Forward and Ankle Flexion, the Difference Explained

[@debbielombard5132]

The more I ski the more complicated it gets. When I find myself losing my form, I have your voice reminding me of what I lost focus on and to regain my form and balance. I skied off piste through the trees and the first thing I said when I got to the bottom was, "I didn't stop, I forced myself to regain control". Many thanks, I'm 10 times the skier I was thanks to you!

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

I love this!!!!!!💪💪💪👍👍👍

[@thomasmedeiros5722]

I am a visual learner. Actually watching the proper technique/ technical moves is more helpful that simply reading a description. As a lifetime skier who has been teaching and coaching tennis professionally for decades I always demonstrate proper technique so my players/ students can watch. As a skier I have learned from actual skiing with and watching certified professional instructors/ coaches. I believe in doing drills to improve skills and watching Deb Armstrong ski videos. Absolutely love your teaching style and communication skills.

[@lukecico5155]

This is so key. I figured this out on my own after a lot of trial and error. Couldn’t figure out why my inside ski would sometimes shoot off on its own. I finally realized if I close that angle using my shin muscles the ski falls back under me and I’m more balanced. I can initiate the turn better. She explains this so well and so succinctly. Listen to this one, boys and girls. Ski coaching gold.

[@TuckerPearce]

This is so interesting and helpful. Had an instructor, who was teaching myself and other new instructors, explain this to us tonight. He credited your videos. Thanks!

[@jim5549]

Yes hard to put into words but when you find it you know it and it's awesome! Every bit of knowledge you share helps us so much! Thank you, Deb!

[@musicmakelightning]

Very tail end of the ski season here. But your videos on ankle flexion have tremendously improved my skiing. I've been skiing, very poorly, since I was a teenager (when dinosaurs roamed the earth and we were skiing on banana peels). But your videos have been the one thing that improved me the greatest, all in this past season. Thanks Deb!

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Love it!!!!

[@mgronda410]

Thanks for your post. I too started skiing long ago on banana peels. This makes sense. I will be working on this tomorrow through Thursday on greens. I have a long and bad habit to break that will take time.

[@mmckimson]

Love this explanation! I was just working with an instructor practicing for his Level III exam and we worked on this very thing for his inside leg to keep hips in alignment and control turn radius.

[@scott.e.wiseman]

Glad to see more content, Deb! 😊 This short video takes on a very common understanding I’ve witnessed, which is thinking of getting “forward” as only moving the COM along the length of the skis. Moving the the COM forward in relation to the slope, or the path the skis are taking, is a very different outcome, and this what is achieved through the things you describe so well- the increased ankle flexion of the inside leg, relative to the outside ankle which is more open as that foot pulls back slightly. I’ve kept exploring all my understanding pieces with you, and it’s been awesome!

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Great!!

[@craigpostreplyutube]

Thanks!

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Thank you very much!🙏

[@tjwong007]

Deb thanks for all you do! I use a lot of your tips in my daily lessons!

[@sethjturok]

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Greatly appreciated.

[@shooter7a]

For me, learning things like activation of the shin muscles (which are where ankle dorsiflexion comes from) require DRILLS. You can not just be instructed to do it, then just go do it. The mind can only think of one thing at a time. When you are skiing, unfortunately something like ankle dosiflexion always becomes secondary or tertiary in your thinking process. Drills are a way to ingrain body motions so they happen without thinking. But you have to put in some work. I have found one of Deb's favorite drills, "Falling Leafs" are a great way to learn ankle dorsiflexion and activation of the shin muscles to "close the angle". I was teaching some friends last weekend, and this was the exact drill I had them do, while concentrating on ankle dorsiflexion. Watch "Drills for skiing, Falling Leaf". This is such a great drill to learn ankle dosiflexion because the improvement in your performance of the drill when you close the angle using your shin muscles is so obvious to you. Many incorrect body positions come about because your body responds incorrectly to a short moment where it is in an unstable position. You body is essentially "afraid" and "anxious", and the way it responds naturally is wrong. For whatever reason, when our body is in an unstable position, we seem to naturally put our body in the worst possible position for skiing - back on our heels. While doing the falling leaf drill, concentrate on maintaining ankle dorsiflexion at all times. Use the shin muscles to maintain light to moderate pressure on the boot tongue. The challenging moment in the falling leaf drill is when you swing your tips through the fall line. This is also the moment when your body feels unstable, and will be prone to getting out of position. You will get hung up, and the transition will be slow and jerky. At this moment, if you really use those shin muscles even more, the drill becomes easy, and you can make that transition easily. Go to a steeper slope and you have to close the angle to your boot even harder to swing the tips through the falling leaf transition. This will teach you to use your shin muscles in the transition of your turn. Spend hours a day doing these...and watch hour your transitions and turn entry improves.

[@marsfran55]

Deb, if I’ve been off the slope for even a short period of time, I refocus by watching a video or so from you then applying those thoughts on the slope! One of my very favorite drills from you is the falling leaf! Rarely do I start a ski day without this drill…it sets the whole tone of the day!

[@naztamaddon9143]

That's the basic thing I learned the first session at Whistler. And tons of great contents of your teaching

[@MellenJay]

Thanks Deb, you are always inspiring in how you explain complicated, wordy things simply and succinctly.

[@showze21]

first day on snow for 2023, so i dropped my boots stiffness from 130 flex to 120 flex, just to make the skiing a bit easier. and, to my surprise, i seemed to ski better with the easier ankle flexion, with no apparent loss of performance. then, i focused on your lessons. i did some hops and shuffles to find my balance, drove the inside knee forward, and powered the outside ski thru heel. it was a pretty good first day, except the skis edges were not sharp enough. fixed that for the second day. stoked!

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Great!!!

[@abegold7037]

First thing I check when losing form is whether my feet are clinched. Relax your feet and quads. When I learned this became better at skiing, tennis and baseball.

[@OlivierPovel]

Brilliant explanation. As somebody says in one of your other video's: so easy to understand, so difficult to implement.

[@franciscooper4771]

Thanks again Deb. I find ankle flexion is the part of skiing that requires the most concentration; it's easy to forget and drift into the back seat when you ski as infrequently as I do. On another point, is that your private mountain, what have you done with all the people? Beautiful empty slopes. Such a tease!

[@russellweatherspoon9356]

Deb you are such a gifted teacher and ski enthusiast. ❤ keep on keeping on.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@emilferent23]

Love this distinction. Never thought of it

[@Allsystemsaredown]

That's really interesting. I don't remember anyone mentioning actively closing the ankle on the inside ski to me before. Like all nuggets of wisdom it makes perfect sense once someone alse points it out to you!

[@alasdaircrawford2695]

Love this. Yeah, I feel that forward could simply be leaning - whereas conscious flex is driving.

[@vladochiflidzhanov5045]

Hi! This is maybe one of the most precise and on-topic explanations of how it really works. Everyone speaks of fore/aft, but haven't heard very often someone speak of lateral difference (separation), which is actually the essential part. You put it here very well, that the right and left work differently, where we have permanent shift of shortening and extending legs (short inside/long outside leg), which is the essence of technical active skiing. I would just like to add something, that I noticed during skiing and working exactly on this lateral difference, which I would rather call SEPARATION. And that's just because the TIMING of both legs is different, opposed to moving TOGETHER simultaneously. All this said, I would rather compare the flow of a technical (carved) turn to BACKPEDALING on the bicycle. This is what my legs feel doing it. Might be best seen from the side (profile) and corresponds with the basic rule to 'start the turn with the inside leg, the outside follows'. Mathematically viewed shortening the inside leg makes the inside foot travel much less (being closer to the CoM or to a center of a circle), as opposed to extension of the outside leg, whose foot travels the whole radius of that circle, therefore arriving LATER to zero (transition), the result as a feeling - backpedaling. Of course rather exaggerated, though it's a very subtle difference in timing. This also reminds me of ski racers visualizing the track by the same movement with their hands. Not simultaneously, but rather like swimming front crawl. Just my thoughts, I would be glad to hear yours on that as well. Thanks for your always helpful videos, and best regards!

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Awesome!

[@vladochiflidzhanov5045]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6G2fnytbcdrkJo ... Guess I was right, without knowing it ... 6.05- 6.10"

[@paulc.8727]

Great work! one important thing said, the inside ankle needs to flex as well, which requires dorsiflexion and shin muscle being active

[@4plum]

Great video - love to see you demonstrate on a run or two, but I think you may already have a video showing this :-)

[@thisoledad1946]

Did you ever coach at mammoth? Or big bear? Or maybe I met you at a ski race 30 years ago. Best instruction on KZbin!!

[@michaelshenkel5244]

So "spot on" Deb!

[@jerl.980]

Thank you for the capsules all winter. Some of your instructions triggered some interesting awareness in my skiing and helped me get my younger son progressed in is skiing( he stopped skiing 6 years ago and started again at 18 this winter). Being a former instructor and racer ….and a dad i always search for ways to make skiing techniques more understandable for recreational skiers. I found some good stuff in yours videos and it help me with my son, so thank you 🙏. Different angles is always good. I would really like to ski and get lessons from you in the near future; how easy is it to get in contact with you ? I am way on the other side of the continent in eastern Canada.

[@sethjturok]

My question is similar to that of one of the other viewers below. You refer to bringing the outside leg behind your hip. Doesn't that result in excess tip lead on the inside ski? Also, you reference dorsiflexion of the inside foot, is it not the case that you should maintain dorsiflexion of both feet? Thanks for all of the great videos.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Expert ski movements are a matter of degree. The outside foot behind the hip is a matter of a very small degree. Anything taken too far will take you out of alignment and proper stacking. I focus on the dorsiflexion of the inside ankle foot.

[@Huttify]

Your boots are designed to angle your shins a bit forward. Mainly to bend your knee while skiing. When you extend your outer leg, that will force your leg behind your hip. If the leg is straight under or in front of your hip, you are fighting your boot the wrong way. Since you bend the inside knee the most, that ski needs to be in front of the outside.

[@sethjturok]

@@Huttify Thank you for the feedback.

[@strathound]

Thanks Deb. I mentioned in the comments of one of your other videos that I failed my PSIA Alpine II exam and the feedback was "too much ankle flexion." As a former racer, I found this really confusing, because I had always been told to press the shin into the tongue of the boot. And I was really lost and confused for about six months until someone explained "you probably were putting too much pressure on the front of the ski, resulting in the tails washing out in the finish of the turn." And then it made sense. My question is this ... what is the relationship between ankle flexion and "directing pressure along the length of the ski". And secondarily, when (in which phases of the turn) are we applying more pressure to the tips of the skis, which phases are we centered, and which phases are we a bit aft? And is it ok to be aft at the finish, for example. Second question, how does ankle flexion related to managing magnitude of pressure? When is the ankle most open? And when is the ankle most flexed in ideal skiing?

[@crimmeyd00d47]

You must have been a rubbish racer then if you need to ask these questions and as for too much flexion hahaha your boots were either noodles or you are forcing the turn too much not because of shin pressure but because of femur rotation....or even the examiner is totally wrong with his perception. I go back to my first sentence and is the reason for your turns washing out not because of too much shin pressure. This video isn't for 99% of skiers out there and definitely not for you.

[@Huttify]

Love these questions. I think a video, or a series of videos, is needed to answer them fully. I would love to have a go at some of them, but I guess someone just ruined that :) Waiting for Debs answer.

[@flutibg]

Basically you should be a little fore at the start of the turn, centered in the middle part and end up a little aft at the finish. Then pull your feet back in the transition and repeat. Like stroking the ski through the turn. Imagine pushing the outside ski edge from back to forward to cut the snow like a knife. Deb has a video on this here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jpjGpYJ6a7SekM0

[@Skedawg88]

@@flutibg Yes. The video is titled “Stroking the Ski”.

[@strathound]

@@flutibg- thanks. Just wondering why they can't say this in the PSIA training material? Would make it less of a mystery.

[@bistetechnologiesllc3647]

Ankle Flexion is a subset of Forward like hands frwd, arms frwd, head frwd and leaning frwd. Ankle flexion is the functional body position we utilize in skiing to be forward and in balance while carving a turn. Your thumbnail of Forward reminds me that there is the potential to be too far forward, despite the all too common propensity be too far back on the ski. Being forward, in balance, using ankle flexion, pressures the front of the ski to carve a turn effectively. Optimizing the fore/aft pressure, utilizing ankle flexion throughout the turn creates efficiency in the carve. The continuously adapting flexion pressure to the front of the ski throughout the turn is the key foundational component of rotary balance.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

This video shows two different ways to achieve a flexed ankle. That’s the point of the video

[@zipperboy2008]

Thanks Deb, could you cover forward lean, but from your ski boot. Racers seem to have a lot more forward lean than recreational. What’s an appropriate amount?

[@scuba453]

Hi I just discovered your channel and I am very impressed by your willingness to share your experience. Very cool and greatly appreciated! Re ankle fexibility...is there a simple test I could do at home barefoot to see if I have good/sufficient flexibility for skiing? Maybe you already have a video about this? Thanks.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Ya, testing ankle mobility is valid. I’m not an expert in that area however

[@gumbysmirks]

So, I've been skiing all my life. I took lessons for the heck of it when we were in Colorado. Basically the feedback I got was, "You're an advanced skiier, but we don't ski that way anymore". Meaning, when i learned to ski, the ski's were straight with no side cut. So now, when I ski I'm finding that if I'm not careful I always end up back seat toward the tail end of the turn as I transition over - as if the outside ski is going to come out from under me. Now, this happens more when I ski casually vs if I'm going down something really steep and I'm mindful of my balance. I'm not too sure if this feeling of "getting back" is natural or not or am I just transitioning wrong.

[@dimitriosnikolaidis4385]

Thanks Debby

[@Huttify]

Big kudos for going into this topic, Deb! How much force do you think your shin muscles are able to produce? How much force is required to flex your boots? Our shin muscles are not designed to angle the body compared to the ground. They are way to tiny and weak for that. They are made to angle the foot to the ground (not the body). And that is why we have the boots we have.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Not totally following you. Are you referring to ankle flexion and whether it is necessary or not?

[@Huttify]

@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong You stated that we use the shin muscles to dorsifex while skiing. I am just trying to tell that we don't. We use bigger muscle groups and our center of mass. It is impossible for the shin muscles to do this as long as we, and our boots, are designed the way they are.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

@@Huttify this video was addressing a very specific question about being forward versus ankle flexion. Ankle flexion is important when skiing, and I was drawing a distinction in how the two are different.

[@Huttify]

@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong ah, ok. Thanks for the video and explaining.

[@mgronda410]

Well, it was a simple explanation, and has confirmed on what I have been doing wrong the past ten years. Yes, I gained ankle flex. However, it happened only on the outside ski. I blame the instructors that put emphasis on using the outside ski. True, most of the weight is on the outside ski, especially at higher speeds when carving turns. But I never knew that I wasn’t flexing my inside ski at all. And did you notice what Deb said what you use and focus on with the inside leg: Using your shin and increasing the angle towards the ski. Why, so the ski does not get away in front of you. When I ski, I saw that. Some call it a scissors turn. But damn did I pay for it when I skied deep powder. As Deb explained, if we increase that shin angle on the inside skin, you maintain strength and alignment. Well, I haven’t and I took good wipeouts in powder, plus a few in deep crud. Thankfully, I didn’t get hurt on those wipeouts, but one of them I saw stars. I will take this slowly, ski greens and focus on this as I just break a long, strongly entrenched habit. Thanks Deb. This makes all the sense in the world.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Thanks for the comment

[@mgronda410]

​@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong My pleasure. This is going well today at Beaver Creek. I listen to you, I then think about how I did it on the chair, and I think what can I try to improve. What I found helpful is skiing with an open stance. It is happening, but not on blues yet. I am skiing 75% of the time on greens. Why ski on something if you can't correct your bad habits? So what I am doing is ensuring I am forward before starting, and focus on flexing that inside ankle. Day one was tough as I struggle but continued to try an execute it correctly. Today is where I tried a more open stance and it is happening. In comparison to yesterday, my outside ski was quiet and carving while my inside ski was skidding. Today, I know it is happening for two reasons: 1) both skis are quiet, 2) I feel pressure on my shin from the boot of the inside ski. I am even doing this at 30 mph. When no skis are dragging, you don't slow down. My turns are long radius turns and doing everything gradual. If I keep on skiing greens, think about what I did on the lift and focus what I can improve, I will establish a new, correct habit that will eventually become second nature. Then I will try to ski more challenging terrain. BTW... the other thing I noticed is my knee on the inside ski is more bent with the feel of pressure on my shin. This video is far more valuable than any ski lesson for me. Had I enrolled in another lesson, I would probably have never found the true fix. Telling one what you are doing wrong versus how to correct will is the problem I find with instructors. Deb has identified how to correct it. Thanks so much Deb. Coming from a 58 year old who is stuck on a plateau.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

@@mgronda410 awesome

[@Kyle_w]

Very inspiring!!!!

[@davidclymo7285]

Loved this .outside leg flexion should start at the ankle but also knees and hip , to stay in balance though the turn all joints need to flex. As for the inside leg , it is flex in all joints , but coming from a retraction of the inside foot bending ankle knee and hip. But retracting the foot up the outside leg.Why ..that foot is uphill though the turn it needs to be higher to stay unweighted.two footed skiing though the turn is BS. Thats way racers and coaches talk about right and left footed turns

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

I’m having trouble following your point exactly, sorry, trying. Let me try to put in my words to what you may be referring to. Both legs flex but to different degrees. We have three joints, ankle, knee, hip, we must respect how each joint flexes to maintain the proper alignment. We have two legs each with three joints, totaling 6 joints. We have three outside joints and three inside joints. The inside hip, knee, ankle progressively flex more through the turn than the three outside leg joints. The more the inside joints flex the more edge angle you get. The outside leg is longer than the inside yet the outside skill is flexed somewhat.

[@yourtravelswithbruce]

Thank you for this. I wish I'd seen it before skiing Blackcomb yesterday. Now when I ski the voice in my head keeps saying outside leg, roll ankles, balance, etc.

[@CostantinoLenzi]

this is a key movement

[@MRgoli2022]

Mỗi chút kiến ​​thức bạn chia sẻ đều giúp ích cho chúng tôi rất nhiều! Cảm ơn bạn

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Thank you

[@normalizedaudio2481]

I just ended up on Fischer equipment. Lot of people are using it. I like what I have found.

[@Gyuresssz]

You ooze of being a teacher, tutor, mentor

[@MisterHughes]

Yeah, the "lunge-lean" as I call introduces hugely obstructive stretch-tensions in the quads and calves, just as the reverse over-stiffens and tenses the hams and the abs, ruining any chance of developing sensitivity, and of applying power effectively through the turn with flexion and extension. The biggest enemy of dorsiflexion is my constant nemesis, students who have bought boots that are way too stiff for their strength and/or ability level.

[@Huttify]

I think you mix quads and hamstring. If not, I am buildt totally different from you :) But yeah, I am of the same opinion.

[@jpcambre]

Do you have any advice on how to keep the shin pressure and leaning forward on steeper and sometimes icy slopes? I am able to keep it on blues, but my form goes either centered or a little back on black diamonds. I keep an athletic stance while fighting to keep my heels under me with my feet pressed. Can't seem to bring my hips up.

[@mogulmayhem]

I've watched all of your videos this winter from Vermont, and I'm still struggling to figure out ankle flexion. If I fly to Toas, can I book a lesson?

[@igorgoga7985]

Deb, pls explain the modern approach to counter (asking in every comment....)

[@rodeoclown.futurist]

Changed skis this year - from 2005 K2 Rictor's to Blizzard Rustler's. My mechanics/technique needs to morph. I was unable to control the oscillation up front, the shovel was biting and releasing causing chater. Does forward leverage on the outside leg need to decrease with the Rustler's camber? Boy, I hope that makes sense. Thank you in advance for any insights.

[@Mars_Life_and_Beings]

Where can I get one of those sweaters?

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

skidelaine.com/

[@KenpoOjoko]

I like the topic! Would you dorsiflex your inside foot ankle and pull your inside leg back so the boot/ski tips almost line up (but the inside foot is naturally slightly forward)? Or are you saying you move your outside foot slightly behind?

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

You can move in a few ways to end with the outcome, having your foot be slightly behind your hip, very slightly, a matter of degree.

[@KenpoOjoko]

@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong Thanks, Deb!

[@jathompson37]

My nemesis fore-aft balance!!! I’m guessing if you have tight achilles it can prevent you from getting forward correctly. (I only feel my ski properly engage if I an insane amount forward). Does that mean heel lifts are needed? 🤔

[@BrokeAgain]

Wait there still snow? wow

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Yep😉

[@JanosKoranyi]

Good effort to explain this topic, but not at all good enough as I see it. I think that it is crucial to understand that a boot-tongue pressure on both side is the most important basic tool for downhill skiing. Ankle flexion does not equal to boot-tongue pressure however!! Ankle flexion is only a movement of the ankle, it does not mean necessarily that you also have boot-tongue pressure! But you can easily feel whether you have this pressure or not and how strong this force is. As soon you lose these boot-tongue pressures, you risk to lose your balance backwards over your skis. In this video you talk about 2 ways how to create boot-tongue pressures. Putting your body mass ahead of your balls of your feet and dorsiflexion, which equals to pressing your feet upwards in the ski-boots. There is a third way of creating boot-tongue pressure by your ski-edges. When you traverse, the gravity on your body-mass pushes your body-weight into the boot and if your edge angles are high enough, this will increase both the ski-pressure and the boot-tongue pressure. In this case your body mass will be situated behind your balls of your feet.

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

The point of this video was very specific. Addressing a question from a subscriber distinguishing the difference between being forward and ankle flexion. I think the difference is clear in this video. I state the intention of the video in my opening.

[@mtadams2009]

Sadly that did not help. I get the leaning forward and the leaning back but after that I lost the point. I personally always keep shin pressure on the front of my boots and that seems to work. Usually I get what you mean but not this time. More than likely my bad. Take care

[@DebArmstrongSkiStrong]

Always more to learn and understand with skiing. You know the concept “the more you know the more you realize you don’t know”. Still more to learn here. Keep watching my videos😉

[@mtadams2009]

@@DebArmstrongSkiStrong I agree I just missed your point. Take care and I will keep watching your a great skier for sure.