Flesh and Blood TCG: Let's Talk about Starter Decks, Enticing New Players to Play, and Retention

[@Vvulfkrit]

First Strike Aurora Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/m52mXpdtebaHZsksi=AEgWtPBV4XLjjMzH First Strike Feature Match Aurora VS Terra: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jafEXqJ_baxmjqMsi=icJn0X5OeFJxswLu Price of Flesh and Blood and other TCGs: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a3O1fn5qbbeEr80si=xC7K8NXScl24g3n6

[@harken_mengsk]

I agree with you that the cost of competitive fab decks is holding it back. I often hear the excuse that since there is such a high prize pool from LSS (perhaps a video idea of comparing prizes of prize cards + cash of various tcgs) it warrants the decks being expensive as a sort of buy in. Problem with that is most players will never interact or have a chance at that prize pool but still want to play decks that aren't at a large disadvantage locally/casually. Fables need to just be banned from competitive play or reprinted at a lower rarity as their pull rates, especially the generic and earlier set ones, are a problem. Generic staples are probably fab's biggest problem hurting casuals looking to take their first steps into more competitive lists. The generic staple bloat has just kept increasing and it is a huge barrier into competitive fab like you mentioned. IMO generic majestics/legendaries needed to be either a higher pullrate to offset their greatly increased demand from players from multiple classes or needed to be very situational and definitely not staples. There also needs to be more classes that are very competitive but also cheap (mech and wizard are I think the closest) but generic staples again hinder that from happening. I don't think the game's price has really changed that much over the years meaning LSS sadly doesn't necessarily see it as a large problem (maybe starting to change now?). Last year's world's top 8 I recorded via fabrary at the time as being an average of $890 per deck. Top 8 average from recent pro tour Amsterdam was around $1115. I remember years before also being quite expensive. LSS has reprinted some generic legendaries but haven't touched generic majestics like command and conquer (history pack doesn't count since its pull rate is low and demand for the product is low) which seem to be the bulk of costs now. Not having big IP collectors to offset the value in a box with higher rarity versions probably isn't helping. Maybe it is the large majestic pool per set with only a fraction being pulled per box or even case. Long comment but just know that lots of people following fab casually share your views and want things to change for the better. Fab had lots of unfair criticism early on which made some in the community overly defensive on some issues.

[@Swiitchd]

I'm down with what you're saying. I also agree Fables could just be banned, they're so niche and then it leads to casual people like this guy where they see it and go through the "I know I don't need it but because someone else COULD have it, Its unfair." Most people wont even use their best cards in locals if you're just playing the game for fun, they want you to have fun. If you're upset they use it in a tournament, then thats not fair to them as they're choosing to invest more time and money into this hobby than a casual. @VV theory, I dont enjoy the way you brought this across personally. You're claiming to be casual, yet want to be competitive, also that you're already invested into another TCG and thats why you initially didnt want to invest more into FAB, which is completely understandable. I dont like how its making FAB the problem though when I think you dont want to invest into a TCG that's not your primary. Its hard to give you feedback when you provide an opinion, then say "we're touchy" or a "sensitive topic" as any argument I make will now be looked at with your predefined view of "touchy" or "sensitive".

[@Vvulfkrit]

​@@Swiitchd Geeze, you really have to be so careful how you approach this community because of how upset some people get... my favorite part is the projection, suggesting that I am somehow the one who is upset just for pointing out an apparent weakness I see in this game. I literally tried to be so careful with what I said and you still act as touchy and sensitive as you suggested and as I predicted... First of all, what is your definition of a casual? Mine is someone who enjoys to play the game and compete at a local level, but doesn't want to spend too much time or money on it or go to any major tournaments. Is a casual player not allowed to use a deck that has recently won a tournament? You have to compete at some level to play any TCG or you are just a collector. The question is how serious are you going to take the game and the competition? I only want to be competitive at a local level, which again is my definition of casual (and most peoples right?). If you aren't even competitive at Locals and you just like to show up with an armory deck to lose every game what's the point of playing the game? I got back in to TCG's in 2023 and hadn't played anything in like 3-4 years (because of personal life issues), when I got back into TCG's my eyes were set on 3 different games: OP, FaB, and Lorcana. Once I looked into them I initially thought I was going to get into FaB and bought a box of Dusk Till Dawn, but then I came across the price tag associated with getting in to that game and I said absolutely not. Lorcana was a mess on release so the natural and obvious decision was OP. I'm not going to lie to you or anyone on this channel, I think OP:TCG is the superior game, it's why I stuck with it after trying it out. The game was so good that I decided to become a content creator because I could talk about it all day every day. However, I still liked FaB and I never stopped collecting each card that I could afford on the side for the decks I wanted to build and play locally. I think you have seriously misunderstood me, I am a TCG enthusiast through and through and when I made this channel it was to show my appreciation and support for the game and of course give my insight on it (from a Casual but Experienced Players lens). That doesn't mean I wont have criticisms of it as well though. Also, did you really have to straw man me like that? "I know I don't need it but because someone else COULD have it, Its unfair." I never said this. I don't care that someone else has an Arknight Shard lol or C&C's or fill in the blank, I'm just asking that the cards be more affordable for the average casual players like myself. Also.. I don't know how your Locals is, but what you said about Locals is not true at all compared to mine, people are in there with top tier decks every single week with Cold Foil everything and even some alternate art cards (Thousands of dollars poured into these decks and they look great).

[@Xoulrath_]

I've always hated the argument that because you only play at your "local" game store, that you aren't a serious competitor, or that you won't run into money decks. Uh, I don't know where you guys are playing, but I've NEVER run into anything but the BEST meta decks at my "locals." Competition is competition. The cards are the same, as is the price. Why would I ever put myself at a disadvantage by not having the best cards? FAB, more than ANY other game that I've played, NEEDS those money cards to compete. I can go meta adjacent or straight up anti-meta in Modern and Pioneer in Magic. In SOME Standards, you can as well. Pauper even has plenty of diversity of deck builds that affords you competitive deckbuilding flexibility. Lorcana has been very good at this as well, and it's especially impressive given the small card pool. I haven't played OP long enough to say one way or the other. But FAB? Yeah, you better have the money pieces or your deck is just inferior. The game was designed very POORLY in this regard. Sorry, but the truth hurts.

[@Zarfin]

@@Xoulrath_ In my LGS they even bring the most expensive cards to UPF games :D

[@Chris3s]

finally someone with a balanced take. I always see people defend TCGs prices, because it is "needed" for the games to survive. I think all playable cards should be easy to get. It is completely fine there to be alternative art cards with limited quantity, signatures or whatever else drives the value for collectors.

[@Matt-yp7io]

I couldn't agree more, I don't get why more people don't talk about this and how so many people can afford to play this game? For me a slight noob to tcgs I can't imagine spending more than 100 ever on accumulating a deck.

[@SlaughtingIdiots]

that in the tcg space is like a "budget" deck therefore REALLY low pricepoint. its a collective space so cards do actually have some value which you arent simply losing, they can be re-selled kinda like real estate so its not spending but investing in a sense. if you dont like the game anymore sell the cards and you maybe lost 50-100 bucks depending on how old your cards became or how well you sell them

[@j1nchuika]

I really liked the way you argument the issue for new players. My friend is also the epitome of casual player and the other day he just bought his first "expensive" card being a $40 legendary (it's his only legendary). He loves the game, but anything you ask above $40 is a hard no for him

[@savioria]

Hey there, just came across this channel when researching for Boltyn decks. New player here as well. I finally decided to try out the game after just following the tournaments and playing on TTS. I just got Boltyn's Armory Deck last week and I agree with most of your video. I found that majestic rarity staples are one of the biggest issues with this games when it's related to pricing. Expensive equipment is also a problem, but in a much less extent since a lot of the equipment in the armory decks are still very competitive and fulfill their purpose. In my opinion the secondary market is just that, "secondary" to an audience that needs to first get in touch with the retail product first. Right now what we see is the result of years of push to create a competitive scene while maintaing value for collectors who want to play the investment game. I believe there's room for both but the mindset of keeping collectables a high price might prove to be a challenge when it's related to important game pieces. I think LSS biggest challenge is a matter of "mindset". The game focuses a lot on competitions and the high stake decks that, while are a great showpiece, do not traslate into a value proposition unless you're already deeply invested into the game. When I go to my local game store and I see a ratio of 20:1 mtg players/fab players also because of that. I understand mtg has a lot more time in the market but in event attendance I only see the more hardcore oriented players playing fab, and they usually play mtg as well. FAB needs a casual mode just like MTG's Commander. Not just blitz decks. It needs a way to funnel new players into playing the game and bulding a collection without the pressure of a meta and expensive staples right from the beginning. Overall, great video and I hope this opinion is shared among LSS' leadership to an extent where they can take it easy with the competitive scenario and invest more in the new player experience(PVE? Anyone? xD) Sorry for the long post and the grammar as English is not my first language (I'm playing my first irl game next week, wish me luck haha)

[@Fergit_]

They need to do like FFTCG and release a box of staples to get everyone up to the same level, even if you need to use a different border or back.

[@ultimaterare3146]

Good job on the video.

[@Steamedhams578]

Alot of points I agree with I started the game and spent around 200$ on a Dash deck that obviously wasnt optimal, I think u can get a top list for around 450$ now but it was more at the time. Managed to win maybe 30% of my games but it became clear I was on a different field to the established players at the armory. It led me to making budget versions of other heroes instead of going all in on Dash. I still havent spent more than 250$ on a deck and I still use alot of proxies as the people at my armory are pretty cool with it. For the casual player that doesnt get to do this I can see them just falling out of the game pretty easily and not becoming a regular participant which definitely isn't great for the game long term. From what I gather the reason why they won't reprint anything over 10$ in value in these armory decks or why they dont bother reprinting staples to make their prices lower than 50$ is cos LSS keep a very close eye on how much they are growing and the number of new players are coming in. So far they are happy with the numbers so they would rather keep the established players happy with the value of their collections rather than pushing for new players aggressively by reprinting valuable staples. I think at some point they will decide it will be worth it to start reprinting these but for the time being they are afraid of growing too large too fast and outputting too much product too fast. They are still a very new company so they really have only just began to expand the product line more. 2 years ago there were no armory decks or any of these new products and they only made 3 sets a year. The new player does suffer from this but there are promising signs imo.

[@Vvulfkrit]

"So far they are happy with the numbers so they would rather keep the established players happy with the value of their collections rather than pushing for new players aggressively by reprinting valuable staples." This was one of the scariest thing I've ever read in regards to a TCG, but I think you are correct. Thank you for this comment very interesting point of view.

[@Steamedhams578]

@@Vvulfkrit Yea I'm pretty sure this is how this their mindset currently. I've listened to the Creator James White in interviews and he's said they're careful with how much their growing and it's clear he doesnt think the expensive cards are a major issue. The devs have said Part the Mistveil was their most attended prereleases yet so in their eyes they dont need to change anything except slowly increase their production for now.

[@Vvulfkrit]

@@Steamedhams578 Ya I would have been surprised if Part the Mistveil was not their biggest release yet, they opened the game up to an entire new country lol and not just any country, a country known for it's TCG prowess (smart move). I see what you are saying though, we'll have to see how things go in the future, because I don't think LSS realizes how many people are not playing their incredible game because of how expensive some of these cards are.

[@spetz911]

As a new player: you spend $50 on an armory deck for a hero you don't really want, you pay 10$ for an entry ticket to a "casual" local armory event, and you get completely wiped of the planet surface by players with a full play set of legendaries and majestics.

[@barby007]

Sadly I got into this game right as Tales of Aria was being released & I was out by Everfest. Way too expensive. The fact that in equipment alone you spend about $400 if not more, was mind blowing. There are so many other fantastic games when a full high rarity competitive deck will cost least than $500. The game went from being played at about 5 local game stores to not played at all. You can only find 1 LGS near me with a few products left. The game died & it was stricky because of prices. People went to other games. LSS needs to re analyze their game.

[@ibonbon92]

This take has been on my mind whenever I try to get new players into the game.

[@qq.quanxi]

I'm a new player. Immediately started buying singles start of July, by the time PT is coming the value of the cards I bought already went down to almost half their value and my hero (Zen) is already being nerfed and countered. It's not a fun experience spending lots of money for something that will last me a set.

[@Yun_V12]

You make a lot of good points. You mentioned it already, but one thing I would like to emphasize a bit is that FaB is an (almost) non-rotating game. Often, cards are reusable between decks, and eventually, owning them pushes the price down significantly. When comparing fab with other tcg: I didn't play Yugioh for too long, but I feel that in that game, it was the other way around: The hand traps that you play in multiple decks were relatively cheap, but the cores and engines were brutally expensive. So, when bans are announced, your deck not only became non-viable, but its (resell-)value drops dramatically. Buying the next meta engine felt steep to me. This is something I feel FaB has been rather good at avoiding so far. Your deck value doesn't plummet hard if you want to sell cards for another deck. Maybe you can give some insight how it is for One Piece? From a players perspective, what I also find intresting is, that it feels like every deck will have its time in the sun eventually. Aside from the generics, you will get all the cards for dirt cheap, if you happen to enjoy a hero that isnt currently tier 1. But I guess that does not count as an argument, if we (understandably so!) want to have the best chances of snagging those wins and have the new cool thing right now. Most of the card prices sky rocket once a deck gets popular, or unexpectetly win a tournament. Recently, our LGS got a lot of new players, which is awesome! I started with Tales of Aria and got the important staples over time. So, jumping decks is not THAT expensive because, in my case, a big chunk of the deck price comes from cards I already own from previous sets. However, for new players, the buy-in is really expensive, today more than ever. I wish they would address this problem more. There are some cheap cards that work as an allright replacement for the meantime for many cards, but if you want to get the real deal, it gets expensive. Especially cards for classes like assasin the barrier is so high. My wish would be that they continue to regularly reprint staples in the expansion slots, like they did with Spring Tunic or Foundry Heart, and make some of the good cards available in a special armory decks or something. I think most active players wouldn't mind if their collection "loses" value if the promise is a growing player base to enjoy the hobby together with. I think accepting that this is an issue and trying to work on it will benefit the new player and the old as well.

[@jaymenchristian880]

Keep up the great work man already got me into one piece and it looks like fab is next

[@idesean]

I think a key factor is games like One Piece and Pokemon have collectors and fans of the franchise that drive the price of non chase singles down where as in FAB the market is mainly driven by competitive players so staples remain expensive. While I agree that the armory decks could be better, they do have exclusive cards that you should take into account to when considering the price. I still think they are a better value then the blitz decks which are usually just bulk commons and rares. Armory decks are also easier an easier entry point for new players who can pick one up in store and play CC armories out of the box instead of having to go out and buy singles from multiple online vendors and wait for shipping. Prereleases and other limited events are also good entry points since you don't need to have a deck built already and it puts everyone on a more level playing field. Also if you're just playing casually and your locals are cool with it you can just borrow or proxy the expensive cards.

[@zetaalphaomega]

agree 100%. I really2 wanna go into fab, but seriously seems like u gotta pay up at least 300$ for a set of three cards which are not even foil. i dont mind spending some money on tcgs but the difference between the much needed cards for a deck to be optimal and just whatever cards are too significant. i wish that maybe they could do a reprint but maybe in like every 2 years so they can still welcome new players into the game, hey maybe within 2 years there are better cards than command and conquer, but newer player can still get the old reprints of c n c to play with. im not saying so they can drop the price of cold foils and legendary or whatever, just color code the reprints and those ones are the only ones who are cheap. you want cold foils then u pay premium.

[@somerando6215]

Yeah ngl the staples are the biggest issue with FAB right now especially some generic action cards. I remember Weakest Link used to be a $6 Majestic now it's almost as expensive as Command and Conquers.

[@Possu81]

Price equity is everything for LSS since it's players' game right now. They have managed pretty well for keeping prices stabile of most used cards. Most players really hope their collection won't crash in value. I agree FaB would need more budget strategies

[@Vvulfkrit]

Interesting point, if this is true, I see it as a real issue. Why would a player be interested in whether or not their cards are going to dip in value since they already have their playsets? This seems like a strategy people would be interested in only if they were thinking about leaving the game soon

[@StanDerg]

@@Vvulfkrit Lots of players think like this, I think like this. I'm a father of two, full time job that has me as the bread winner for my household. I dont ever plan on quitting this game, its exactly what Iv wanted in a TCG since I started playing them with MTG, 20 years ago. But the day may come where I simply dont get to interact with the game, maybe because of health, time, personal reasons etc. I love that my collection is worth pretty much what Iv put into the game (in most cases its more), so that if my hand is ever forced, I CAN cash out and it not have been a net negative as is with lots of games. I played standard Pokemon and standard MTG for a very long time and in each case, I was hardly able to recoup any money spent went I quit those games. LSS is going to keep respecting players collections, which means some cards hold value.

[@CommissionerManu]

I wish clash got some official support and encouragement to host tournaments, it seems like the best longer term casual format

[@jiffyb333]

You're absolutely right that it's crazy expensive at the high levels of play. LSS has stated it's working as intended and will keep cards near those prices going forward. That doesn't bother me as a casual player though. I use unaltered armory decks and have no issues going toe to toe with fully kitted out decks at an armory event or jamming games with friends. I mostly spend my time drafting or playing commoner which are super low cost and a ton of fun. But as I said you're right that wanting to play with high level cards is out of reach for budget players. :)

[@MTVENGE]

Sold all my TCG collections to play fab, so I'm entrenched in the scene. Agreed, not a cheap game and this isn't something I don't see Devs addressing. Just look at the current starter products lineup - the blitz box is a 80aud purchase. First strike decks aren't sold as a set with any additions, which is a proven kickstart for any tcg. Armory decks just drop new players into the deep end pool before they know if they like the game for 50aud. This game is designed for competitive play, but treating the cost of the game as the bridge to cross hurts the growth of the game at casual level.

[@ibonbon92]

The armory decks tho has pretty good value cards as a beginner deck without breaking the bank imo. Armor suite is good in terms of power level, you get majestics and staples for the class as well. Sure you might not win all your games but it a potential too win in an armory level. Some cards that are in the armory deck can be seen in a fully built competitive CC deck.

[@tylerschultz4041]

Although some of the generic staples are expensive LSS has been pretty good about reprints. Fyendal's Spring Tunic was a 250 dollar card not long ago and has been reprinted 3 times already. The secondary market is very player driven so these cards are expensive because the game keeps growing and not as many people are opening up product. I think if we want cheaper cards we need to focus on playing more draft and sealed which will bring the price down by creating more supply for the demand.

[@Vvulfkrit]

The fact that cards used to be more expensive is not really a good thing to bring up to newer players. A new player see's that as, "This game is expensive and reprints didn't help it." That's an interesting idea with having more drafts, but how will that help getting these old cards? Are you saying to do drafts of older product?

[@tylerschultz4041]

​@@Vvulfkrit Ya I mean draft old sets. There's still a ton of unopened product for all of these older sets. The more copies opened the more the prices go down. Most of the draft formats are still fun to play as long as you like limited.

[@Odin_30]

@@Vvulfkrit do you even understand what "reprint" means? you have those kind of takes and then want for ppl to not be offended when you undermine what is clearly on all levels the best tcg out there to play competitively...

[@Vvulfkrit]

@@Odin_30 I was replying to another persons comment lol, they said a card had been reprinted x amount of times and the card was still around $100. Calling FaB the best game out there to play competitively seems delusional. And what does that have to do with reprints?

[@Vvulfkrit]

@@tylerschultz4041 Ah gotcha, ya that's an interesting take, I personally don't like draft but I can see where you are going with the idea

[@Y0kAiS]

Maybe reprinting? 😅

[@Zarfin]

You have some valid points. But to be fair, there are so many different, contradicting opinions on the products and what LSS should do, that it is impossible for them to make everybody happy. For example, many consider the Classic Battles an abysmal product and the Blitz decks somewhat of a failure, because a) Blitz is not the main format and not played everywhere, b) you won´t stand a chance in an armory with them and c) you can basically create them yourself from (often free) set bulk. If CnC was down to 15-20 dollars, I would certainly be happy, but others who bought their playset already would scream their lungs out :D

[@Vvulfkrit]

I understand people would be upset at first if the prices of cards went down because of what they may have spent on them, I've already experienced that in other TCGs and people have experienced it in this game too. However, would they be upset if it helped the game grow and get new players? I have talked to countless players at this point just in the area that I live in (which is a very booming TCG community experiencing growth across all TCGs except FaB) and players online through my YT Channels, and ALL of the players I've talked to have a problem with the price of cards in this game. Are we supposed to just tell all of them to get over it? Because when you do, they just say, "Okay, I'll just get over getting in to this game." One of my concerns for this game going forward is it is becoming an elitist game and the community is starting to show signs of delusion and denial. I'm just interested in seeing this game grow and do well because I have put money down on this game and I actually think it is a really cool game. As far as the Starter Decks go in all their different forms, it doesn't matter if it's a Blitz deck or an Armory deck, they're just needed to get people to try the game out and fall in love with it. And every product has the potential to do that, so the cheapest rout is ALWAYS the correct choices in that case because it becomes the most attractive rout for a new player. Once they get in to the game they will start looking in to what they really want to play, and what really stands out to them. That is where they run in to the problem of prices in the game they're thinking about going all in on. Just my personal opinion and also speaking from experience.

[@Zarfin]

@@Vvulfkrit I agree with all of your points. I had to quit all my other hobbies just to get into this game and I spent way more money than I like to admit. For me it was impossible to get any of my friends into the game because of the price. That being said, people also like their collections to have value and that they can gamble on making their money back relatively easily by opening a display or a case. If you pull a shiny 200 dollar card, you suddenly have no problem with the high price tag in that moment :D I stand by my point that LSS tries to balance different opinions and expectations at the same time. And I have heard "the game is too expensive" as often as "I pulled a legendary and it is only 20 dollars?! That doesn't feel good". They increased the drop rate of rainbow foil legendaries in outsiders and there was a lot of complaining about the low value of these cards. Personally I like the legendaries at their current price of 50-100 dollars, but for the majestics to come down to 20 dollars max as you need a playset of them.

[@canadianized]

I'm someone who has 3 Rainbow Foil & 9 White Border C&C... (I don't like using proxies if I don't have to, and I can bring multiple full power loaner decks) and I would love to see the price tank! I'm probably a rarity, though.

[@richardoaks8333]

Grain of salt, I think the harder the barrier to break thru, the more you appreciate the reward. Some cards are meant to set the market standard. Catch some Saturday afternoon yard work or deliver pizza for one or two nights a week... you'll be able to get you a sweet set of command and conquer! It's just grinding! Budgeting and goal setting are a big part of managing collectible, premium hobbies. I also recommend limited weekly to build your collection. The draft experience alone is worth the cost, you can extract alot more value by playing your packs. Lastly, be sure to play lots of games. How many nights can you play flesh and blood? Every game you play justifies market value, so get lots of reps and play in your armory events! Hope this helps someone!

[@barby007]

Sadly I got into this game right as Tales of Aria was being released & I was out by Evefest. Way too expensive. The fact that in equipment alone you spend about $400 if not more, was mind blowing. There are so many other fantastic games when a full high rarity competitive deck will cost least than $500. The game went from being played at about 5 local game stores to not played at all. You can only find 1 LGS near me with a few products left. The game died & it was sticky because of prices. People went to other games. LSS needs to re analyze their game.

[@Deingel12]

I feel like the game being expensive is fine at a competitive game, but it's also in the community to be more welcoming to budget/casual players. Like if you know that there are a lot of newer players interested in the game, then maybe don't use the best deck you have against them

[@Vvulfkrit]

But if the cards were more affordable everyone could just play the best decks right? Like in the other game that I main, One Piece all the new players can just afford the best decks and start slugging it out with the better/more experienced players. Not always of course, it depends on your budget, but being able to afford a $250 fully built S-tier deck is much easier to scrounge together and even budget for vs a $1000 deck.

[@Deingel12]

@@Vvulfkrit I'm definitely for FAB being cheaper dont get me wrong, it's also the reason why I cant get into the game I'm just saying that it's disingenuous for people saying that "you dont need the expensive cards in your deck" only for them to go to locals and demolish the newbies with said expensive cards

[@Vvulfkrit]

@@Deingel12 Oh gotcha, sorry I might have misunderstood you the first go around.

[@ThatSquidBoySpins]

When you’re pulling deck lists from big tournaments you’re pulling lists from players who are invested and entrenched, achieving one of those lists should be a goal that’s set not a checklist to begin. It’s a little bit entitled to expect to obtain all of the most powerful cards with no investment, I understand the pain point of a newer player getting their skull stomped on at first and there’s a temptation to blame their losses on not having those cards. But in reality it’s the skill gap. Fab being a Spikes(not casual) paradise is both the games biggest strength and weakness.

[@Steamedhams578]

There's a big difference between 50 dollars and 100 dollars though. Nothing about FAB being a great competitive game means that suddenly makes Tunic being 100 a good thing. It's like that because LSS sees that as acceptable. You can't argue that if Tunic or similar cards were closer to 50 dollars it wouldnt be better for newer players or even newer competitive players who go on to become entrenched in the game in the future. Sure it's great for investors but for players the entire point is people need to be enticed to become entrenched. Also it's not about entitlement when there are other cheaper games and options on the market that another player could go for instead. It's about business. LSS has made the business decision to let newer players have a rough time so that established players feel better about their collections. Even players who are willing to get competitive. A player thinking - "Hmm Id like to play more One Piece or FAB what should i do? Oh the FAB deck I want to play is 3x the price of the OP deck Id wanna play. Guess I'll play One piece for now instead". That's not entitlement that's just a natural occurrence that LSS should look to prevent. Prizing for both of these games are comparable btw.

[@datapark9118]

Its a balancing act bc then you get something like mtg where everything is just printed over and over again. you need cards that cost more to be rare not common bc then everyone will be playing the card and make it worthless and its healthy and knowing you got a really cool card that a lot of people don't have.

[@SUNIKIGAMING]

I disagree with most points here but respect your opinion. What you are asking for is tanking the EV of the sets. Ive been collecting FAB for 4 years and ive on average spent $50-$100 on product and the game monthly. I personally think if the game was dirt cheap it would have another effect of pushing collectors out the door. None of the fables are completely turning a game around and having no block value at times is actually a down side. Bravo and Fai are both quite cheap to build and CNC isnt completely game changing.

[@Vvulfkrit]

Right, but you do realize that while the low prices might push the Collectors away, the high prices push the new players away...

[@SUNIKIGAMING]

@@Vvulfkrit There's plenty of great collectors cards still being released worth hundreds still.

[@Churchless]

Idk..... I've been playing fab for a bit over 2 years and I've finally decided to get my CNC'S it's all about priority. There's a lot of "competitive" decks that don't use fables/cnc/warmongers. I came into fab after playing 40k since 2000, the cost is what it is. The value proposition differs from other cardgames due to the fact that (as of right now) i will always be able to use these cards since sets don't rotate out. Couple that with the fact that theres only 4 sets a year, and your hero might only want 1 or 2 cards from that set and it becomes a lot easier on the wallet. It's all about perspective.

[@Churchless]

Please don't take this the wrong way, I just don't think you have enough knowledge on the subject matter to really, honestly, give a nuanced take on this. This doesn't make your experience invalid btw.

[@Churchless]

Wait a minute, my 17 year old daughter has a part time job, she saved for weeks to buy her first case of fab (mistveil) she saved to buy her 3 (white border) command and conquers, and she saved and traded to fill out the rest of her enigma majestic and legendaries. She approached the hobby in a healthy manner, buying game pieces bit by bit. If she can do it, anyone can.

[@Steamedhams578]

​@@Churchless Anyone can that doesn't mean anyone should. Again doing what makes you happy is great but I am never gonna convince my friend who plays Pokemon tcg at a high level to get into a game where dropping a 100$ gets you a deck that isn't tournament viable. That's the main issue here, obviously FAB is great for people who see the value proposition as good enough but how are we gonna convince people who have another tcg they like when FAB is probably the most expensive outside of Modern Magic and Yugioh. Also cards might never rotate out but your hero will eventually. My first deck I bought, Dash is gonna hit LL soon. Now If I want to play Dash I/0 the deck certainly isnt the same I had to pickup another 150$ worth of cards. No fables/cnc/warmongers in Dash btw I still dont have any of those.

[@Churchless]

@@Steamedhams578 this is a luxury hobby, the perception of value on the cards is subjective. We literally have multiple ex/current Pokemon and Vanguard players that have bought into fab competitively. Also, it always sucks when your hero LL's but going from dash to I/o is a difference of like 3 copies of 1 majestic (heist)

[@SirRabbit]

I've always felt like people place too much importance on owning cards like C&C and Estrike. Acting like they can't play good games at their local armouries without them. I know plenty of people who have won armouries without C&Cs and tunics. Don't get me wrong, I recognize that the prices are insane on the staples, and id like for them to find an appropriate solution that doesn't just devalue peoples collections (i thought White border was good, but they've barely utilized it). but i do feel like people place too much emphasis on not owning staples and using it as a scape goat for their loses or enjoyment of the game.

[@Swiitchd]

I'm really tired of people saying "I know this community is touchy" or "I know people are sensitive".

[@redswordred]

I think you kind of proved his point with this comment lol

[@Odin_30]

couldn't go over the first 6 minutes, when I saw that tcg avg deck price ranking I knew it was a video of someone talking nonsense about something he clearly doesn't understand enough to be a community guide...

[@Vvulfkrit]

Which decks do you think he should have used? Zen is $1000 Enigma is $1100 Nuu is $1400 Uzuri is $1350 Prism is $550 Levia is $1100 I think he was pretty generous with his FaB average cost, I'm assuming he used Dash and/or Kano with his average.

[@Odin_30]

@@Vvulfkrit show me the common cards between all those decklists and you will see my point 👍🏻

[@Odin_30]

And Im sorry if you live in Scalpland, aka USA, because in Europe we dont have those prices.

[@Vvulfkrit]

@@Odin_30 There are common cards across all TCG's that multiple decks can play though? What does that have to do with the average cost of a deck?

[@Odin_30]

@@Vvulfkrit if you want to invest on a TCG to play competitively and most of the price of a deck is regarding staple generic cards that play across most of the decks, dont you consider it a worthwhile investment?

[@dreicortezdotcom]

As someone who has spent hundreds of dollars on this game, I sincerely wish that the new MST and ROS Japanese Archive Packs have the prices of staples go down by a lot (or at the very least have the Japanese versions be very accessible in price).