Flammable Refrigerant Update

Jason Obrzut, Don Gillis, and Dr. Chuck Allgood give a flammable refrigerant update at the 2023 HVACR Training Symposium. They talk about the latest news regarding regulatory updates and the transition to low-GWP A2L refrigerants.
The AIM Act mandates the phasedown of high-GWP HFCs federally (state regulations may vary a little bit, but all of them will have an HFC phasedown); in the end, production will be decreased by 85%, meaning that there is not a total refrigerant phaseout. Recovery and reclamation will be crucial.
R-32, an A2L refrigerant, has been used in window and package units, and R-1234yf has also been used industrially and in automobiles. Most A2Ls going to market will include those refrigerants and refrigerant blends. Installation and design standards will be tailored to the A2L refrigerants. A2Ls are nowhere near flammable as A3s, including propane.
ASHRAE Standard 34 establishes a lettering and numbering system based on toxicity (A or B) and flammability (1, 2L, 2, and 3). Non-toxic refrigerants have the letter A, and toxic ones have the letter B. Non-flammable refrigerants under test conditions receive the number 1, mildly flammable receive 2L, moderately flammable receive 2, and highly flammable refrigerants receive 3.
We have largely been working with A1 refrigerants, like R-22 and R-410A. A2Ls are non-toxic but propagate a small flame under test conditions; A2Ls are significantly less flammable than A3s, like hydrocarbons, which is evident in Dr. Chuck’s flask test. Flammability also depends on properties like the minimum ignition energy, the heat of combustion, and the burning velocity. A2Ls take a lot more energy to ignite than A3s, and their heat of combustion and burning velocity values are quite low by comparison. The industry is moving to A2Ls to minimize risk (as opposed to A3s). Systems for A3 refrigerants typically have smaller charges than other systems with lower flammability to minimize risk.
We will start seeing new tanks with special safety features, including ones with spring-loaded pressure relief valves that can open and close automatically if the pressure gets too high. You’ll likely see left-handed threads on some tanks, and adapters may become available for them. Recovery tanks will also have a red stripe, and you can decommission tanks by puncturing them (not with a ruptured disc). Refrigerant tanks will come in neutral colors and have shrink wrap to prevent counterfeit refrigerant from entering circulation, and the refrigerant name will be labeled on the tank.
Some of the best (albeit not required) practices for A1s will be required for A2Ls. These include purging the system with nitrogen, evacuation, and leak/pressure testing. Otherwise, the refrigerants have very similar pressures to R-410A, and working on systems with A2L systems will be similar to working on R-410A systems.
You can email questions to Don at [e-mail]. You may also check out Opteon’s website at www.opteon.com/en, AHRI’s Safe Refrigerant Transition Task Force at www.ahrinet.org/advocacy/safe-refrigerant-transition-task-force, and educational resources on ESCO Group’s HVACR Learning Network at hvacr.elearn.network/.
Buy your virtual tickets or learn more about the HVACR Training Symposium at hvacrschool.com/symposium.
Read all the tech tips, take the quizzes, and find our handy calculators at www.hvacrschool.com/.

[@joseestrada9458]

Thank you for this video

[@monteglover4133]

I’m the old guy in the room one of the major requirements for refrigerant was, it had to be non-flammable under normal conditions

[@user-ir2zv1xx5q]

New tools, new requirements for transportation and storage, perhaps new certification needs. And I'll pay for that, my client will pay. Equipment will cost like a rocket.

[@jenko701]

It’s a scam guys

[@evelynmerchant3420]

I want r-22 to come back. It is more efficient and and the damn ozone will be fine.

[@_n8787]

The guys that’ll never have to work on the units saying “come on guys it’s not so bad”.

[@Stuart68505]

Thanks there is so much to learn this is helpful to realize the need for more education.

[@gwinters6847]

Greetings friend Bryan from Michigan.. yes I am still hanging in there for a few more months. So many changes in our industry related to environment can deter unsure, new comers as service. These short informative videos help remove any doubt that we service and installers can meet the new standards for safety and handling. Thank you and your willingness to make sure the industry is held to the highest ethics and knowledge for all of us. Kalos is my referral for all my Florida friends in your area.. Ft. Meyers, to the east coast, Miami, Daytona. Never stop learning. 👍

[@CrazyPeiceOfPie]

The amount of refrigerants I work with vs a refrigerator or a car (small closed circuits that are worked on much less) is vastly different. This is huge, every tech has accidentally dumped a line before but if it was explosive that's a whole different story. Also I would like to see how flammable these oils are.

[@samuelg3586]

Nuclear refrigerant is coming next

[@MrLandphill]

as far as the paint wearing off goes, use a sharpie and write the blend on the top where it can't rub off.

[@aredditor4272]

Dude should have been a sportscaster

[@MinnesotaHvAc]

So nobody has addressed the fact that the scroll hard lock and don’t release pressure until energized. I can’t vent the compressor and the line set at the same time. So how can I determine the condenser is purged when the nitro will vent the evaporation circuit and leave the refrigerant in the condenser?

[@kurtgarlo863]

Great class. On tank colors. Our warehouse guy hits each tank on a pallet with correct color spray paint, so it’s still grab a jug at a glance.

[@Bobbyg4315]

Talk about taking a step backward!?... I think it's good to keep flamables to staying warm and cooking (just saying,been out of sevice for a bit). I get the hydrocarbon thing. And new to me is CO2 refrigeration. And that sounds good, safe, not hazzard and use in chillers. To me it just seems to open 13:52 door for problems. Yes, propane for rv bee. Around for long time. Thanks, interesting video

[@keithcorbin4474]

Change guage and hose manifold

[@josejulian5116]

Changes are driven by patents running out, don’t drink the kool aid…. Should be trying to go back down to low pressures with micro channel coils

[@f1reguy587]

With the GWP thing, we were discussing likelyhood of ammonia and CO2 coming into domestic appliances like high walls, even R290. R32 is just 410A without the fire retardent in it as we were told by the trainer, but i own an A2L reclaim pump, i havnt seen an A3 one since its not been in our scope of work, but one thing that scares me is we all need to read what we are working with and know enough about it, we dont want to be mixing these things together in reclaim cylinders, we would need to end up having multiple reclaim cylinders for the A1,A2 & A2L and of course the A3 as a minimum, ideally we would have a reclaim for each Refrigerant, which is fine for a larger company, what is the solution for the smaller ones…

[@bairfamilyfarm1336]

I'd hate to see ammonia come into residential areas. I worked for a farm store out of high school and they filled anhydrous tanks for fertilizer, that stuff is POTENT. Even as much as a little puff of liquid was enough to either eat your skin or knock you out COLD. It took me a few months just to get used to the smell of the stuff from minor vapor leaks.

[@EarlHayward]

I thought the critical point of CO2 was too low to make it practical without a cascading system… But, I work on specialized data center equipment, so not very knowledgeable on the subject…

[@andyash5675]

It's all very well telling people who aren't listening that they should ask themselves if they are licenced. When you can't get a sensible refrigerant, you just use Propane (and that's that). My advice would be to assume Propane, and if you have reason to think otherwise, maybe you can. From an industry perspective, I would say there should be an unlicensed but safe pathway. That has certainly been closed in the UK, and it has inevitable consequences. I can buy propane/butane mix in cans marked "R134a substitute". I'm not even sure what it is beyond "petroleum product", but it works and by all accounts it looks like it's quite popular.

[@zesulant]

When you bring the propane tank home. Do you set up the tank and grill in the living room?

[@majid8636]

Hi how are can it possible to install a capillary tube or orifice in place of the expansion valve, and does the cooling efficiency decrease?

[@Wrecked3]

Yeah just braze in the proper compression fitting... And then recharge the system via superheat

[@eddiekester4125]

I've chosen to label it kinda pregnant - reversing valve changeouts are already a big enough pain in the ass -

[@johnnyprotalk3352]

GOOD STUFF

[@berniellarenas419]

Good morning sir I have media split type air cond. Indor unit working outside unit not working the display error is ( M E ) what is the problem thank you and have a nice day Sir…

[@robertjameson1959]

It means you should call a professional.

[@vertihvost7675]

What’s the model number of your outside unit?

[@Tah_Dot]

The error is ME? Idk sounds like a user error to me 😎. You'd need to state the brand, M/N.

[@user-ir2zv1xx5q]

You need new installation. It will cost you $30k.

[@whitesheatingairappliancer7101]

😂😂😂

[@f.villanueva]

👍👍👍

[@jtburn7862]

I am a potential consumer looking to get a split AC/Heat pump (Mitsubishi or Daikin). Should I wait for the new A2L to be available in the US? If I go with existing will servicing 410A in 10 years plus be available and/or very expensive? Will there be better performance with A2L?

[@Efferheim]

A bit late, but r32 is more efficient than r410a.

[@Holler_Rat]

When is this transition going to happen? As in, when is the switch to R32 and R454b going to happen for AC and heat pumps? (Edited)

[@user-ir2zv1xx5q]

Step by step. You see, they already created supply chain problems. Now we need to change our vacuum pumps and gauges( very expensive part of our tools). I guess we need a new certification.

[@brianporter447]

Its already happening. In cali you cant evac. Discharge out side.

[@StolerNow]

I'm sorry but small appliances are already exploding here in the U.S. and they want to add explosive refrigerants to big units. I recently had a unit blow its full charge in a high school classroom full of kids because the wiring from the factory was left loose and the vibration from the water source heat pump compressor wore through the wire and tried to weld itself to the copper line which blew a hole in it. The kids would be gone if this continues to be allowed. 20 plus lives are more important than the risk this would allow.

[@boby115]

Will we need additional certification for our EPA license ? ( I realize we need to be educated about the new refrigerants but do we need some type of extra certification card that is mandated ?).

[@realSamAndrew]

At the present time, no. Subject to change, but the current EPA rules require you to keep up with new rules.

[@boby115]

@@realSamAndrew 👍

[@drummersnare6276]

Yes, I already got my certification for it, it’s epa HFO/HC refrigerants

[@boby115]

@@drummersnare6276 , from what I understand you got a certification for your training which is great👍 but that is not a required license which would have a number indication . Please correct me if I’m wrong (you have a certification , not a required license registered with the EPA , like the 608 universal or 609 Auto & Truck ???).

[@1martinontherocks]

What about price? I hope is cheaper than hfcs

[@JamesPettinato]

Refrigerant companies see the conversion tp r290 as a threat to their future sales, they are reacting by raising the refrigerant prices.

[@98grand5point9]

Just make all hvac propane. Put the condenser and evaporator outside. Use a antifreeze loop to transfer to the air handler. Put the electrical controls in a sealed compartment. Problem solved. Propane is an exceptional refrigerant. Cheap and very efficient.

[@boby115]

98, you are correct, it would be like the old Arkla gas air conditioners that had ammonia for refrigerant and glycol for the chiller.I guess I’m revealing my age . I’m sure it won’t happen because your idea makes too much sense and would be cost efficient. Anyone that reads this, let me know in the comments below, if you’ve ever worked on a gas air conditioner (?).

[@Holler_Rat]

How would Big Chemical make money? It's always about the Dollar.

[@98grand5point9]

@@boby115 I remember them too. Not very successful around here. Very few people knew how to work on them. I never did have a call on one other than to clean the condenser.

[@Wrecked3]

So... You want to add another component thus increasing the cost? The biggest issue would be designing the proper heat exchanger... Although if it is sealed.. We could lower the pressures and drop the temp really really low to make up for the inefficiencies in transfer.

[@boby115]

@@Wrecked3 , chiller technology has been around since 1922, invented by Willis Carrier. Can we make the technology better ? (Absolutely). Yes, things are getting more expensive and technology more complex . The difference in cost, i’m not sure anyone could predict at this time.

[@thecentralavenuegunslinger7861]

The industry is weeding out the hacks it’s kinda funny

[@user-su5ft8lc9q]

Gid built this planet and all others, so man cannot destroy it. Only God can.

[@brianporter447]

What happens when all natural gas is banned. I have about 30 pieces of equipment on my facility that are r290.

[@Wrecked3]

Love r290

[@garza7676]

Great video . This answered a lot of questions I had . It’s funny how people freak out about something new . Like when people said that 4G was going to melt your brain 🧠 lol

[@serenity6988]

FEDERAL REGULATION TO MAKE MORE MONEY!!! sADNESS on our planet!!!

[@tairdudeusa7981]

The industry needs to hurry up with the 32 or 454. I am not selling 410A systems to my customers. I will put a compressor in an R22 system first. The industry is hurting itself.

[@threeftr3349]

Thank you, appreciate it. Homeowner here trying to stay informed. know one in my area is telling homeowners any of this info. I need a new unit soon.

[@joeschneider67]

Government it's all about money 😂. DuPont ''patent'' it's already expired.

[@davidgertz1317]

Leave it to govertard regulations to make sense of creating a dangerous situation to the public justified by green technology. Green as in $$$

[@maubunky1]

Let's Go Brandon! More exploding appliances coming to your home soon.

[@Freonleon]

Too bad it’s been like this for a few years now this isn’t a political thing goof ball

[@barronweir123]

Smart electric meters remotely catch the house on fire then blow up your ac system when you have been targeted for termination.

[@MrGlen6911]

Yeah but we need to get rid of stoves you can’t make this stuff up lol

[@Elo-hv3fw]

Any flammable substance immediately turns into an explosive once it picks up oxygen. The mixture ratio is 14.7 :1 This does not seem to be a problem for your house because you have insurance, don't you ?

[@vertihvost7675]

Stop scaring people. There are homeowners here. Also statistics doesn’t lie.

[@thebluelunarmonkey]

Gas stove, gas furnace, and gas dryer have entered the chat. :)

[@user-ir2zv1xx5q]

Like fridge in our houses. It can blow.

[@blackishpariah]

​@@vertihvost7675the videos from India don't lie

[@Freonleon]

You drive cars with 20 gallons of gas that can explode, dummy

[@keithcorbin4474]

With new refrigerant turn upper

[@bartglow]

Great customers over time squeezed for more money due to the supply of x gas, the service industry squeezed to buy more tools to adapt, and manufactures demand more money to cover the cost of change, all to supposedly reduce the world temperature how much?

[@garza7676]

If the EPA wants to drawn down 410A and eventually stop importing it then the government should buy back every unit that’s using 410a .

[@threeftr3349]

Exactly! Being a customer, I need to replace a 23 yr old R22 unit, but refuse to spend thousands for a unit that has the phase out/draw down R410A. I asked that's what is currently being sold.

[@garza7676]

@@threeftr3349 a local big box hvac company here in Las Vegas is offering huge discounts on all there new units installs . Hmm I wonder why ? They know what’s coming . I do hvac , go head and get the 410A system ! . It’s more energy efficient then R-22 . You’ll still get about 15 more years and I don’t see changes happening soon .

[@garza7676]

@@threeftr3349 how big is your system now ? Tonnage ?

[@Honestandtruth]

All these Changing of Refrigerants and Electric cars is Hoping to Restore And Reduce OZONE LAYERS DEPLETION.... Or just about Money 💰🤑💰❓❓

[@edwardgaddis8333]

So neat cooling systems will become bombs.

[@RacingKingTrader-nc5ie]

So, GWP because of CO2 being released into the atmosphere. Yet, where did the CO2 come from? The atmosphere? If it escapes a sealed system from a chemical compound called R410a, doesn't it go back into the atmosphere? Trees, through aspiration, convert CO2 into oxygen. However, everywhere one turns they see the trees are being cut down to build crappy, albeit, lucrative construction projects. I say plant more trees and keep R410a. Of course that might affect the profitability of Chemours and the politicians involved. Beware of loud and fast talking people who are quick to ridicule dissent. Eg: "What advice do you have for those who are new to using refrigerants?" Answer, " Haw, haw; that's a whole other topic, start by getting your license." In other words, "Piss Off !" It is corruption at its finest. The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

[@cameronprice931]

We don’t agree with this !

[@cameronprice931]

Hopefully we can adapt.

[@joffrecueva5662]

This is some bull...

[@codykruies3414]

1st

[@DEW409]

Amazing how this industry goes along with this crap when everyone knows it is dangerous and unnecessary. No balls?

[@Efferheim]

No choice. Runaway lawmakers created a runaway government that arbitrarily makes laws about things they have no information about outside of the lobbyists. Lobbyists even write legislation that is dictionary sized and is voted on without being able to be read beforehand. We had a constitutional republic. We now have a constitutional-corporate republic.