"Art isn't a product..." huh... all those classical artists and their patrons paying for said art.... sure could have fooled me.
@bloodyidit4506Күн бұрын
if it's treated as a product, it becomes horrible, therefore it is effectively and in practice not a product. Human categorization is flawed inherently, don't trust it.
@InDeathWeLoveКүн бұрын
@@bloodyidit4506 Your conception of what art is, is infantile. It has always been treated as a product. The vast majority of artists have always considered how their art would be received and how they can keep food in their mouths and it has affected their art.
@KingBuilder525Күн бұрын
Books, films and games are absolutely art. You may not like all of them, and most of them might be bad art, but it’s still art
@Void-KnullКүн бұрын
I guess the point that they aren't inherently art went completely over your head, huh?
@KingBuilder525Күн бұрын
@@Void-Knull That's my point. They *are* inherently art. Being bad and/or corporate doesn't make it not art. Imagine saying paintings or music aren't inherently art.
@yurigagarine699817 сағат бұрын
@@KingBuilder525 where's the art in Morbius? In the latest Marvel's slop? It's not because it's shot on camera that it's automatically art.
@erickroeger116113 сағат бұрын
I think there is a pivotal point in the creation process where the "art" no longer belongs to you but to an audience or company, ultimately a product... its a interesting take and asks us if we are sacrificing authenticity for a meager purpose. I think I understand what is being suggested here, that we need to raise and cultivate a more refined audience in the industry but it comes with the territory of our culture; its why micro transactions prevail because kids are buying them, why optimization is a second thought because people ride the hype regardless. It creates a market of no bargaining power or lackluster quality, its why things are kinda crap in AAA standards. The other things is games aren't just "art" but also perhaps activity and other things; the classification becomes a net catching the water; I just don't find that a productive argument to be had.
@Dragon_ScreamerКүн бұрын
The problem with calling video games "art", is how people hold the meaning of the word "art" higher and higher, and thus demand games to be closer to the *general definition of art* than what they're supposed to be: fun. The expectation of calling your final outcome "art" can overwhelm developers. Games that were never meant to be held in such regard in the first place -like indie games- very often just fade into obscurity, hoping they maybe become a niché classic ten years down the line.
@phisk5314Күн бұрын
"Meant to be" by whom?
@FordHoardКүн бұрын
What a bad take. BioShock is objectively a good game. BioShock 2 is criminally underrated. Infinite was where they went wrong.
@acelga239414 сағат бұрын
Would you kindly elaborate in that? I've played it for the first time a month ago and didn't really click with the combat, the (lack of) exploration nor the way the game tells it's story. I just want to know what I missed about it.
@captainhowlerwilson508Күн бұрын
Absolutely disagree with you and don’t care. This game is a masterpiece and the gameplay was awesome with an amazing story told in a very unique way.
@TheBig451Күн бұрын
Okay. We don't care that you don't care. It was extremely disappointing compared to System Shock 2 (a game which I'm sure you've never played, because you're probably the exact type of person this game was designed to cater to) to a lot of us and while I don't think Bioshock is BAD, it's not all that great either. They took one of the most immersive and challenging games ever made and turned it into a pretentious dudebro shooter for the Xbox derps. It was at least a lot better than the trash fire that was Infinite, at least. Other than the art direction, which I will agree is fantastic, there is nothing in Bioshock that hadn't already been done before, far better, by considerably older games.
@captainhowlerwilson508Күн бұрын
@And while I haven’t played SS 2 yet, and would eventually, I don’t share your opinion at all. It was not pretentious at all and was still challenging and fun. Maybe not as challenging as its spiritual predecessor, but still super engaging and immersive with a great story and strong gameplay. I find that part where you said it was a director shooter made for Xbox derps to be really elitist and stupid and makes you sound like you think that these players don’t know any better when they just want something cool and exciting. I didn’t need you to give me that long-winded explanation for why you didn’t enjoy it as much because I certainly don’t care and find some of your complaints to be mostly nitpicking.
@skaranoКүн бұрын
doesnt care yet cares enough to tell everyone
@FordHoardКүн бұрын
@@TheBig451 You're the type of guy that says "any Elder Scrolls after Arena was bad" because some hipster on reddit said the same thing in 2007, so you will perpetuate the same lie forever.
@Void-KnullКүн бұрын
@@FordHoard or maybe because he doesn't like it when his games get dumbed down and simplified for the sake of selling more copies to more consumers? "any Elder Scrolls after Arena was bad" is a valid opinion to hold, whether or not you agree with it is irrelevant.
@GoatJesusКүн бұрын
Honestly big agree. I actually despise current gamers demanding art should be product as if eveything must be flattened out. It was nice to hear a constrasting opinion. The fact of the matter is that art often isnt designed for everyone and the few that do appreciate it appreciate it that much more for being uncompromising and bold. The reason something like Majora's Mask didn't sell well compared to other Zeldas is that it was as uncompromising as it was and every element geared toward Buddhist ideas about rebirth etc. It's a game i love becuase it dared me to play on its terms to communicate an idea.
@bladedsweep83032 күн бұрын
Haven't finished the video yet, what games are on 2:59 and 3:08?
@RushHourWeekend2 күн бұрын
Ogre Battle 64. Super cool real time strategy game with automated combat.
@bladedsweep83032 күн бұрын
@@RushHourWeekend You mentioned the downsides of Morality Systems, I'm curious if you have any opinions about the Fable Trilogy's implementation of its Morality Systems.
@RushHourWeekend2 күн бұрын
I only played Fable 2, and that was back when it was new so you’ll have to forgive me if my memory is hazy, but all I remember is that “good” characters sprouted a halo over their head, and “evil” characters had scars and devil horns. And eating carrots or something somehow purified you and made you less evil. It’s a silly game where the alignment isn’t meant to be taken seriously… at least I hope it wasn’t.
@jaredgunkle1562Күн бұрын
valve designs their games around playtesting at every stage they swear by it and their games are typically regarded as the best of the best i dont think its antithetical to artistic expression a lot of artists will tell you that their first instincts were totally off and once they shopped an idea around it came together making something that plays more intuitively isnt a downgrade bioshock definitely focused on the combat over exploration and the rpg mechanics of ss2 but it blows it out of the water in terms of art design atmosphere world building and writing i go back every few years despite the spongy combat just to wander the leaky skyscrapers and listen to the audiologs
@RushHourWeekendКүн бұрын
I’m sure you’ve seen the excellent documentary Valve created to celebrate the 25th anniversary of Half Life. In it, Gabe Newell explicitly states that Half Life is a product, which explains the reliance on playtesting. When it comes to creating art, it’s one thing to bounce ideas off others, and it’s another to shape your design philosophy around pleasing others. Half Life is a good product, the focus testing served Valve very well, and it’s hard to deny that it raised the bar for the genre in terms of blending story with gameplay. But because it’s a product, that gave room for other companies to come around and improve that product, and offer better experiences, making it difficult to revisit Half Life 1 and view it as anything other than serviceable. A stepping stone for greater things. I guess this goes back to my argument that, for me, timelessness is a key component of art. Bioshock’s art direction and setting is still fantastic; the actual art team did a great job. In terms of drawing and modeling, this is quality art. But viewing the project as a whole? As a sum of its parts? It’s disappointing. Thanks for the comment! Good stuff.
@quarreneverett476714 сағат бұрын
I am under the impression you didnt oay attention to the video. The issue isnt play testing its streamline dumb down on focus testing. They are completely different environments
@quarreneverett476714 сағат бұрын
@@RushHourWeekendyou missed the part when he wasnt even talking about what you did. He said play testing yih are talking a out dumbed down focus testing and other stuff.
@quarreneverett476714 сағат бұрын
@@RushHourWeekendval e still focused on trying to makena fun game and decisions they wabted. They soecifically added in sections that they ddint think would like. For example the zombie noise randomly in that one building to make people scared to jump down as a fake out. Either way im nuetral as i want to see thinga improve. But alot of people dont ubderstand basic concepts about this stuff and the difference between watering down for the lowest common demoniator instead of a setting option versus working on making a functional fun game
@AndyDavidson-uc6qjКүн бұрын
Good video, I have somewhat mixed opinions with what you said. A lot of it I agree with. I think too much focus testing takes the soul from a game. Art is about taking risks and being true to a vision. If you water it down it may be palatable to more people but you just get less if it is to your taste. Let it be divisive because you are never gonna get true art that everyone likes. I don't remember everything about bioshock, I played it last probably a decade ago. I remember I liked it, but that the gameplay itself was a bit boring maybe. I thought the guns were passable and it was more of a story experience in my memory. It had a lot of high points, but I think most of what they thought would be the high points fell flat. I remember the twist seemed a bit obvious, and the whole moral system, as you said, was very binary and shallow. I think my main disagrement comes to what seems to be the thought that harder games are better and making a game accesable always ruins it. I don't know, some older games have a better soul, but if you cant play them for how difficult they are, does it matter. I am a bit torn. I think some quality of life additions are useful. Maybe, it isn't about difficulty, but more about integerity. Sorry for the novel, I liked your video and good for you for putting some actual thought into your opinion instead of just, it is a good game cause everyone else thinks so.
@RushHourWeekendКүн бұрын
Thanks for the comment! I like your point about integrity; I think there’s room for devs to cater to fans while also sticking to their guns on certain aspects. Not everything needs to be a compromise. I think it’s perfectly acceptable for creators to be at least a little bit selfish.
@quarreneverett476714 сағат бұрын
@@RushHourWeekendyah alot of.people that taalk about why a game lost moeny etc forget to take in mind the time period word of mouth wasnt reliable. Anytime you wanted to get a game you had to go browse and plan around it. Amomg other things :)
@kaiservenom270Күн бұрын
Free thinkers until they gotta follow that big, floating arrow pointing out where they must go next.
@fyr7343Күн бұрын
While I don't like Bioshock, I think these games are overrated - I don't think you even understand what art means.
@ALmt5lfКүн бұрын
This is a problem in most first-person . The first-person doesn't provide enough elements for developers to build an interesting game, and the bulk of the burden falls on the progression Systems and obstacles trying to salvage what can be salvaged from the simplicity of the first-person .
@MostlyPennyCat23 сағат бұрын
Really? Go play System Shock 2, _that's_ what bioshock was supposed to play like. That's why we both loved and were disappointed by bioshock, it was your typical watered down 00s corridor shooter where Shock2 was _vast_ and complex.
@ALmt5lf22 сағат бұрын
@MostlyPennyCat First Person , like poor quality meat, need a lot of spices and additives to bring out their flavor, unlike high-quality premium meat. However, there are developers who have been able to innovate in this, no doubt, such as Hungry Ghost and Condemned, but they have not improved on some aspects.
@MostlyPennyCat21 сағат бұрын
@ALmt5lf I think that's true of pretty much every... Well they're not genres are they? Every... Style? Of game is bad in the hands of one person, genius in another. Take, say, Super Mario World and sonic vs, I dunno, every crappy cookie cutter platform that controls like arse. Have you played Prey 2017? That's _glorious_ to play. What other format could make it better than it is?
@ALmt5lf21 сағат бұрын
@MostlyPennyCat You have to look at things deeply and abstractly, the first person is just the player controlling the camera, and so there are no other considerations to build on if the player is moving and the camera is always with him, there are not many things left for the developer to deal with, look for example at the third person for example the developer has a very difficult burden which is how to manage the camera and its angles in a way that is consistent with the mechanics that the player can see from this complex perspective, unlike the first person you find that most of the mechanics are outside the character and not inside it if you understand what I mean and this is a deep matter I do not think that most developers realize this.
@JosiahHaynes95Күн бұрын
You got some nerve having a different opinion than me 😠
@burningphoneix22 сағат бұрын
The vast majority of art in art museums are portraits or commissions the painter sold or was paid to produce for money. Someone better tell Leonardo da Vinci that "The Last Supper" isn't art now.
@burningphoneix22 сағат бұрын
Not that I disagree that BioShock is watered down mind you.
@LinkinMark199417 сағат бұрын
@@burningphoneixha, “watered down” 😂
@burningphoneix17 сағат бұрын
@@LinkinMark1994 Pun NOT intended 🥲
@BrannoDev14 сағат бұрын
The gamer in me 100% agrees. Bioshock's gameplay and decision making felt significantly watered down from SS2. But making games makes me empathise a lot with why BioShock got watered down. You can't continue to make great games if you can't make money. And via watering down, a lot more people got to enjoy a game that they otherwise wouldn't. You can see it with a game like Prey, it's constantly touted as an amazing game yet it was completely unable to penetrate the mass audience and was instead maximised the core gaming audience. And now that studio is dead. Almost all successful games are made as products first whether it's realised or not.
@CherryMellow-y2rКүн бұрын
I used to love Bioshocks atmosphere as a kid but absolutely hated the gameplay, I eventually played games like Deus Ex, System Shock, Prey 2017 etc and understood the immersive genre more. I eventually came back to Bioshock 1 and despite disliking how linear progression and your ways of approaching the game are I noticed that it becomes a lot more enjoyable on harder difficulties as you can get a bit lucrative with plasmids and tonics. Its been a while since I played it but barely having enough resources to kill big daddys made the Little sister saving vs harvesting issue a bit more enjoyable. Save 3 little sisters for a small amount of adam, but higher amount later meant that once I saved one I had to make sure I saved the rest otherwise I wouldnt have enough Adam to buy better equipment and once I eventually did it made the bonus feel even more rewarding. Its weird to me bioshock 1's gameplay is really mediocre, and shallow but theres things that I really like about it due to that. The stiff gunplay makes weapons look cooler when you upgrade them and it shows off more of the additions. Some of the more "novel" plasmids have some use like cyclone letting me trap big daddys into really poor spots and being able to kill them easier for it etc
@Mal_Freeman0451Күн бұрын
Bioshock has one flaw - research camera. Doesn't stop it being a 10/10 though.
@captainhowlerwilson508Күн бұрын
@@Mal_Freeman0451 That is honestly the only flaw I can think of in terms of gameplay, which is overall so dynamic.
@FordHoardКүн бұрын
I always thought the camera was fun.
@Mal_Freeman045121 сағат бұрын
@@FordHoard I enjoyed it the first couple of runs. After finishing the game 5 or 6 times, it's now a chore to start taking photos instead of engaging in combat just so the enemies will not be total bullet sponges for the rest of the game. But first or second time round, it was enjoyable for sure. Not enough of an issue to drop the game to a 9/10.
@electricsabbath996Күн бұрын
I finally stoped believing video games were art the day silent hill 2 remake was announced, everyone was clapping and cheering for nothing more than a graphical update, no value for the original game as individual work of art whatsoever, you can just take the game, re-do it in a new engine, and reap all the credit for how good it is, no shit its good, they didnt remake SH2 because everyone hated it. Imagine if people reacted the same way to movies, if some asshole have said " im remaking The Seventh Seal with a modern resolution and computer graphics because the technique and the technology used to make the original is now old and dated" they would be torn to shreds.
@reyjimenz13 сағат бұрын
The stupidity of this comment needs to be studied.
@Vinci48023 сағат бұрын
While I see your point, I think you did your arguement a injustice by framing it Art Vs. Product, instead of something like "How accessible should a game be?". While there are many games out there that easily prove Video Games being Art, there are just as many counter arguements. Same with Music, Same with Movies. For every Pulp Fiction, there is a Sharknado. For every Nirvana, there is a Coca Cola Musician Collab. Besides that many games even which are considered Art, have poor gameplay at times. While I might get flag for this, I think Elden Ring is a perfect example of this. Artistically, this is an insane Video Game. The Story, the Character Designs, The settings, etc. Everything literally screaming Art. Especially some places and how they are introduced. Meanwhile it has huge Issues with Scaling (even before you hit the DLC), builds that have WIDELY different experiences (one one shoots a boss but struggles at another and vice versa), very harsh gameplay loops (especially for people new to the series), and more and more. Art doesn't mean Perfection. The issues with the Art itself, is what makes Art, Art. I would argue to name any Video Game that many people consider Art, and there is as many people that can count the issues the Game has. There is no perfect Art and this should also be considered with Video Games. Especially Video Games being not a thing that are so easily done by one person. Same as Movies, the moment you need huge amounts of cooperation, you also need to make sure its possible to be executed. While I do agree, that if you look closer at BioShock, you can see it kinda setting itself into a really good place but then not fully going for it; I do think BioShock (at that time) was one of the standouts. There weren't many games (even nowadays if you are being honest) that go for that style and the Ideas. I think it would be more fair to consider what a fully "Art" BioShock would look like and how unappealing it would also be to play. I mean not everyone also wants to stomach Movies with Gore (pun intended) but there are still insane pieces there that are true Art. So only if you truely go into the details of what the Devs said, which ideas floated around, and what was feasible at the time, can you go and say "this is the BioShock we might have gotten but it got dumbed down" or "this is what BioShock might be with todays Tech and a big Dev studio". But right now it kinda looks like as if you critique DaVinci for not painting another Mona Lisa, meanwhile he was actively being evicted, had his family die, be hated by his local community, etc. All the issues the Studio and the Devs were going through, shouldn't be considered to be what makes that Video Game not true Art. Rather it should be seen as the limiting medium for that Art. Like how even the best Painters won't be able to make a 3D Hologram because within their current situation, its just not feasible. As much as every Studio wants to make Art. They also want to make sure they can keep doing Art (unless its a huge studio with shareholders). I would argue if DaVinci or most of the considered Artist of their Time, didn't have some way to financally support themselves, they wouldn't create the art they did. And even if they got a huge fountain of money, that also reflected in their work (look at some of the most famous portraits). Anyway I think it definitely is an interesting thought and all in all a good starting point, but I think you would have done yourself more justice if you have framed your arguements with a different perspective or a more fair assessment of the implecations than "Focus group said what they thought and the people WHO HIRED THEM, listened". I think you could have a lot of interesting points to make if you look at all the Devs that leave big studios because of creative differences or how many big studios "sell out" once they hit a certain size and all the people that made the Art pieces, left and what they do now. Kinda like how true Artists in Movies and Music also change with fame and money, etc. Anyway have a good start into your year! Hope you keep it up and we can all see you improve! And thanks for listening to my Ted Talk!
@jamesneuman7083Күн бұрын
Bioshocks gameplay felt so bad that I never got around to finishing it. The story was alright but I play a game for the game. Prey did the system way better.
@tottytheanimatorКүн бұрын
Hey, jumping the gun here, but I really like your intro two minutes about art as a demonstration or something of 'skillful expression'; I don't know, but I liked your video, helping me realize this horrifyingly shockingly fast and believable ai video age of able computers that do text to animation;=that that really isn't a threat to me the way I have been making it, more for why make it at all, as an animation especiallty- more than, why for me and my success existentially., IDUNNO, sometimes someone says something smart, and highly relevant to your live you've lived when you need a good pep talk to keep doing things cool instead of desperate and lame. Sifu is a great example of how to not insult the intelligence of a the video game player and instead surprises and continues to reward the player with split second four or more input single high power moves like a a dualstick helldivers-strategem tetris of room bowling. Level design. So important. Anyway, good vid have good day. sub
@Tenchinu2 күн бұрын
i always thought that ‘art’ is anything that transcends an emotional reaction and deepens your thoughts of the topic or object presented to you. Maybe a product could also be art in the sense that, it can make you feel the difference between them. Gatchas certainly make me feel that i never wanna make or even touch one… so maybe in a way, they did touch me in a deeper level as art would do
@RushHourWeekend2 күн бұрын
I really like the way you phrased this. Maybe you’re right; there’s value in a product provoking a feeling, good or bad, so long as it provokes something, because you can use it as a frame of reference.
@HairryTurttleneckКүн бұрын
man... i agree completely. id be happy if we just got inhouse game engines again
@BobExcaliburКүн бұрын
"Art" means two seperate tings. THERE'S ART THE CREATIVE ABSTRACTION. THEN THERE'S ART THE VERB. Artform, as an expansion of Articulation. Mastery of your ability to make real what is in the minds aye. One deserves respect. The other is fakery.
@AnthorOne19 сағат бұрын
At last! After all this time, confirmation that ME1 is more unique game than sequels :) I like it a whole lot more.
@MightyNumptyКүн бұрын
It has the vibe. It didn't click with you. That's okay. Of course there are areas it could be better, but that does not matter at all, because it has the vibe. If you don't feel entirely transported when you step into Rapture, I am sorry for you, but that is a you problem, not the game's problem.
@electricsabbath996Күн бұрын
all of that vibe immediately evaporates the second you step out of the pod and into rapture, i felt more immersed playing system shock 2 when i had to scavange for resources and peek around corners for monsters, and most importantly, the game didn't flash gameplay tips every 2 seconds or had a big arrow telling me where to go, i felt more immersed because i had to actually explore for myself.
@MightyNumptyКүн бұрын
@electricsabbath996 Maybe try survivor difficulty? Had a blast going for that trophy
@electricsabbath996Күн бұрын
@@MightyNumpty i didnt mean that the game wasn't hard, i meant that the survival horror atmosphere was gone, it plays more like doom with levels designed for babies.
@masterofnothing493815 сағат бұрын
Man this videos central theme is so disjointed and frustrating to follow, but I feel that you are trying to have an actual conversation about this. To me having a philosophical conversation about what determines something are art is fruitless, because you can ask any individual in the world and they will give you a different answer as to what they think “art” is in a vague description of something made to elicit a feeling. Cars can be seen as art even though they are a product. To me it’s hard to watch this because you seem to be coming at it as if art has a universally understood definition and maybe to super hot gamer boys like yourself it does. Games have far too many souls that work on them before the finished product to make a 1 to 1 direct comparison to contemporary art, as far as you’re concerned a environmental artist may have created a entire backstory around a specific prop in a game like a fence, to create a specific emotion that you would’ve jived with you just didn’t notice because you were too focused on the fact that you had to pay 60 dollars to see it. Further on, I completely agree with you on the ridiculous downright hilarious accessibility functions stapled on to bioshock to make it more marketable. They suck and work against the game for anyone who isn’t 6 years old…..but I played bioshock when I was 6 years old and without that dumbass arrow showing me the way I wouldn’t be hear having this discussion with you about whether this game can be classified as art and more Importantly whether it was ruined by the focus testing to turn it into a product. I don’t like the nose on the Mona Lisa, however the color palette gives me a feeling like no other. This is the combat of bioshock 1 and the feeling of existing in rapture. I’d say if you really wanted to a picky asshole which I am, developers should be able to sell the plane sequence into the bathosphere section for 60 dollars, because if it didn’t have the combat or bad ending of the full game it would be a timeless experience worthy of replaying to get the feeling of awe and wonder that short section provides. But it brings us back to the reality of how video games are made and why the weak counter argument of you recognizing you can’t make games good is weak. Kevin Levine and his team could barely scrape together a functioning title but in the end you got one, one that really tried to be different in the time it was created while still conforming to what they believed they had as to not literally go bankrupt lose their jobs and whatever else terrible things would occur, it seems you have bigger beef with capitalism than with Kevin Levine and friends choice to make something that ur nan or ur 6yr old brother could play. my question to you is if they retroactively decided to fix these issues you brought up and made the game more timeless would it be art then or is that pandering to the hardcore audience of gamers? Interesting video I’ll give you a like for the algorithm.
@greatestgamer00Күн бұрын
Tell em. Tell em. This video is greatestgamer aproved
@thebagg4553Күн бұрын
I love this game’s story, music, feel, and its deeper messages but as far as gameplay goes I would get so bored before I could actually beat the whole game and never put much thought into why, but I think you hit the nail on the head. I’ve always hated the huge focus on accessibility that these Titans of the industry have when developing games. games are not movies they don’t happen unless you act and Similar too a book you actually have to put in effort to get something out of it. That’s why it’s so confusing how these developers feel like they need put the player on auto pilot so much
@jigsaw_315617 сағат бұрын
i agree with this differentiation between art and a product. the moment you start to deviate from what _you_ want to make to what _other people_ would've wanted you to make you start to chip away at the sole creativity of the creative process itself. it's not the differentiation where you can clearly tell which is which but it's the one that draws the line at what matters. as for Bioshock it is 100% without a doubt ruined by trying to appeal to normies. the "you're just like a videogame player" narrative hook is kewl but it only works if you don't have mission popups at the second part of the game. oops, sorry, can't leave out those, little timmy might get lost. the miniscule difference between saved sisters' adam and harvested one doesn't make sense? oops, sorry, can't have the right moral choice be less rewarding, little timmy might think he's getting unfairly punished! and so on and so forth, etc, etc. very much like Skyrim that was/is being praised by tourists who didn't play Morrowind Bioshock is being praised by those same casuals who didn't touch Deus Ex.
@rat1223Күн бұрын
I think you highly over-estimate your understanding of what constitutes art. Also you lost me when you made it obvious that you're among the "correct way to play" crowd. Not everyone enjoys games exactly the way you do. Ever consider playing System Shock 2 if that's what you want to play, instead of BioShock?
@JackFrankONeill13 сағат бұрын
I've played the System Shock games and the themes don't really match up to BioShock's. I think you want to seem smart and have a unique opinion even if you gotta lie to do so. Do better.
@xsubzerox341218 сағат бұрын
No art is timeless, those that are remembered and preserved are just the lucky few. There are artists that specifically make their art temporary, to make it special "you shouldve been there to see it" kinda thing. So with gacha or online games, i dont respect the design elements of those types of games but they are indeed art because the intent and vision of those games, that is to cater to a specific kind of audience, are realised. (Not appealing to everyone when u make a cringy looking anime game, u have to choose the audience) Making a product and makimg art do not have to be mutually exclusive. Anyway non of criticisms u point to bioshock as a game are invalid, infact most of them like vita chambers and arrow marker and whole story dropping of a cliff after andrew ryan. Those are all common and well known complaints of the game. Tho u are the first person ive ever heard call the open portion of the game boring Personally me i loved the mediocre gunplay, it made it feel so different from other shooters and was a great introduction to the immersive sim games for me even itself was could barely count as one. Overall tho like most great games, its not what the game does bad but rather those elements that shine through despite them that people rememebr them for. And bioshock will be remembered as a product and an art
@fossfoxКүн бұрын
Art as a term does not denote quality, it just describes things For examplw, gachashit games ARE art, they're just varying degrees of bad art
@rat1223Күн бұрын
Your stance is bad. All art is a product, as it's produced by people. To the right person, any product might be a work of art. You could create artwork not knowing it is a product that will be bought and sold long after you're gone. The agreed upon value of a piece of artwork doesn't qualify or disqualify it as art, it's just a byproduct of capitalism that better artwork tends to sell more or at a higher price.
@quarreneverett476714 сағат бұрын
What was that robot valkeryie game u showh at beginningm robot valkerye? Shooter.valkeryir? Anyways another issue with mass effect 2 was watered down paragon system In masseffect 2 is good guy bad guy. When in firdt game it was more about doing things a different way. Me 1 is better honestly. Alao the timing of 2 was after 1 had time to start getting attention even tho the first one got some bad reviews it developed a fan folowing When 2 came out it got better reviews. This was more during the time when you had to go out in person to decide what game to get
@retroman325217 сағат бұрын
Humm... I'm too old and world weary to buy into contemporary dichotomyes, so instead, let's ask the following. For who is this, to whom does it speak to? Would you approve of said person? Once yo start asking this, you learn words are more layered than even the speaker realized.
@captainhowlerwilson508Күн бұрын
What you are saying is not facts, it is just your own version of how this game was made and I think you are wrong on so many fronts. Ken Levine at the time didn’t make this game just for profit, he wanted to change the FPS genre up and remove the idea of just following linear paths which you do in almost all FPS games nowadays.
@Void-KnullКүн бұрын
if that was his goal, he failed utterly
@captainhowlerwilson508Күн бұрын
@ No he didn’t. He did everything he could to give the player a lot of freedom even if there is an objective in sight.
@electricsabbath996Күн бұрын
bro, if he wanted to make fps less linear he was about 10 years too late. FPS games from the very begining where designed by DnD nerds who designed maps like you would a dungeon, Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, Hexen/Heretic, all if these games had levels that you had to explore and navigate your way around, as far as freedoom in a first person games goes i can name at least two that came before and did a much better job, thief and deus ex.
@captainhowlerwilson508Күн бұрын
@@electricsabbath996 He is certainly not the first one to do it, but I think he did what he could to make something of his own. Regardless, I don’t agree with you at all. This game has some of the most impressive level design I have ever seen in a first-person-shooter game and nothing at all felt linear outside of the story.
@reyjimenzКүн бұрын
Dude thinks he's special cause he loves System Shock 2.
@rat1223Күн бұрын
He sounds young enough to be System Shock 2's child
@daserfomalhaut98092 күн бұрын
I knew I wasnt crazy for hating this overrated trilogy all these years. But people absolutely dogpile you for going against the grain. Prey '17 is no SS2, but it's everything BioShock wishes it could have been. Nice explanation of art vs products btw.
@Mal_Freeman0451Күн бұрын
Prey is absolutely better than SS2 as an immersive sim. Prey built upon everything good in SS2.
@RushHourWeekendКүн бұрын
Prey is a weird one. It’s better than Bioshock, though you definitely need to turn off waypoints to make the exploration feel worthwhile, but the enemy variety is really bad. There’s also way too much loading between zones, which is probably my biggest complaint. It’s hard to appreciate the interconnected level design when there’s so much loading.
@daserfomalhaut9809Күн бұрын
@@RushHourWeekend Yeah, it's not perfect, but it has a lot of heart for a game like that released in 2017 from a big studio. I'm shocked Bethesda even greenlit it considering they've been routinely watering down their own shit for 15 years at that point.
@monsieursp00ky44Күн бұрын
There's a ton of problems with this video but one I haven't seen addressed yet is your last spiel against binary moral choices in games. It feels like it was lifted from a video made in 2010, in fact I remember watching those at that exact time bemoaning that point. The reason it's largely jarring to me is because you're ranting about a problem that is already solved. Your examples of Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 2 are remembered as a joke and a compromised game respectively, hardly the incredible displays of moral choice you think those filthy plebeians see them as. In a world where Baldur's Gate 3 and Disco Elysium are some of the most lauded games in the industry, as well as citing the opinion of critics in a world where legacy media journalistic opinion is mocked, not curated, your complete lack of knowledge on how the industry has changed since 2007 shows either your inexperience, your apathy, or your deceit, possibly all three.
@RushHourWeekend21 сағат бұрын
Moral choices in games were not a problem to be solved. Planescape Torment released in 1999 and had more thought-provoking dialogue choices than most games released since. You can cherry pick modern examples and say they “solved” the problem, just as I can cherry pick a game released around the same time as Bioshock that handled morality better - Dragon Age Origins.
@jhonayo4887Күн бұрын
I will never agree that anything that Jack Pollock made was nothing but slop. Most overrated "artist" of all time.
@RushHourWeekendКүн бұрын
Funnily enough, I read an article where one of Pollock’s paintings was damaged during transport, so he patched it up. Someone bought the painting and told Pollock it looked off, so Pollock repainted the entire thing saying “he’ll never know,” and the buyer wound up enjoying the new painting even more. I don’t think we can ever fully understand his drip technique paintings, but I think his early work is pretty good. More than anything, the fact that his work is still talked about almost a century later is proof that there’s some credit to his art, even if most of it isn’t an impressive display of skill.
@reyjimenzКүн бұрын
Games are products
@Bardengraf1Күн бұрын
Well done! I feel the same way about dishonored as well. Keep in mind Arkane themselves said it was inspired by thief and deus ex yet none of the actually systems were included. It’s clear Arkane wanted to dumb down for a new audience with a catchy character design, mediocre level design, poorly developed skill trees that are outdone by their own previous work from dark messiah that was considered mediocre at launch (I prefer it to dishonored). Dishonored is even worse than Bioshock that it’s aesthetic look like reused shittier half life two assets.
@RushHourWeekend21 сағат бұрын
I think Dark Messiah is probably Arkane’s best work; just simple fun. In regards to Dishonored, I don’t really like it. It feels like they wanted to make Thief, but with two ways to play it: sneakily or action-packed, not understanding that the sneaking is completely broken by the blink power, and the action-packed approach defeats the point of the open-ended game design. Thief works because combat is deliberately clunky, you deal almost no damage, enemies have a ton of health and they can easily swarm you. This forces you to take a stealthy approach, and every tool you’re provided aids with that mission. Play on the hardest difficulty and you’re not even allowed to kill anyone. Dishonored doesn’t work as a sneaking game because blink is overpowered, the sound design doesn’t even come close to Thief, and if I get caught I can easily nuke the entire room with my toolset - because it’s not game over if you get caught or kill enemies. It’s a game where the only thing stopping you from killing everyone is self-restraint; you want the “good” ending. In a way, I think the best thing about Dishonored is that it tests your ability to impose restrictions and adhere to those rules in order to make the game more enjoyable. The actual balance of the game is horrendous.
@Bardengraf111 сағат бұрын
@@RushHourWeekendcouldn’t have said it any better myself. The only thing I’d add is just how much atmosphere thief has in its world. Some of the missions are just haunting which dishonored could never reach. For a stealth game you require tension and believability in your world. Dishonored would’ve done much better if they approached it more like a mix between hitman and deus ex instead of claiming to be a thief sequel. Glad to see this video as well relayed a lot of my frustrations with the gaming industry.
@T456Nja9Kl2Күн бұрын
Pray your channel never takes off🙏🏿
@radiorah76820 сағат бұрын
You can’t say you’re experiencing art if changes were made to make it appeal to your sensibilities. A dev’s primary responsibility should always be to make a game they would want to play themselves. Let the chips fall where they may after that. Bioshock is one of my favorite game series. I'm shocked but also not surprised that it is a product of compromise. Focus Testing is definitely something that has been plaguing the industry since the seventh generation which is when Bioshock was released. Many franchises pursued accessibility as the 7th gen. propelled gaming into broader audiences. As a result, short, replayable games that are tightly designed slowly fell out of favor. Many arcade and traditional gaming genres became niche unless you were a FPS or one of the Wii Simulation Games (Wii Sports, Wii Play, etc.). They'll always be exceptions, but this was definitely when video games became more of a product rather than an art form. Even the color palette of many games from that era were quite monotone. I think that's why Bioshock stood out to me so much although I never played any other immersive sims. Great video Rush! While I love the Bioshock series, you definitely showed me some aspects from a game design and gameplay perspective that could have been improved. I will definitely have to try out the System Shock remake.
@TheDeadAlewivesКүн бұрын
Damn, I've somehow found someone who agrees with me that Bioshock is massively overrated! Seriously, it's just DOOM with a pretty art deco skin thrown on it. Blow me..and Bioshock is considered a groundbreaking game.
@FordHoardКүн бұрын
Huh? Doom has no story at all. It's just "go into next room and shoot things and listen to metal music."
@TheDeadAlewivesКүн бұрын
It’s DOOM in its level design. “Grab key card to get into next corridor and then grab next keycard”. Also, if it needs specificity, I’m talking classic DOOM.
@Void-KnullКүн бұрын
@@TheDeadAlewives doom, but every time you fire a gun you regret it