Freedom from the Burden of Judging - A Conversation with Michael Wilcox (Part 1)

Hey everyone, this is Aubrey Chaves from Faith Matters. This week, we're thrilled to welcome back Dr. Michael Wilcox to the podcast. Michael is an esteemed author and longtime Institute teacher, and his previous episodes, which we released in two parts as "God's Many Voices" in episodes 85 and 86, have been some of the most listened to in Faith Matters' history. It's been three years since we last had him on, and we're excited to dive into another meaningful conversation.
In this episode, Michael shares his profound insights on the topic of the marginalized, particularly focusing on the experience of the LGBTQ community. Michael's wisdom draws from his own life experiences, wisdom traditions he deeply loves, and great literature.
Michael also addresses the challenge of navigating differing beliefs and values, urging us to avoid calling down "fire from heaven" on those who worship on different mountaintops. He speaks about the importance of forgiveness, and what he calls the "Lazarus Law," reminding us that every individual has a name and a story, deserving of respect and compassion.
Throughout the conversation, Michael's anecdotes and reflections encouraged us to approach the marginalized with love, humility, and a genuine desire for understanding. We found Michael, as always, to be filled with transformative insights that we thought could really help us build more inclusive and compassionate communities.
We’re also releasing an additional conversation as a companion to this episode. In it, Brother Wilcox shares a really personal story that highlights some of these principles, and if you’d like to hear more from Brother Wilcox, it’s on the feed right now.
Thanks so much as always for listening, and with that, we’ll jump right in.

[@user-ki6rd2rw7s]

Thank you for this. My dad had a sex change operation back when I was about 25. I had 2 little children, and started having nightmares about seeing my dad. He finally called one day and asked to see me. I hemmed and hawed, and said I'd get back to him. I went to the temple fasting and praying, and hoping that the Lord would tell me I didn't have to see my dad again, but that's not the answer I got, of course. A memory came to my mind of being asked that, if I only had 3 more minutes of sight, what would I want to see? And I had answered "The faces of my children." The Lord then sent the Spirit to tell me that I couldn't keep my dad from seeing my face or the face of his grandchildren ever again; I knew it would be a terrible sin to do so. I was also reminded that Jesus said to love everyone as He had loved us, not "love everyone, except..." It was the hardest thing I ever had to do, and I was often depressed when my "aunt" came to visit. But my kids loved their "aunt." They all had such happy memories together. I learned then that God truly is no respecter of persons, and that we can't be, either. I did my very best not to ever harm my father with my words or actions, and I know that we were all blessed for so doing.

[@renatep.7566]

What a powerful story! Congratulations to overcoming your initial thoughts and to remember what Christ taught us, it must have been very tough, can’t imagine what I would have felt like in your position. ❤

[@GODISMYSTERIOUS]

@@user-ki6rd2rw7s Is your dad a LDS? Did the church give him some advice before your dad’s operation? In some circumstances, a church intervention is a good thing. I met a Polish family on one Christmas Eve through my classmate. I noticed a man in the family party snorted cocaine. I reported to my classmate. Then she spoke Polish to the hostess. I didn’t understand Polish but I could comprehend her angry tone about that drug user at the party. The family told me they were Catholics. I saw a Cross and Mary statue in the living room. I felt it was an insult to the Holy Spirits having all those holy statues in the living room and a drug user was snorting cocaines in front of them. I always feel that the Devil is very busy to target Christ’s believers. Catholic Church has too many members but the priests are too busy about preaching, teaching, conducting rituals and ceremonies as well as managing worldwide charities and the matters of domestic politicians and businessmen. I wish every church, every congregation has several elders like Jehovah’s Witnesseses. The elders give sincere advice if they find out some improper behavior or lifestyle of certain members. If they can’t find a better solution, they consult the governing body of higher level. I like a church which cares about the spirituality of its members and not just the donations.

[@GODISMYSTERIOUS]

@@user-ki6rd2rw7s It takes a very big heart to love and forgive. In the end, it is a family. It’s a good thing that your dad reached out to you and you accept him.

[@Zorroinstillingorthodoxy]

Since most people's circumstance makes it difficult to join an ideal church, it's only feasible that God planned for us to live where we live and interact and help the people we find ourselves with, even if our faith does not perfectly match theirs, and this includes the Church we find ourselves in. It's advantageous to make friends with those you think might hold closer beliefs to yours, and limit conflict with those you disagree with. Religion is like math, it gets more complicated -although more rewarding, the longer you study it.

[@robertlewis7208]

Amen 🙏

[@alightinthestorm]

Found him on my mission to Ohio some 18 years ago. Brother Wilcox, you’re one of the great thinkers of our faith. Thank you for all you do to build the kingdom 🙏🏼

[@Daniela_Explored]

Watching from Prague and thrilled to be the first to love this episode. Love the integration of other faith traditions to better understand my own. And nobody has provided me a better tool to understand myself and my spiritual journey than The Chronicles of Narnia. They are part of my my religious cannon:)❤❤❤

[@richardellsworth840]

I and my wife enjoy and learn from your podcast. Thx so much for your insights and guests. I especially appreciate bro. Wilcox. I lost my first wife to brain cancer at 37,my second wife to a heart attack after surgery and my wife now is 4 months post from Thyroid surgery. I so can feel his grief/ love for his dear wife. I love his compassion and stories and this newest one has helped to be me into changes in myself. Bless you all.

[@TS-iv9ml]

I'm so sorry for such great losses 😢 I'm grateful He continues to bless you in this world. I hope your current wife recovers from her thyroid surgery. Having lost mine to cancer, the challenge post thyroid surgery is to find a doctor who recognizes each individual's requirements for the Right type and amount of thyroid hormone replacement for her situation. Blessings & love to her 🫂

[@GODISMYSTERIOUS]

Michael Wilcox is such a good teacher. Please bring him in often to discuss any topics he wants. His talk is beneficial for the audience. I love to hear what he says.

[@TS-iv9ml]

2nd, 3rd, 4th & on to infinity!! The #1 guest teacher ever!

[@GODISMYSTERIOUS]

@@TS-iv9ml I think many people feel the same.

[@amandadangerfieldpiano]

He’s one of my favorites. I don’t really remember it, but he was my family’s bishop in the years before my parents divorced when I was 7.

[@GODISMYSTERIOUS]

@@amandadangerfieldpiano I have joined a number of churches in my life. I chose churches and I left them on my own accord without saying anything. I have never had a church leader to approve me anything. Anyhow, I got good advice from my junior school teacher and baptized on a Sunday service without my parents to look on. My mother often said she was shamed if I didn’t dress well to a church . So I often dressed very well to go on Sunday service at my prebysterian school which was attached to a church. My sister didn’t go to church. I was excited that I didn’t need to wear school uniform on Sunday but a beautiful dress. I left the church after my family moved and I went to a Baptist high school. After I came to the U.S., I got a very good pastor at a Pentecostal church. My neighbors, a couple drove me there every Sunday, dropped me at that church before they went to another church. I got baptized in a water tank. I left the church because my work and my evening study at my university became too hectic. I needed time to study. The pastor wrote me many times to invite me to visit Israel. I ignored all those letters. I didn’t call back to the given telephone number to leave a message why I left the church or simply yes/no to go to Israel. I just ‘disappeared’. After I finished my MBA degree, I told myself I was done with the study. I sought a church. Then I met a Jehovah’s Witness. I liked the church organization. There were elders helping the church members about their issues and they were happy to give advice. The JW seldom excommunicated their members unless your behavior was very unchristian. Michael Jackson was excommunicated. His mother was then a fervent JW. I liked the church. Though deep in my mind, I questioned about 5 percent of their beliefs. I saw the members and elders live a Christian life and I knew JW was right for me. I had my marriage annulled under the advice of an elder and got baptized again in a huge water tank in August, 2000. Shame on me, I again left the church in year 2004 quietly due to my work situation. I quietly joined a number of small congregations, so I didn’t need to stand on the streets to preach. I finally joined as a member of a Lutheran church in 2008. I enjoyed the worship. The holy hymns and ceremonies impressed me. Then in 2015, I sensed the strong political atmosphere led by the pastor, a female pastor. She was a strong Hillary supporter. In a tight connection of sisterhood, I was the Facebook friend with other sisters in the church including the Pastor. I looked up their Facebook accounts. They all have very hateful remarks against Trump with sarcastic cartoons. On the other hand, my former professor called me telling me that Trump was running for presidency and she was going to vote for him. I felt the strong hate against Trump and the supports for LGBTQ in the church. In my mind, it wasn’t Christian behavior. So I finally decided to leave St Paul Lutheran Church in 2017 after Trump became the president. I didn’t want to feel the heat and unfriendly attitudes toward me because I didn’t donate money to democrats activities. I just left the church without bad mouth toward anyone. I deleted all the sisters and the pastor from my Facebook. They were nothing to me, I said. Until now I have not joined any church again. I know I will need an organized church, probably Jehovah’s Witness or a Catholic Church one day. There is no church with the complete truth. Only God knows the whole truth. When Christ comes back, those live in the new world will learn the new knowledge. I told myself that I have to think of the good side of a church instead of the minor inaccuracies of a church. As long as I can feel peace at a church, I would like to become a member of that church. We all need an organized church to take care of our final matters. So one day, I will be a church member again and I want to be a devoted one after my retirement.

[@judymacc]

We need to get Jordan Petersen and Michael together. And Robert Millett or Jared Halverson!! That would be an interesting round table!

[@kerryweaver2072]

Jared Halverson is actually MIchael Wilcox's nephew. I always wanted to be a fly on the wall in those family discussions!

[@kuyalems]

Bro Wilcox is Back yeeyy

[@RowanBlake]

To bring about change we need people willing to tear things down and get loud but we also need people willing to heal and build back up. So not everyone is going to get out there in the streets and protest. maybe their role is to heal those who have been harmed and build a better society back up.

[@renatep.7566]

I am so happy the hear once more from Brother Wilcox! I have listened to his podcast God’s many voices, many times before going to sleep, and I just forwarded it to our senior missionary couple who had not listened to it, they were also amazed. I could listen to him all day, there are so many eye openers which inspire me to try and become a better person. Looking forward to part two of the conversation! ❤️

[@TS-iv9ml]

I found Dr Wilcox years ago ❤ he has helped me live life more fully teaching me to use spiritual eyes ✨️ I know my 4th watch God. I am so grateful for him, how he shares, teaches; how he is able to integrate and teach peace making and loving self & others 💔❤️‍🩹💝

[@amandadangerfieldpiano]

Same here.

[@robertlewis7208]

Love the sinner hate the sin we are all sinners though are sins are different 😢we all need to repentance through the Savior

[@GODISMYSTERIOUS]

I am glad that I didn’t feel marginalized at all when I was among the LDS. Maybe, some ladies were curious about me but they made me feel comfortable with them. When I was with LDS, I saw only very friendly men and women who were well mannered.

[@nadinek5638]

He gave the most non judgemental answer and continuance to have , really about anyone who sins.

[@GODISMYSTERIOUS]

I would like to hear more from Michael Wilcox like this type of topics. He has deep insight about life. I am not a deep thinker. I listen to this lecture part 1 and part 2 again and again to understand the principles and deeper meaning. I see now those principles can be applied to almost every aspect of our lives whether in a workplace, a gym or any place. We can’t control people’s thinking. On our part, we at least do not marginalize people. God calms me every time when I feel something tricky is working behind me. Recently, I start to doubt a situation after I returned from a trip. I asked myself, ‘Am I discriminated by that woman in the gym management?’. She often asks me ‘Do you enjoy your swim?’ in the lady locker room. It is a very causal greeting. Besides that, there is no other conversation between her and me. So there is no friendship. I sense something wrong on my gym app on which I have booked my reservation of a swimming pool lane since day 1. All of sudden, I cannot book my swimming pool lane on my gym app as the time available is up to 4 pm only every weekday. I talked to that woman, Rhonda, in the management about the issue. She told me that all the lanes have been booked after 4 p.m., so there are no lanes available after 4 p.m. and that’s why I don’t see any lanes available after 4 p.m. on my app. Well, I have tried throughout the week, days and nights, 5 days, 4 days, 3 days, 2 days and 1 day in advance to book a pool lane for Wednesday and Friday evenings. There is no availability at all after 4 p.m. on my app. Without talking to the same issue to Rhonda in the management, I called the reception desk to book a lane for me for an hour on Wednesday and Friday evenings. The man and the woman there immediately booked a lane for me successfully for the evening hours even my gym app didn’t show the availability of any lane in the evening hours. I have been calling the reception desk to book the swimming pool lanes for me since the recent three weeks. I have not missed any week after I returned from my Ireland trip in June till I travel again in August. I don’t want to make a mountain out of a molehill. I don’t want to talk to Rhonda about the same issue again. She is the boss in the management. I stay quiet if there is no further issue to make me difficult. I will keep calling the reception desk to book my reservation. I look back to my life, I thank God for keeping me safe and calm. I get around many situations most of the time instead of confronting people who have waited for an opportunity to start a ‘war’. Some people do marginalize people. Some people are not happy about themselves. So they want to make others unhappy. There are also some people simply jealous and wicked. I will not let the miserable people make me miserable. I remain who I am. Enjoy myself and distance myself from fake and miserable people. Whether it is true or not in my gym hour situation, I know I don’t need to find out. If I find it out the evening hours are available on somebody’s app and not mine, am I going to sue the gym for discrimination? Definitely not! I stay in peace. God knows! I know that truly kind people who do not discriminate people are very hard to find. Even in a church, some women and the female pastor were not kind but filled with hates and bias due to their radical political minds. A true Christian should not harbor hates. What a church it was! I don’t care about a church which is in the name only. People matter. If the people are unkind in a congregation or an organization, I leave those people quietly. If I don’t leave such people for whatever reason, I will put up a ‘respectful fence’ around them. I don’t need to hate the unkind people but keep a ‘friendly’ distance. Stay alert! Honestly, I was not born a sociable person. Probably, I am a very socially awkward person. If God chooses a friend for me, that person must be a truly good person with an open heart who can make me feel comfortable with. That person will not discriminate me even when the others look at me in a very different way.

[@Zorroinstillingorthodoxy]

Two of the closest examples of this gospel are churches established by two of Christ's apostles, Bartholomew (who John called Nathanael) and Thaddeus. These churches are the Armenian Apostolic Church, which is Oriental Orthodox, & the Assyrian Church of the East -which follow the East Syriac Rite. These two apostles also brought the gospel to neighboring Mesopotamia, and parts of Asia, laying the ground work for the 4th century St. Nicholas in Turkey, who was the real Santa Claus.

[@GODISMYSTERIOUS]

As I listen to this very interesting lecture again and again, I discover Michael Wilcox’s tune is funny, ‘physical!’. I learn from Zacchaeus’ Law that we need to offer front row seats to short statue people and don’t put them onto a tree. It’s very dangerous! A tree branch may break.

[@amandadangerfieldpiano]

Thanks, Brother Wilcox. Good stuff to think about. I do hope every person on earth seeks truth: Knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come (Doctrine & Covenants 93:24). Truth also refers to light and revelation from heaven. Truth shall spring out of the earth, Ps. 85:11 (Moses 7:62). Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free, John 8:32. I am the way, the truth, and the life, John 14:6. [copied from Guide to the Scriptures]

[@lightscenters111]

very powerful discussion. thank you so much. I wish youd specifically discuss shunning.

[@paulagraves6517]

They are great principles for living together but there are contraries to prove here. Where do you draw the line on compassion or whatever the Dutch word was that you used? People declare that truth is relative, you do you. So that opens a pretty big door. A child molester is simply doing what makes him or her happy or I should say satisfied. Why weren’t the sadusees and the Pharisees considered marginalized? After all their belief system was simply messed up just like other peoples believe system is messed up, but Christ got after them very severely and as you said, he drove the money changers out of the temple. Are we no longer to protect the sheep from the wolves, if there are no wolves because everybody that doesn’t believe the way we believe is marginalized? I used to feel that to stand as a witness at all times and in all things and in all places was a bold and noble thing, but if you do that now you will offend some one in every direction. It makes one feel like a wet noodle.

[@GODISMYSTERIOUS]

Isolation or cancelation happened not only in a community but also in a family. When the family members were controlled and manipulated by a mother because the father was often away and he had another family, the mother Influenced her children to fully support her side. If one child among all her children stayed away from the gossips and bad words spoken against her own father from day one, she was seen as disobedient and an outcast. The whole family would gang up on that child and isolate her.

[@renatep.7566]

Very sad, indeed! 😢

[@GODISMYSTERIOUS]

@@renatep.7566 Yes. It was sad. It was my experience. I had a biblical teacher at my primary school to teach me and my class to rely on Jesus. Back in the day, my school had very good teachers. My biblical teacher told me a lot of stories about Jesus filled with her feelings and emotions. I still remember her name, Chan Jun Kwong（陳真光）. 真means True， 光 means Light。 So her Chinese name despite the surname means True Light. Jesus was in my heart. I didn’t want to argue with people or family members who were narrow-minded and unChristian. We know Cain killed Abel, Joseph brothers plotted to kill Joseph. So it was better for me to stay quiet and not to tell my mind to my own family members back in those days. They often isolated me and I also distanced myself from critical family members who thought they were much smarter than me. They saw me foolish and naive. They belittled me. So be it. Let them be the number one. I have to add that my mother was not that evil. She had a soft spot. When she was in a good mood, I volunteered to offer help to please her. So I got stipends. It was like any day with unpredictable weather. Sometimes it was sunny and next day it was cloudy and pouring. The U.S. has trained me to be a stronger and independent person. I voice my opinions in my workplace when needed. Otherwise, I stay quiet. Now I just learn something and I will keep in mind these 2 questions: Is it helpful? Is it useful? If something I am going to say may mislead or stir up more problems, then it is not helpful and it is not useful for me to say. I will keep a matter to myself and see what will play out. In the end, we have to trust God. Keep our prayers!

[@user-fw8yd6ew5b]

So glad you found God to overcome such sad history, God and Jesus bless you my sister❤

[@GODISMYSTERIOUS]

@@user-fw8yd6ew5b Thanks🙏

[@GODISMYSTERIOUS]

In the environment I grew up, I am glad that I am very comfortable and content with myself. I can eat alone and dance alone and pay no attention to the others because I know God is there. If people want to join me, make sure they are not troublemakers. Otherwise, I will walk away from them. Under the influence of my mother and my sister, I have lost trust in most women. I can’t imagine how women are attracted to other women, yikes! It is not a natural attraction. I believe that God creates men and women and we are attracted to opposite sex like magnets. It is natural. I cannot understand pride and LGBTQ. Nevertheless, in view of humanity, we should not deny or reject any human beings. Judgement belongs to God and not me or every one of us. I have listened to this video at least 5 times in order to comprehend a little bit deeper about this lecture. It is indeed very interesting and a very good lesson: ‘Don’t call fire down from Heaven.’.

[@jjfranco0426]

I like your new set -

[@DeanneSanchez]

Although I appreciate the thoughts , we all have put ourselves above other as being better than others The church needs to repent and teach people to do better and stop the attitudes when someone decides to leave We are all Gods children No matter who we are or where we live or what church we are in or maybe we are not in a church God loves all he sees all he knows all If it divides it is not of the divine Rabbi joe charnis Isn’t it time to look at people with the way God does . The best way to be an example of biblical living is to love people . The lds leaders need to do a better job putting thier words into action And actually lead and show the church the principles of love and service Sitting in thier cushy chairs at conference and spouting all thier rederick Of how much they care doesn’t line up with thier actions , how dare they hold themselves above everyone else , how dare they . The church leaders need to repent and change a lot of things and tell people that they are sorry for the pain hurt they have caused so many . Many people have been excommunicated unjustly . I think God is not pleased with this type of behavior We should be following God and his word he is our salvation our rock our fortress our defense On him we rely 2 great commandments l love God with all your heart and live your neighbor as yourself. Have a blessed day ♥️

[@thawts9087]

I recommend studying Luke 12:51-53. Division has always been a part of the process, the division comes because of our actions and choosing to or not to follow Him. Commandments are meant to be divisive, either we follow God or we don't. "Ye cannot serve God and mammon".

[@Ironrodpower]

Non intellectual drivel.. moral relativism is Not what Christ taught.

[@user-ki6rd2rw7s]

But love is what changes people. Yes, we have standards, and we can always let people know where we stand, but if we have someone in our life who's different, love makes all the difference in the world for them. Pedophiles need to be removed from the society of children, but there's nothing that says, 'don't visit them while they're in jail.'

[@tsmithson1]

How is this "non intellectual drivel"? or promoting moral relativism? What then is the proper moral response to one you feel is acting immorally? The gospel, as far as I can tell, applies to both the sinner and the saint. If the saint responds to the sinner by advocating that the sinner be stoned, then is the saint now just as guilty as the one he wants to stone? I don't see that the gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes anything other than to practice loving, even your enemy, or those who have found themselves on the wrong side of the law. There is no moral imperative to react with harshness and judgement, only to ask, what good is needed to help this person who also needs healing. Your comment is everything that has made religion incoherent and uninhabitable. More evil has been perpetuated in this world in the effort to eradicate evil than any other thing.