Model 1892 Berthier Artillery Musketoon

[@sarrumac]

you deserve a medal as defender of french culture and history.

[@Tobascodagama]

Some French fan of Forgotten Weapons needs to submit his name for the Ordre national du Mérite or Ordre des Arts et des Lettres. :)

[@sarrumac]

Yup. I've seen a lot of people with it that haven't done half of Ian's Work.

[@AdamMGTF]

Google: "Did you mean *surrender* of french culture" Before you jump on your highest horse. This is a joke.

[@betaich]

Ian you are funny at around 4:00 you say there isn't much to tell us about that rifle anymore and than you talk for another 10 minutes. I like it.

[@Xaxnaxbar2]

lol so true... no one BUT Ian can, thankfully though :)

[@ianpendlebury3704]

Nothing beats an enthusiast talking about his area of enthusiasm - keep it up!

[@Ashfielder]

French rifles, Ian's favourite topic. I bet all this stuff is the highlight of his career, covering the French weaponry.

[@totenkopf28]

A Francophile, exactly

[@CalciumCD]

A Ouiaboo, if you will

[@daksanders4579]

Aren't you the guy that gave Phly the series of really hilarious challenges that while ago in War Thunder?

[@Ashfielder]

Dak Sanders Yeah, I gave him a couple.

[@therugburnz]

Toby Wood I dismissed most French military weapons before few months ago. Now I am searching for more and not just guns. I want to know more about French industrial heavy machining and materials of war and how it was influenced by System International and science.

[@CaptainGrief66]

_I want one of those shirts_ But anyway, I love how Ian treats every topic, firearm, nation with absolute respect and he's neutral in his comments, gotta appreciate him for that too

[@Zorglub1966]

Yes it's a real pleasure.

[@CaptainFalcon92]

French viewer here ;) Really nice video serie Ian. I learn more from you about my own country history than from local schools or museums. Give me a call if you come by Paris or near and want to hang out.

[@Zorglub1966]

About the Gendarmerie : The Gendarmerie, was a part of the army (*). The Gendarmerie's task, in peacetime was police in rural areas, and provost during wartime. (*)Nowadays if tasks are the same, it's no longer under defense ministry authority, but the Home Office (Ministère de l'Intérieur).

[@mattisvov]

Oh Ian, you truly have sucked me in. Here I am, watching a video about the minute differences in different models of bayonet for a century-old french rifle. :P

[@Majorrogerragland48]

I was fortunate to find one of these at my friends LGS on consignment w/ the 3rd style bayonet. No one knew much as to what if was, I grabbed for a song and have loaded for using Trailboss reduced loads. Thanks, Ian, for the tutorial.

[@RaderizDorret]

Those rifles look like they'd be almost ideal backpack rifles since they appear so short and handy. Even with a 3 round capacity, they just look like the kind of rifle you'd carry with you at all times and be ready to use if the need arises.

[@therugburnz]

Thanx, Ian . I have always followed rifle manufacturing. Specifically I am interested in the mathematics of curves used during design and how the process of manufacture changes said design. I appreciate your bringing the Art of French rifle manufacturing to my attention that I was ignorant of previously. And as always, Peace

[@princeofmoskova]

Keep up the GREAT work Ian! Thank you for another great informative video.

[@alanvonify]

Late but still here. Thanks Ian. Look forward to your posts.

[@daktari]

Interestingly enough, the follow-up to the Mousqueton Berthier 1892 is the Ruger AC556, named "Mousqueton AMD" and used by riot police and jail guards in France (being replaced by the HK G36 currently). The giant gap is explained by the fact that the MAS-36 was compact enough to replace all versions of both the Lebel 1886 and the Berthier 1890.

[@tadejpogacharo3963]

You defend the amazing and unknown in the US french military history a lot better than the french government

[@Intelwinsbigly]

defend?

[@arisukak]

Ian, the sling is on backwards. The little dogear goes toward the stock, not away. It's there to prevent the pin that holds the sling together from poking the stock.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Yeah, I know. However, it's a very brittle sling, and I am worried that it will break if I try to flip it around.

[@arisukak]

That's totally understandable then! I have some Japanese rubberized canvas slings. They're even worse.

[@arisukak]

It's honestly best to avoid using anything on old leather. Most museum conservators will say to do that. Nothing added will save the piece and often will have the opposite effect. Most leather treatments out there are to make something functional, not preserve it. What truly preserves anything organic is a stable environment.

[@edisonfrisbee6345]

That shirt is brilliant - ordered one today.

[@Mildcat743]

I think all the French army jokes finally broke Ian so he needed to systematically break down why those people are wrong. Go Ian!

[@TwentythreePER]

I find the French rifles in WWI extremely interesting. I'm glad you are doing this series. Looking forward to the next episodes. Also, I love that shirt.

[@MrKingdavis13]

Ian, this is a little off topic but I was wondering if you have ever investigated how gun manufacturers would measure bullet velocities back before the chronograph was invented. It looks like a pretty interesting story but it would be awesome to actually see some of the equipment used if you ever come across any of the stuff in a museum or whatever. Great video as usual.

[@freakystyle1996]

It is pretty simple. They would put two paper disks, ande then fixed them to a single rod and make it rotate at a known, constant velocity. Then they would shoot through both disks and measure the difference in angle of the two holes. Since every other variable was knows, some math and you have the travel speed of the bullet.

[@daveweller9579]

They set up a clock and fired it into at a set distance and time.

[@frankperkin124]

i have a Berthier artillery carbine that was brought back from WW1 by my GGrandfather. Serial no.5960. It was used by my father to hunt hunt deer in the 1950`s. The only thing that was changed was a recrown job on the barrel that shortened lt back to the front sight. The barrel date is 1892. The stock stamp is not visable. The interesting thing is that it looks to have been refinished for WW1 by painting it black. My GGrandfather died in 1921, and it sat in a closet until his son gave it to my father in the 1940s, so it was not painted post war. If anyone is interested I can post some picks.

[@demonprinces17]

So good watching again

[@samhenderson2947]

I'm glad I don't have Ian's collectors bug.

[@AtomicPeacenik]

sam henderson be thankful. One day you'll wake up and go 'holy shit I have a lot of stuff' but you'll love it anyway. Hell, get collecting something. Go catch the bug!

[@landotomunn9048]

I just want a Berthier SO BAAAD they are a pure beauty

[@johnharvey5412]

I'm always happy when somebody calls it a fuller instead of a "blood groove"

[@dgedi78]

Merci Ian, you're amazing.

[@hazakdds7366]

Thanks Ian.

[@troy9477]

Berthiers are among the most interesting of French rifles. Yes, the French do get a bad rep. I suspect the high command ordered the surrender and many units did not want to obey. The French had good tanks but did not concentrate them into massed units like the Germans did. Rather, each regiment had a small detachment of tanks which were used for infantry support. Similar story with their artillery, which was also high quality but not concentrated properly. A group of about 35,000 French soldiers fought a courageous delaying action at Dunkirk to give the British time to evacuate. Anyway, great video as always. Thank you. Looking forward to the series

[@Sedan57Chevy]

I went into my local gunshop in NW today and saw a nice condition Berthier 1916 rifle. I asked the guy "Is that a Berthier?" and he had no idea what I was talking about. I died inside a little bit. It was priced at $850, no idea if that's a good price (not my sort of gun to personally own), but if anyone else is interested in knowing the location let me know. It had the long Rosalie bayonet.

[@ricochetoconnell3186]

I've bought myself one of these shirts, looks very cool.

[@asphaltmemories4597]

Thanks Ian now I want to get my hands on a Model 1916 carbine....

[@UC645]

Out of everything I saw in the video, I need that shirt the most

[@seanhartigan2003]

I didn't even know this berthier mini series was a thing, but I like it

[@williammichaelsexton]

2:35 I have that same repro rod on my 1892. Good quality.

[@jameslawrie3807]

See the hooked quillon? The French were considered the world's premier bayonet fencers and had a codified martial art revolving around the bayonet on and off the rifle. That hook is a multifunctional part of the weapon and it could be used off the rifle to hook the forefinger over to allow for better point control and grip and on the rifle to allow for several sorts of disarm, one was which the hook was run down the opposing weapon and the with a twist and a rearward wrenching motion you could pull the rifle clear out of your enemies' hands and over your shoulder. If this sounds familiar you're right, the Japanese learned it from French instructors. This sort of advanced infantry skill ceased to have meaning during The Great War, but I wouldn't have been exactly cheerful seeing a determined poilu advancing down my trench and pointing Rosalie at me regardless.

[@jodc2760]

After 1918, these were also issued to the cavalry, instead of model 1890 cavalry carbine. You can see it on Foreign Legion cavalry Regiment during the RIF War.

[@guigui78340]

that rosalie song is pretty badass

[@spudgunn8695]

Bloody hell, Ian. How many Berthiers does one man need? I mean, I love Lee-Enfields, but I've only got three of them!

[@joshuaford4460]

Spud Gunn *Flashes back to the Bergmann playlist*

[@FakeSchrodingersCat]

love the word Musketoon.

[@coles201]

Thanks!

[@scottybeegood]

Just picked up one of these.

[@kenadams813]

Very interesting, I have one of these rifles, all matching numbers but no clearing rod or bayonete

[@fhsreelfilms]

Thanks for this series about French rifle development. I have a soft spot for the Berthier. Question: wasn't another reason for the somewhat outdated state of French longarms in 1914 the fact that they were hard at work on a semi-auto? I seem to remember reading at the Musée de l'Armée in France that the army essentially stuck with the Lebel and Berthier in the early 1900s because they didn't want to waste resources on updating bolt-action rifles while they were perfecting the semi-auto design... which was, of course, interrupted when the war came.

[@leemurphy3960]

Have you ever saw a Berthier with a stamping in the stock behind the trigger guard. It is a 1892 3 shot carbine.

[@TheKirik71]

Cant wait for sweaty 6-stars to rail me with this beauty

[@sniperblast]

I would love to see some videos on bayonets.

[@hammsbeerbearshootingrange3716]

so when is the book coming out?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

I would really like to have the manuscript done by the end of the year.

[@alp627]

What was a quillion (sp?) on a bayonet's purpose, and what other changes/benefits did cutting it down impart?

[@joevincent73]

So happy to have found your site/work. I have one of these weapons that has been modified in the stock to incorporate a cleaning kit. Have you come across anything like that? Be happy to share pics in whatever media channel. Thanks again - good stuff!

[@ΠασχαληςΜπανδας-θ5υ]

Hey Ian! I would like to ask you if you could do a video on a French gunmaker named Devisme. I've seen your videos with his percussion revolvers,but I can't find information about himself anywhere. Thank you for your time.

[@ΠασχαληςΜπανδας-θ5υ]

IPostSwords Thanks a lot.

[@vincentrees4970]

I'll be honest, I have very little interest in French firearms, their urge to tinker with naval units kind of put me off because I figured if French naval development was bad, French firearms would be an endless rabbit hole. But, between Battlefield 1 and Hunt: Showdown I've developed quite the appreciation for these dinky little Berthiers. Very interesting thank you

[@chunkymonkeypolo]

These carbines would be badass to use today. It would be like having a handy handcannon... probably wouldn't do you any good but cool non the less.

[@seanhartigan2003]

Yes

[@seanhartigan2003]

I agree

[@Aaron-jj9no]

G11? you need to make one video of that!

[@seanhenry8030]

nothing like a metal sheath to keep the blade sharp.

[@thegoldencaulk2742]

Where do you get those small rounded table props? I quite like them.

[@NyanNyanification]

Hi Ian, just to clarify : the gendarmerie is a military force with some police powers

[@jodc2760]

Gendarmerie is the countryside police. But it is part of the Army. The city Police belongs to each Town.

[@loyd3037]

Ian, what is the normal turn around time for one of you videos? I understand that if it an item that you are not particularly familiar with that there will need to be some research prior to production. But once it actually gets filmed until it is uploaded is the time I'm wondering about. Thank you very much. I like the educational value you provide very much.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

It depends. Some are posted the day after I film them, some are scheduled out as much as 6 weeks ahead of time (and some I keep in a backlog for potentially months before editing and uploading).

[@Kinkampoiana]

Your sling is upside down...The button spoils the weapon. ;o) The little leather part is designed for this.

[@deadbreath666]

Ian should do a video of the .22 berthier he has

[@nate_thealbatross]

Such a handy short rifle! How did they end up with gigantic rifles in World War One? Length and weight are soldier's enemies.

[@codyglacz8604]

apparently my 1892 has a 07/15 receiver which caught me off guard did the French reused receivers during ww1?

[@isaace8090]

My LGS has a carbine for $525. It's not as nice as these, but looks decent. It's very tempting to add to my carbine collection.

[@jmkiller7128]

Lan, i seen a lot of your video who dealing with french weapons. so, can we say of the french weapons are your's favorites? moreover on your opinion and with the lot of french weapons who you had examinated can you say if the french weapons are good. And good video 😉

[@halincandenza7640]

He's writing a book on french rifles. That's why he's making so many videos about them.

[@jmkiller7128]

Hal Incandenza ok thank. i wasn't warned

[@MrRonaldMcCoy]

Im curious i just picked up a 1892 made in june 1897 but has no serial number anywhere on the rifle was this common

[@Sargrak]

One small detail: it's mousqueton, not musqueton. Great vid otherwise.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Fixed. :)

[@alexalban8688]

Oh man, this rifle is gorgeous. So handy, so short. It probably kicks like a mule, but seems as if it would be pleasant nonetheless

[@thegodfather_8455]

Hey i have a berthier carbine that has all of the m16 conversions on it like the 5 round clip system and a filled in cleaning rod holder. But it says on the bolt carrier mle 1892? Help would be appreciated

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Many 1892 carbines were updated to M16 pattern after WW1.

[@thegodfather_8455]

@@ForgottenWeapons thank you for correcting my ignorance

[@wikikomoto]

am i the only human on earth who prefers a straight-pull bolt? it just feels more natural to cycle for me...

[@rogerwennstrom6677]

Stupid question, but why not put a hole in the clearing rod, so it can double as a cleaning rod?? Would it make it too weak?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

I think they wanted guys to clean with a pull-through, because the rod will damage the bore if not used properly.

[@rogerwennstrom6677]

Thanks for the reply! Seems reasonable aswell!

[@lakewooded4929]

What was the logic for the quillon design? That forward loop appears odd.

[@Zorglub1966]

If i'm not wrong, it was intended, during close quarter combat, to help to "jam/ward off/block"(*) the opponent's bayonet, and also as stacking post at rest. (*)English is not my native language

[@coldstarter5]

Neat!

[@ezzz42]

blunderbuss or musketoon. which sounds cooler?

[@kurt9894]

love the French rifle videos. are you going to continue the series with Gras/Chassepot rifles?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Yes, eventually I will be covering the Gras, Chassepot, Lebel, MAS-36, and MAS 44 series.

[@adonoghuea02]

Did these and the cavalry carbine use the same en bloc clip?

[@Foolishman1776]

So, I'll leave this question here. I recently purchased a Berthier 1892 MD manufactured Chatellerault 1917. What does the MD stand for?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Modification Desaleux, probably. The sights are calibrated for Balle 1886D.

[@heyimauav5005]

I'll tune in every time to another video on Forgotten Weapons dot com

[@BelWaffles457]

**Bayou Humming Intensifies**

[@bigMSUfan1]

I don't think this gun is in BF1. Does that mean it will get added in the future and Ian has awesome insider info?

[@DystruktoBoi1]

I have always wondered since I found InRange - is Karl your cameraman for Forgotten Weapons?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

No, not usually.

[@Amadeus_Phoenix]

When you're talking about the dates of the third bayonet style you say that the example of the first bayonet type was made in 1918... Isn't that after you said the second style had been adopted, with the muzzle ring extension added to make it stay in place better? Did they return to the first type or continue producing both, or have I missed something?

[@Amadeus_Phoenix]

Or, God forbid I suggest it, did you pick up the wrong bayonet

[@ForgottenWeapons]

My 2nd pattern example was made in 1918.

[@Amadeus_Phoenix]

Forgotten Weapons it looks to me like you're holding the first pattern example when you're talking about the serial number dating it to 1918...i could be wrong but I've rewatched a couple of times and the first/second pattern seem to switch places after you do the closeup on the barrel rings.

[@Pocahonkers]

But isn't a Musketoon a short Musket? So it would be muzzle loaded and smoothbore? I'll assume this is just a case of old nomenclature but since this is still "just a carbine" I don't see why they wouldn't just call it Artillery Carbine.

[@ttofma]

كيف يمكنني الحصول على عتاد البندقية هذه

[@williamphelps5047]

Ian, those bayonets look almost exactly like my type 38 Arisaka bayonet. Did the Japanese copy this design for theirs?

[@julianchiarieri751]

Hey Ian or anyone really, This probably is just a question I should google but, what is the difference in naming one Berthier a carbine (the cavalry) and then the musketoon (for artillery). Sorry if this is a repeated question!

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Just French nomenclature. "Carabines" are for cavalry, and "mousquetons" are for foot troops.

[@julianchiarieri751]

Forgotten Weapons thanks for the timely response! Keep up the great work!

[@higorandrade4504]

Traz um vídeo mostrando a Hellriegel, plz.

[@drpsionic]

The bayonet was longer than the rifle barrel.

[@luthon]

Are these beautiful guns from your own collection? I know that you have a quite extensive collection of WWI French rifles but I can't be sure if you own all the rifles you're showing in this video series.

[@Procket12]

How come the French never implemented a version of the long rifle which had the five round magazine?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

They did.

[@Procket12]

Really?.....wonder why they didn't implement that in Verdun.

[@eVVigilance]

Ian, does your "first pattern" bayonet have any script on the spine?

[@ForgottenWeapons]

No, it's not that early. :(

[@eVVigilance]

Forgotten Weapons I figured if it was you would have mentioned it. I picked mine up a few years back, at the Baltimore show. A32063, and dated September 1893. I may have gone nuts for French bayonets for a while...

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Well, if you ever want to get rid of it...or something like an 1890 Gendarmerie, 1902 Indochina, 1907 Senegalese, or Daudeteau bayonet, let me know! :)

[@joevincent73]

@@ForgottenWeapons Hey Ian. I believe I have an 1890 Gendarmerie. I'd be willing to part with it for your collection...

[@Amadeus_Phoenix]

Sorry to pester on this but I've been away from having internet access for a few days and I hoped there would have been another reply about whether I'm going crazy or not... Having watched again I still think it looks like the first and second pattern bayonets get swapped after you do the closeup on the barrel ring, putting the second pattern on top and leaving you picking up the first pattern and saying it's from 1918... Which doesn't seem to make sense if you're reading the serial number from it, but then again you may well not actually be reading it if you already know it and the video quality isn't high enough for me to see it myself.... Which just brings me back to the question about whether both your second and first pattern bayonets are from 1918 or if they've been mixed up during filming.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

Sure, I guess I did.

[@Amadeus_Phoenix]

Forgotten Weapons well now I just feel bad :(

[@Squizzle1000]

U r good Love the knowledge. Could u do a vid about Canadian rifles? Does Canada make guns?

[@volvok7749]

Gun Jesus is doing God's work with this series.

[@donaldbuckley971]

Serial numbers on bayonets did not match no on rifle

[@fritzkuhne2055]

pls do the BERGMANN MP18 NEXT 11

[@jeromevuarand3768]

The word mousqueton sounded weird to me (as a Frenchman). I checked a couple online dictionary, and it seems mousquet/mousqueton should only refer to much older pre-18th century weapons. This should be a "fusil". Is that a bad translation of musket/musketoon (which might be appropriate in English), or were these really called mousquetons at the end of the 19th century?

[@jodc2760]

Yes these are called "Mousqueton" in French. Late 19th century,: short rifle intended for cavalry were called "carabine" (carbine) and short rifle intended for infantry /artillery/engineers were called "mousqueton". These designations only ended after 1945.

[@thumperpaul]

"Only dropped once" is a slur often repeated about the French military in WW1. It pertains to their supposed lack of courage in battle, that they often dropped their rifles and ran instead of fighting. I'm actually kind of shocked to see that slogan on the t shirt.....

[@baneofbanes]

thumperpaul 1:It comes form WW2 2: It’s supposed to be ironic.

[@burningpentagram666]

I have the type 3 :)

[@joeyflan9000]

It's jist a still picture of the thumbnail for me...

[@kebabsvein1]

Thats a sword

[@Feiora]

They had priorities before the war and dropped the ball... This isnt the first time the french's "support weapon" became a primary weapon due to the reality of the situation... Good lord, those bayonets are shortswords! (I wonder if you can use them in CQC as a sword?)