Fokker DR1 vs Sopwith Camel turn performance in Rise of Flight

  Рет қаралды 17,787

Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles

Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 71
@gordonmcinnes8328
@gordonmcinnes8328 3 жыл бұрын
As I have said elsewhere, the Camel achieved MORE KILLS THAN ALL OTHER ALLIED TYPES 1,294 air-to-air kills. It is just a shame we didn't train pilots all too well back then. Also a fight is very rarely equal, context is everything. For example, historically the Germans were usually fighting in formation, defensively and to support local air superiority. Great to fidn you doing ww1 videos, would love to see the Bentley engine (150hp) Camel played. Mini Snipe?
@PaulLMF
@PaulLMF 6 жыл бұрын
Really interesting and useful advice on maintaining the Camel's turn. Btw I had no idea some pilots watch the plane behind as carefully as that.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
Hi Paul, thanks for commenting. Some of the top guys who are using track ir absolutely do this. It's a very effective tactic to use when changing direction in a low level turn fight. It works really well against the DR1 because it has a bigger blind spot there.
@20chocsaday
@20chocsaday 2 жыл бұрын
They even did that on special defensive flights during WW2. Not often, just enough to scare off an intruder.
@Allan_aka_RocKITEman
@Allan_aka_RocKITEman 2 жыл бұрын
FWIW: The type is not addressed in this video, but I only recently learned -- maybe in the last 10 to 12 years, or even LESS -- that Fokker fielded the D.VIII parasol wing _monoplane_ very late in the war. I always thought the D.VII was their last advanced fighter design.
@Allan_aka_RocKITEman
@Allan_aka_RocKITEman 2 жыл бұрын
@Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles >>> 👍👍
@tabsqc
@tabsqc 3 жыл бұрын
Greg no mention of gyroscopic effect on the Camel’s turn. It was dramatically different. The right turns I think were very snappy the left turns v slow especially with a Bentley engine with aluminium pistons.
@LordSandwichII
@LordSandwichII 3 жыл бұрын
Is that simulated in this game?
@RD2564
@RD2564 3 жыл бұрын
He went down like Dr.1 Werner Voss !!! Problem with this Dr.1 was it was slow so once it was in a fight, it was in the fight until the other guys decide to fly away. Verner found himself taking on numerous enemies and was finally ventilated by Reginald Hoidge before Arthur Rhys-Davids swooped in and put two long bursts into him to be sure he was good and dead, with the Dr.1 flipping inverted and diving in. Both those boys who put rounds into him were flying the SE.5. Rhys-Davids died a few weeks later because he was stupid and reckless but good Canadian boy Reginald Hoidge lived until 1963.
@iflycentral
@iflycentral 6 жыл бұрын
I never did like either of these planes. I'll take a Se.5a, Fokker D.VIIF, or Pfalz D.XII any day of the week. Good video.
@immortalme111
@immortalme111 6 жыл бұрын
Hi Greg, nice video and specs given on these two plane. I also believe (by experience) that the Camel can out turn the DR1 as demonstrated in this video - in a RIGHT-HAND turn that is. However I have found that the Camel cannot do this in a left-hand turn if the DR1 pilot is well practiced in left turning. Even against the best Camel pilots in ROF (including the one mentioned), I will lure them in a left-hand turn fight and that normally saves the day for me. The DR1's ability to flip over from the right-hand into a left-hand turn quicker than the Camel, together with diving below the firing line might save the DR1 pilot or he might take a few shots but can normally survive to finish the fight. Of course, experienced Camel pilots will rather break the turn fight to the left, gain height and enter into a vertical fight rather than to fight the DR1 in a left-hand turn. (This is with 15-20% fuel and full ammo load in DR1). I will practice these concepts with the Camel after viewing this video. (Immortal)
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
Hi Philip, it's certainly closer in a left turn, but ironically Camel pilots will often turn left to try and escape the DR1, probably because newer DR1 pilots have trouble changing direction. I do agree that in most cases the DR1 can win in a left turn. For those of you who haven't seen Philip's (immortal's) video, you should watch it right now if you fly the DR1 kzbin.info/www/bejne/mn6wZouCr9ion7c . GregHF
@notaire2
@notaire2 6 жыл бұрын
Interessanter Vergleich zwischen den zwei Meisterstücke im ersten Weltkrieg. Danke!
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
Thanks notaire. I see these two airplanes as THE classic matchup.
@notaire2
@notaire2 6 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your affirmative reply. They were true masterpieces of WWI representing Britain and Germany respectively.
@Jesnah
@Jesnah 6 жыл бұрын
I must know the identity of this Dr.1 Pilot, who is this mysterious man? Cheers, Greg.
@zooropafly3972
@zooropafly3972 6 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this Greg, very enlightening in a few regards. Great job. Only issue would be I didn't think the Camel was fastest. SALUTE !
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
Hi zooropa! I promise you the Camel is slightly faster than the DR1. It has a higher maximum speed in the official manual, and in direction comparisons it's proven to be slightly faster with equal loads. S! Greg HF
@sugarnads
@sugarnads 5 жыл бұрын
Less drag and mostly higher horsepower engines. The 110 hp oberusel was a nail by then. If you had a 130hp leclerget or 150hp bentley you had a definite advantage.
@DJones476
@DJones476 3 жыл бұрын
Greg, Buddy! The gruesomeness at 6:30 is the reason why you _NEVER_ reverse your turn (like the DR.1 did there) unless you are 100% sure your opponent will overshoot your current position!
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 3 жыл бұрын
That's exactly right, I have a video about when the reverse the turn in which I used footage from Sheriff, Central, and Growling. It doesn't get many views though.
@DJones476
@DJones476 3 жыл бұрын
@@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles Did you know that the air/air tactics we can read about easily today were once classified 'secret'. We only have access to the declassified material. WWI dogfighting tactics were classified at the time they were developed, and this is why if you read the autobiographies of Rickenbacker, Bishop, Collishaw, etc, the pilots don't really go into much detail about the specific tactics they used. This is especially true of Billy Bishop, who wrote his book in 1918-1919. In those years, many, if not most of the specific air/air tactics would still have been protected information.
@terryvanicelli267
@terryvanicelli267 6 жыл бұрын
Fun video. Im jealous of your skill set. Two questions. 1.) Does this sim take engine torque into account (maybe favoring the Camel). 2.) Can the Dreidecker escape by outclimbing the Camel (my understanding is that rate of climb was a major argument for adopting the DrI)?
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
This sim, which is pretty old now, does an ok job of taking torque into account, but it's not the torque you are thinking of, it's the gyroscopic precision which is often incorrectly called torque. The torque in a Camel or DR1 is actually quite low, the gyroscopic forces are huge, and they are taken into account to an extent. The DR1 can escape by climbing in some cases.
@danceswithtraffic8147
@danceswithtraffic8147 6 жыл бұрын
I lived opposite the old sopwith factory in Kingston upon Thames, (S.W. greater London, England), I have an affinity with them due to this local history. love the camel (and the pup) aesthetically speaking, (lol) id choose a camel over the Se5a anyday :-)
@sugarnads
@sugarnads 5 жыл бұрын
Dances with traffic absolutely old boy. Damned glasshouses. Couldnt outturn a camel on its best day. Did yu see the tv show in the 1980s where they interviewed TOM Sopwith and landed a Harrier on his front lawn? Smashing.
@DJones476
@DJones476 3 жыл бұрын
Yeah, no kidding! The S.E.5 was uglier than... Hmm... I have no comparison!
@jimh.5286
@jimh.5286 6 жыл бұрын
From what I've heard, the DR1 triplane was built partly in response to the Sopwith triplane. But the Sopwith triplane had good visibility, while the DR1 design ended up with poor visibility, worse than the visibility from the Camel. I know, this discussion is mainly about turn performance...my bad. Although, what good is turn performance if you can't see anything?
@jeadie8131
@jeadie8131 6 жыл бұрын
For WWI planes, what are the factors that make a plane a better gun platform? Effect of recoil on control? # of guns - 1 or 2? having the guns fire through the prop vs over it, etc?
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
In my view it's the stability of the plane and the solidity of the mounts as well as the guns themselves.
@kolbpilot
@kolbpilot 6 жыл бұрын
"Those popping little firecrackers." Bear in mind the Fokker is Oberursel powered while the Sopwith had at least three different powerplants. Here a pilot is voicing his distaste for the Clerget powered Camels.
@Ebergerud
@Ebergerud 6 жыл бұрын
Heavens - memories. I flew in one of the first online sims - I think it was run Genie or prodigy: think about 1990. Unless flying with a bud when we'd do doubles with DRIs, I flew Camels or sometimes Spad XIIIs :a decent ride for a "B" grade player - dove like a brick and let you leave the premises. (In 1919 Rickenbacker was commissioned by the Army Air Corps to go to Europe and fly every plane he could to aid the Air Corps to build a decent fighter of their own - much egg on US face concerning aircraft construction during WWI. He chose the Spad XIII - emphasizing it's great speed in a dive. Come to think about it, US WWII fighters almost all had excellent dive capabilities - even late model 38s.) What I remember about the Camel was the huge torque - a real trick to bank to the left. As I understand it, the Camel and Triplane went out together. In the huge engagements often found in 1918, both suffered from low critical altitude. In 1918 the RAF increasingly employed mixed formations and put Camels low (8-10,000 feet) with SE5s or, if available, Snipes above (14,000 plus). The most advanced analysis of real world Camel vs DRI I've seen is strongly pro-Camel. The Tripe had the "slip turn" that amazed some allied pilots (think Werner Voss' last fight against eight RAF aces) and excellent initial climb rate. It was, however, slow and dove very poorly which hurt it against any allied plane. The Camel had very good visibility and the DRI was very poor in that regard - very bad news in a multi-plane fight. The Germans built about 350 Tripes - it was built in response to the Sopwith Tripe, and by the time it was the DRI was flying Camels had replaced most Sop Tripes. But in good hands it was arguably a better plane than the Albatross V or Pflaz III. We do know that Richthoven had tested the D. VII and liked it a lot. He would have received the first. The Camel was in service longer than wanted by the RAF, but the Snipe was a difficult build and proper engines for the SE5 were not widely available until 1918. (The French built them and wanted them in Spad XIIIs.) When engines were there, the SE5 became the RAF "top gun" although Camels may have had more kills overall because there were more of them in late 1917 and early 1918 when the air war was entering a fierce stage when German planes began to fly over allied lines to support the "Kaiser-Schlacht" offensives cooked up by Ludendorff. Ironically, rather like the fate of the P-47 when displaced by the over-all superior P-51, the Camel ended up doing a lot of ground support in 1918 - a dangerous proposition to German troops on the move or any RAF pilot. It doesn't fit the image, but ground support was the last job desired by any pilot that wanted to survive the war. It's amazing in retrospect that P-51s were being encouraged to do ground attack after leaving bombers they'd been escorting. But the young will live forever, right?
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
Hi Eric, thanks for your detailed post. I am pretty sure the sim you were flying in 1990 was Dynamix's Red Baron. I flew that one as well, in fact, I still have it.
@Ebergerud
@Ebergerud 6 жыл бұрын
Negative there. You bet I had Red Baron, but that was a stand alone. (I'd save every mission so if something bad happen I'd fly it again. Got a 140 kills one campaign flying under the name Cecil Lewis, author of the great WWI air combat memoir "Sagittarius Rising.") The sim I flew was online. I think the first was was "Air Warrior" but Genie charged $6/hr to play it. It was great for the time (dial-up modems) and I played it a lot when the price dropped heavily. (One of the players was Robert Shaw, an instructor at the "Top Gun" program and author of the splendid "Fighter Combat". Call name: Maus. He wasn't actually all that good, but he wasn't on that much.) I can't track down the name of the WWI sim - maybe because it was one part of a larger "community" - people played cards, chess etc, but the flight sim was the high light. You could play one vs one or two vs two. It was a gas when it worked - although crashes were more common there than in real life.
@WildBillCox13
@WildBillCox13 6 жыл бұрын
Interesting.
@kevincarrucan5328
@kevincarrucan5328 6 жыл бұрын
Hello I don't play this digital game, but I am interested to know if the game designers include the influence of rotary engine torque with the Camel and Dr1 upon the rate of turn? Kind regards, Kevin C
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
Yes, they did.
@drmoss_ca
@drmoss_ca 5 жыл бұрын
The camel was so sensitive to the rotary that it experienced gyroscopic precession, with control inputs having an unexpected 90º action. Highly recommend reading V.M. Yeates 'Winged Victory' - Yeates was a camel pilot in 46 Sqd. and knew what he was talking about.
@jonskowitz
@jonskowitz 5 жыл бұрын
One of the tricks you can do to a Dr.I is to pull them into a climbing-left turn. They'll stall and the gyroscopic procession will keep them bobbing straight up for a time; long enough to turn-around and wack 'im ;)
@jamesmcdonald2680
@jamesmcdonald2680 5 жыл бұрын
I came here to recommend that book! It is my favorite book. Yeates' death in obscurity was a great tragedy.
@neoconshooter
@neoconshooter 5 жыл бұрын
Dear Greg;I would love to hear/watch your thoughts on the P-38 as one of my relatives flew them in WW-II. I have flown the P-38 hundreds of hours in various flight games and sims, but as a amateur Private Pilot and BOOM and ZOOM kind of guy I do not have the experience to do the kind of in depth analysis I find in all of your Videos.Sincerely,Stewart.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 4 жыл бұрын
I do want to cover the P-38, and I will. It's just such a complex plane that I need to cover other topics first.
@rybuds47
@rybuds47 5 жыл бұрын
Is this sim worth getting? I only fly dcs so far. Cheers Greg!
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 5 жыл бұрын
They have an updated version of it now called Flying Circus. I haven't tried it yet, but as far as I can tell, it's great.
@paxwallacejazz
@paxwallacejazz 6 жыл бұрын
Go Snoopy
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
I understand that reference.
@sugarnads
@sugarnads 5 жыл бұрын
Go Biggles.
@dubsy1026
@dubsy1026 4 жыл бұрын
Wilks flew a better plane
@ronmoore5827
@ronmoore5827 6 жыл бұрын
Does altitude have any effect on the turn performance or does it remain constant?
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
In real life, altitude has a large effect on turn performance for a number or reasons, first true air speed is higher for a given indicated speed. Also power decreases making it more difficult and often impossible to maintain enough speed to get maximum turn performance. You may want to watch this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6OYe2yOaNmrsJY
@johnkendall6962
@johnkendall6962 6 жыл бұрын
Altitude also influences stall speed although at the low heights fought in WW1 I'm not sure if it really made a difference
@SCYTHE2525
@SCYTHE2525 6 жыл бұрын
Ever try War Thunder, Greg? The realistic battles are quite fun and the historic modeling is better than I'd ever imagined it could be. Not perfect but they are getting there. MomentaryHero is my handle if you ever need a wing. I do very well and have been playing since 2013.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
I need to get my wife to buy me a new computer to handle the newer sims.
@SCYTHE2525
@SCYTHE2525 6 жыл бұрын
That's always nice but if that is how Rise of Flight looks and runs on your computer I have no doubt you can play War Thunder at 60 FPS at a detail level that very likely would surprise you. The game engine is efficient and runs well. I do remember IL-2 Cliffs of Dover getting slammed hard for running so poorly even on the most powerful computers when it came out years ago. Not War Thunder. Just last night a fella was gushing about how great a sunset scenario looked on his 'potato laptop'.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
Don't tell my wife that! How am I going to argue for a new computer!
@putrid.p
@putrid.p 3 жыл бұрын
Did this type of prolonged turn-fight happen in real life?
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 3 жыл бұрын
Absolutely it did.
@bradmiller9507
@bradmiller9507 5 жыл бұрын
We didn't get CAMELS, we Boom& Zoom S.P.A D.'s... said PaPaw... You Have broad Horizons ...Sir GREG!!! FLY till ya DIE!!! ( or Neiports) Viva la Esqudrille... & Tailwinds Too.
@Helicopterpilot16
@Helicopterpilot16 5 жыл бұрын
Moro made me rage quit.... Little bastard...
@sugarnads
@sugarnads 6 жыл бұрын
Camel had vickers guns not damned hun spandaus.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
Yeah, but everybody likes the spandaus, I even like saying "spandaus" it sounds cool.
@sugarnads
@sugarnads 6 жыл бұрын
Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles youre a damned hun. And its aeroplanes. Not airplanes. Thats like saying an FW190 had a merlin engine, coz everyone likes merlins. Ridiculous. Next youll be calling bren guns mg34s. Harumph.
@kieranh2005
@kieranh2005 6 жыл бұрын
Dellacondan BrenG34?
@sugarnads
@sugarnads 5 жыл бұрын
kieranh2005 lol i didnt see this before. Good one
@sugarnads
@sugarnads 5 жыл бұрын
Sean m tally ho old boy, im australian so lets call it the commonwealth viewpoint 😉🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
@ericmcquisten
@ericmcquisten 6 жыл бұрын
How is "Rise of Flight"? .... I ask because it has a fairly bad overall-rating on Steam.... but this video makes me think its worth a try. I used to play War Thunder, but had to eventually give it up, because the game is no longer recognizable from what it started out as, and has just become a money-grabbing piece of Russian propaganda, with clear prejudice against German tanks (tank mode) and American aircraft (aircraft mode).
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 6 жыл бұрын
Rise of Flight is good, but pretty old. I hear the new game, IL2 Flying Circus is good, but haven't tried it yet.
@ericmcquisten
@ericmcquisten 6 жыл бұрын
Thanks, I will have to check it out
@republicofaviators4589
@republicofaviators4589 5 жыл бұрын
Right? War thunder is such trash now they keep neglecting aircraft. I myself am an F86 sabre pilot a good one as well, but I want to fly the sabre in DCS although I need a PC first. That's the only reason I play war thunder its the only air combat sim on ps4.
@bobbrooks80
@bobbrooks80 5 жыл бұрын
You need to give up kid games and join the real world.
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles
@GregsAirplanesandAutomobiles 5 жыл бұрын
What?
IL2 Realism Test FW 190 Pylon Turns and an IRL German memorial
10:08
Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles
Рет қаралды 17 М.
P51 Mustang Turn Radius vs.
13:19
Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles
Рет қаралды 106 М.
小丑和白天使的比试。#天使 #小丑 #超人不会飞
00:51
超人不会飞
Рет қаралды 46 МЛН
Cute
00:16
Oyuncak Avı
Рет қаралды 11 МЛН
Why was the BF109K faster than the P51D? MW 50!
24:21
Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles
Рет қаралды 575 М.
DOGFIGHTS: The Red Baron | Rise Of Flight Short Film
25:21
Ace Rawlings
Рет қаралды 876 М.
Messerschmitt BF 109 Supercharger Drive System
7:38
Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles
Рет қаралды 170 М.
The Wright Brothers DID Invent the Airplane
47:49
Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles
Рет қаралды 215 М.
Learn to fly the Sopwith Camel
5:41
The Air Combat Tutorial Library
Рет қаралды 19 М.
Fokker Dr1 Action-2 Rise of Flight
19:58
Jasta 18 Raben
Рет қаралды 1,3 М.
P-51 vs. 109 Drag, The Truth!
30:10
Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles
Рет қаралды 253 М.
John Boyd Aerial Attack Study Energy Maneuverability and more
22:44
Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles
Рет қаралды 101 М.
Fokker Dr.1 Triplane - In The Movies
5:34
Johnny Johnson
Рет қаралды 81 М.
How Did They Miss THIS?! The Incredible Story of TNT Flight 325N
45:37