This Jet Was BETRAYED by Canada! - The Avro Arrow

[@gs637]

The way the Avro Arrow was terminated, and everything related to the project destroyed - including all advanced design infrastructure , lab and test equipment that could have supported further aerospace developments - is a BIG SHAME, and huge loss for Canada!

[@TheOwenMajor]

Canadian manufacturers were rife with Soviet spies, and we had been the source for leaks previously. The aircraft was technologically outdated in the west. While the info was fairly useless in the western world, the Soviets still would have benefitted from it. With out active use of the data, it made more sense to destroy it than let it be stolen by the Russians.

[@gs637]

@@TheOwenMajor Hey...that does not explain why they destroyed even the labs instrumentation, and made sure to kill any chance for any further aerospace developments in Canada. And Soviet spies were found everywhere, in much "higher" places.... but that did not lead to the termination of much bigger enterprises & government organizations, right? So I'm not buying this argument.

[@TheOwenMajor]

@@gs637 It is simply nonsense to say it killed our aerospace industry. Canada has one of the largest aerospace industries in the world. I don't think you have any realistic concept of the industry or situation. Information without active guardianship is at a much higher chance of being stolen. Avro shut down, nobody wanted the stuff so it was destroyed. Avro was just one of many many aerospace companies that went under after the end of WW2. The simple reality is these companies grew on wartime contracts and died when those contracts disappeared. Avro was NOT the Canadian aerospace industry.

[@gs637]

@@TheOwenMajor Careful..., I said that what was done killed any chance for further aerospace developments, not "killed the aerospace industry". The Canadian aerospace industry consists of some US/France/UK owned equipment suppliers (engines, landing gear, avionics, simulators, helicopter stuff) and one Canadian airframer that is only able to produce business jet & small/medium transport aircraft . So, I do not see how any new cutting edge Canadian development, comparable with Avro Arrow, could ever take place in the next xx years. You clearly do not comprehend the repercussions of the destructions which took place, apparently with intention, when Arrow was terminated. Anyway: you are certainly free to have your own opinions, whatever they may be. Just do dot think that others must share them. Take care.

[@TheOwenMajor]

@@gs637 If our aerospace industry relied on a single project in the 50's to be successful, it was never much of an industry. Regardless I'm not sure why you are placing the bar so high. Canada isn't a UK/France/USA. We are a small country that helps our allies. Canada was a country of 15 million back then, even back then that was basically just the population of California.

[@sethcarriere]

My grandfather worked for Avro designing the navigation system for the Arrow. After the scrapping of the program he moved to California and helped design the navigation systems for the Apollo missions for NASA.

[@orangeops8875]

That's really cool! Thanks forcsharing!👍

[@Boeing_hitsquad]

Jim Chamberlin, Owen Maynard and Co are the reason the West won the space race. If the Arrow wasn't cancelled, the Soviets would have won the space race. Before Jim, Mercury didn't even work... Then he built Gemini and Owen made the lunar lander while Jim made Apollo work. (Even though he made Gemini to go to the moon too) NASA calls Jim their most important employee ever.

[@srice8959]

@@Boeing_hitsquad Because I don’t really know anything about that, and I’m sure they was a huge part of it, but we’re they really more important than Von Braun?? I know how important he was for our Rocket Development. I’ll definitely have to go look them up that’s for sure. I really love learning about history.

[@raymondsheffield5366]

Half right. If THE ARROW was left to succeed, CANADA WOULD HAVE put the first MAN ON THE MOON. WE, would have successfully developed and pioneered the SPACE PROGRAM. No cancelation of THE ARROW needed. Period.

[@maryrafuse3851]

@@raymondsheffield5366 Maybe not on the moon but we would have a hell of an aircraft industry today. Diefenbaker was chief of all traitors politicians. I guess the US & Canada both know about these unqualified and bungling people.

[@criticalevent]

Whether you believe the myth of the Avro Arrow's performance or not, one thing is a fact, Diefenbaker irreparably damaged Canada when he literally destroyed the program. We lost just about every person educated in the fields of aerospace engineering and avionics. NASA and US defense contractors immediately swooped in and hired them away, those families moved to the US and they never came back. The brain drain on the Canadian economy had lasting effects that are still felt today.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

They gambled and lost - arguably should have been canceled earlier when it became clear the ICBMs were the real threat.

[@criticalevent]

@@Justanotherconsumer A cancelled order is not the same as literally sending a wrecking ball in to smash the place up and dumping the pieces in a lake. to add insult to injury, Canada spent more money buying US fighters to fill the same role.

[@kauske]

Make no mistake, what happened was intended. The US wanted our aircraft industry dead, they kill the defence industry of all their allies to make them dependant upon them. Look at the UK and other NATO members, constant undermining. Diefenbaker is a traitor who gutted the Canadian aerospace industry at the behest of the US.

[@matthill5658]

@@criticalevent Justanotherconsumer is a Diefenbaker apologist, judging by their other comments on this video. Diefenbaker is basically a traitor to his own country. I'm not even a Canadian, and I can see that.

[@zedfan4598]

Canada was never going to be competition with their neighbors to the west and south

[@dustinnichol1311]

The Arrow has always been a heartbreaking story for me as a Canadian and as a professional in aviation. "Betrayal" was the correct word to choose.

[@den264]

The documentary has errors. It stated that Woods was the only test pilot to ever fly the plane. Totally wrong. For exposure reasons the management decided to bring in WW2 ace Januze Jankowski to become the first man to fly the plane. Also the presenter kept saying "home grown talent" again wrong. There were far more English , British engineers on the project than Canadian. Yes the machinists etc. had far more home grown Canadian than any other nationality but the major designers were British.

[@brianbrooks8692]

My father-in-law worked there!

[@brianlepage]

@@den264 Thank you for your historical contribution to the History of the AVRO ARROW.

[@rollydoucet8909]

I was fortunate enough to see the Arrow in flight. I have a piece of AVRO memorabilia in my office.

[@charlesburgoyne-probyn6044]

One made by the USA time to be honest about these things

[@w5bbaker]

As a 74-year-old Canadian son of a WWII Handley Page Halifax Bomber pilot, this one of the greatest tragedies in Canadian history. Certainly, it is the greatest tragedy in our military, aviation and aerospace history. During my lifetime, I cannot think of a more significant governmental error and it came up in conversation with my best friend growing up yesterday evening. Obviously it is still a sore point in Canada, even today. I sincerely hope that that answers your question from a Canadian perspective. Bill Baker

[@keithwebb9839]

I can think of one..... Justin Trudeau

[@isaackurulok]

@@keithwebb9839 your not wrong but he was not always bad

[@raydunn2582]

@@keithwebb9839 Diefenbaker was Conservative. They're still trying to turn us into an American-style, every man for himself society.

[@smgdfcmfah]

@@isaackurulok Yes he was and is. He's the worst thing that's ever happened to this country by a factor of 10,000, and that includes his commie father.

[@pepebeezon772]

Annnnnd turns out bombers, which interceptors are designed to intercept, were actually replaced by ICBMs and SLMBs. So it was clearly not an error.

[@donnahays1534]

As a Canadian this is a black spot in our history. The neighbors were way more involved in stopping this than you showed. Lots of side dealing and secret political meetings. If they couldn't control and profit, they would kill it. Canadian engineers were brilliant and yes we could have had a space program. No one I know thinks scrapping this project was the right move for Canada.

[@sleelofwpg688]

The Arrow is just one more example of the US proving they are shitty excuses for friends. They forced this or you can guess all the petty trade and military treaty bullshit they woukd have pulled. Our entire relationship is the US pissing in our faces and telling us it's raining.

[@littlebigcommentaries9833]

Cakers lol It wasn't all the US's fault it was cancelled and you know it. It's the same problem that plagues us even now. We are our own worst enemy. In so many cases thanks to our leadership with the assistance of typical Canadian behaviours this is evidenced. We can't help but huff our own farts either which doesn't help. This was almost half a century ago and we still can't let go. The way we talk about this thing you'd think it was the greatest aircraft of all time. It was cutting edge to be sure but the greatest it was not. In fact the technology and research that allowed it go supersonic in the first place was developed by the Germans. The only thing that this gave to the globe was the fly-by-wire. We need to stop doing this sort of thing. It's in part why we have fallen off so far despite the incessant chants that we are so technologically advanced. Coming from a country where every have not province had businesses that only in the last five years adopted RFID as common standard of payment at point of sale. Our communications and networking infrastructure in these provinces is also lacking to point to further proof how slow on the uptake we actually are. Don't even get me started on the Canadarm. Points of pride, hubris and frustration that blind us as a country.

[@ayhay4686]

I know it sounds demotivating and short sighted for what this program could have meant for the Canadian brand and economy for if this program would have seen the light Canada would have dominated the aerospace and defense market which means the Avro would have bagged every contract there's in this range leaving nothing for other aerospace companies hence creating more jobs and probably more money to finance other advanced programs.

[@terrytigger]

Yup if we had of made this, we’d be a world power and answer to no one 🤬

[@MarkMiller304]

@@terrytigger but now we’re America’s bi t ch, sigh.

[@teddyclifton9101]

I was an air traffic controller in training in early 1959. Our classroom was in the Genair hanger at Malton airport. We witnessed the last flights of the Arrow just before the project was cancelled .We saw the houses being towed on flatbed trucks by the airport that the employees had lived in . My own career was affected by the decision to scrap the project. The noise generated by the aircraft on takeoff was astounding.

[@SodiumSyndicate]

My mother was born in 1959.

[@rollydoucet8909]

I saw the Arrow fly in 1958.

[@John....luvoldcars]

Me too.. too .​@@rollydoucet8909

[@wesmcdonell8310]

I’m a Canadian patriot and this magnificent marvel of Canadian engineering always brings me to tears . Diefenbaker was a weak link here falling prey to outside influence, he cratered just when we needed strong leadership and a love of canada and the brilliant minds that created this beautiful aircraft. It was a mistake to terminate this proud symbol of Canada’s pride .

[@frankpeters935]

another weak conservative i never voted conservative again they are just a puppit to the united states

[@backagain5216]

It’s a symbol of what has happened to our country. The USA is only our friend as long as we let them lead. They take all our natural resources and sell the finished product at 3x the cost we sold it. They recognize our dollar only as long as it’s weak. I’m not a huge fan of them.

[@CharlesReece-nr2wr]

Yes the devout christian Diefenbaker was out west breeding with anything and everything while Canada could have been a world leader on not just Arrow but many things.....a steven harper before its time stagnant....

[@nonenone4880]

I wonder how much Diefenbaker got paid.

[@warfarenotwarfair5655]

There was no interference, Diefenbaker was against the military and wanted to selfishly lean on Americans for defense in turn destroying Canada's ability to produce fighter aircraft.

[@dennisbacon1595]

I am a Canadian, born and raised, and am continually embarrassed by our short sighted and self serving leaders who somehow ??? continue to be elected. The Avro Arrow is the tip of the ice burg. Look at the travesty we are going through now!!! Thank you so much for the video. I have always wondered what the truth was about the Avro.

[@machupikachu1085]

How do these scumbags continually get elected since the 1950's? Do they elect themselves?

[@muadhib001]

So what is that incredible travesty we're going through now? Please elaborate, I'm interested

[@crush42mash6]

I agree

[@Kj16V]

The UK's Conservative government: "Hold my beer"

[@Northwoods62]

@@yyy-875 He'll find other ways to fail. Likely not as much as Trudeau but he will. It's inevitable when you're the face of a country.

[@Dr_MKUltra]

Avro Arrow was and is still a legend. A testament to Canadian technical prowess.

[@WhiteWolf65]

I agree. The Arrow was a gamechanger, and it would have made history if it could have flown as designed. " As Designed " ??? The Avro Orenda engines had not been mounted to the Arrow, and it almost broke Mach 2. The J47-GE-7's (a poor 3rd choice) only had 5,000 lbf (22 kN) thrust, where the Orenda 14's had 7,500 lbf (33,000 N) thrust. The engine specifically designed for the Arrow, the Orenda PS.13 Iroquois, was rated at 19,250 lbf (85.6 kN) dry, 25,000 lbf (111 kN) with afterburners. If RL206 had flown ONCE, with the Orenda engines, it would not have been killed. If it had flown with the Iroquois engines, it would have been unstoppable. And it would have made the Bomarc, a colossal failure, look like the BAD choice that it was. WhiteWolf McBride, Ottawa, Canada

[@MikeWeiss-oy4sc]

A dark spot in Canadian politics.

[@zedfan4598]

Bullshit

[@weipoo]

@@MikeWeiss-oy4sc thats what the CCP would like you to believe ha they got you and your kind soo easilly.

[@brianlepage]

@@WhiteWolf65 Thank you for providing the technical facts of which few are aware. My father-in-law worked on designing the engine fins at the Malton, Ontario Orenda Engine Plant.

[@ghostblue9598]

As a Canadian I'd just like to personally thank you for making this video on this amazing beauty of a Fighter Jet it is truly one of our cou trys greatest shames and a complete and utterly stupid decision that was made by our government to scrap the Avro Arrow much appreciated for this amazing tribute video

[@edcrabb]

Here Here! I am American, and I am ashamed of what influence my country may have had on your Government to completely dump the Arrow. If 1/10 of what is portrayed in this video is accurate, this aircraft should have been built, and sold all over the world! I am so sorry for all of those workers that lost their jobs. What a darn shame!!!

[@cskvision]

As a Canadian as well, it's utterly embarrassing and foolish our short-sighted government decided to eradicate the Arrow. What a wonderful dream come true had they decided to give the program a renascence in the 2010s

[@eduarditogonzales4485]

@@edcrabb You are a true stand up person.

[@wartmcbeighn]

@@cskvision a renaissance in 2010?? would never have happened, who would produce such a limited aircraft?

[@FluxDeimos]

The arrow was dumped because its role no longer existed and it wasnt GOOD for anything else, the failure was our own. It couldnt dog fight, it was ONLY for intercepting long range, high speed nuclear bombers and those no longer existed because of icbms.

[@john_hunter]

Born and raised in Canada. Every time I'm reminded of the Arrow I get so unbelievably mad. I think the ultimate reason the project was scrapped was due to pressure from the US. It was a threat to their aerospace industry, so it had to go.

[@lewiscarey6984]

YOU NAILED IT!!! 👍

[@BuckyBeaver666]

100% correct.

[@vicr.7001]

Utter nonsense! This aircraft was a very long way from operational service. It was a huge money pit in which to toss billions of taxpayer money with no hope of ever selling one. The US F-4 Phantom was already flying and could eat the Arrows lunch. The F-4 sold over 5,200 copies around the world. Most commentators here weren’t likely alive in 1958 and just keep parroting this the same old nationalistic rubbish about how wonderful the thing was. Yeah, Ann Murray. I worked in the industry and over the years had a few Avro engineering types as my bosses. They admitted it wasn’t any where near operational service. Looked pretty, but had a radar cross section the size of the Empire State building. Just what you don’t need as a fighter/interceptor. How many CF-100’s did we sell huh?

[@warfarenotwarfair5655]

Another stupid comment from another ignorant Canadian. Diefenbaker was against military spending and sought to lean on Americans for Canada's defense as we still see in 2023. If you don't like that truth then feel free to pick up a weapon and man a post 😂

[@thitran1362]

@Zakir Siddiqui but it was pretty obvious that the US was involved......

[@aaronstandingbear]

When I was10 we lived in Malton only a few miles from the Airport where the Arrow was tested and one afternoon I remember looking up and the Arrow flew over our house fairly low on an approch and it had two parachutes deployed already. This struck me intensly as a kid as I had never seen such an aircraft before. When younger, 3 or 4 we lived not far from Dehaviland and a Sabre jet buzzed our little house out in the fields not far from the airfield. It was no more than a few hundred feet off the turf and it was a shock as it blasted by. There were no built up sub divisions then like now. I'm now 73 and these images are burned into my memory banks clear as day.

[@raymondsheffield5366]

WOAH! That's very cool MALTON BROTHER. I'm younger than you (40's) but I totally feel ya. I guess it's a MALTON THING.

[@plane_guy6051]

Wow - that is quite a story and I can see how it would be clear as day in your memory. That's a very cool memory to have for sure.

[@jonmce1]

When I was a kid in my home town I saw the arrow fly fairly low at about the height you see commercial jets just before they get to the airport. It had two chase planes easily visible with it an F86 and a CF 100.

[@aaronstandingbear]

@@raymondsheffield5366 in the mid 50s we lived in one of the wartime houses at a corner next to a field and creek as it was mostly farms then. I had an uncle who was in the airforce at Dehaviland. We went to a catholic school I think called our Lady of the Airways, where one day I went into the church and lit a whole whack of votiv candles. Nobody was in there but me. later the priest came into class and asked for the candle lighter to confess up and I readily stood up. He took me across the way to the church and beat me with a stick and left me wondering what the heck I did to deserve that. Early distrust of the church for me then. Just some other memories of living there in Malton.

[@bruceelliott6426]

My wife and I both grew up in Malton. I remember sitting in class at Malton Public School and looking out the window as the Arrow took off. Hearing the sonic boom and the house shake. My dad worked at Avro, had a fight with the foreman and got fired on the Monday before Black Friday. He walked over to Orenda Engines and started work right away. Worked there till he retired. My wife's dad also worked at Avro and lost his job on Black Friday.

[@tumakbaluk]

Man! You honor us Canadians and I hold an immense amount of respect for your story telling ability and accuracy. I really appreciate the rare footage you used and the careful explination of the politics which killed the program. Thank you, thank you, thank you! && Your closing comments of where our industry could have gone had the project succeeded I feel, is right on the mark. You rock!

[@donaldstanfield8862]

Such awesome achievements and sad to see the US smashed and grabbed the industry, at least it seems that's what happened.

[@Legion_Victrix]

As a Canadian, I always feel very salty about the Arrow. I wish we would have shown a very long and clear middle finger to who ever was behind this decision.

[@ourcolonel1685]

Boeing and Lockheed brought pressure to bear because Avro Canada was a decade ahead.

[@terranboot9405]

John Diefenbaker could be blamed I guess. Not the last PM to screw us on an jet deal sadly.

[@sc1338]

@@ourcolonel1685 stop blaming companies for doing what they’re supposed to do. Blame your own government. besides Canada just couldn’t really afford it.

[@kyrie26]

"whoever" is joined as one word.

[@Fatal_Inertia]

Your government unfortunately

[@ajmolitor9223]

Cancelling the Arrow was the worst decision by any Canadian Government in all of history. The follow on work would have made Canada a major aerospace influencer for all time. Just look at where the people involved with the program went on to work and the tech they were involved with after the Arrow was cancelled.

[@raynus1160]

Nah. I think interning Japanese-Canadians during WW2 and seizing their property was the worst decision by any Canadian government in all of Canada's history. Absolutely shameful. Canada _is_ a major aerospace influencer & has been since the Arrow's cancellation. The Arrow was an expensive endeavor with limited marketability & Diefenbaker was prudent to cancel it. (That said, the completed airframes should've been spared for museum pieces).

[@keithwebb9839]

Naw.... electing Justin Trudeau was the worst decision

[@raynus1160]

@@keithwebb9839 I capitulate. Absolutely.

[@pepebeezon772]

It was one of the rare good decision actually

[@lucasokeefe7935]

Though maybe not justified in being made, having all research and airframes ordered destroyed is one of the stupidest decisions in aviation history

[@FoundAndExplained]

i never understand why they just cant let them be there

[@Laurence0227]

@@Eidolon1andOnly that's what they say, they even prodocued alleigations that Soviet learned our shit to built Mig-25 but it is complete BS, some people have this uneducated guess that the then Priminister was paid by American arms delaer to do so

[@volcano.mitchell]

It is

[@cabin4999]

they were destroyed by the Canadian government for fears it would be discovered by the Soviet Union, which would have scared them even more than it would intruige them had they actually acquired the Arrow.

[@lucasokeefe7935]

@@Eidolon1andOnly Yeah, that aspect of it is understandable. However, destroying the evidence didn't stop the Soviets getting nukes, and they just out and bought reliable jet engine tech from a bankrupt Britain. The MiG-25 was an entirely Soviet designed and produced aircraft, because they had engineers that were some of the best in the world. And Sputnik really should have cemented the inevitability of a comparable design into the heads of the idiots in charge.. Politics though, whadda ya gonna do?

[@WonderfulAircraft]

This is hard to watch as a Canadian aviation enthusiast. I often find myself wondering what could've been for Canada's aviation industry if this had been successful

[@yourlocalmilkman916]

Still would fail it was unecesarry when gary powers incident happened cus sams were improving

[@operatorismail6038]

Same

[@Ushio01]

It's a weird jet alright. Built as an interceptor but was very large both longer and heavier than an F-111! but had a weapon payload of either a measly 8 AIM-4 Falcon's or just 3 AIM-7 Sparrows. The USAF F-106 was half the weight while carrying 5 missiles and was both faster and had a higher climb rate and service ceiling while being vastly cheaper. But you know the real reason it was cancelled? This aircraft was built to stop USSR bombers nuking cities but in 1958 the USSR laid down it's first ballistic missiles sub which then commissioned in 1960 making the nuclear bomber threat obsolete while not known to the public at the time it's clear the US and Canada's governments both knew and so this aircraft that was still in testing was no longer needed.

[@codypallin5452]

More if Canada hadn't just dropped their engineers like rocks after the project cancelation... we lost so many great minds to nasa

[@sideburngthepeacebringer27]

Also the RAF showed interest in the Arrow until the 1957 Defence White Paper, I suppose that was another reason why the Arrow was cancelled.

[@garretttroester5943]

I am Canadian and my father remembers the avro program and makes him angry when you bring it up. It was a short sighted move as the jobs it would have kept and created as well as selling the jet to allies could have put a large bump in the economy. It could have jump started a aerospace boom in Canada instead it killed it.

[@randomrazr]

is their one arrow left hidden ina. barn somewherE?

[@rollydoucet8909]

@@randomrazr There are several rumors regarding one 'saved' Arrow. Leading credence to that is the fact that in all the photos of the first few Arrows being dismantled (scrapped) there is one that is obviously missing. One such rumor is that a plane was dismantled and trucked away in pieces to an undisclosed location.

[@randomrazr]

@@rollydoucet8909 if it was ever found again and released to the public eye. would trudea immediately confiscate it and destroy it?

[@jessejames95f150]

not only american pressure but liberal government being elected

[@stephenpaquet]

I’m a 65-year-old Canadian Air Force brat, in other words my father was an aero engine mechanic in the Canadian Air Force. I will never forget when Diefenbaker cancelled The Aero my father said he should be strung up. We call it black Friday up here because 30 to 50,000 people were laid off overnight. It’s not so much that the plane was cancelled it’s the engineering team was broke up and ended up in NASA putting the Americans on the moon and in Europe building the Concorde. The head engineer was a true genius. It breaks my heart just watching this video, of what could’ve been. Diefenbaker was a country bumpkin from the prairies and had no vision for the country or anything else. Maybe even quite gullible because he bought into the Eisenhower View that the plane was dead and we needed missiles. just like the video says two years later they bought the Voodoo. Not a bad plane but still half that of the Aero.

[@corybjarnason218]

Based on your fathers experience you should know that the voodoo is a fighter and the Arrow was an interceptor that could really only do one role. The Arrow was dead on arrival. The only tragedy was the loss of Avro Canadas engineering team.

[@come4t_a_bull]

​@@corybjarnason218- you're forgetting the weapons platform... just like the Phantom II the 105 would've been capable as a fighter. The system in development for it was a "fire & forget" missile system and the Arrow had the speed to out run, and out climb the opponent. The Voodoo stood no chance against it... if it performed as projected of course. It was not a "gunfighter"... same as the F4.

[@devinsword5777]

speaking as a Canadian, this jet remains to this day a symbol of Canadian nation pride. in a day and age where many question what it means to be Canadian, the arrow is still a focal point of Canadian pride. just imagine what it could have been, what we could have been. and almost where.

[@imapseudonym1403]

It shouldn't be a point of pride, it should be a point of shame for us. Not the aircraft itself, that was a marvel of aerospace engineering at the time, but he fact that Diefenbaker, that noodle spined coward, bent the knee to the Yanks and obeyed their every order. He should have told them to GF themselves and finished the greatest flying weapons platform ever designed.

[@That90sShow]

@@imapseudonym1403 kinda like what Trudeau does today. He makes you proud to be a Canadian! 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@bt4kings]

@@That90sShow just proof that the Canadian liberals have been fucking up the country for a long time now

[@semperfidelis2970]

I don't think it's a source of pride for anybody but a certain generation. You talk to these younger generations and they have absolutely no idea what you're talking about because it isn't taught it isn't referenced. It isn't told about. Just shameful

[@imapseudonym1403]

"You talk to these younger generations and they have absolutely no idea what you're talking about " You could have stopped right there. Most of them are as dumb as bricks.

[@spreadeagled5654]

The Arrow was a cool and advanced aircraft for its time and was the pride of Canada. 🇨🇦 As it was with the BAC TSR-2, it’s a shame that the prevailing politics never gave it a chance. What a blow to the Avro company and the Canadian aircraft industry which led to the “brain drain” of Avro’s highly skilled engineering personnel to emigrate to the aircraft and aerospace industries of the USA.

[@pricelessppp]

And thanks to politics. We all had cool concepts and planes back then.

[@spreadeagled5654]

@@pricelessppp , Yes, that includes the awesome XB-70.

[@Karl-Benny]

The SAAB DRAKE had already done what Avro was suppose to do

[@112deeps]

Looks similarity to Foxbat?

[@baronvonbeedy7987]

Take a look at the Arrow's nose and the TSR=2 windscreen and then look at BAC's Tornado 15 years later. Math compliments itself. Also BAC owned Avro Canada and all the math for both aircraft.

[@TimothyBlairMusic]

A great uncle by marriage, worked on the Aero and even though he had crippling dementia, If you mentioned the Aero ,he would light up and could talk about it for hours. As a Canadian I believe it was a political move that destroyed the Canadian aerospace industry. I believe it was a mistake made by a weak and fearful government of the day. Afraid of it's own progress and bullied by it's neighbor to the south.

[@w8stral]

Gah... this fool needs a history lesson. Reason Canada's Avro +M2.0 air frame is same reason why the USA's +M3.0 YF-12 met its doom. ICBM's eliminated their jobs as the bombers disappeared. Politics is just a lie.

[@w8stral]

@@markneuman2070 Well, any other engineering firm, but not aerospace as last I checked North American, Lockheed, Convair etc all had their equivalent or superior Avro Arrow projects canceled at the same time. Well, a couple of said projects held on for a couple more years before cancellation, but the ABSURD conspiracy notion the Avro Arrow as somehow a catastrophe is absurd... ICBM's were a catastrophe, saving Billion upon BILLIONS of taxpayer $$$ for the USA/Canadian governments over having to fund uber expensive Mach 2.5-->3.5 bomber interceptors and their crews. Do remember the USA version of the Avro Arrow was flying at mach 3 with similar range. You may wish to look up A-12 which finally gave up the ghost as an interceptor and became the venerable SR-71 which itself was HORRIFICALLY expensive. From the outset it was seen as an interceptor

[@kumiq17]

it sounds more like you making a excuse for canadas continued bad moves. your own army wanted them destroyed and that specific jet was made a lot less useful by icbms as the us predicted. Your country was the one that just destroyed everything in the change.

[@annapearl3071]

You are very right

[@johannavandenbrink4896]

I think being bullied by our southern neighbor was the big factor.

[@derpderpington100]

Yesterday I went to a model airplane convention in Hamilton, Ontario. There were at least 10 Arrow models on display, in various sizes and scales, and I lost count of how many people were wearing sweatshirts and t-shirts with the Arrow. Great to see the Canadians haven;t forgotten about it, eh?

[@hughmartell7987]

EH!!?🤣

[@ronaldschmuck9627]

Finally a good explanation to our Arrows story, I was lucky enough to have actually been allowed to go through the A.V. Roe factory in Malton Ontario. as a 12 year old air cadet, and see the Arrow in production and meet one of the pilots, I still have the booklet I received on the Arrow and it's production on that trip from Guelph Ont. Canada. Now at 80 years old I still have many memories of that day, and a very fond spot in my heart for the ARROW and of course, not so fond a spot for "Dief the thief" who we all blamed for it's destruction of not only the Arrow but as Canada being a leader in aircraft design. Thanks for your presentation Ron S

[@jerseybound717]

But its not a good explanation even the title says betrayed when we were ordered by the us to dismantle it. Or face a possible war with them The US threatened us lol. Of course they won't admit it and that's why political issues are a big part of this mystery. We never betrayed it we even tried to sell it to the US after the fact they didn't want us having it. lol They didn't want us shooting nuked down over Alaska they wasn't them shot down over Canada not their country. Dig way deeper into this lots of info on the dark web about this project that was unreleased and is constantly taken down off the surface web.

[@James_Knott]

That factory is now the International Centre, where many trade and other shows are held.

[@den264]

Do you agree that the presenter on this video got it wrong when he said Woody was the only pilot to ever fly the Arrow ! I have the book "the fall of the Arrow" and it clearly states that Woodman was superseded by the vetren Polish ace fighter jet pilot Juravinki , or "Jura" as his colleagues named him. The decision was made because of the high profile Jura had in Europe as a top class pilot at that time.

[@den264]

​@The Music Sanctuary I was a very good, well made series, or movie. I Watched it it total as a movie only last year. Yes, big Dan Aykroyd was excellent in it. He played the part of the young high energy whiskey slugging product manager. He instilled belief in the "all male" engineering staff. The movie you recall, inserted a female engineer in to the plot to appease the Folk elements in our society. Truth of the matter, is that women contributed only at a clerical, or cleaning level in that project. But the producers placed this female concoction at the highest level of engineering output. Making her look like the only one in the firm who knew what she was doing. Ruined an otherwise excellent movie.

[@terranceamyotte3076]

​@den he said Woodman was the only Canadian Air Force pilot to fly the craft, which is correct. The other pilot was Polish and from the Polish air force retired so he was actually a civilian at the time of the test flight.

[@ManateeTunes]

I live in Canada, and every once in a while I drive by a road called 'Avro Arrow Road'. It brings tears to my eyes.

[@IlienCarriere-vd1uz]

Where exactly is this road? I've lived in Malton many years. My Dad worked on the Arrow

[@ManateeTunes]

@@IlienCarriere-vd1uz It's up by Parry Sound, near Georgian Bay. I've been told it's because a lot of the people who worked on the plane had cottages up around there, so they wanted to dedicate a road to their work. You can look it up on Google Maps for a more precise location if you want.

[@amadeo_serrano]

One mistake I noticed regarded the test pilots. Jack Woodman was the only Canadian Forces pilot to fly the Arrow but the main test flights were flown by Jan Zurakowski, brought in especially for this project.

[@stanm1977]

I am not sure that he was the ONLY one Canadian pilot. I know for a fact that Kack Woodman was the first Canadian pilot, though.

[@sunspot478]

Bar none, the most beautiful plane that's ever been created. As a proud Canadian, I am so disappointed that this marvel of technology never made it to service. It was so ahead of everything else out there. I, along with many, choose to believe one got away and will eventually be found. And not because I want it to go into service, but because it would unite Canada in a way that's never been done before.

[@den264]

Why would the government not think to save at least one complete airplane for posterity. So our children, and grandchildren could see it and take pride in the fact that Canada designed and built this phenomenon machine.

[@dmav522]

As a canadian Avgeek, this is an excellent overview of the life and times of the arrow! Well done!

[@hypergalactic6527]

Agreed

[@taproom113]

#Me2 ... ^v^

[@edcrabb]

I am American, ex-military, and I think that the Canadian Avro Arrow, was ahead of its time, and should have been built, refined and should still be an interceptor today! Killing that aircraft was just STUPID! I think there was some Hanky Panky going on to influence the Canadian Government to kill the plane. What country kills something so good for the country, and all those jobs? Probably one that has been told "hey we will defend you with our new super cool missile defense system, you don't need that Arrow, just write us a BIG FAT CHECK!" Hmm?? Probably my Government got the Avro Arrow killed.

[@donaldstanfield8862]

@@edcrabb Right, I feel terrible cause seems likely the US smashed the whole thing, then stole the workforce. Makes me sick to think of it...

[@dmav522]

@@edcrabb correct, plus the same bullshit arguments as used today to kill the manned fighter

[@mrzoov3661]

A hyper advanced fighter jet hidden in the mountains, that’s probably the coolest piece of canadian folklore I’ve ever heard. If it does exist I hope someone finds it someday...

[@wartmcbeighn]

It doesn't

[@grownjohnboy]

CNE-4. Hangar 3.

[@frankroy9423]

Just to let you know, ALL today's modern jets are based off ov the avro arrow, just have to open your eyes to the similarities.

[@grownjohnboy]

@@frankroy9423 Delta Dagger, B58, Vulcan, yep All of those Canadians filled the desks to build a "better idea". If it becomes necessary Canadians can start again

[@Frankie5Angels150]

@@frankroy9423 Only the Soviet MiG-25 was copied from the Arrow. And it was a disappointment too.

[@VtheWolf]

Me and my friends in air cadets used to have long arguments over how well the arrow would be compared to today’s aircraft while hearing the cf-18’s flying overhead at the base we where on. The general feeling was that all of us really wanted to see it have actually been adopted by our government.

[@silaskuemmerle2505]

Given what ended up happening with all high altitude interceptors, Canada would have just not gotten the starfighter but otherwise history would likely be pretty much the same

[@donaldstanfield8862]

Amazing how capable it was from these reports

[@w8stral]

Well, in effect the Arrow was more suited to Canada than anything it has purchased due to its RANGE. The Reason Canada's Avro +M2.0 air frame disappeared is same reason why the USA's +M3.0 YF-12 met its doom. ICBM's eliminated their jobs as the bombers disappeared.

[@cliffgout]

February 20/1958 was the longest walkout of the plant with my wife and I and many others all feeling let down. That was the best experience anyone could have. Thank you England for all the great engineering people. A great number of them lived in Georgetown .

[@A_Vicious_T-Rex]

There's also a surviving orenda iroquois engine that was meant to power the arrow. it was sent to the uk for research and testing and ended up in a museum. It was forgotten about and eventually bought back in 2010 and shipped back to canada for their private collection

[@recceeboy1237]

It is in BC and being resurrected to running condition.

[@only2rayban]

The other surviving example (ref Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orenda_Iroquois) and I've seen it back in the 60s when it was in the old Second World War-era wooden hangars at the RCAF Station Rockcliffe airport in Ottawa. The collection was then relocated in the 80s in the new Canada Aviation and Space Museum ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Aviation_and_Space_Museum ) at the same location.

[@truenoae8689]

Oh yeah I saw that one in the museum

[@dougnorth3207]

great coverage of the issues. I think most Canadians feel that regardless of the decision to cancel the Arrow, there was NO justification to scrap the planes built. This more than anything offends our common sense of pride and heritage in our accomplishments. Even today in 2022 there are efforts to get a flying Arrow back in the skys. Why ? to acknowledge what we created and preserve that memory

[@robaspinall988]

the aircraft after cancellation should have gone to museums .. they did the same with the UK TSR 2 .. after that got scrapped all the parts of the aircraft strangely got taken away ..is there any compete arrows anywhere??/

[@guyhuard278]

The alleged reason for destroying everything was to prevent soviet spies from stealing the knowledge. It was the same in Britain. Of course the US aircraft industry got most of the engineering talent and the Canadian aerospace industry was pretty much destroyed, its remains becoming subcontractors to the US industry.

[@robaspinall988]

@@guyhuard278 strange how no american aviation stuff has been destroyed .. come to that .. the entire falklands task force has been scrapped . yet most of american stuff is intact ..

[@thegreatcanadianlumberjack5307]

​@@robaspinall988 the some of the Original Test models from the Arrow's development have been found and recovered from the bottom of lake Ontario and are currently under restoration. They are still trying to find more to this very day. While we don't have any complete airframes of the Arrow the test models being restored and preserved is something at least.

[@emmygraphicss]

My Great Grandfather was a chief Engineer for the Avro Arrow. Everyone called him Duke. Because he shared the same name as a Duke at the time. The Avro Arrow was his life and when the project was canceled, a few weeks later he died of a heart attack in his late 40s.

[@machupikachu1085]

Jeebus. That's a tearable ending to this story. So sorry for you family's loss! Cancelling the project and then destroying all associated research was nothing short of treason.

[@realcasama]

suspicious to me

[@CyberMercy]

my grand father was an Engineer for Arrow too. Arrow spoken of like a beloved cousin that was seduced & betrayed

[@mikebelanger835]

Tragic You put your life into something special just to see it forgotten. Heartbreaking stuff 😢

[@DJTV_88]

My grandfather Edward Potts worked on the arrow. He recently passed away right before his 89th birthday. I miss all his stories he would tell me. I’m sure they probably knew each other. What a crazy piece of history.

[@KayoCanAv]

Please...credit where credit is due. Around 14:29 I heard "Jack Woodman, the only pilot to ever fly the Arrow...". In fact, the first (and Chief) test pilot for the program was Jan Zurakowski, a brilliant and famous test pilot who made many flights in the Arrow after a long career in the Polish Air Force, the RAF (including Battle of Britain), Gloster Aircraft Company (inventor of the cartwheel manoeuver in the Gloster Meteor), and more. Retired to Bracebridge, Ontario from flying when the Arrow program was cancelled, and is buried and commemorated there at Zurakowski Park.

[@MostlyHarmlessAK]

Thank you so much for doing the Arrow. As a Canadian who loves all things aerospace it really kills me that they didn't just cancel the project but destroyed it. I really believe it could have been handled better and it feels like we all missed out on something by losing it so completely.

[@davidjames0106]

Agreed. The sad part is it wasn't just canceled, it was sabotaged by the government themselves. The required specs kept changing, which added to the cost overruns. The government would then complain about the cost. Then, news of the potential cancelation led to France and other countries stopping talks about purchases. The Canadian government didn't come out and deny those rumors or even try to help. So, to me, they not only canceled it, they sabotaged their own program at every turn.

[@cahg3871]

Pm Deiffenbaker cancelled the Arrow due to pressure from the American Goverment according to many sources.The American space program collected many talented aeronautical technicians when the Arrow was scrapped. My late foster father,Nickolas Seidl,a tool and die and sheet metal worker worked at Avro.He told me that when the first model was rolled out,he had tears in his eyes the plane was so beautiful. I miss you Pop,you were my hero and best friend.May 20th.1929 to April 7th. 2020.

[@wavelength7503]

You nailed, but I add Get your facts in your title correct. IT WAS BETRAYED BY, THE THEN, CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT. who allowed America to take down/sabotage our Aero space. Then they stole all our great minds to go to the USA to start up NASA. Now America could tell us that we would be nothing without them protecting us, and how we don't contribute our share in NATO. Now we could buy their military equipment. The LIBERAL GOVERNMENT ARE THE ONES WHO GOT CANADA DEFENCE TECHNOLOGY GOING INCLUDING OUR EXTREMELY ADVANCED AERO SPACE DIVISION., that the US sabotaged.

[@randomrazr]

is their one ptototype hidden ina. barn somewherE?

[@anothernamlesscommenter352]

Pm Dienffenbaker I have no idea why he did what he did

[@frankpeters935]

as a canadian i want canada to screw united states for doing this to an ally,nice friends to the soutjh of us united states is just a rottencountry.iuf you do reserach,this plane made it in to what we call space today.

[@wavelength7503]

@@frankpeters935 as a Canadian, Canada has let America do what it does best to Business partners ,screw them, when possible. But then if our Canadian politicians didn't sell us out. America would do what it is, and has done to its political partners,. Sanction them if they don't fall inline. The new Nazism agenda.

[@madmax1100ddf8]

Very Well done, Dream no Little Dreams. The end of Avro was the end of dreams, you can feel that in your video. I grew up hearing stories Arrow, over 20 years after its demise, we were buying the CF 18s , and my pilot friends then said the Arrow would have been capable along side the Figher Bombers. I was surprised to hear some of the later dates mentioned , looking at the talent, the product was real, the production not so much, the tales are awesome, it was an eccentric period, it was Canada last test as an independant ally, vs a dependant ally, dependent on foreign production. The talent at Avro was real..... those dreams while seeming like fantasy that Canada could go to the moon, i can only say the people involved could have taken us there... though they may have drank too much.... or us listening had... no one gets tired of the Arrow Tales....and their all true.

[@edpottinger849]

My uncle flew the Canuck Arrow in the early fifties,as a test pilot.He became an instructor,then he taught instructors how to instruct.He retired from the air force with a good pension.He told me the new Avro Arrow was far superior to the Americans jets of the day.He worked on the project but never flew the plane.His name was Rod Pottinger.

[@Narstak]

Everytime I hear something about this fighter, I, a canadian, feel my heart thightening in a feeling of doom

[@gimpytheimp]

Why? It was completely useless on arrival. ICBM's were already the proven tech to use in launching a nuke and no interceptor has ever been created that can stop one of those.

[@tumakbaluk]

@@gimpytheimp than explain the existance of the F-106, the F-4, & the Tomcat. The ICBM threat never was actually used and Russia still operates the Bear and the Tu-160 as nuclear bombers.

[@starliner2498]

I totally feel you man, defence projects tend to be the pride of citizens (mostly) really hurts when others criticize it

[@rexmann1984]

Prime example why governments suck. Avro could have built a capable interceptor for a civilian market for less than half the price.

[@rexmann1984]

The F-16XL got cancelled over similar BS. It's design was the next logical step forward from an Arrow.

[@MicrophonicFool]

Woodman was only one of 4 pilots to fly the arrow. The man with the most hours was “Spud” Potocki. Others were Jan Zurakowski and Englishman Peter Roland Cope.

[@rpm1796]

I met Potocki's sis back in the mid 90's....she said he and Jan thought it was a false flag spookfest.... the government got played....then panicked.

[@officialboomtish214]

Wasn’t Jan the first to take it up as well?

[@MicrophonicFool]

@@officialboomtish214 He was certainly the first

[@iantassell9765]

I would love to find the one that got away up in the rockies. Mith or not I still would like to find it If anyone knows more please let me know. I've also heard that they dumped one in Lake Ontario . I'd love to see it up and running and reprogrammed for the time now. Bet it would beat anything that they have now Canada 🇨🇦 needs this

[@randomrazr]

@@iantassell9765 wtf

[@Lhenry-pf5zn]

Excellent video, thanks. As ex RCAF and Canadian the Avro Arrow was dear to my heart which was broken when it was cancelled. At the time I was only a teenager in Air Cadets, but my father was probably the top RCAF pilot of the time and was in 1961 to fly the then new CF-104. Obviously you have never stumbled on the FBI file on the Arrow which holds the letter from the US government instructing the Prime Minister of Canada to cancel the Arrow. I am sure this was more a case of jealousy and capitalism by the people who run America and her aviation industries. I know more than 3000 Avro engineers went to work in the US and a great brain drain ensued much to the detriment of Canada.

[@chrisgraham2904]

As a Canadian, the story of the AVRO Arrow fills me with a deep level of sadness and anger. A story of an amazing opportunity for Canada to achieve its' potential, but crushed by the stroke of a pen. Unfortunately, the legacy of Canadian opportunities for potential being crushed is continuing in energy and other disciplines today. My father-in-law had cut his teeth in aircraft maintenance with the RCAF during World War II and was a quick hire by AVRO in 1953. Since the war, employment at AVRO provided the first real job stability, decent pay and benefits for his growing family.. He wasn't a lead engineer, or noted contributor -- just one of the 14,000 employees that embraced the dream and was motivated everyday to make the dream a reality. Every employee knew that they were a part of something very unique and special that would change the course of Canada's future and change Canada's standing in the world. He received that dreaded "Pink Slip" on the now famous "Black Friday" and he was hit with a devastation that would remain with him until the day that he died.

[@eblaser7407]

Thanks for making this vid. I'm from Canada and hadn't heard of this jet but when I fond this vid I kind of thought it was sad the the RCAF scrapped something so revolutionary that could have started for Canada one of the strongest air forces in the world.

[@Unix2816]

The aircraft was likely not to have been adopted but what’s important to realize is the technology that made the arrow an ahead of its time aircraft such. France wanted the advanced PS.13 Iroquois Engine for its dassault mirage, and as well, the engine was one of the first to make use of titanium

[@alexspareonetoo8755]

Oh come on man...Dassault Mirage 3 was way ahead.

[@Unix2816]

@@alexspareonetoo8755 True but compared to the arrow, I think it was more ahead since it pioneered many new concepts

[@raymondsheffield5366]

DAMN RIGHT!! That's TRUTH.

[@alexspareonetoo8755]

@Sean Price But Mirage fought in real wars, defending Israel most famously even against Soviet aircraft and pilots who were covertly deployed to rArab countries. It was a real need. Whereas, F12, F106 and Arrrow were pointless, ike I said, was USSR reallly going to fly peopeller driven Bear bombers to attack NA when they had hundreds of ICBMs by then. The Canadair CF100 with nuclear Genie air to air missiles was totally adequate.

[@Unix2816]

@Sean Price fax man

[@TheFlyingMooseCA]

Really appreciate you shedding light on Canada's incredible engineering achievements - seeing animations just brings it to a whole other level that words and photos can't. Sad to say that even 60 years later, we couldn't keep the Bombardier CSeries either :(

[@manic6030]

Well, for Bombardier to loose the CSeries, the plane is a great machine, but the company was holding together by hopes and dreams. They kept begging (with success) for more bililions in tax dollars, then firing employees by thousands and to add the insult to the injury, the bosses gave themselves very generous bonuses. At one point the population said it is time to stop this money pit. But I agree, it's sad not to see the Bombardier logo on those planes.

[@gpto14]

They fired everybody and gave themself 30 millions worth of bonus.

[@ericmann1781]

@@manic6030 Not to mention we had a salary freeze while they basically doubled their multi million dollar yearly bonuses. Then some wonder why so many people who work there are so bitter.

[@williammcivor45]

I am a born and raised Canadian, that has loved aircraft ever since I could! I think I was 4 when I found my first love of aircraft. It was a die-cast model of a B17 Bomber. I flew that thing around with my imagination every time I could! When I learned about the Avro aero, I felt the pride of Canada flowing through my veins! When I learn about the fall of the Arrow.... I cried.😢, and then I got extremely Angry!!! How a single man shut down and grossly chopped up the most amazing interceptor ever BUILT! At the time. Such a sad story.. I don't even like thinking about it.. It just makes me more angry with our "Money for nothing government"

[@peteguillena7857]

I just want to say thank you, as a bit of a modern military historian, i'm happy you popped in a couple of points that no one else i seen ever put in a arrow vid, bottom line, this might have been the darkest day in canadian military history, yes i am canadian as well. I once talked to a commanding officer of a airforce squadron and even he admits, if that plane continued on, we would probably still be using a variant of the arrow today and during the sixties and seventies, it would have been used around the world. There are not enough fingers in the military to wag and go tsk tsk tsk... on all those that killed this marvel; add to that, it's no secret that without the people that worked at avro, america would have not made it to the moon when they did, they would have made it there, just not that soon. Canadian military has always gathered a great rep for what they do, an excellent rep as peacekeepers, however, this would have made us a leader in military aviation. A shame the government in ottawa didn't have a backbone and simply lacked any vision of the time or the future. Cheers!

[@__pie___]

Just want to add that instead of using wind tunnels, earlier in the development of the arrow they used small rockets to propel a model of the plane through a series of paper sheets to see if it tumbles or not. Those same rockets were later developed into the Black Brant Sounding Rockets which are used by NASA and other space agencies.

[@tumakbaluk]

Actually they did start using wind tunnels in the beginning, though, none that were around at the time could not demonstrate above mach 0.9, and so, they turned to rockets to get up to the expected speeds.

[@plane_guy6051]

Some of those models mounted on rockets were found in Lake Ontario in 2017

[@theprofivideos]

I can confirm they had wind tunnel models of the Avro Arrow. I held one of them in my own two hands in the late 70's. It was saved from the massive destruction that surrounded this project.

[@lessharratt8719]

@@plane_guy6051 Apparently they are protected and you are not allowed to recover them.

[@Paul-vf2wl]

Those rockets were made by Bristol not Avro

[@hemiv8power]

First of all, I’m Canadian and have been since my parents and I immigrated from Hong Kong in the early 90s. I was 5. I first learned about the Arrow in History classes in Grade 7. I didn’t pay too much attention to it at first because back then. It was just “another blah blah plane”. Then I learned more about it in Grade 9. That was when it got me really excited about the plane. How it was a fully clean sheet design by Canadian engineers and how it beat ANYTHING around the world, specially the US, even had! To this day, I’m still love the plane, especially how proud I am , as a Canadian. When your video first came out, I watched it several times. I LOVE this one. Today, I watched it again and thought of posting this comment. I almost never comment on videos, but I enjoy this one so much that I HAD to. THANK YOU for this video! Bye for now, from Toronto, Ontario, CANADA!

[@asylumental]

Hello from Vancouver British Columbia 🍻 I think we're also around the same age 😆

[@Miko_of_the_North]

As a Canadian even as a kid this made me mad and it still dose. Such a huge waste. The Canadian government is still inept as this to this day. We could offer so much more then we do today but we are still run by bean counters that are short sighted.

[@kstricl]

As a Canadian, I shake my head. The market for this plane would have continued, as the political scene changed. It's destruction was so short sighted. Other past documentaries have even suggested us manufacturers may bribed us politicians to put pressure on to shut it down. If nothing else, I would have liked a few production units to have been built, even if the program was still shutdown due to cost.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

What market? The F-106 didn’t exactly see a lot of export sales and was an easily comparable plane.

[@Sherwoody]

@@Justanotherconsumer the Starfighter would have been outclassed and the Arrow could have cut into it’s sales. The Arrow had a much larger airframe (weapons bay was huge) had a higher ceiling than the Starfighter and was designed for all weather. If the aircraft had gone into production, sales of the Orenda Iroquois to France would have gone ahead.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@Sherwoody the Arrow was not a multi role platform. The competitor in question wasn’t the F-104 but the F-4. There were plenty of Mach 2 interceptors available - F-106, J35, Lightning, all of which were operational before the Arrow was even finished. As a 2-seat 2-engine massive beast of a plane it wouldn’t have been cheap either. Canada had some unique expectations on two engine aircraft that meant it couldn’t use the lighter and cheaper single engine interceptors preferred by just about everyone else (except the Russians, of course).

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@Sherwoody the Arrow was not a multi role platform. The competitor in question wasn’t the F-104 but the F-4, which was multi-role and had similar range, speed, etc… Also, competing against the F-104 had… uh… non-engineering problems (read: bribery). There were plenty of Mach 2 interceptors available - F-106, J35, Lightning, all of which were operational before the Arrow was even finished. As a 2-seat 2-engine massive beast of a plane it wouldn’t have been cheap either. Canada had some unique expectations on two engine aircraft that meant it couldn’t use the lighter and cheaper single engine interceptors preferred by just about everyone else (except the Russians, of course).

[@Sherwoody]

@@Justanotherconsumer Germany as well as Canada bought a lot of F-104’s. Their role was strike / reconnaissance / intercept.

[@craigallan8834]

I had a chance to meet one of the test pilot's for the Avro Arrow, when I lived in Barry's Bay, Ontario Canada. Perhaps the best known pilot who was involved with the AVRO Arrow program was Janusz (Jan) Zurakowski. Jan was born in Ryzawka, Russia, to Polish parents on September 12th, 1914. Jan, who was nicknamed “Zura”, was renowned for his aeronautical skills and his extensive career as a test pilot. He was also a decorated aviator, fighting for Poland and the United Kingdom during World War II. In 1952, he immigrated to Canada and began a career as the lead development pilot for A.V. Roe Canada. Flying the CF-100 on December 18th, 1952, Jan broke the sound barrier and became the first person to exceed the speed of sound in a straight wing jet aircraft. During the 1950s, Jan also flew as an aerobatic display pilot, with spectacular results. In 1958, Jan was chosen as the chief development test pilot for the CF-105 Avro Arrow program. Jan was at the controls of the Arrow’s first test flight in RL-201 on March 25th, 1958. He was also at the controls of RL-202 and RL-203 for their maiden flights, on August 1st, 1958 and September 22nd , 1958 respectively. In total, Jan flew 23 hours and 45 minutes in the Arrows. Jan retired from test flying later in 1958, and in 1973 was inducted into Canada’s Aviation Hall of Fame for his outstanding contributions to Canadian aviation. Jan died at his home in Barry’s Bay, Ontario, on February 9th, 2004.

[@MobileTech296]

I built a model kit of the Arrow when I was a kid and thought it was the coolest plane I’d ever seen. Every so often it I see something about it again and I can’t help but wonder what Canada’s aerospace industry would look like today if things had gone differently. Thank you for helping to keep the Arrow’s memory alive.

[@jimervin1637]

Model kits of that plane are worth a few bucks if you check on Ebay, especially if you built the Aurora kit version. I know because I have it and now it's too valuable to build.

[@edyoung9944]

It's easy to forget that the Diefenbaker government of the day was adhering to the law that prohibited going into debt - so when AVRoe was given $200 million, they were told that there could be no more money for the Arrow when the budget was depleted. However, the biggest mistake made by AVRoe was that there was no market for the aircraft - most western countries were busy developing their own fighter jets; e.g., the US was developing the Delta dart and Delta dagger (F102 and 106). The last point is the fact that the Arrow had not been designed against a weapons load - when you armed the Arrow with guns and/or rockets, the price doubled, and the performance was significantly reduced. "the mission is to carry pianos, and AVRoe designed a sports car !" I was a young cadet in the RCAF when the Arrow first flew, and I was disappointed when the program was shut down, but when all factors are considered, the government had no choice but to shut down the project

[@keithmartin1328]

You're probably aware that we had a similar story in Britain a few years later with the TSR2. However, that prototype still is in existence today at the Farnborough Air museum.

[@jayyydizzzle]

Found and explained, you make some very high quality mini documentary's, thank you.

[@PeterGonzalezAyres1932]

I am not Canadian; I am Australian, interested in the development of military aviation and seeing what the Avro Arrow could have been, I am sad for the decision taken by the Canadian Government. It was an elegant, efficient, fast magnificent piece of engineering!

[@raymondsheffield5366]

Peter, you're a great gentleman. Cheers Mate!

[@PeterGonzalezAyres1932]

@@raymondsheffield5366 What I am interested to know now is why, and what pressures from other country were applied on Canada to stop the development and the following destruction of everything related to the Avro Arrow.

[@hughgordon6435]

The aussies could of had the buccaneer, but instead got the aardvark? Was that a good decision?

[@mr.2cents.846]

And on top of that, not too expensive.

[@WhatsOnTheOtherEnd]

As a Canadian, I'm glad to see our story told on this channel! Thanks!

[@Ioannis339]

I’m an 85 year old Canadian. What a bloody shame when you have egotistical politicians with their own self interests catering to the selfish bastards for their own gains. Sadly it’s still going on today.

[@davidparsons3076]

There was a TV Mini Series called "The Arrow" produced in 1997, starring Dan Akroyd which is the story of this plane.

[@tumakbaluk]

Yes! I remember that CBC produced it and gave more light into the character and thinking of the people involved. It gives a whole new perspective to some of the delays which slowed the program.

[@TheOwenMajor]

The Mini-Series is typical CBC propaganda (Much of it is simply nonsensical) designed to make people hate the US and forget Liberal corruption. Avro had deep ties to the Liberal party and the project was sucking money out of the military. The CBC would rather people not draw too many conclusions about the Liberals, their connections with domestic manufactures, and grossly over budget programs.

[@tumakbaluk]

@@TheOwenMajor on the contrary, they exquisetly showed both views of the liberals and the conservative parties and their rolls in what happened. I would also like to point out that the incoming prime minister (at the time) was a conservative, and they were the ones harping on the liberals to stop spending so much (on a lot of things).

[@TheOwenMajor]

@@tumakbaluk I'll point out the president of Avro just happened to be close friends with the minister responsible for defense contracts. This isn't a two-sided story. The Liberals have been corrupt for generations period..

[@tumakbaluk]

@@TheOwenMajor I wasn't saying they weren't. I'm objecting to your "contempt prior to investigation" regarding the CBC

[@bBersZ]

For me, the Avro Arrow and the Kee Bird are two aviation stories that are especially hard to re watch etc

[@michaelgautreaux3168]

How horribly sad. A very beautiful plane. Being but one of a handful of "what could have beens". So much like the Mirage IV. Many thanx 👍👍. GR8 vid

[@zedfan4598]

It never was.............. the engines, avionics were never made..... and the second prototype didn't fly to the moon to rest in a golden hangar under the shade of a giant lollipop tree.

[@wartmcbeighn]

Mirage 4 saw production

[@BrianDavis-no6gy]

My Uncle , who lived with us in Canada was an engineer on the arrow project and a flying disc , for years . He started me as a young child on my lifelong love of mechanical and electrical projects . He helped me wind motors and build things with the erector set he bought me when I was about 4 . I'm heading towards 69 .

[@Hamsteak]

I'm a Canadian and this aircraft was always an awesome legend for me. One of those things that give us some pride in our know how and our technological progression for a smaller country in terms of population. It's a shame really that it wasn't able to fully move ahead. But at least we were able to help with the moon landing. It's also another story of many of the ways the United States is always trying to take Canada down a peg cause of its jealousy. A story of 2 Brother's rivaling. But anyways great video

[@raymondsheffield5366]

Tell it like it is brother. Cheers

[@marior.provencher2511]

Yes for sure, same here

[@404Dannyboy]

How is this at all about the US trying to take Canada down a peg?

[@PerfectlyUselessComment]

I saw the full size model that was constructed at the Downsview Aerospace museum in Toronto before it was moved. Such a cool plane.

[@nathanbanks2354]

As a Canadian who touched the nose of an Avro Arrow, this is another reason I want proportional representation. Diefenbaker did win a slim majority of the votes (53%) but got 79% of the seats. I wish we had a political systems that encourage more continuity between terms by forcing opposing parties to work together like most democracies.

[@catified2081]

Not sure you noticed...........no political parties of any democracy are working together in 2021.......2nd place in politics is as useless as tits on a bull ! Today's political environment is win at all costs and people and budgets be damned!

[@PanayotisSK]

Teresa Padilla

[@cheaze69]

The arrow was overpriced and everyone was going to missiles. This video uses the wrong flag for 1959 BTW

[@joelbrittain6379]

The way Democrats and Republicans work together?

[@williamcampbell4876]

Anyone who thinks the liberals were going to continue the arrow program should really think again

[@charleseldridge9365]

My father was RCAF 1941-1970. He was able to see the Arrow up close and talk to the pilots. The Arrow was two generations ahead of the world.

[@matthewbugeya1401]

I have always loved the story of the Arrow, especially having seen the full scale model in my own city. I have a lot of memorabilia, including a signed photo of the 204, and I feel a sense of pride with the aircraft. This video was great at explaining the multiple issues the government faced! I was always curious about it, and while it's role wasn't necessary anymore, I believe the aircraft itself should have continued to allow Canada to become an even more powerful engineering country. A lot of us blame the government for getting too pressured by everyone else, and we consider the fallout of engineering here to be one of the greatest losses of potential in Canadian history.

[@JFHeroux]

Damn right we do. I have no doubt that our place in aerospace history was stolen from us by a short-sighted government (which they all are IMO). Stupid politicians!

[@Hamsteak]

@@JFHeroux damn right

[@TimTheInspector]

From a Canadian engineering standpoint the cancellation of the Arrow was a tragedy but from a political point of view who knows what effect another capable aggressor would have caused during the Cold War. Moreso if AVRO had sold them to other countries who could later have turned unfriendly or those buyers later sold them used to someone else.

[@Dave-ty2qp]

Factually speaking the duly elected Canadian Government decided they would rather have free band aids and school meals thru social programs than feed an engineering program that would have to compete with world class aviation corporations. Your leaders, you elected, in your land. The blame is on you and what you are going thru now with covid is further proof of your shyness to success. But you do turn out good snowmobiles, and sewing machines.

[@vincentgoudreault9662]

@@Dave-ty2qp Seriously? Cancelling the program caused the loss of 25000 jobs of tax paying people. When told about that, the idiotic Diefenbaker said "the engineers ought to go work for the railroad" (as locomotive engineer, apparently).

[@emaheiwa8174]

One of the saddest stories about planes along with the Bac TSR and YB49. Those damned politicians 🤬

[@lucasokeefe7935]

Difference with the YB-49 and XB-35 was that Northrop had the budget to continue developing the concept on its own, while Avro simply didn't. It would have been incredible to see Avro and Northrop work together to revive the YB-49 with fly-by-wire though. ...Imagine a Northrop/Avro stealth ekranoplan, holy crap!

[@lengend27war34]

@@lucasokeefe7935 lol

[@alexspareonetoo8755]

Thev YB49 was just a step en route to B2. Jack Northrop literally cried when he was shown it for the first time...his lifes work fulfilled

[@raymondsheffield5366]

。。Interesting thought

[@Ushio01]

Meh spending money on obsolete junk isn't a good thing and both the Avro Arrow and Bac TSR were obsoleted while in development. The Bac TSR was superseded by the ballistic missile submarine and unlike the F-111 the TSR had no other use apart from as a nuclear bomber due to it's crap conventional bombload due to an internal weapons bay. The Avro Arrow meanwhile was obsoleted at the same time as the USSR was laying down it's first ballistic missile subs in 1958 with them commissioning in 1960. The USAF who was further ahead with the F-106 only built 277 interceptors (the rest of the 342 were prototypes and trainers) of the over 1000 originally planned as things had changed. MAD through both land based ICBM's and sub launched SLBM's was now the order of the day with aircraft now limited to tactical nukes for use against USSR tank columns.

[@john5r]

the sad part about the M-50 shown in the intro is that it never flew even at Mach 1 (0.95 or similar was the best result in test flights). The design was too raw. Looked impressive, though, must've given scares to NATO generals for some time.

[@jollyroger2012]

as a canadian, an aircraft nut, businessman etc. this whole issue still bothers me to no end. I firmly believe that we would STILL be at the cutting edge of aviation and making lots of bank doing it to this day if the arrow had been allowed to have been completed. Kind of pissed at the americans who kind of manipulated us, then stole personnel from the program to further their goals.

[@JP-fq5zj]

The Americans had nothing to do with the cancellation. They did more than any other county outside of Canada to make the Arrow viable, but you can only polish a turd so much. And by stole personnel, do you by chance mean gave jobs to out-of-work Canadians so they didn't end up on the street? How dare they!

[@TheCaper69er]

I'm definitely deeply sad after watching this video about how much more could have come. unfortunately there was a very evil force or force's that didn't want this to work. I'm still to this day proudly Canadian and very proud off the history lesson I received in this video. I had my 3 d kite version out flying proudly today.

[@darin6630]

It's a shameful time in the history of the government at the time. I'm proudly Canadian first and foremost. Ahhhhhh what was, and what could have been.... 🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦

[@quoderatdemonstrandum5442]

Retired pilot here... The Avro Arrow was indeed the most advanced *HIGH ALTITUDE BOMBER INTERCEPTOR* of it's time. But in a dogfight it would have lost it's ass to pretty much anything else out there. And that ginormous delta wing is just not conducive to low-level strike missions either. In other words, it's design was too narrowly focused when the concept of multi-role tactical jets was all the rage. Exit stage left... But it was a VERY cool airplane, nevertheless. Cheers, Quod Erat Demonstrandum

[@ammo8713]

WHAT A BEAUTIFUL BIRD....KUDOS TO THE DESIGNERS AND ENGINEERS. SUCH A SHAME THE ARROW DIDN'T RECEIVE THE RESPECT IT DESERVED !👍😁🇺🇸🇨🇦

[@markgallicano]

yes but would a purpose built interceptor take out a jack of all trades multirole fighter before a dog fight started .The Arrow was designed with one purpose in mind and that was to greet the Russians from way above and now China .

[@beerthug]

You pretty much just 'verified' what the show said. Great job, if you're into plagiarism.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

@@markgallicano nah, a purpose built interceptor would get trashed by a more flexible design. The Arrow was designed to be one thing - a very fast missile launch platform. In an actual fight against anything that could maneuver it’d be pretty useless.

[@vincentgoudreault9662]

@@Justanotherconsumer Not really. You see, the requirement was such that it should be able to turn at a sustained 2 G at 50000 feet without loss of speed and altitude. That translate to an agility that is a lot greater still at lower speed and altitude. With the proper tweaks, it could have been as maneuverable as anything that existed back then, and could have become a multi role platform.

[@jslade5180]

Great video! Just wanted to mention that at 1:24, the statement is made that the prototypes were destroyed. As far as I know, the only prototypes, were models. As stated in the video at 9:30, Avro wanted to build the production line first so that they could instantly roll out production models when the design was finalized. The photographs of the carnage that took place out on the tarmac was of the fully and partially completed production models that were either fully functional - or days/weeks away from being completed.

[@palco22]

With time, as a Canadian, you learn how to accept these downfalls. Canadians learn to just get through their day. To dream a little is ok but don't try to change anything in a big way. If you do have a great idea move south, they will help you, they will put a star on some sidewalk, they will celebrate you in a big way with galas and awards. In Canada we have Tim Horton's and maple syrup and a warm wood stove for long cold winters with a cup of warm chocolate milk.

[@finskiandguns8534]

Canada currently has the 4th largest aviation industry in the world. Imagine what could have been if our government hadn’t made a huge mistake. This story makes me want to cry every time it’s talked about, especially since the variant with the Canadian engines(Orenda Iroquois) didn’t get a chance to fly and break every record.

[@menotyou7762]

I saw the original Orenda Iroquois engine. there is an engine behind glass at the magellan site in Mississauga, Airport rd and Derry Rd. it is huge

[@gordoncheswick4169]

NOT a mistake, believe me!

[@wavelength7503]

It was the conservative government. It wasn't my government. Imagine if Canadians were true Canadians and not wanna be Americans, and if their bigotry/ prejudicsm on Canadian aviation corporations (BOMBARDIER) were as common in American aviation corporations . Boeing got Trump in 2019 to sabotage Bombardier plan deals in USA, under Boeing's orders .

[@alpearson9158]

the Orenda Iroquois was tested in the US and surpassed all planned testing substantially

[@lancepless7525]

It's a good thing it was scrapped. It's a far better legend than it was a functional aircraft. The fact is, it just didn't work, was years behind schedule, and the cost overruns were bankrupting the country. But keep believing in the legend if it makes you feel good.

[@burlingtonmoose]

I am a Canadian and my father worked on the arrow. He was devastated by losing his job there. The words diefenbaker conservative. Were bad words in our home. My dad had friends who were pressuring him to move to the USA . He refused saying that he was Canadian. So in the long run I was saved from becoming moved to the USA. My dad worked at several different jobs after he lost his job at Avro. The crazy thing is that he eventually ended up working at the same building that he was working. At Mac donald Douglas at Malton . Until his death in 1980. I remember as a kid my mom parking at the parking lot right by the building that you often see of the arrow 201 parked outside that building. We were there to pick up Dad after work. I hated the conservatives then and now. I now live in midland Ontario but will never forget the arrow

[@macmcbride6521]

I'm an American and I'm very glad you folks are there. You're the best neighbors anyone could ask for. Thank you. That was definitely a beautiful aircraft. It wasn't beaten by a better airframe it was beaten by Sputnik. It first flew the same-day Sputnik was launched. That plane was put out of business by technology I'm sorry. This film said it would take 23% of the National military budget at that time to keep one flying. Because of its very short range it would take 300 to protect Canada. I'm sorry it cost so many jobs and hurt so many people's lives.. But it wasn't a conspiracy. There was absolutely no way the Canadian people could afford it. The ICBM ruined your project. The bombers it was made to shoot down no longer mattered. Nothing but love for you folks.

[@hughgordon6435]

Oh, please .Don't rain on the parade!

[@macmcbride6521]

@@hughgordon6435 sorry if I hurt your feelings I'm sorry I was just as gentle as I could possibly be.

[@florbfnarb7099]

It wasn't betrayed, nor was it a stupid decision not to buy the thing. It was an interceptor designed to shoot down high altitude bombers...right when high altitude bombers had just become obsolete due to the development of ICBMs and SAMs. The Arrow literally had no purpose after its prey was gone. It was unsuitable for other roles, unlike the amazingly versatile F-4 Phantom, which started as a fleet defense fighter but covered everything from reconnaissance to fighter-bomber to air superiority fighter. The US canceled a lot of interceptors as well, from the XF-103 and XF-108, which never advanced beyond the mockup stage, to the YF-12, which was actually developed into multiple prototypes and tested - and performed well. There just was no need for them, particularly as expensive as they were.

[@aaronsmith8073]

I agree, but I must admit the Arrow was well designed and would have done its job quite well and for a while alongside the F-106. The bomber threat (made worse by the perception the Soviets were producing far more bombers than originally thought---the so called 'bomber gap'), the development of the SAM and the ICBM, soaring costs and more importantly politics doomed the entire project, likely for similar reasons that ended the Rapier project. Pity, the Arrow would likely have been a superb aircraft.

[@maxthegood10]

I’m a retired RCAF Colonel and would have been a radar controller for the Arrow had it been completed and entered service with NORAD. Instead, most of my fighter control experience was with the CF-101 and the F-106. I served with NORAD in six locations during the Cold War, including three NORAD Regional Headquarters, as a Mission Commander and Airborne Battle Commander on AWACS, and as Chief of the Air Defence Operations centre in the Cheyenne Mountain Complex at HQ NORAD in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The Arrow and its intended operational environment are something I am very familiar with. The Arrow was an interesting program and it produced a good interceptor. However, it was enormously expensive and its performance, while competitive with contemporary developments in the US and Europe, was not significantly better. It was the end of an era - the last of the single purpose interceptor. The need for multi-role fighters was driving development elsewhere and the Arrow had no capability to develop beyond the interceptor role. As the North American threat evolved away from bombers and toward intercontinental ballistic missiles, the number of interceptors required were diminishing. The USAF didn’t buy into it as they already had an interceptor - the F-106 - of similar performance that entered squadron operational service around the same time as the Arrow was cancelled. There was no interest from NATO allies in Europe. Accordingly, the price per airplane continued to spiral upwards. The program was unsustainable and Its cancellation was inevitable. I now teach a course on the Cold War; here are the bullet points for my final two slides on the Arrow - Expensive - performance competitive with contemporaries but not significantly better USAF didn’t buy into it NATO partners skeptical - risk, $$$, US alternatives Requirements for numbers in Canada going down - missile threat Pushed up per unit price Program had been infiltrated by KGB All plans and prototypes destroyed as a security measure Brain drain to US and UK - exaggerated The Avro Arrow was the birth of - A legend, a conspiracy theory, National Mythology and an awful lot of Bullsh*t

[@comx427]

@maxthegood10 I think Don Rogers who ran the Arrow flight test program would disagree with your performance opinion. His comments are brief from 1993. 1min-35sec mark. kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZ_Se2agj62Wp8U

[@maxthegood10]

@@comx427 Thanks for commenting. My principle point of comparison is the USAF F-106, an aircraft with which I am very familiar. The Arrow was going to have exactly the same radar/fire control system as the F-106 and use the same armament. The F-106 had similar or better combat radius and ferry range and was at least as fast. Both are delta wing interceptors capable of Mach 2 plus. I can’t comment in detail on Don Rogers’ remarks about maneuverability at altitude, but, as they were both delta wing interceptors, I doubt there was a lot of difference between the two. In any case, the Arrow was a single role strategic interceptor - its role was to intercept and destroy incoming bombers. In that role, speed and range are far more important than maneuverability. I stand by my comment that the Arrow’s performance was not significantly better than contemporary aircraft of a similar role. The F-106 and the Dassault Mirage III are good examples. Both are delta wing fighters and, if you look at the headline performance numbers (speed and range), they compare favourably against the Arrow.

[@kevbrown1867]

I could never understand the governments orders to destroy the planes and blueprints I remember people were saying it was done so that in the future their decision could not have been reversed but does make sense that they didn’t want any advance technology they created going to the Soviets. Canadians took the plane as a source of great pride but frankly it wasn’t as great as they thought in their mind . It really was a work in progress with nothing proven and lots of work to get the engines and the weapon systems all in place . At the end of the day it was just too much money even if it was the best Americans faced the same situation with the XB70 the greatest of the greats but just too expensive even for the USA . And they too had an amazing interceptor the YF 12 but again super expensive even for the USA to build in numbers and maintain. Same goes for the B58 the replacement for the B52 an amazing bomber but unfortunately very expensive to maintain and dangerous to fly . So even the USA today still relies on the 70 year old B52 because they can afford it .

[@comx427]

@@kevbrown1867 When it comes to the Arrow,I'll take the word of people who were there and know the truth vs people who weren't there and know nothing. Arrow test pilot,Jan Zurakowski-"the Arrow was quite outstanding from a performance point of view". Test pilot Peter Cope-"the Arrow was a phenomenal performing aircraft". Those guys flew the aircraft and tell it like it is.

[@brettbuck7362]

@@comx427 What was their equivalent evaluation of the F-106? Or are you cherry-picking?

[@La.máquina.de.los.sueños]

I'm from Quebec, Canada's only French province recognized as a distinct nation among the Canadian nation. Very very rare are the things that make me proud of also being Canadian, but the Arrow do... it's how much this plane is dear to us all as a confederation. The Arrow was more than a technical marvel back then, it's still an icon... probably as the Concord is to France and England. As it was it could not compete with today's fighters... but it's not hard to imagine it having evolved over the last 70 years into something looking like the French Rafale or it's future 6th gen version.

[@riliryrimaddyvia9630]

Oh wow those 3d models ,I almost was tricked and thought they were real archived footage

[@davidlindsay2436]

I was a teenager in high school when I heard over the radio that the Arrow was cancelled. I still recall the moment and my sense of disappointment. I felt that a technological edge had been lost.

[@linejumper8204]

Das owd.

[@synthgal1090]

I'm so glad that Project Wingman had a clone of this plane (they had to do designs "inspired" by real planes because they couldn't get the rights like Ace Combat did) and it was super fun to use, even if it was way out of its element in the close air support and air superiority environment that AC and PW excel in.

[@toastergaming7783]

My headcanon is that the Sicario found the original Arrow hidden away in the mountains unaffected by the Calamity. They later cleaned, repaired, and installed modern armament for Monarch and Prez to fly

[@synthgal1090]

@@toastergaming7783 but they changed it from side-by-side seating to front/back just so you have that middle support column right in the middle of your view in cockpit mode :C

[@BSp-m2g]

My dad was recruited to Canada 1956 by de Havilland and we emigrated to join him in 1957 . The cancellations of Avro Arrow caused huge layoffs throughout the aerospace industry. Dad was laid off 6 months after our arrival. Canada had no unemployment nor any other social support. Our family was thrown into poverty while dad sought other employment. We left Quebec moving to the rural Bradford area to pick vegetables in the Holland Marsh area. The family was homeless. The generosity of an elderly couple running a gas station allowed us use of their cottage. We lived 12 years at this cottage with a rent to own plan set up by this elderly couple. All the fallout of the cancelled plane was widespread and remains vivid in our memories. Thanks for raising the issue.

[@dunodisko2217]

It’s special ability would be to clog up the bombers’ engines with maple syrup

[@edwardcarberry1095]

The clogging up of arteries from the Geoengineering Weather Modification going on with Aluminum and other heavy metals!

[@EdRedekop]

This is so typical of our Canadian government. What an amazing opportunity for our country and what a colossal waste of finances. I can only imagine where our aerospace program would be today. Absolutely shameful.

[@JP-fq5zj]

Our aerospace program would be right where it currently is.

[@bobdevreeze4741]

The Arrow was obsolete in 1958. Interceptors had 1 job, to kill attacking bombers. Not air defense, not ground attack. They were large and fast with the idea a mach 3 dash would overwhelm the bombers defenses and be out of range before others could respond. They forgot about missiles. A simple sidewinder generation 1 could easily kill an arrow or any other interceptor.. That's why they don't build interceptors anymore. My father lost a business when A.V. Roe closed after the Arrow debacle.

[@lengend27war34]

Speed

[@vincentgoudreault9662]

Funny you should write that, since the F-15 was designed as a fighter (with the slogan "not a pound for air to ground"), and that the platform was then adapted to become the superlative attack F-15E Strike Eagle. You really think that a fighter can never be adapted to new missions?

[@vincentgoudreault9662]

@@memonk11 Try googling "not a pound for air to ground" and show me where it says F-16 as opposed to F-15. And it did survive the drawing board, since the ground attack capability was introduce with the F15C model, which first went into production in 18978, 6 years after the original F-15 prototype first flight. That makes you wrong twice in the same silly posting.

[@machupikachu1085]

@@memonk11 yeah, your KZbin video on the Avro Aero is much better researched.

[@FredCarver-x3g]

I am a Canadian aviation enthusiast . I feel that the decision was wrong. The Thursday before cancellation there was a flight with s second seater, the only time one flew in the back seat. This flight was to start tuning a fly-by-wire system, another first. There were so may advancements in aviation in this aircraft and in the techniques and methods of designing and building a plane. As you pointed out there were so many projects that could have come from it. The government not only destroyed the plane but destroyed the whole industry. All the best went south to NASA and companies like Lockheed. It snuffed out the spark of a fledgling industry.

[@trussedmetal7536]

Rumor has it that RL-202 was never scrapped, but instead was flown to the UK and stored away by the RAF. One can only hope that it still survives.

[@wartmcbeighn]

yah that baseless rumor keeps on popping up with no evidence to support any of it....

[@zachattack_the_imperialist6065]

As a Canadian I have always wished that this plane saw production and service who knows where the Canadian arrow space program would be if it had.

[@plane_guy6051]

I just want to commend you on the excellent video. As Canadian, I've always been disappointed that the government did not at least save all the parts somewhere, but I guess they were afraid the Russians would steal the technology, but it seems the Russians already had, so we should have just kept the planes IMO.

[@trolleriffic]

The Canadian government offered them (and possibly the prototype engines too) to the UK but we didn't want them.

[@remakerdigital]

Thanks!

[@FoundAndExplained]

Thank you so much for the donation. that's a coffee to help make these 3d renders.

[@warchief1015]

I find that this is the same gutless standing in governments that we have in Australia. Like the home grown arrow in Canada, that could have supplied an infrastructure for many and varied industries, jobs and design, self reliance and the pride felt in your own country men. Ours was in the APC( armoured personnel carrier) the Whaler, the design of the Oberon 2 submarine( a commodore and others resigned after the debacle with the Collins joke boat) and the Wave Peircer warship, that many navies now have similar designs now in their navies. Betrayal by western Governments seems to be standard since the end of WW2 and it continues today.

[@doogleticker5183]

It makes one wonder how deep the Soviets had infiltrated Western governments. Even today, Canada doesn't have a Navy to do the simplest tasks, such as the patrol of Canadian waters, doing ASW while being safe from threats from potential enemy subs, surface combatants, and long-range air power (including drones). Canada has at most two old diesel-electric subs at any one time to patrol and protect ALL of Canada's shores...let alone the blue water approaches to the country.

[@Guido_XL]

@@doogleticker5183 I believe that the Netherlands has four submarines operational, shared with Belgium. They are home-made by Dutch industry. I remember in the early 1980's when there was a controversy about the Dutch submarine industry in Rotterdam, on the verge of selling their subs to Taiwan, which raised anger with mainland-China then, obviously. There was also something about submarines to be sold to South-Africa, if I remember correctly, but that deal was probably also canceled. This was the era in which the Dutch industry also produced the famous Goalkeeper defence gun for navy vessels, shooting incoming missiles from the sky. Dutch navy vessels still have this self-defence system.

[@doogleticker5183]

@@Guido_XL It seems that you've been around the block! Yet, four sub hulls equate to two operational "ready to go" boats. You have to factor in maintenance and crew WUPS (work-ups). There is also the time needed for Sea Readiness Trials and Combat Readiness Trials. The RCN (back in the day) used a three-year cycle for each DD where only one year was a certified ship deployable. Clearly, corners can be cut during a war, but there is never 100% availability. As I recall, the Goalkeeper was an awesome innovation, but sadly not installed on RN ships that fought in the Falklands war. The future will be high-energy lasers perhaps with physical CIWS as a backup. My longstanding concern is that shrapnel from a close intercept retains a lot of kinetic energy and DDs have little to no armour. I found this video on YT that displays recent tech in the domain: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4qtY36Bo9FpoaM Cheers

[@Guido_XL]

@@doogleticker5183 Thank you very much, but I have not been that much around the block as it may seem. I am Dutch and I witnessed these events from up close. In the early nineties, I worked for a non-destructive testing company in the Netherlands, especially in the Rotterdam area. We visited the docks workshops then in which the submarines had been constructed. The controversy on the Taiwan deal was big news in the eighties anyway. Later on, I also visited the Royal Netherlands Navy sites and their vessels as well. I have seen the subs from the inside, which is rather seldom for a civilian. I witnessed demonstrations of the Goalkeeper too, which is quite impressive. I will give the video that you recommended a try, thank you for that info.

[@felocie9262]

I had heard of almost all of them other than the Wave Peircing warship. Do you have any further info on that project or know any websites that do?

[@glenn_r_frank_author]

I am sure you have a backlog of amazing aircraft that you want to do videos on, but I thought I would toss in a few more, even if it is just to confirm a few you might already have on the list: The YF-23 (in its competition with what became the F-22), I would love to see what you might produce on the X-33 / VentureStar SSTO craft!

[@petersone6172]

Seems like you’ve focused on the cost of the project and it’s continuation, certainly the Canadian government should have looked very seriously at the possible benefits vs cost of continuation which I think would show they made the wrong choice with a strong suspicion of bribery and corruption involving competing interests from the US. The demise of the TSR2 program is virtually identical.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Thing is… they did look at the cost/benefit. The TSR2 was cancelled because of a white paper that basically said “planes are obsolete, missiles are the real deal” and that was the thinking at the time. The US continued to throw money at defense contracts because it needed them for different roles - the F111 that largely filled the role TSR2 had been built for was designed (and failed) as a fleet air defense missile truck and that was the best they could do to salvage the project. The Arrow was up against stiff competition including the F106, which wasn’t even a new design but rather an attempt to salvage the flop of the F102. Fancy interceptor designs were being cancelled right and left, and the XF108, an obvious Arrow competitor, was also cancelled in the exact same year.

[@skaldlouiscyphre2453]

@@Justanotherconsumer Your insight about the fate of other dedicated interceptors is spot-on. Canada, the UK and the US had dedicated interceptor projects that aimed higher than what could be reasonably achieved. Canada had the CF-105, the US had the -106, but also the -103 and -108 and the Brits had OR F.155. If the US, Canada and UK collaborated they might have gotten one all weather, long range interceptor and escort fighter into service. Sharing the cost of development would have made the project more financially sound; increasing the number of units produced would reduce the cost per unit. Since that wasn't done and technology was shifting all of those projects got cancelled in favour of missiles.

[@jonmce1]

@@Justanotherconsumer They must mean the Russian nuclear bombers that are still flying today.

[@MrTaxiRob]

@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 ... which is what JSF is supposed to be, not just a multi-role, multi-service fighter, but a multinational fighter. And in an instance of history repeating itself, Turkey ended up buying Russian missiles instead.

[@skaldlouiscyphre2453]

@@MrTaxiRob That project is too unfocused. The V/STOL version should have been spun off from the get-go, for starters. But the Tornado and Eurofighter and Jaguar all demonstrated it could be done. At least a mix of Brit, Canadian and American manufacturers would all speak the same language. I don't believe the Arrow needed to be both multi-role and a collaboration. Either one could have secured it's survival and both of them ultimately water it down. Hinting at either one upsets people who envision the Arrow as basically a Canadian YF-12 when it was really more like a bigger, vastly improved F-106.

[@lupusdeum3894]

As I recall, the end of this project was the reason my father who worked on it, decided to move our family to the States. He continued to work in aerospace for decades in California.