Chopin's Most Complex Rhythm (and How to Play It)

[@CordeliaWilliams]

The sound of relish in Fred's voice at 01:55 really makes me laugh! *ANALYSIS OVERLOAD* We are already thinking about ideas for new videos like this so do comment below with any requests for other pieces where we could help you with a combination of analysis and performance/practice tips ;)

[@LukeFaulkner]

I always felt this melody was trying to break free from strict metre - a beautiful outburst of passion and joy, but also with an element of chaos that is explored in greater depth in the fiery coda.

[@FrederickViner]

Absolutely. It's what makes the whole section so poignant to me - the feeling that it's slightly unhinged, about to come off the rails.

[@bongjovi4928]

🙄

[@ComradeToeKnee]

​@@bongjovi4928the fuck is your problem lmfao

[@johnchessant3012]

Can't believe I've listened to this Ballade hundreds of times and never noticed how layered this polyrhythm was!

[@jewgienij131]

Me too

[@EricLeePiano]

it's my favorite part, so i know how hard it is because i tried to play it (and failed lol)

[@thomasmairowski9101]

This is typical for Chopin. If the melody seems to hover over the left hand but without playing it louder it is often polyrhythm. For example: chopin trois nouvelles etudes 1 (right hand 3, left hand 4)

[@WindOnline]

My thoughts exactly…unbelievable

[@minsekfau3218]

My God, finally someone's talking about this mellifluous passage!!!

[@Ben-kh2rh]

I know right!!!!!! Love this passage, practice for many days just to nail out the top voicing notes and play with speed

[@Henri.d.Olivoir]

Every video on Chopin is absolutely welcome!

[@FrederickViner]

Glad you think that! Even so, I think it's time for a Chopin-detox now...

[@Henri.d.Olivoir]

@@FrederickViner Thanks for replying! To be honest, I recommend you doing what makes you happy, that is how you build a nice community and KZbin career!

[@FrederickViner]

@@Henri.d.Olivoir Very good advice :)

[@Henri.d.Olivoir]

@@FrederickViner Thank you! Being satisfied with your work makes you always willing to make more; forcing yourself to record content always results in problems, especially for the creator :)

[@chainuser1774]

I consider Chopin's 4th Ballade to be, in my opinion, the most romantic piece ever composed. It's on my list to learn one day. It's complex but not overly so to point where it outshines the beauty Chopin created.

[@Highinsight7]

IT's GLORIOUS!!!!!!

[@Highinsight7]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bXLGpXpoj9-fptU

[@dubio77]

It’s a fantastic masterpiece!

[@PychStudios]

Trust me, it is definitely overly complex... that's what makes it the most romantic piece ever 😂

[@Ivan_1791]

Man, there is no way, I started learning Chopin's 4th ballade exactly 2 weeks ago. It is my "secret" project for the rest of the year actually, a personal challenge of mine. I love these kinds of coincidences. I imagine your interest on the piece grew lately, I got obsessed with the piece since the month started. I agree it is one of the most sublime moments in piano literature, to me the section in Db major is the purest expression of love through a memory.

[@FrederickViner]

That is a coincidence! Cordelia and I actually had this idea over a year ago, but we've only recently had the time to work on it. Yes, there's a pretty a high chance that we've been playing it at exactly the same time... Best of luck learning the piece. Would you upload a recording sometime in the future? :)

[@Ivan_1791]

@@FrederickViner That's so cool! It isn't the first time I get interested in something and then a content creator I follow posts a video related to it. Thank you. :) I'm not sure if I will get myself to record it, I haven't posted much on my channel because of some personal problems and a lack of motivation. But I would like to for sure, although not making any promises haha.

[@BRNRDNCK]

I’ve maintained for a long time that the measures analyzed here are the five greatest seconds in the history of music. In isolation they’re beautiful, and in the ballade they are transcendental. The whole point of the Db theme is an interruption/relief from the foreboding Fm passage that precedes it. The Db doesn’t answer the problem, it _ignores_ the problem, which is why it inevitably falls apart and collapses into madness. Those two measures are a blissful dance on the precipice of disaster, one final shot at paradise before hell.

[@WindOnline]

Beautifully described, very close to my own feelings of the passage. Transcendental is a word I would use too - to me, this transcendentally-melodic passage represents the highest ideals of humanistic beauty - the tragedy of it is we can, at best, touch it for only a few seconds.

[@alans3597]

Ligeti cited this passage as a major influence on the rhythmic language of his Piano Etudes.

[@FrederickViner]

I just wrote about that in my thesis! I'd love to do an analysis on a Ligeti Etude but Schott Music don't like people sharing their scores...

[@kylelandry]

I absolutely love this passage, and I distinctly remember having to really stop and think on how to tackle this bit before moving on. Glad to see I'm not the only one overly fond of it's cleverness and complexity!

[@NoName-zn1sb]

its cleverness

[@Daniel_Zalman]

It's amazing often some of the most technically challenging moments in Chopin's music coincide with moments of great emotional tension.

[@pyrokinetikrlz]

learning the technicalities of these Chopin tunes, makes me more appreciative of the incredible difficulty of playing them and the beauty behind them.

[@Mythrunerh]

We need a whole piece that's just containing that polyrhythm

[@jwetzel3141]

Arguably the best piece of piano music ever.

[@namelesswolf25]

such a beautiful part of the ballade. There's so many music I want to "unhear" just so I can experience it again from scratch, but this Ballade is at the top. I want to experience it again, be as clueless as the first time i heard it, ultimately falling in love with it again. wonderful video! Love from Hong Kong

[@umnyakyatppitki]

masterpiece

[@Memories_broken_]

Immediately recognised thats its the 4th ballad from the thumbnail. Such a beautiful piece

[@T0NYD1CK]

I love Chopin but started from the waltzes, moved to the polonaises and on to the studies and preludes culminating in the nocturnes. Not quite so keen on the concertos, like some of the mazurkas but have never really got into the ballades. This is obviously something I need to rectify. The thing with Chopin is that, when played well, it all sounds so easy! It is only when you hear someone have an off day in the concert hall or you try and play it yourself that you begin to realise exactly what is going on behind all that "feeling".

[@nopalitosms]

Thank you! Beyond the analysis that helps a lot, I always like to discover how the composer originated and thought about the passage. If you look at the right hand alone, they are groups of four notes where the first note is the melody, as if they were regular sixteenth notes in 4/4 time. Chopin thought of this melody with that group of four sixteenth notes that is somewhat simple but when combined with the left hand it becomes extremely complex. It helps a lot to listen to it many times and practice it slowly.

[@DJazium]

Wow what an incredible (appropriate level of) analysis!

[@mysterium364]

My favorite Chopin work.

[@barcarolleenjoyer]

My favorite moment of all the ballades.

[@emanueleborromeo7370]

Every time i listen to it i cry

[@Tsharkeye]

Love how she comes up with those exercises. I realize i always only do seperate hands and just playing it slow. But actually changing up the piece is something i would never come up with!

[@mashizzung9990]

Pure genius. Literal God given talent. How is it even possible to compose like that...

[@mvmarchiori]

Somehow I was absolutely certain this was the passage you would use haha Ps. Worth to mention this is perhaps the most beautiful and ingenious of his musical devices

[@fg87fgd]

I really enjoy Cordelia's touch. Very subtle. Thank you.

[@LAK_770]

What finally clicked for me was first conceptualizing the RH melody as a quintuplet-over-four in each bar, just to get the notes down comfortably at the right time. But after this, remembering that the intended effect is an untethered, effusive passion that hints at the chaos that shortly follows. It seems to both rush and drag at the same time somehow. The polyrhythm isn’t meant to be taken “literally” per se, it just conveys a singing line that can no longer be contained while also providing a sensibly written accompaniment on the same clef.

[@ryanmanning2319]

It took me a long time to learn this section and a ton of practice. But it has allowed my hands to start to play independently of each other. Sometimes for fun, I will take a beat out of every other measure of one of Chopin's waltzes. I will have to play all of the right hand notes of six beats with only five left hand beats. This disconnects the notes of the right hand with the pulse of the left hand and makes it incredibly fun to play. I could never have attempted this without first learning how to play the passage in Ballade Number 4 you have highlighted.

[@CordeliaWilliams]

This is such a good practice technique @ryanmanning2319 - when I'm trying to get something really secure e.g. Rach 2 with a lot of notes, I always skip out parts of one hand like this, becuase the task of coming in again at the right time stops the autopilot and gets the hands properly coordinated with your brain in real time. 👍But I also that you are doing it for fun!!

[@alistairmcelwee7467]

Such a revelation. Thanks to you both for this video!

[@ikmarchini]

Magari, or I wish I could play like that. Beautiful, informative, helpful.

[@pauladriaenssens]

Simply astounding complexity.

[@hanshead]

I have practiced the snot out of this couple measures. Helped to just listen to Zimerman play it and try and mimic that lol. His recording is the best.

[@deanbavister]

I adore Chopin's writing, thankyou for this very interesting & educational video Frederick & Cordelia, wonderful teaching from you both, utterly beautiful playing 🎹❤

[@realraven2000]

4:40 some very nice drills here - I always contend that the small finger is a powerful tool in playing outer voicings, with independant phrasing from the rest of the hand, which you can also utilize a lot as a separate "player" a lot when practicing Bach. It's similar to the Thumb for middle voices. On the left, we have the small finger providing the bass and the other fingers the chord accompaniment (or 1 or 2 extra voices). Of course it's easier with pedal, but you need good foot pedal technique to make this clearer.

[@lynnchan2259]

what a wonderful video. Definitely the hairiest polyrhythm I have encounter. Thank you for the detailed breakdown on how to practice. Wish I came across it when it was learning!

[@gatesurfer]

Thank you for proving this passage is as difficult as I thought. I have tried step 1 but never thought of the other steps. I don’t know that I have the patience for it, much less the technique. But it’s interesting nonetheless. Now I want to know how to play the famous run in the D-flat Major Nocturne.

[@FrederickViner]

You could request it on Cordelia's channel? I'm sure she'd be happy to help! :)

[@CordeliaWilliams]

Step 2 is really useful @gatesurfer - in fact I have been using it today on the 3rd movement (Scherzo) of Schubert's Sonata D959 to get the melody and the inner RH chords properly balanced! I think it actually takes less patience in the end because it will make such a fast difference to the result so less time practising it...

[@gatesurfer]

Thank you all for the encouragement. One of the problems also is that in my edition, Henle, that passage is right at a page turn and my hands and brain kind of lose momentum. I'll have to get it on a notebook computer, I guess, so I can flip the page without my hand. I really don't ever expect to master this entire piece, but there are some sections of it that are so beautiful that I like to peck away at it once in a while. And that is one of those sections that I would like to figure out.

[@margarethansen7480]

Very nice, love that vídeo❤she’s very good explainig that Ballade👏👏👏! Thanks a lot

[@FrederickViner]

She is! So pleased you enjoyed it, Margaret!

[@stefanhaffner]

My favourite part of my favourite Chopin piece

[@itzelguerra2655]

I am a lifelong Chopin enthusiast and I concur. Possibly my favorite measure of any piece. To the average listener this part does not sound like a challenge. But that is Chopin.

[@girbij6743]

You should do an analysis on Liszt's 6 consolations. I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say about the lesser-known side of Liszt's music. I also think it'd just make a really great video

[@EricLeePiano]

omg THANK YOU for making this video... i am glad you are shining the light on this part of the 4th ballade... it's my favorite part of the entire ballade.... sublime is the best way to describe it

[@wendyfield7708]

Great explanation.

[@FrederickViner]

Thank you, Wendy!

[@JoeLinux2000]

Outstanding advice.

[@MikeFloutier]

When I was trying to get my k/b chops from beginner to intermediate I decided to try learning a few slow (relatively simple 😂) sounding track by Donald Fagen and Chopin, both of whom I enjoyed listening to. I found Fagen’s Maxine a little testing but helpful, with its 56 different chords but I just about got the hang of it after 2 months of driving my wife half crazy. Next (in my innocence/ignorance) I thought I’d give Chopin a try; “They sound so beautiful and simple”. Yup, ignorance! I can only say “Thank you!” to the guys and gals out there who have done it; what was I thinking? 😂🎹🍾❤️

[@hello-rq8kf]

2:22 it took me a second to realize she was talking about the youtuber, not "Freddy C." the composer

[@Vic9994546]

You know my teacher always told me that rhythms like these are more like approximations rather than exact rhythm. You never play them in time exactly unless the music states it that way or else it will sound disjointed and angular, you learn it that way to get the understanding then you make it flexible by making the rhythm and rubato support the melody and then you get the sound

[@nintendianajones64]

"Chopin is the greatest of them all, for with the piano alone he discovered everything. - Claude Debussy

[@davidwright8432]

Hey! There's more to this Chopin dude than I realized. I think in my Yoof I was exposed to what must have been terrible amateur performances. Thanks for straightening me out on this.

[@geertschattenberg4437]

Dear brilliant colleages Frederick and Cordelia thanks for this wonderfull voyage!! You made me happier (on my way to study this part) and please make more of it. The fingering could also be added and please keep out the terrible "analysis overload" noise! It sounds like atomic bomb is on its way while having soft dreams through Chopin. I was trying to find out the brand of the beautiful grand piano....

[@FrederickViner]

You're very welcome! I'm so glad you enjoyed the video. And noted: no more 'analysis overload'...

[@crimsonhawk52]

I always thought the middle section of Debussy's Isle of Joy was surely the most complex, but I never learned this

[@josephmathmusic]

I have also seen 9 against 4 and 9 against 8 in Brahms-Paganini.

[@DdavidoffC]

It's interesting how you can use moments in music like this to track how the average ability level of serious pianists has increased over time. Mozart would never have dreamed of such a polyrhythm. Chopin did. 50-100 years later, it's just throwaway stuff in Russian music. And at the same time, nearly impossible things that push the limits of what a human can conceivably do with a piano were being written. Now we're pulling back a little; composers like Carl Vine are writing piano music that's still exceedingly difficult by most standards, but at least manageable for skilled non-professionals. It's all very fascinating.

[@thomasmairowski9101]

Thank you very much for these methods and small tricks to learn these passage. I learned the g minor and after that I "felt in love" to the f minor. Because of the passage in the video from 07:30 to the end I repeated the etude C minor (the Op.25 No.12 ) I learned 5 years ago. So I was looking forward to have the right preconditions and tried to learn from the end to the beginning to avoid playing the beginning more often then the end... Of course the Cis minor Impromptu (10 years ago) is helpfull... But no, this is to much for me. What a pity.

[@nezkeys79]

My fave polyrhythms: Bach Prelude in Cmajor and C minor

[@ballb29]

Wow didn't know Ivo Graham was such a musical theory genius

[@willschneider4616]

Using tremolo to practice an arpeggiating middle voice is clever.

[@brucehain]

Great! I was never able to figure that out. I'm trying leaving out half the notes in the bass to get three against four. It's still very confusing but if I get to an 88-key instrument I may get another chance to play the Fourth Ballade. A Russian virtuoso clued me in on how to play the coda - those thirds are not legato! It's a lot easier.

[@Paganini-Liszt]

Polyrhythms are annoying when you get used to the metronome. I literally started with Ballade 3 because it was the easiest for me, then Ballade 2, Ballade 1, lastly Ballade 4. I feel like Ballade 4 should be the final Chopin piece that you will be playing, since it is a fusion of lots of pieces like the Torrent, Ocean, Waterfall etc. (It's currently impossible for me to play all 4 Ballades magestically, I have difficulties with voicing. I guess we all have different techniques with our playing)

[@eggimage]

thanks for the lesson, Cillian Murphy

[@FrederickViner]

I'll take that

[@nintendianajones64]

He's obviously blind

[@ludwigamadeushaydn706]

Medtner's op 1 no 1 does something similar, very pretty

[@fernandom.7444]

Very interesting ❤

[@FrederickViner]

Thank you!

[@Dysoncordlessv8vaccumcleaner]

How should I start practicing this piece ?

[@PaulBierce]

Hearing these bars in isolation, I'm struck by how much this sounds like Scriabin.

[@benharmonics]

2:50 3:13 3:24 3:57 4:10 4:21 5:03 5:34 6:36

[@HenryMcManus]

Thanks

[@michalbouda5944]

I feel like something similar happens in middle section of nocturne op15 no2 in f-sharp major.

[@FrederickViner]

I think you're right! I talked about that piece here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f4awdndmf9d8fJY

[@1258-Eckhart]

People with this level of skill make me feel very small.

[@prototropo]

Ah Chopin, so devoted to making our lives agonizingly lyrical.

[@cattybac2247]

thats prelude and fugue 6

[@WalyB01]

Good old nested tuples Chopin style.

[@Chopinzee613]

I wouldn't necessarily agree that this is the rhythmically most difficult passage of the Ballade. Two against three is something most pianists learn to do early on; the trick here, then, is to use the upper fingers of the right hand to bring out the upper melody. Fingering is important here. I find that the fingering in my printed edition (Mikuli) doesn't cut it. For the first measure in the right hand, I use: 523-142-315-241-423-152. Using the second finger (not the thumb!) on that second Gb really sets me on the right path. What I found more challenging was two pages earlier--the third and fourth measures of the beginning of this section, where you have two times a ten against six, which resolves to five against three. I learned to do this by learning the right and left hands completely separately. The triplets are no problem, and then you have to learn to divide a "measure" into five parts, which is a little strange but not impossible. Just count steadily: 1-2-3-4-5-1-2-3-4-5. Once you can play hands separately perfectly on these, then putting the two hands together is not so difficult; you just think of playing two different pieces of music at the same time!

[@Ivan_1791]

I still find this passage harder than any 10 against 6. But I have assimilated 3:5 to my bones lol.

[@Chopinzee613]

@@Ivan_1791 That's great!

[@Alksinder]

Il y a quelque chose de magique, parce que quand vous connaissez parfaitement les deux mains séparément, quand vous les assemblez, tout s’écoule et dépend de la sensibilité musicale de celui qui joue. C’est comme ça qu’on me l’a appris. Tu as raison sur tout ce que tu dis.

[@PeterFamiko-lw8ue]

Great

[@nezkeys79]

Lol the wine drinking meme 😅😂

[@FrederickViner]

I relate strongly to that meme...

[@sloppysorabji]

so this is where Sorabji got inspired to be a polyrhythmic fiend from

[@rubinkatz9850]

if the Band "Yes" would compose a piano piece - it would be this

[@bmahoney2315]

Doesn't strike me as being as hard as aeolian harp's, etude 25-1, polyrhythm, 6/8 triplets over 5/4 or something like that. I haven't tried playing this piece so I don't know. Anybody out there who plays both of these who can weigh in?

[@WhiteArtsMagic]

My brain hurts

[@tfpp1]

My method of learning that passage takes fewer steps: Step 1: play a lot of Scriabin first Step 2: play this passage 😂

[@creativelife108]

😄😄😄

[@victoza9232]

Hemiola should be a medical term: ex. "Ya, know, my Aunt Gerty died from a hemiola of the liver."

[@mickeyrube6623]

Sound like something I would write...only I would just program it digitaly, repeat the two measures over and over again for 25 sec, add standard rock drums, and call it a "song." Oh yes, and there would no way in hell I could actually play it😅😂😅!

[@jandd8678]

but.. but.. I wanted to keep watching till the coda was completed!!!

[@Nobilangelo]

Miraculously played by a triplet poly-woman... ;-)

[@markus7894]

So interesting! It is a bit similar to the last descending run in a-minor in the op 25 no 11 (kzbin.info/www/bejne/j3uwenyuopaVfdEsi=9h9aecsK0dgpYtLn&t=192), where we have similar groups of 4, but in a triplet rhythm, in the right hand, over a duplet rhythm in the left hand.

[@johnburniston6525]

What about Liszt Anee Peleriage-Italie.You must know the passage [ 5 sharps].Playing the notes is not easy,let alone the timing.

[@ronb6182]

Me a concert pianist dream on. I will stick with electronics and let the electronics play these pieces. 73

[@NickHolum]

Would really help to hear it against a metronome

[@carillonberlin5424]

This is a simple two against three. I think the fantasy-impromptu which is four against three is much more challenging!

[@markisaacsvideo]

But why do all classical-only pianists (Cordelia included) inject surging rubato waves into the polyrhythms so the exact ratios are lost and a layered melange results, compounded by not having enough gentle onset stresses to set the units off against each other. We're not going to really feel the polyrhythms unless it's absolutely metrical with enough stress at all of the various subdivisions, so there's a audible hierarchy of unit onsets in all those ratios. This passage can GROOVE! Not at all "slightly unhinged, about to come off the rails" as Frederick Viner said in this thread, which can be a cop-out to avoid the difficult metricality, but in fact: with PRECISE, controlled emotion.

[@SonicPhonic]

It's easy when it goes fast, lol.

[@GPPiano]

Hold up, when I saw this video's title, I was like, huh, I wonder what piece it'll be, then I read the music on the thumbnail and I was like, hold up, that part is considered is most complex rhythm??? I just learnt the notes and accented the melody and it kinda just put itself together.

[@piano-music]

The only mistake was ignoring the first beat (7:01, Des). It should always be present.

[@kpunkt.klaviermusik]

This rhythm is pure anarchy. I would play the 16th triplets of the right hand very light and almost unnoticeable. But the melody totally out of space and time. It's not a Ligeti piece!

[@Mazurking]

Scriabin: coughs

[@Ivan_1791]

Shouldn't that be Chopin? He had tuberculosis.

[@Mazurking]

@@Ivan_1791 I bet Scriabin let out a cough or two in his lifetime too.

[@kpunkt.klaviermusik]

Yes, Alexander was the master of polyrhythm!

[@Ivan_1791]

@@Mazurking God can't cough.

[@RaptorT1V]

*Correct form:* _Scriabin: hold my beer_

[@RaineStudio]

This 3-against-2 with offset accents is much easier for me than the 4-against-3 of Rainbow.

[@ronb6182]

I'm lost on these type of pieces. This is as bad as fantasy and impromptu the only way I can play these pieces is to use my computer or CD player. Oh I tried slowing down the keyboards version but it cannot be slowed down enough for me to play either hand. If I could practice the piece playing one hand with the keyboard then maybe after a thousand times or so I could play both hands slow and only then speed up a notch. I will just stick with the preludes they are doable. 73

[@thomassicard3733]

9 over 6 is NOT NEARLY Chopin's most complex rhythm. It's super easy to play, because it barely qualifies as a "complex rhythm". Simple himeola. Explore Chopin's music further and you will find much more complex - truly complex rhythms.

[@thomassicard3733]

You can play "like that". Slow to fast, relax. Take your time. LET it be easy.

[@michaelh.6082]

KI will do it much better...😂

[@biopump2000]

the lady has a noble look

[@leo32190]

Lmao this is just another 3 against 2

[@themobiusfunction]

no it isn't