REAL COST Of RENOVATION: Is it Worth Doing It Yourself? - Ep. 235

[@karrieharbart9266]

Growing up, my family was very much of the mindset of "do it yourself" and it has been one of the greatest gifts. I didn't always have the confidence to do things myself, but after paying a repair guy $200 for a job that took 20 minutes, him doing exactly what I thought needed to be done, but I was too afraid to do; I decided to just be more courageous. Since then I have saved so much on repair costs and have learned so much! I think you all are doing an amazing job! The kitchen in the meadow house is so beautiful! You can truly see the extra attention to detail that Sander put into it. I'm looking forward to seeing what you do at the common house, especially the Speakeasy!

[@FlockFingerLakes]

Good for you @karrieharbart9266 .. It really is empowering being able to do things yourself and then having the attention and appreciation for detail and knowing that the job was done well-on top of saving some bucks. For instance, yesterday, we put up a copper bird watering dish on the deck and it was designed 'crooked' and we fixed it to be level, and Sander walked out and shared something so little but important: "I'm so satisfied seeing the water level in that water dish now." It's funny, but it's those little things that can be so satisfying, especially when you know it's done right.

[@tunamaniak]

One more thing I learned at my own home renovation to save old lumber and ask around for old lumber. Your cottage turned out to be a masterpiece, giving you much confidence for the big one.

[@erinmoore9681]

A 15 year architecture and design professional here. Just wanted to say the design fee contains a few things that the typical homeowner can’t do themselves. Namely MEP engineering, space planning, permit document production and permit administration do that you end up getting permit approval at the end prior to commencing construction. If a lot of the design decisions are made going in, that design fee can come down. But when you ask for a bid and don’t know what design decisions you will even need to make, the firm will make some of those assumptions. I know a full gut scope would likely take a year of planning/permit administration before you even begin the construction phase. That would typically take more than one person working on the design. I wanted to give you some perspective there.

[@cefcat5733]

Money, money. You have obviously made some great decisions. Happy for Flock, that you are young, smart and strong. Spring is coming!!!! 😊

[@FireflyOnTheMoon]

A couple of points: 1) It has been a good learning process for me to watch the projects develop over the past few years, as someone who was envisaging doing something similar-ish myself. It's a good reality check. 2) I wouldn't under-estimate age as a factor in such projects. If in your 20s or 30s the physical, mental, emotional and energy investment for the long haul is probably easier than to begin such a project and DIY if starting in 50s, 60s or 70s. 3) It's good practice to always ask specifically for a break down of a quote for labour v materials - on a tiny, huge or any kind of project. It's impossible to compare quotes from companies if you don't know what they re charging for. If they don't break it down, ask them to do it for you and keep the records. 4) if someone is attempting to charge $600, 000 for a reno of a 800 squ ft house, then the company should be shut down by trading standards. That is more than said house would cost outright in central London. Such a quote is the work of con artists on the make. If they are a member of a trade federation, they should be reported. You say "they can charge what they like" but that does not mean they should. It's just fraud.

[@FlockFingerLakes]

Excellent points you're making. On age: over the years of looking for land, we've met so many folks who built beautiful homes and gardens and they only got their start at 50. The land we first fell in love with was actually started by a couple in their 50s. So don't count it out, I guess is what I'm saying. But...I concur, I don't know if I would have the same energy in my 60s/70s as I do in my 30s. Itemized quotes: If folks will give you one, then take it. What contractors are now saying, however, is that they cannot predict prices of materials, so they are giving 'quotes that can change', which can get dicey for sure!

[@rockyschannel6816]

Girllllll. I am 54. My husband and my dad died. I taught myself plumbing. I painted cabinets. I bought a staple gun. I did this with a big time career it takes 10 times long months and years longer. Totally worth it for me.

[@FlockFingerLakes]

SO glad you rolled up your sleeves and #GotShitDone.

[@bettenotap4791]

Saunder is a gem, you just have to figure out how to clone him!

[@paulnee4156]

Thank you Summer for exposing the need in this country for skilled tradespeople. Please stay on your soapbox, the every kid needs to go to college IMO has caused a whole generation of people that can't fend for themselves. I'm a 70 y.o. retired carpenter that ended my career as the safety director for one of the largest specialty contractors in the PNW and my salary rivalled many in the Hi- tech arena so prevalent here in the PNW. Tradespeople do have an avenue to a great career and the self satisfaction that comes in seeing what one creates. Keep up these videos. We're in the process of enlisting many of your ideas into our 3.5 acre place, on the beach of the Pacific Ocean on the Long Beach peninsula in Washington.

[@janebutz5375]

Great video, Summer. Very realistic. 50 years ago, I married a handy guy and we built our first house at 22. Yeah, I know! Since then, we have restored several old houses, taking our time. We have sometimes hired contractors; I learned that I don’t enjoy roofing or sanding floors, but love plastering and repairing old windows. Even if you love this work ,there will be jobs you don’t like. The satisfaction and empowerment is immeasurable. Thanks for the support of the trades. My husband left school and became a full-time electrician. I’d rather have a smart tradesman any day over a silly boy who could make a fancy paycheck.

[@barbll000]

Another thing about DIY is the confidence you gain as you learn and apply your skills to a project. I found I then thought "I can learn to do that" when it came to installing electrical lighting which scared me and I always hired someone to do it. Your confidence builds as your skills build. There are so many online resources available now to learn that were not available many years ago. When you mentioned the kitchen, the execution is spectacular and I know that when you DIY you put your heart and soul into the project as well. You both did an amazing job and we are learning a lot from you both when you break things down and explain, like this video about costs and expectations.

[@mrsrover8997]

I can relate! In 2021 we sold our house in the city and planned to build a house in the country... when covid drove up the cost of building supplies, we postponed the build and lived in a 12x12 room in our garage for a year and a half while we built our little house. It was worth the wait.

[@FlockFingerLakes]

Glad to hear it worked out for you. I think we would have been in the same boat. We were really close to buying raw land, and I think we would have been in a tent!

[@Monkchip]

I just love all that you've done to your beautiful land! ❣️

[@FlockFingerLakes]

Thanks. It's a journey and we are really enjoying doing it together.

[@rhodealexandre6583]

I am all for using one’s own hands. Wise decision to tackle as much as you can yourself

[@savedsole3848]

Loving this journey

[@MiriamPendleton]

If you do it yourself and have a regular job, be prepared for it to take a very long time. That said, you won't have a mortgage and you will learn a lot. Our house isn't quite finished yet after 35 years, but it's really close! And you're spot on about the nicer level of finish.

[@krewetkaaaa]

Really 35years? I guess only things left are small details you don't really care about to finish... Otherwise hard to imagine why not done in let's say first 10 years

[@MiriamPendleton]

Well... we had 3 kids and built a large outbuilding and some smaller structures during that time. Give it a try when you have a full-time job and really do it yourself - no contractors. And yes it is down to the details at this point. More power to you if you can do it in ten! @@krewetkaaaa

[@Double0pi]

I love the idea of tracking my time. I've never done this in the past, but plan to do this in the future.

[@ja-uh9gz]

It is crazy expensive just to have a plumber show up. Recently, I had a plumber come out to check out a ceiling leak...my bathroom above, and all he did was make a larger hole in my ceiling...not sure of the cause, a pipe or bathtub/shower. So, he tells me to keep an eye on it. Nothing was fixed...less than a half hour, $135.00. Ridiculous. You are so lucky to have Sander, with carpentry and architectural experience to help keep the costs down. His work is beautiful. You both work well, are smart and have the desire to learn.

[@FlockFingerLakes]

I blushed after the plumber prices.

[@sharonknorr1106]

So my dad was a construction electrician. He was one of the smartest and most hard-working people I have ever know with my mother his equal (she was a surgical nurse before having kids). We lived a very comfortable middle-class life. My parents played a lot of golf, went on many trips with their friends and lived long and fulfilling lives. My brother and I both went to college on their dime. My dad and his other blue-collar buddies built an addition and garage on to our smallish 50's built house. It is appalling to see today how much is spent on college educations that don't even bring well-paying jobs to afford those enormous college costs. I appreciate the value of the college experience and having a well-rounded based of knowledge. But today you can easily build that base of knowledge yourself using any number of low-cost resources. We desperately need tradespeople and many kids would greatly benefit from a career like that where their minds are challenged but they are also physically busy. So we need to get off the "everybody needs to go to college" mindset and start helping kids find a path that is truly best for them. End of rant.

[@FlockFingerLakes]

I really think that's changing and the general trend right now is that a lot of Gen Zers are re-evaluating whether college is right for them or not. That being said, I don't know if Gen Z as a whole is interested in the trades, so even though they may not be going to college in the same way that Millennials have in the past, it may not mean an influx of tradespeople. As a side note but related point, part of the reason the immigration policies are out-of-whack and the borders are made so porous at the moment by the current administration is in part due to sadly, increasing population numbers and increasing lower-cost labor or military recruits, as per the directive of the IOM (International Office of Migration), which is a UN initiative. Three out of the four of us here are international, and came to the US through proper means (special visas, green cards), but people coming through proper means are typically not tradespeople or people willing to serve in the military, which is why it appears border policy is so lax at the moment. Additionally, out of the 4 of us here, only 1 went to university (me) and I was the ONLY one who had to take out a loan to actually contribute to buying this place, because I had just finished paying off my college loans (my parents weren't able to contribute to my college education, so I was really working from the bottom up, but luckily got quite a bit of need-blind grants and academic scholarships along the way to help with costs). But that just goes to show you, my counterparts were able to work right away out of high school and start saving at 16, 17, 18 years old -as opposed to paying debt off for the next 10-15 years out of college. It's something that really need serious consideration for young people and to really weigh the options and encourage them to really have them think what they want out of life. Another stat that I just saw the other day on independent news is that in 1983, around the time I was born, the average middle class work wage was $30,000/year and you could easily afford to buy a house around that time. Now, the MINIMUM you need to make to be considered middle class these days, adjusted for inflation is $174,000/year. And the average house is $450,000. Let that cost sink in! Sheesh.

[@andreeawhatever]

​​​@@FlockFingerLakesI think that the conversation is more nuanced than this. While I agree it's ridiculous for us as a society to claim that everyone needs to have a college degree, people outside US have access to free or cheap education. I myself got a masters degree in the Netherlands, where Sander is from, at vrije universiteit, which is one of the big ones, and it costed 1.2k per year but I got a scholarship based that covered that and some of my living expenses. There was also a financial assistance option for students that had a job and were from low income families that I took advantage of (I am from Romania and our incomes are lower). I ended up graduating from my master's degree debt free and with a bit of money in my bank account. I also got a bachelor's degree in my native Romania that was entirely free, and based on that I got a job at a very large tech company in US and managed to move to a higher income bracket than my parents, who are low income, working class and without a college degree. If we make college such a high risk option, people that could do well in certain fields might never gather enough momentum to go for it. College does need to be this fancy experience with so many amenities, and football field and so on. All you need is some decent professors. With access to internet and your peers, you will figure out the rest yourself. My university in Romania had very old furniture, some of the class rooms were not properly heated, all the equipment was old, we did not have a proper cafeteria and so on. But I got out of there and got accepted to my masters in the Netherlands and then moved to US to make 6 figures. Education can be very powerful and some fields are hard or impossible to get into without formal training.

[@Neilhuny]

Sander deserves a few beers for his design skills and attention to detail, and Summer deserves a few beers for letting us all join in with the renovation from our armchairs

[@FlockFingerLakes]

Thank you so much! We're going to put your generous donation to good use. Will buy us some 2x4s for these walls we need to frame up! Have a glorious day :)

[@jillbork2683]

Great Video, love the channel!

[@charlesbale8376]

I really enjoyed the video and found your information very useful.

[@FlockFingerLakes]

Glad that the info is helpful in some way.

[@ac42405]

Back in the day, we used salvaged materials for a living room addition; literally removed a tin ceiling in an old building that was being demolished (as one example) and installed the tin panels on our ceiling addition. Congrats on the money you have saved, things are crazy expensive these days to say the least. I really like the existing kitchen cabinets in your Common House, the light wood tone is very much back on trend as opposed to painted... not that trends matter overly much.

[@FlockFingerLakes]

We're definitely keeping the kitchen cabinetry in the Common House. It's beautifully done with cherry wood. And very modern. We have to make some changes here and there, like changing out the flooring and some appliances, but luckily we won't have to make major changes there, which will save on cost. It's so sensible to reuse as much as you can. Materials, in some cases, are not even as nice / high quality now as they were back then. We've been reusing older 2x4s, which are much higher quality then some we received recently.

[@davidhuth5659]

I was wondering if you included the cost of purchasing all the tools and equiptment needed to do it yourself.

[@FlockFingerLakes]

It's a good point. Tools should definitely be a consideration for folks. We didn't do that because we ended up inheriting tools from my dad and Sander ended up purchasing tools under his own business. Because we realized those tools will be handy to all who live at Flock, we then recorded it as an "in-kind gift" to Flock from Sander so that he gets a larger share of the pie. But in the big scheme of things, the tools pale in comparison to costs of renovation/contractors, especially because it's something that you'll theoretically have for life and can use across multiple projects. But for folks starting from scratch, budgeting for tools would be important to consider. Especially if you don't plan on using them over and over again. But I think it's sensible having at least basic tools around because eventually you'll have to be your own handyman or woman.

[@Siry2000]

Great video and appreciate the annecdote. I know of a certain passive house project you may be familiar with that has a similar sticker shock story 😂.

[@FlockFingerLakes]

Ooof! So we heard!

[@christinelarkin8054]

Plus! You'd never get the quality that you get, when you do it yourself. I kept wondering how people were able to afford all the home construction that was going on since 2020. Never have been happy with most work that we've had contracted.

[@FlockFingerLakes]

That is a solid, solid point. We've had to actually redo the work of some contractors we hired because they installed things incorrectly or not up to standards, and even though we thought we'd save money, it ended up costing us more time to do it ourselves. One thing I will say is that we met some contractors that were having a hard time finding gigs before the pandemic, but now it's opened up more opportunities for people who want to become contractors, carpenters, plumbers and electricians-more so now than ever.

[@SequoiaElisabeth]

I usually do the initial calculations and the double it for the loan or raising of funds. I respect your pioneering spirit, and this is a large reason I watch this channel.

[@cherylkemp548]

Lol..jack shit😂..as a self taught 'improver' I can really relate to this video. My husband and I have doubled our living space in our home and built a 2 story garage..we made some mistakes, then we made the corrections. We definitely learned most of our skills on the job. You just can't be afraid to try.

[@rebekahdempsey3966]

Yeah, I bet you saved way more. Designers and architects charge $100-$200 an hour and general contractors charge even more. I don't think you were price-gouged by that architect. It just takes a lot more work to design something and create drawings and presentations to communicate that to a client and then help them make decisions than it does to figure out what you want yourself and work off of your own 3d model to build it.

[@FlockFingerLakes]

Yeah, I understand that it's probably not getting price-gouged by the architect. But it felt really strange, especially because we already had all the blueprints handy for the house, and had done the 3D modeling of the house ourselves to give to the architects. Additionally, we have a really clear sense of what we want for the design of the house and where things are going to go, much like the Meadow House, so it felt as if we were doing a lot of the work upfront and the design fee felt "redundant" to us. It was, in general, a huge wake up call.

[@camillecomeau6939]

Why is "Our homestead" playlist in reverse?

[@FlockFingerLakes]

All playlists go from newest > oldest. But you can shuffle them if you want.

[@camillecomeau6939]

@@FlockFingerLakes I'm more interested in chronological/logical order. Right now, I have to pick them manually (I'm at episode 005 now, very interesting :) ).

[@sdqsdq6274]

saunders need a massage chair as a present , lol

[@FlockFingerLakes]

Funny because I was thinking I need a massage after pulling my muscle using the jackhammer! haha. Massages all around!

[@SeductiveSpaceship23]

Did anybody else get auto-subbed to this channel? Never heard of it before, but got the notification for this video and yt says I'm subscribed...

[@MattieAMiller]

that is so strange. well if you are interested in staying... welcome to the flock?

[@FlockFingerLakes]

Interesting! Not sure how that happened but cool you're here.

[@krewetkaaaa]

I guess just some misclick at some point in the past. Don't really see the way you could be auto subscribed

[@SeductiveSpaceship23]

@@krewetkaaaa nah, it's not the only channel either, found another one that I never heard of just now. There was a time a few years ago when yt did this big time, mass subbing people to channels, I don't recall if anyone ended up finding out what that was all about, but yeah, guess they're back at it haha.