clause is being used) to confiscate church property&assets.

[@Revolver1701]

Well done presentation of the church and its mission and the differences with the institution. My opinion is that if you want to disaffiliate you should set up in a storefront and start over. If you want to leave, then leave.

[@plainspokenpod]

Yeah the problem with that immediate response is that it leaves the assets of previous faithful generations of people who hate them and what they stood for. I and others believe we owe a great debt to those who built what we currently enjoy, such that we should not lightly abandon those gifts. Only after every other avenue has been exhausted should we abandon the gifts of those who have entrusted us with them for God's glory.

[@Revolver1701]

@@plainspokenpod thank you for your answer but what about present members of your church who do not agree with your plan to disaffiliate?

[@eileenthrift8259]

It is incredible to see UMC leadership want their cake and eat it, too. They want to change the BOD to suit themselves, but they don't want conservatives to be able to disaffiliate when it is conservatives blocking the changes. Conservatives will leave irregardless of the heavy-handed tactics put in place as obstacles to disaffiliation. How do they sleep at night?

[@hunker1982]

Jeff, great job continuing to shed light in dark places. However, I must take issue with the conservatives' continued assumption of the good intentions of progressive bureaucrats. While we should extend that benefit in individual cases, the assumption should cease when the pattern of unfair dealing is so clear. Your "steel manning" of their potential arguments make a stronger case than they dare to utter. Those who believe in the righteousness of their cause and of their actions operate with transparency and are forthright. The intentions of those who seek the cover of darkness are not for good. After all this time, why must we still guess the intentions and motives of the other side?---Duncan Williams (I detest anonymous keyboard names)

[@plvsoundman5148]

FMC OK City .. make sure that the Judge is not involved with another UMC in OK. That happened in Western NC Conf. Judge that ruled was a UMC member.

[@plainspokenpod]

I remember reading that. Is anything happening there, or is it now a done deal? I was thinking that NCLL was going to take it to an appeals court or something...

[@joer5627]

The way things are going with the UMC, the few remaining higher ups could meet in a booth at an IHOP. Bishops and Board of Trustees nationwide should be shame riddled based upon their actions. It’s all about the money.

[@barabbas57]

‘Gaslighting’ - I keep hearing that Term. But what do I know?

[@brownro214]

Disaffiliation stymied? Not a surprise at all.

[@kelzworldkz9347]

He said “one of the oldest pipe organ not THE oldest.

[@chrischristopher905]

Isn't the process supposed to be started by the Church Council not the pastor?

[@jwaldoshs]

We pray that the Conference will not succeed where Timothy McVeigh failed.

[@jabeavers]

Oldest pipe organ in the "nation"??? Or, did he mean "state"?

[@plainspokenpod]

He surely meant state

[@greysuit17]

Why cling to denominations? It’s not biblical.