Food Forest tour, and a small discussion on hydroponics and permaculture - Late fall, 2023.

It's been a while, due to illness, but we're back at it.
This spring, I mentioned that I would try to take the same pathway through the food forest, pond, wildflower hill and old man walking trail, so that you could see the entire property, and see the same sections at various times of the year. Today we continue that tour-experiment. Let me know if you like that idea, and like these videos.
I also end the video on a discussion of small scale hydroponics (and other such things) and if they belong in permaculture. If they are "organic", or "sustainable". This is just a line of thinking that I had, because I've seen this topic brought up in various other locations before. I.e. "Hydroponics can't be permaculture because there's a pump that draws electricity", etc. Or "hydroponics can't be organic". It doesn't help that both the terms "permaculture" and "organic" have various meanings to various people. But I give my thoughts at the end of the video. Let me know your thoughts in the comments!
I hope you enjoyed this tour, and I hope you've had a wonderful and rewarding growing season! Much love to my permie family!
Keith
______________________
Want to support the work we do by becoming a member? Check out our membership program here: / @canadianpermaculturel...
Or help me plant trees directly through Patreon by becoming a Patron: www.patreon.com/user?u=15912954
Buying seeds and want to support us at no cost to you? Use this West Coast referral link: www.westcoastseeds.com/?rfsn=...
permaculturelegacy.wixsite.co...
Affiliate link for Garden planner:
Canada: amzn.to/3NoJysF
US: amzn.to/3oNsrGv
You can now also find Canadian Permaculture Legacy on Odysee here: odysee.com/@CanadianPermacult...
Odysee will automatically import any videos from here, and is a blockchain streaming service - so once my videos are there, they are there forever. Unhackable. Permissionless.
Channels we support:
Moving to the country to start a new life. Young Family trades sodgrass for a horse farm over at Barn Boots and Country Roots: / @barnbootsandcountryroots
For great recipes, cooking, storing, canning, and growing tips, check out Gardening in the North: / @gardeninginthenorth
Music credits:
Epidemic sound: www.epidemicsound.com/referra...
Closer by Jay Someday | / jaysomeday
Music promoted by www.free-stock-music.com
Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License
creativecommons.org/licenses/...

[@CMSCK]

I have 1/2 acre to plant on in the suburbs. I am freaking out the neighbours because my food forest have attracted huge garter snakes. I had a tarp down to kill off weeds and grass to make a new growing area. The snakes are living under the tarp. Guess I will leave it in place lol!

[@dennispovloski8102]

I've never seen a paw paw before. When you have some fruit ready for harvest, can you show them off in a video? Thanks! Enjoying your permaculture adventure from Florida!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Oh absolutely I will be! I will do a taste-test video with the kids and Trish!

[@Double0pi]

Thank you for the note on hydroponics. That's always been my feeling as well, so it's nice to see that I'm not alone in that belief. Now that I live in the U.P. of Michigan, with its super-short growing season, I think hydroponics/indoor growing is going to have to be a major part of my life.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Absolutely!

[@julie-annepineau4022]

Pretty sure that small pale purple flower was a form of aster. Lots of them around here. You bush wacking thru the sunchokes and goldenrod gave me a laugh. Amazing how much everything grew up this summer with all the rain. Glad you're doing better!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

LOL

[@kaiyamorgulis2392]

Lovely tour and glad to hear you're feeling better! Would enjoy more of the hydroponics discussion, as well :) Definitely also enjoyed the product review for hydroponics, as living in a Toronto apartment doesn't afford much outdoor gardening space. Super helpful and I wouldn't worry too much about the reviews. If the products help you, they're probably also helpful for somebody else!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Awesome, thank you!

[@mybelovedchaos]

I'm glad you are feeling better!

[@ribbonwing]

One of the permaculture principles is 'value the marginal' - and I think there's a lot of marginal uses for hydroponic systems like the one covered last video. Several of them were pointed out - over wintering plants, getting an early start for growing plants, maybe growing something that can't otherwise make it in your zone or that there just isn't a good place for in your yard. I'd love some follow up videos on the subject, tell us how it works on an ongoing basis!

[@LatzeH]

I really wish you'd upload in 3k or 4k, but at the very least 1080p - I want to see all this in detail!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I just did some checking, it can often take a day or two to process the higher resolution videos. If you look back through my other videos, they have higher quality options. This video here will get processed (which happens on the KZbin side of things) over the next few days and the higher quality options will be available. For example, a video I did just a day ago already has the HD options available.

[@peterroberts999]

Glad you're feeling better and thanks for the update. I also agree it's good to have conversation about the place of e.g. hydroponics. I have gone a slightly different route for indoor growing over the winter months and embraced microgreens like pea shoots. There is the energy input of a grow light but compared to the energy in purchased food it's a big win. I like this and some salad greens growing in pots of compost rather than hydroponics because I can create the input of compost myself rather than buying in nutrients for hydro, so it seems a little more sustainable. Nothing should be ruled out though so looking forward to seeing how you get on with it!

[@Growinginontario]

The Chicago hardy fig I planted along the south side of the house is loving that spot. After dying to the ground , It grew to 7 feet and just started to fruit, not enough time to ripen though. I will be wrapping and insulating the stems to try to keep the stems alive this winter.🤞 I also planted one in the south side of my garden shed which is only 2-3 feet tall. microclimates make a huge difference for growing figs in colder climates

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

100%

[@growinginportland]

Glad to hear you’re feeling better. Thanks for the tour man. I wish I had your problem with all that fruit but give me a few years and then I’ll I’ll be able to show some awesome videos. All my best.

[@mvbelinskiy]

hydro is most often about mineral fertilisers and juggling with dozens of different bottles (micro macro nutrient, pH adjusters, root protectors) to achieve good results. In my experience application of organics in hydroponics require very high maintenance of the system as organics tend to clog up the equipment and build up everywhere. Well the upside of hydro of course is very high speed and yields and ability to precisely control the growing environment but amount of problems that I see like dependency on source of special fertilisers and additives, limited horizontal scaling (assuming you're doing it alone), financial investments (electricity, growing lights and other equipment) outweighs the purpose. So you have to grow something with very high ROI and make it profitable. As always, big thanks for your videos.

[@alalmaoui5212]

Gorgeous place and set up. Congratulations!!!!!!!

[@catharinephoto]

Thanks for the great video! My lamb.s quarters seed structure looks really different than yours. I hope it’s really lambs quarters!

[@mayb.wright509]

Thanks for this video. BTW, the purple daisy-looking plant [27:50] is a wild native "New England aster" (symphyotrichum novaeangliae). I love asters as they are a late-season bloomer to support the bees into autumn. There's also a white "wood aster" that tolerates dry shade. Wild asters can be rather invasive, and because of this, I went out to buy a perennial cultivar that is more compact. Only two beaten up and tired perennial asters were left, but tons of annual asters. What struck me was the bees were all over the half-dead perennials, but nowhere to be seen on the annuals. hmmmm....won't be buying annual asters any time soon. lol On another topic, I have a QUESTION: I discovered West Coast Seeds because of your channel. If I buy anything off their site, is there something I can key in to ensure you are compensated for this affiliation? Thanks so much! Blessings to you and yours.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Cheers!

[@melanieroscoe5720]

Thanks for commenting on your creeping Charlie! I have it starting to work its way in to my new food forest beds, good to know I should be pulling that back. It’s *everywhere* in my lawn so I am unlikely to get rid of it, but I’ll try to keep it out of the beds.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I may do a reset sheet mulch in that area. It's a really hard plant to get control of, because if you try pulling it out, you will likely just propagate more. Mints will be mints.

[@melanieroscoe5720]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy I was thinking about sheet mulching back from the edges, so this reinforces that idea.

[@canadajim]

If using solar for heating, consider a solar thermal-mass system. Cheaper, and more efficient.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Totally agree. Paul Wheaton has some design plans for anyone that wants something formal... but you can probably do some youtube digging to find some good designed. Verge permaculture has a few videos from about 7 years ago that go into a bit of detail.

[@CMSCK]

I have such a problem with creeping Charley. It’s in my strawberries too plus around my rhubarb and haskaps. Today I put all of my shredded paper around my plants and woodchips on top.

[@jerryhoefs5803]

Hi Keith, I've been doing hydroponics for 8 years-both NFT and Kratky. Being in Wisconsin I do hydroponics mostly in the winter in my basement. I grow beets, lettuce, and kale. But with my outdoor gardens I try to do no till, compost, cover crops, biochar etc. My concern is that hydroponics lacks the biology found in the soil and that my hydroponic crops are less nutritious. I sometimes think that research leans too much toward minutia and not enough toward wholistic benefits from the environment. So, even though hydroponics meets N-P-K and micro-nutrient requirements we sometimes overlook the benefits of enzymes produced by the biology in the soil and how it interacts with gut flora. Thoughts?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Totally agree. If I have a choice between food grown in a healthy soil web, or food grown with hydroponics, I'll choose soil grown food every time. But just to be clear, that's not the choice I was talking about here. I'm talking about someone in an apartment growing food and learning how to do it, versus buying food from a grocery store. In that case, I'll be pushing for learning to grow food, every single time. Hope that clears up my intention there. But yes, I agree completely.

[@annburge291]

Hydroponic and plants grown in soil with fungi have a completely different nutritional profile. It's common to use salts dissolved in water with hydroponics. One could use fish pond water or diluted worm juice as the nutrients but this is rare. The problem with salts and lack of fungi as natural filters, the plants take up excessive amounts of heavy metals that naturally come in the actual salt or your water supply. Yes the amounts are small, but if you are eating hydroponic food long term as in Dubai these excesses start showing up in people's fat and organs. When plants are partnered with fungi in the soil, the heavy metals are filtered out with the fungi. Using NPK fertilizer with plants grown in dirt is technically growing plants hydroponically. People often mention the lack of nutrients, but they totally gloss over the excessive amounts of aluminium, lead, arsenic

[@annburge291]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eH28gKSqgLmSqqcsi=YbLgFkf3xmvJUWHx

[@doinacampean9132]

Creeping Charlie is an incredible medicinal herb - look it up - harvest for tea and say goodbye to colds and the like.

[@4thbrooker]

Thanks for a lovely tour. What is the name of the sea buckthorn that you said is so delicious? It was something like giskaia?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Chuyskaya Sea Buckthorn (Female)

[@4thbrooker]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy thanks!

[@leep4655]

👏👏👏🤝🙏

[@djmoulton1558]

My biggest concern with hydroponics is whether the fruit and veg have the same amounts and varieties of nutrients, phytochemicals, etc. as plants grown naturally. Plants grown in natural, organic soils have the benefits of mineral, fungal and bacterial inputs that hydroponic systems come nowhere near to providing. Hydroponic systems are engineered to provide plants with the bare minimum to survive. What use is that for human nutrition? I remember a long time ago a guy in Ottawa paid out of his own pocket to get nutritional studies on various veg grown in greenhouses versus field-grown (reported in Harrowsmith magazine). Greenhouse-specific varieties of, for example, commercial tomatoes, were proved to be far less nutritious compared to commercial varieties grown in the field. It boggles my mind that food scientists with all their fancy PH.D's actually need to be TOLD that food for humans should be nutritious. Also I wonder what the content levels of microplastics are in hydroponic foods. I know an increasing amount of microplastics are showing up in our soils and in field-grown foods. What are the levels in hydroponic plants grown in a 100% plastic grow environment? Makes me wonder...

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

My personal priority list would be: 1) Home grown food in healthy soil. 2) Buying from a local grower who uses regenerative methods. 3) Home grown food in hydroponics. 4) Buying from a local grower who doesn't use regenerative methods. 5) Buying from the store. The reason is both environmental ones, and also the points you mentioned. Definitely agree with all of it. However, since option 3 is above option 5, that's the reason that I believe it's a good thing and should be a core part of an urban permaculture setup, because often all other options but #5 are not available to them.

[@JoelKSullivan]

Great tour as always. The abundance of food for your family and the local wildlife is awesome! I totally agree about hydroponics. It definitely has a place in permaculture. I live in a townhouse and without my hydroponic system I wouldn't be able to grow nearly as much food. I grow as much as I can in my back patio but there's not a lot of space. I've been able to have fresh lettuce throughout winter as well. It massively cuts down on the energy being used if I had to buy it from a grocery store where it was grown in California.

[@barbarasimoes9463]

So lovely. With all of the rain we've had this summer, I feel like I'm garden-deprived. It's nice to spend time with you and your plants (and dogs). I'm eager for so much of my planting to start producing. With the late freeze, I didn't even get grapes. I won't be taking them for granted any more! I was so bummed. I am still getting enough strawberries to have them every morning for breakfast tossed with cottage cheese--it's like having cheesecake for breakfast...so I guess I shouldn't complain too much! Helpful to know that Creeping Charlie will smother it. That surprised me because of the height difference in the plants. I have some creeping in from the lawn. In early spring, I will now know to get out there and get it in check. I so diligently planted hosta all along the edge as a barrier, but it was not dense enough yet to prevent some grass and Creeping Charlie from sneaking by. I was hoping that the leaves would shade the soil enough that nothing would be able to grow underneath. Oh well. I've been looking for how to use some of the produce that is or will be growing. I have not been able to find a good cookbook that includes what might be grown in a food forest. If anyone out there has any recommendations, I would love to know of them. There are lots of annual vegetable type books, but not so many when it comes to things like kiwis or aronia or bush cherries, let alone, medlar or Cornelian cherries. Keith, if you think of it as you're filming, I'd so appreciate hearing how you process or use the things you grow. Even something like peaches--with all of the peach trees you pointed out, you must pull in bushels of them. Do you just skin and freeze them? Dehydrate? Juice? Freeze-dry? I know that you've discussed some of that, like with elderberries, but I don't know how to use lamb's quarters or sorrel. Just having a general idea would be so helpful. Salal? I was going to try growing potatoes for the first time this year, but time got away from me...and I really don't know how. People have lots of methods on line, but I don't have a real grasp on it. I gather that you're to keep mounding dirt up around the plant, but every one kind of glosses over that. I'm thinking that they must be sort of like a tomato that you are to plant deeply and it will root out from the stem, but to keep adding dirt just seems wrong! If you're looking for video ideas, maybe when it's spring again, a time-lapse video on how to grow potatoes?

[@annburge291]

With a food forest, there is a tendency to have bountiful harvests so it becomes important to know how much one can safely eat. For example, with any green leaf plant, you have to be aware how much you like to eat them and your sensitivity to oxalates. Oxalate crystals build up in soft tissue and joints and people detect their sensitivity with the feeling of nagging pain. So if you are sensitive to oxalates, you try to avoid eating large quantities of high oxalate foods like sorrel, lamb's quarter, amaranth leaves, prickly pear pads, spinach, rhubarb, sweet potato. When you eat dark green leaves, you tend to avoid eating them raw or stir fried and instead boil and drain them so that the oxalates are dissolved and discarded and then add something with calcium like dairy or tortillas to bind with the remaining oxalates. If you want to eat dark green leaves raw, having a dressing with citrus (lemon) or vinegar will also dissolve oxalate crystals.

[@annburge291]

The back to Eden method of growing potatoes is to place the seed potatoes under a thick layer of broken down woodchips (about eight inches) and just above the soil. This way the tap roots are in the soil, but the potatoes form in the woodchips and are extremely easy to harvest. If you have worms and other potato eating creatures like voles it's easier to grow in totes than the ground. Pick off the pretty potato flowers. One mounds up the soil if there is risk of light reaching the potatoes and turning them green.

[@barbarasimoes9463]

This all is very helpful. Thank you. Totes it is! I knew sorrel had oxalates, but I wasn't aware that sweet potatoes did. I wonder if this is why they always recommend that you boil, drain and boil again things like fiddleheads. Spinach has always made my teeth feel "stripped" and I don't like that sensation, so I usually always cook it, and even then, that same sensation happens. I can manage with making something like spinach souffle, but not a big spinach salad. I can't imagine going overboard with any of the things mentioned, but I sure do appreciate the advice. Again, thank you!@@annburge291

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

That's a great idea. I can go through the food forest, walk by each plant and then describe my favorite way to use it. What a great video idea. 👏

[@formidableflora5951]

Hydroponics DO have a place in food production, I think we can all agree. But I'll echo the concerns already expressed here by several other viewers--i.e. nutrition and microplastics. Growing food in living, complex soil better mimics a natural system. Perhaps a weird analogy for some folks, but similar to bottle-feeding vs. breastfeeding an infant--while the latter is not always possible for a variety of reasons, it does provide immeasurable holistic benefits. Maybe I'm nit-picking here, but If I did purchase "organic" produce (instead of growing it), I would prefer to know if it was grown in soil or grown hydroponically. On the topic of waiting for tops of root crops to die back before pulling--no need to wait for carrots the way you wait for potato tops to die back. Pull carrots when they're decently sized, tender and sweet, and still have a handle! A great crop to sow several times over the course of the growing season. Thanks for the shout-out.

[@annburge291]

The hydroponic systems that I prefer are the ones that are linked with fish tanks or use diluted worm juice extracts. The examples I've seen online have all been small scale. I tried briefly but it was a lot of work and I wanted to travel and the pecan flowers poisoned the fish before they were of any size. The government was trying to convince farmers to use hydroponics in Chihuahua to save water. Many tried, but they couldn't manage to have stable temperatures in green houses (usually too hot), and they struggled with inconsistent electrical supply. My neighbours tell me the attempt was an economic disaster.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I'm the opposite for my carrots. I find they taste sweetest after they have survived a few hard frosts, but before the ground fully freezes.

[@bradlafferty]

I like lambs quarters and use them in my garden for both food and as a sacrificial plant. Do you have any good recipes you use with yours? Thanks.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I just browse mine, and throw them in salads.

[@annburge291]

Loved the tour. I'm missing Lucy. How come she isn't following you around? Does she feel that you have abandoned her for cute Rosie? I'm not sure hydroponics is an easy solution for flat living. I think a wheeled multilayer grow tower for the balcony and a high shelf with microgreens could fit into the flat where I am staying if I could convince my daughter in law to abandon her spider plants. Microgreens grow more quickly and have more phytochemicals than hydroponic plants. Anything like pumps and lights would add to the already problem of excessive light and sounds in inner city living.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Haha no, Lucy follows me everywhere still, just maybe not today. There must have been people out walking on the road.

[@benjaminbusiek4723]

What is your method for tracking harvest times in the calendar app you mentioned?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Anytime anything of note happens, I just make a caldendar event in my phone with a yearly repeat. So for example, "Hazelnuts all gone, 2019". So when it comes time for hazelnut season, I have 4-5 instances of "hazelnuts gone" for each year, so that I can go out and get them before the squirrels get them all. They will all disappear in 1 day out of the blue. This year, they were all gone two weeks before my earliest "hazelnuts all gone" reminder.

[@angelbmann3531]

Love your videos, I was wondering, do you think pawpaws would grow in Manitoba? Where I live the growing zone is 2b-3b, I read pawpaws are hardy to 5, but sometimes there are ways to „cheat“ a bit, I was wondering if you have ideas?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I would say, close to zero percent chance. The only way would be a heated greenhouse, and that wouldn't really be in line with permaculture ethics, to spend so much energy on one fruit. I'd just recommend growing more appropriate plants. Sorry for the bad news :(

[@angelbmann3531]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy yeah that’s what I thought, thanks for the answer.

[@romeowhiskey4034]

I have a few acres for my food forest. Got to ask how many trees and plants do you buy every year?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

It varies a ton, less each year for sure. My first year I bought probably 100+. Now, 7 years later I pick up maybe 3-4 to fill in spots that I want more dense. I've run out of places to expand, so now I'm mostly just in maintenance mode. If a tree looks rough, I will plant a new tree somewhat close to it, so that by the time I take one down I have another already growing.

[@joeschmidt8415]

I think there is merit to the idea that permaculture is for rich white folks with land. It's not that permaculture is inherently racist and classist - it's that our economic system is, and permaculture is much easier to practice when you do have land. You have to consider that starting a hydroponics setup may be expensive, that their landlord may object, that they may not have adequate light or finances to spend on lighting setups, etc. It's not an equal footing. What I think we should be doing is advocating for garden spaces and food forests in urban areas. New York in particular could pioneer this with Central Park. Feed people with that land. You're in a unique position to advocate and educate on this type of thing. :) The food forest is looking amazing by the way. Thank you for the tour.

[@leep4655]

👍🤝

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

This is so well said!

[@makenar7949]

Last year my family drove from Colorado to Maine. I planned our route so that we could visit as many public food forests as we could. Almost all of them were overgrown and neglected. It seemed like they had been designed and planted, but weren't being used or maintained. It's tricky to plant public food for people because most people don't know enough about the way food grows to be able to identify and harvest the food that is available. Plus real permaculture plots look a little intimidating with everything growing big and close together. If the plants encroach on the pathways it can almost look dangerous to people who aren't used to it. I agree, and I wish there were more communities utilizing public land for food, but as a culture we have a lot of re-learning to do before people will be willing and confident to use those resources.

[@heidiedwards7819]

Grapes: did you say if they are wild or cultured variety? I have wild and summer grapes, can I nurture them to viable size fruits?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Mine are named varieties... Swenson and Concord. For wild grapes, definitely male sure you can identify moonseed grapes before you ever consider trying them, because moonseed grapes are fatal. I wouldn't bother trying to cultivate wild grapes to a larger size, I would just buy a named variety. That being said, if you do want to try, the key is limiting the number of bunches on any vine, so you get larger ones. Everything else isn't under your control, as it is genetically determined. You could save and propagate seed and select the best ones each generation, but again, I'd just recommend buying good named varieties and saving yourself a few decades or more of trial and error.

[@heidiedwards7819]

Thank you ❤I’m a little too far from the creek for muscadines (my neighbors have thickets of them though!)

[@terrycarkner1698]

What is a sage tree ?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Bush, herbaceous layer.

[@11STANE11]

So many pawpaws, aren't you worried about the toxins in contains that kills nerve cells?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Never heard of that, and I subscribe to a few medical sources on food that discuss these things. Do you have any literature I can read on it?

[@11STANE11]

i've sent 2 comments with links did you receive any of them?@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy

[@11STANE11]

It seems that youtube deletes comments with links :) Sorry i can't send in the comment but if there is any other way please let me know @@CanadianPermacultureLegacy

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yeah that can be annoying. If you just give the title, author and website, I could probably find it with Google.

[@11STANE11]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy i tried adding titles and authors only and gets deleted. I guess covid created censorishi and filters. I will try to describe them and maybe it helps. They were about the effect of toxin pawpaw contains and that even fruit contains a lot of it. One study talked about case of brain damage for a pawpaw farmer One talked about skin and seeds and how much harmful substances they have and that shouldnt be eaten