Flat 3 diminished - what it is and why I don't substitute it

Join me to explore the beautiful sound of the flat 3 diminished chord and how it works in chord progressions. I analyze examples in jazz standards to showcase why I prefer using the flat 3 diminished over chord substitutions in certain cases.
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[@SomeDumUsrName]

I can hear his voice…. “C’m on man. Don’t anybody ever use b3 dim any more.” TY for spending so much time with him and soaking up so much of his way of looking at things and continuing to pass it on.

[@dananthony6258]

I’m a guitar player but this helps me see thing from a different angle. I love watching the blues note while you explain this.

[@vortex8988]

Love the random side notes on Barry!

[@mer1red]

There do are some spots in this sheet that raise a few doubts. Scores are often the result of a transcription or an attempt to arrange it in a personal way, so they should always be approached by some suspicion. The only solution to learn a song the right way is to go back to the original publication by the composer, if you can find it. But, speaking in general, if you want to add some tension when moving to a ii in major, say Am in G, then G/B or G7/B or E7#9 is perfectly justifiable. Using a diminished approach can be an alternative, but that is only a matter of taste, none of them is wrong in the sense that it kills the harmony. The fundamental harmonic flow of the song remains the same.

[@paulr494]

I used to have think diminished chords were just passing chords or a voice leading “trick” so didn’t pay them much attention….. now I think of them as “my precious” 😂

[@MarlonRodriguezREALTOR]

very very very good teaching!!!!! Thank you

[@JazzSkills]

You are welcome! I'm glad it was helpful.

[@MarkEisenman]

Well done YES, the place where the bIIIo is an absolute must is when the melody would be the natural 9th on what could be the VI7 chord going to iiminor chord. Example: Bar 2 of The Song is You Bar 4 Body and Soul where after the iiim7- NO way would a VI7 chord play well there, because the melody would be the 9th... and VI7 chords that resolve to a MINOR chord down a 5th should always be b9, but the melody does not allow that so biiidim is the best choice. Bar 9 of Alone Together.. Bar 2 of Witchcraft. in the key of F, No way a D7 or Dminor sounds as good there as Abdim. There are thousands of examples Someday My Prince Will Come (bars 9-10) Another way of saying it... If a chord is needed to resolve to a iimin from iiimim, and the melody is the Major 7th of the key or the 2nd of the key, use the biiidim chord.

[@scruffyleon7383]

An eye opener for me. You made my Saturday. Thanks Shan.

[@guidemeChrist]

The diminished diminished scale is an underappreciated scale of chords. You can do all the movement and borrowing on it that you can do on the 4 other ones that everyone talks about

[@ajaxmountain]

What's the diminished diminished scale? And what are the 4 other ones?

[@danielsogunle4666]

Beautiful and Easy to learn Jazz piano lesson👍

[@Csharpflat5]

Great show thanks

[@daysebruna1863]

Always teaching people valuable jazz skills!

[@frederic1000001]

Impressive to see how well you know your songs.

[@AsherBKNY]

Thank you!

[@doce7606]

Empowering view into a valuable niche... I only really saw bIIIdim to IIm7 in Bird as a VI sub (eg cool blues) [but I guess that's because I know f__k-all standards..] whereas every gospel tune and many standards (eg i got rhythm) typically support the bIIIdim to IIIm7 and I'd guess the various hip possibilities there (eg #11) can be explained in the same way .. very liberating lesson thanks !

[@joeallen9420]

Great stuff, thank you.

[@JazzSkills]

My pleasure!

[@musicmangm7572]

I really appreciate you sharing knowledge

[@pichan8841]

Super Good!

[@freedomajp]

Great explanations.

[@BrendaBoykin-qz5dj]

Thank you,Shan. Good one.⭐🌹⭐

[@maxfarbermusic]

Hi Shan. I see the sharp 1 diminished moving to the 2 chord functioning as a secondary dominant but I'm trying to understand more about why the flat 3 diminished moving to the 2 chord works. Is it just a voice leading thing? Thanks for your time.

[@dealieno]

love your work, thank you

[@Gottenhimfella]

A couple of other examples that spring to mind: Someday my Prince will come, The Song is You ... but I've always thought of the 3b dim in a 3b dim - ii - V - I progression as essentially a tritone sub for the vi. I'm guessing that's a newbie misapprehension - can some kind soul tell me why that's a bad way to analyse it?

[@CatioChic3catsJazz]

We jazzskillers are about due for a new tune taught in depth with a smart tune ……….. how bout this one? 😂🎉😊

[@kaptnkirk2740]

Beautiful playing. So b3-diminished here is used as a transition and NOT as a dominant-function, right?

[@gmitter-sl3qq]

In the key of G, a scale choice that would include the B over the Bb dim chord could be: B harmonic minor (with optional additional b7: A), or, equivalently, the A dominant scale with additional b9 (Bb), the latter of which I think can be found in some Barry Harris „scale outline“ examples on the Internet, and allows for easy application of Barry Harris half step rules on dominant scales.

[@streamofconsciousness5826]

Positive Comment #30

[@rahulraj_music]

❤

[@deegee6046]

b flat dim. is A7flat nine then goes to Am one way of looking at it,or am I incorrect?

[@SomeDumUsrName]

That is a way to see it BUT…. I don’t think it aids in learning about diminished motion. Could you also see the A7b9 as “borrowing?”