The Berthier Gets an Upgrade: The Model 1916

[@gz7006]

It is the year 3017. Ian finally handles and analyses the last variant of the Berthier. Followers of the Church of The Gun are in disarray, for the last millenium the lingua franca between them was French, to properly research and catalog all the minute nuances of the Berthier, right arm of their Prophet. They are lost, in what seemed to be an unending font of knowledge and amazement was now completely dried out, much like the experimental Brittish SMGs and rifles were before them. Ian uploads a new video in a new playlist. "The Mosin Nagant Rifle and it's variants". There is still work to be done.

[@backgroundzombieno.9449]

Thats a beautiful story

[@Loutral]

That would be a smooth transition since some of the first Mosin Nagant were made in Châtellerault in France.

[@SNOUPS4]

you mean "left arm of their prophet" in this case...

[@Isildun9]

The Work of The Great One is never truly finished.

[@jacobvisor3034]

This just makes me think of Dune lol

[@polygondwanaland8390]

little known fact: Ian actually runs a french resistance cell that never surrendered, fighting ghost Nazis in the Paris catacombs, which is where he gets the Berthiers

[@ForgottenWeapons]

+char whick It's true.

[@shitfitproductions6798]

Facts!

[@vidyaorszag]

Forgotten Weapons New lore confirmed.

[@jasondoe2596]

xD

[@tridactasaurus]

Headcannon accepted

[@FullSemiAuto357]

There needs to be a t-shirt that says "The original M16" with a Berthier silhouette under it. Or something like that.

[@LawkzBro]

the original m16

[@rjprescott4742]

Pedro Vanderlei 40 + years before

[@JB-pu6ek]

@Dreymon Green I guess that as it was very forward thinking at the time and that this pattern was in 1916?

[@TheBucketSkill]

@Dreymon Green I guess because it's Model 1916?

[@Ensign_Cthulhu]

Silly question - what happens if you try to stick a 5-shot clip into a 3-shot rifle? I imagine the clip follower stops at the limit of its designed travel and says "NON, MONSIEUR."

[@ForgottenWeapons]

You can use a 5-round clip in a 3-round magazine as long as you only load 3 rounds in it. The bottom of the clip will stick out the bottom of the magazine, but it will work.

[@piritskenyer]

That's actually really cool show on screen? :D

[@avp5964]

Sillier - two 3 rounders in an M16? Catch probably won't get quite far enough up and the last round probably has the same problem as a 6 clip in a 3 round receiver

[@Statusinator]

The M16 clip deserves some kind of award for its cleverness

[@avp5964]

It is very clever. I think 8mm Lebel is interesting too, tweaked to work w/ tube magazines and also not rim lock in an en bloc clip.

[@williamwilliams7706]

I brag to friends about finding an M16 in my parents(dad's) basement. Then realized that in Chicago that kind of bragging is not a very good idea. Really enjoying this series Ian. It was searching for anything on the Berthier and that brought me to your channel in the first place, I subscribed that day.

[@ristoalanko9281]

Same kind of history as Mosin-Nagants have: gradual upgrade packages, rearsenaled old models, parts guns made of many broken ones, And the collectors hunt the "original model, with matching numbers"... those rifles were the ones that never were used in war, where they were intended.

[@Jesses001]

I agree. Having the old 3 round clips still work in the new magazine is a major deal, one that I am sure the troops appreciated. If all you have are the three found clips, it would be a major pain to have to single load.

[@Jesses001]

Right. So any screw up in logistics does not leave the troop with a single shot rifle.

[@MilsurpMikeChannel]

Yep. I bought an M16 a week before the election in a panic buy. I guess I missed the point of a panic buy...

[@thegoldencaulk2742]

KZbin at it again with the pointless UI changes that are worse than before. Sorry, what I mean was "Nice French gats!"

[@AarieaaronFTW]

What did they change? Nothing different for me

[@AldanFerrox]

I know someone who owns the Turkish Forestry Carbine version of the Berthier. It's a really nice gun.

[@KVDC2008]

I know someone who owns the Zimbabwe National Forest Service Carbine version of the Berthier. It's a really nice gun too.

[@EchosTackyTiki]

2:07 I don't know why, but when Ian said you could still run the old 3 round clips in the new 5 round rifles, I genuinely did a cha-ching and softly said "yessssss", like I was rooting for the new Berthier to have that feature. I was thinking about that the moment I looked at the gun and recognized that it had a larger magazine, and I was happy to see the French get that backwards compatibility with the current ammo supply chain squared away. Mind you, this is me rooting for the French to do something correctly 107 years in the past. But it feels great that they did.

[@FNRifleman]

I just recently picked up an M16 carbine that's in fantastic condition. I'm so happy to finally see you do a video on a gun I actually own!

[@FNRifleman]

toomanyaccounts Yup. I was actually able to find a place with some still in stock and picked up 3 boxes. She shoots like a dream!

[@seanjoseph8637]

The research Ian does and the commitment to his subject is inspiring.

[@kibbeystovall7546]

Just wanted to thank you, Ian, for your effort on the Berthier carbine. These videos have helped me figure out how my M-16 marked, Balle-N chambered, but 3-shot carbine with a clearing rod might have reached its current state.

[@creanero]

Thanks for the reminder. Looking forward to seeing one of those "only dropped once" T-shirts over here in Ireland.

[@TacgnolSimulacrum]

You know when Gun Jesus says "That's a level of detail we won't be addressing here" that it's SUPER esoteric.

[@20secondsofcourage1]

I just picked up a 1916 at an Estate Sale. I need to get my hands on a front band to complete the rifle.

[@dalesubic345]

What I think is important is that you, are a historian of these weapons. Without these videos much of history of firearms could be lost. Thank you for that!

[@brandonedwards1806]

Just ordered a shirt, I will definitely be the coolest kid on my block in 3-5 days. Merci!

[@oscarfloyd2678]

8mm Lebel out of that short barrel? Must have been a hell of a kick! I remember reading about Lee Enfield jungle carbines having this same issue

[@williamwilliams7706]

Berthier is very short and lightweight so i slipped a limbsaver on mine and the recoil is pretty tame now.

[@glennsche]

they blow out a huge fireball and are louder than soviet m44s. first time i fired my carbine the dude next to me dropped his rifle in surprise

[@mikakoskimies36]

Congrats on 5000 Patreons!

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Thanks!

[@Crossx39]

Thanks for the video; there is so little information out on French rifles this really helps me cuz I just recently got myself a M16 carbine from a local seller for cheap, sadly the upper handguard is broken, and it's missing it's sling bar in the stock. But it' s really cool to have a gun that served for so long.

[@oglack6137]

you've hyped this video so much that my heart fluttered with excitement when it came up

[@batickell]

You mentioned that the Lebel had been out production before WWI. Did France ever consider replacing the Lebel entirely with the Berthier?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

They pretty much did after the war.

[@Jeqavy_Wavy]

Forgotten Weapons Is the Berthier have any better qualities that make it desired over the M1886?

[@xander1052]

probably reload speed since you can use a clip rather than loading it one round after the other.

[@coltm4a186]

Forgotten Weapons Is it true that some Lebels were used during WW2 due to desperation?

[@flatsurfaces1913]

Colt M4A1 yes. The Greek partisans even used 1870's Gras rifles, so I assume the French military or French resistance did too.

[@UziNineMillimeter]

You're absolutely right with the confusing part of the transition period! My 3 round 1916 Chatelleraut artillerie d' carbine had the updated receiver, front sight, and handguard... but still three rounds... im starting to either think that someone took the time to change it back to a three rounder or that I should have kept it since it was beyond rare Dx

[@davecbm6062]

Great information and I now understand more about my Berthier M16. Thanks.

[@tehgreatvak]

Manufactures d'Armes de Châtellerault>Trijicon

[@b.griffin317]

Really?

[@b.griffin317]

Wiki, the fount of all truth, says Trij is US and started by importing Sowwth Awfreekah'n tritium sights (wondering why they were making that back then? lol).

[@mysss29]

Radium: everything's better with cancer(tm).

[@thelegendaryklobb2879]

Great video Ian, your passion for french arms clearly shows in this one. Quick question: were there any precision or sniper variants of the Berthier or the Lebel during WWI? Thanks, and keep up the good work!

[@hazakdds7366]

Thanks Ian.

[@WrightM88]

I’m not really a “gun guy” and I love these videos!

[@forty4forty1]

You may need to mention the ammunition compatibility problem Belle D Belle N I nearly used the wring ammo in my carbine. "Balle N ammo should never be fired from any Lebel or Berthier rifle unless it has had the chamber reamed to accept the larger neck of the N cartridge. Such weapons are stamped N on top of the barrel, just in front of the receiver and behind the rear sight. Balle N ammo is identifiable by the fact that the bullet, while pointed like the solid brass Balle D, is lead-cored and jacketed with soft steel."

[@troy9477]

At last, a 5 round mag and clip! The dustcover on tbe bottom of the mag seems like a good idea too. All in all a pretty good design. Really enjoying the series. Great video as always. Thank you.

[@wraith1371]

Damn it Ian! I just got off work I'm supposed to be going to sleep!

[@pikeywyatt]

yahoo t shirt on its way.to go with my inrange one..sit in kitchen in Bexhill on sea and get things from Forgotten Weapons..bloody marvelous . Thanks Ian and Karl...

[@centblinde1450]

I wonder if there would be any chance of seeing a shootoff between the m16 and an earlier carbine, on the clock of course, just to see how large of a difference the sights and magazine actually made. Something akin to the PGO shotgun tests

[@johnjohnon8767]

I had one decades ago, mine was a carbine version. It's recoil was like a kick from a horse I never got used to.

[@anthonyhayes1267]

Would you consider its recoil similar to the m95 carbine

[@hipwave]

At the shooting range. ME: MY BUDDY: HA HA ! ME: No, man. it's actually supposed to work like this. No, dude, I am serious. WILL YOU PLEASE STOP LAUGHING OOK ?

[@tangero3462]

That pan up the barrel of the long rifle took as long as the intro of Spaceballs

[@dscrappygolani7981]

I now have a brandnewfound respect for the French military leadership! My god ,these people took so much into account while designing each new iteration. Thank you Mr McCollum for that t-shirt design. Speaks volumes without making any sound.

[@doctoreff1]

I think I saw these rifles in D. W. Griffith's movie 'Berthier of a Nation'.

[@Zorglub1966]

Nice shot!! :D

[@simonferrer]

There were a few in the sequel that Griffith did about the problems with the Remington order, "Intolerance," too :-) It's not often that gun and movie nerd worlds get to converge..

[@kennethconnors7532]

the amount of homework on all these unique weapons must be immense

[@Karamojo7mm]

Ian, admit it: you are a sponsored Berthier Team shooter. ;)

[@marklandwehr7604]

I bought one of these rifles at a gun show in Cincinnati as a kid for 35 bucks 40 ammunition there too Ted Stevens was the MC😊

[@TwentythreePER]

Someday I hope to have a Bethier collection that's a fraction of how complete your collection is. I really like the 3-shot Berthier better but the 1916 model is interesting too.

[@nate_thealbatross]

I bet the French troops loved the Berthier. So much handier and easy to carry on the march or in a trench. And when it was upgraded it was even upgraded backwards compatible! Great for artillery, calvary, short people... the Lebel is way too big and heavy to be practical. And the "8 shots" of the Lebel add up to fewer rounds per minute of sustained fire due to longer reloads. It isn't the SMLE or anything, but it works.

[@Jesses001]

You know, it took me a minute to understand the shirt, but I get it now. It is taking that old joke about the French in WWII and turning it around. Dropped only once, but not in the way people have often said.

[@happyhaunter_5546]

Really enjoying these video series, would love to see you do Mauser lineage (or maybe something more obscure?) next; could be something good for patreons to vote on.

[@callhoonrepublican]

I saw an m-16 carbine in a gun store that I guess didn't have the raised sight, you couldn't see the rear sight, not sure if the handgurad was a replacement or it swelled overtime

[@Zorglub1966]

Hi Ian, About the old archives still classified : Here is the website adress of the historical service of french national defence : www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/ You can consult restricted acces archives and there is a link to a form to ask a derogation : www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/?q=content/demander-une-d%C3%A9rogation And cherry on the top, from the same site the conditions to consult the M.A.Châtellerault's archives : www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/?q=content/%E2%80%A2-%C3%A0-ch%C3%A2tellerault Of course it's all in french, it's normal, we discovered electricity only 3 years ago. But, among the thousands of fans, they are plenty who'll be really happy to help you in your historical AND administrative process. Cheers

[@ForgottenWeapons]

I have to learn a lot more of the language before there is any point in trying to get into the archives. :)

[@Zorglub1966]

I understand this part of the issue, but as it's written by many commenters on this channel, they are ready to translate.

[@Seabreeze756]

So, Ian, put a little bit of effort to it - imagine yourself travelling through French Alps with Berthier Carbine on your shoulder and a bottle of Champagne of your choice in your backpack... What a life!!!

[@Zorglub1966]

I would not be obtrusive(*), but in this specified case, you can delegate some parts of your searches, it's called collaboration. Okay, it's an old french tradition, but also a worlwide common approach for historians and writers. It doesn't change anything to your merits, it will spare you time and money and some people will be happy to help. (*) if it's the case i apologize

[@Seabreeze756]

@Zorg, hopefully, your more than generous offer will be accepted by Ian.

[@SearTrip]

Excellent as usual. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a mention of the Continsouza receivers on the M.16s. That might be useful for people who run into them.

[@dougzack4565]

When I was a kid first getting into guns the Lebels and Berthiers were the only milsurps I wasn't interested in. I thought they were complete junk. Ian has literally single handedly made me want one. At the time could have had all of the versions he has presented in this series ( with the exception of the Cuirassier) in good condition for $100 each hahaha. c'est la vie

[@Dugauntlet]

Hey Ian great content as always and I'm loving this series on the Berthier thank you for sharing the history on a rifle I barely knew existed just a few years ago. Will you be doing a similar series on the Lee Enfield rifle? I would love to see that. As always amazing content and perhaps I'll keep an eye out for one of these at the gun show next week if I don't find an Enfield that I like.

[@Dugauntlet]

Yes I am aware of that playlist however, looking at it that playlist seems more focused on all of the oddball experimental variants that for the most part never really caught on. What I meant was I would like a series exactly like this one but going over the developmental design and eventually the adoption and following variants of the rifles. I realize that his troop trials video touches on this a little bit however I would just like to see a bit more detail on this sort of thing; I do plan on purchasing that book when I get around to it so I suppose that will just have to do for now.

[@jessicasimp4459]

Wow, this is the original M-16 rifle / carbine and the M-16 we know today is actually the AR-15. "M-16 and M-4 are US government designations. All of the rifles are AR-15s because it's the Eugene Stoner design" ~ Chris Bartocci

[@freakystyle1996]

I want to be a Berthier when I grow up

[@TheCoyote808]

Ian, I would like to just let you know that I was super pumped to order a bit of Forgotten weapons merch through bbtv's store. However, the order came in with a completely different shirt from the one you're promoting in this Video. I've already contacted the merchandiser to see what we can do to get this remedied as I was really looking forward to repping the shirt for you.

[@puppetguy8726]

The M16 Berthier rifle is very attractive looking IMO.

[@xAcidosisx]

Hopefully your next vid on the "details" helps me ID my Berthier long rifle!! Its a 1918 Chatellerault yet is still a 3rd magazine and has the early/carbine bent bolt handle. Each part has different serials so I'm assuming it's a post war conglomerate repair or possibly a private collectors piecemeal reassembly? In for more info!

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Probably a gun rebuilt in 1918 with a new barrel - the dates on these are barrel dates, not receiver dates. So an early gun that just needed a new barrel could easily end up in the early configuration but with a 1918 date on it.

[@xAcidosisx]

Thank you sir!!

[@GadgetPonyGal]

Hey Ian, just a quick question because I'm just a little hazy on this. Are these French rifles all from YOUR collection? Or are some of them on loan from someone else?

[@kut24]

Cocorico! It's 1917 and we finally have a competitive rifle. Les boches sont foutus!

[@MrSven3000]

from seeing some videos about that topic, i believe, berthiers were still used in the french colonial wars in the 1950ies and 60ies, like indochina and algeria.

[@b.griffin317]

I really like these long-form videos or series charting the development history of a particular design or family of FA's. Trying to compete with C&Rsenal? ;-) Like Ian needs to compete with anyone.

[@ES90344]

I just picked up a St. Etienne M16 rifle, with an over stamped serial Manufrance barrel, and no Balle N markings. Wonder where this rifle was that it wasn't upgraded?

[@potatoman898]

Why would the production figures for a rifle this old still be considered a state secret?

[@morenn420]

More like bureaucratic black hole, they are certainly stored somewhere deep in some archive and no one bothered going through the procedures to unclassify this kind of information. It only interests collectors and such.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Production information was considered secret during the war, for understandable reasons, and it was never declassified - so it's still secret today. Not that it's illegal to say how many were made, but the original production records are the only reliable way to know that, and those records are still classified.

[@joshsamuelson1793]

How easy is it to get ammo for these rifles compared to 8mm for the k98?

[@BewareTheLiveWire]

My Berthier arrived today and as I was inspecting it at the gunshop, I worked the bolt and it was smooth as silk, but as soon as I fired it, the bolt locked up extremely tight and I had to put a small amount of force just to make it wobble but it wasnt budging, and I didn't want to force it either and risk breaking something. Is this an issue with Berthiers or is it something in my gun?

[@volrosku.6075]

A gun the latter M26 would feel akin to as both pieces of equipment saw little service in their respective wars but both brought several updates that made both viable in the next war and speaking of which did the 1902/16 see even limited service as late as the Vietnam war?

[@robertbenson136]

Could the stacking rods be used if all 3 rifles had their bayonets attached? Could you show us how the Rifles, carbines stack. 2 rifles one carbine? thanks for your work.

[@colonthree]

I wonder if Ian is the spirit of the old west resurrected. He sure looks the part. Just needs the vest, the hat, the boots, the coat and the revolver-holsters along with a few trillion French rifles on his back. :3c

[@adamhauskins6407]

Ian son Jesus blessed be the church of firearms

[@Brzcastas]

Blue Army under gen Haller was equipped in Berthiers when they fought against Soviets in 1920 but it is quite obvious because Blue Army was formed in France (Polish volunteers) in 1917.

[@coltm4a186]

Please add this into BF1 DICE.

[@spunk1212]

Did Henry Johnson and The Harlem HellFighters in 1918 use a 3 round or 5 round clip??

[@MrLaloule34]

Nice shirt !

[@Mildcat743]

So the upgraded sight is like the Lewes sight on early Lee Metfords?

[@robbrown5702]

I used to have a cavalry Berthier and found it interesting that they had no safety. Insert joke here? It was well made but in the late 1960s in rural Maine ammo was non- existant. I had one box of Remington factory ammo and muzzle blast was impressive!

[@d.k.o.9751]

Have you ever heared about the VSS Vintorez / AS Fal russian subsnic fullauto rifles???? I realy wanted to see them on your great channel, because very low informations are found about them and they are realy realy nice special purpse guns! I only have seen one of them in real life and no information to disable or more infrmation in depth is easy accesable... Keep going! Awsome channel!

[@loosemoose4134]

There was a 1916 Berthier Carbine at my local Cabela's

[@loosemoose4134]

toomanyaccounts What is Balle N?

[@AldanFerrox]

Balle N is a catridge with a heavier bullet that was originally designed for machine guns.

[@loosemoose4134]

Ah, I see, thanks for the info

[@buddyboo4692]

Forgotten Weapons with Gun Jesus

[@jacobthomas6200]

Need a little help on my berthier. Mine is a 3 shot long rifle but is marked as mle m16. And the bayonet does not fit all the way down to the stock. Any clue what is going on?

[@garfe5555]

Bought one of these at the LGS for $125. Missing the upper handguard apparently and my sights look different to those shown here

[@jamesarm1]

Thank God!!! After 40 plus years i finally found out what my rifle was that my Aunt brought home during WWII. 1917 Berthier Carbine 3 round clip. Does anyone know where I can find 3 round clips at?

[@jasonyama333]

I thought I knew what a Lebel and Berthier looked liked, now I just know way to much. Next time I watch a WWI movie and look at French soldiers I am going be that up grade is all wrong for that time period. The wrong ammo pouches were already making eye twitch.

[@exploatores]

that is why I think It´s hard to look at war movies. sometimes they aren´t even close to the right thing.

[@simonferrer]

I watched a horror movie set in WW1 with British soldiers (I can't remember the name). The web gear was okay-ish (not too many changes there between the wars), but the actors were carrying No 4 Mk I's in what was supposed to be 1917 France.

[@delta2372]

jasonyama333 I wish someone would make a good and accurate WW1 film

[@MrReded69]

DEATH WATCH with Andy Serkis.

[@Berthrond]

Is this the rifle version of the Bergman blitz?

[@LordEvan5]

Man I have wanted a Lebel for so long I cannot find one for my life

[@Observer31]

I do hope this series ends with a little bit of shooting of a Berthier :)

[@Isaaclichtenstein]

Why would they still be considered State Secrets? Do they not want to reveal their process of upgrading and R&D, in case that could be used against them?

[@siestatime4638]

I'm not an expert in French Intelligence (Please, no oxymoron jokes here), but bureaucracies generally make it much easier to "classify" information than to "declassify" it. To keep it secret, you do nothing; to make it public takes a ton of paper work and signatures.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Exactly - it was considered secret back during the war, and simply never got de-classified.

[@Isaaclichtenstein]

Hmmm, that's pretty unfortunate, thanks for the responses tho! I always assumed that secrets like that had a time-out date, where after some number of decades they would declassify.

[@thelegendaryklobb2879]

Cykablyat Heathen! Thou shalt burn at the stake for thine insolence! ;)

[@Moh-dn8dg]

I like your T-shirt

[@davidwallace5738]

Ian, I just picked up a 1907/15 with the M16 modifications however, the receiver is only marked 1907/15. How common is this? Thank you sir.

[@vincecirivello1385]

I am guessing all of the rifles in this series are from your personal collection, correct?

[@spigotsandcogs]

Yay, the most OP bolt rifle in Verdun!

[@huntersills1]

God I love this gun

[@joemcgraw2542]

Where can I find a 5 round clip at? I got the rifle found the ammo online but can't find a clip?

[@Diebulfrog79]

Love these berthier videos. What happened to x models. Like 6.5mm Japanese or 7.65mm Russian?

[@chronosthevnwierdo6461]

Good video! Minor audio quibble, though - at 11:13, you cut your sentence off too early. It's obvious what you were saying though, so it's not really a big deal.

[@Bezulba2]

When a rifle gets upgraded and refurbished over it's lifespan. Is it still the same rifle when at the end all the components have been swapped out?

[@jackandersen1262]

“This is my Grandfather's ax. This is my Grandfather's ax. My Father replaced the handle. I replaced the ax-head. This is my Grandfather's ax.”

[@seabears_hate_circles]

Is there going to be an episode on the Turkish forestry carbine?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

There already was - but I should probably redo it. :)

[@natureman494]

the m 1916 indochina rifle seems to me like the pinnacle of the berthier line

[@apoinla]

Ian, great stuff I didn’t know the Greek army used this in the 1920 wars with Turkey. My grandfather was a survivor of the Armenian Genocide and was in the Greek Army during the 1920 wars between Greece and the Turks. Also my God father was in the French foreign legion during WWII, I’m not sure but was it you that mentioned that the French foreign legion used the Berthier as late as and during WWII? Anyway I could not resist having a family history like that and so I purchased my first Army surplus French Berthier MLE 1907-15 8mm Lebel Action Rifle MFD 1916 C&R. I Probably over paid, but i know better! Thank you my next will likely be a Russian mosin nagant as my grandfather also fought with Russian against Turks during the Armenian Genocide. Anyway Ian your info is crazy good, thx!

[@thecolabaron]

thats a cool shirt!