Frigate Duels of the War of 1812 - HMS Shannon vs USS Chesapeake

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Today we take a look at the fourth true frigate duel of the War of 1812, with more to come!
00:00:00 - Intro
00:01:55 - Chesapeake vs Shannon
Episode 1 (Constitution vs Guerriere) - kzbin.info/www/bejne/joLUdGh8l7N5b7M
Episode 2 (United States vs Macedonian) - kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHvLl2uglt6mbdk
Episode 3 (Constitution vs Java) - kzbin.info/www/bejne/b4DKk4GHebV8n5o
Naval History books, use code 'DRACH' for 25% off - www.usni.org/press/books?f%5B0%5D=subject%3A1966
Free naval photos and channel posters - www.drachinifel.co.uk
Want to support the channel? - www.patreon.com/Drachinifel
Want to talk about ships? discord.gg/TYu88mt

[@Drachinifel]

Pinned post for Q&A :)

[@lonjohnson5161]

In your opinion, did the US Navy need this defeat (loss of the Chesapeake) in order to reduce arrogance and possible worse tragedies later on? In other words, is there an American bright side to this event?

[@nicholaskoa1371]

the music is sending me mate lmao well done well done

[@sharkman2857]

Throughput the age of sail, was the primary limitation on innovation (for lack of a better descriptor) ideas or material? IE, if you went back to the start of gunpowder-armed ships with a blueprint for the weaponry and hull of the Chesapeake or Shannon, could they build it, or was the primary limiter on ship size/quality more industrially fundamental? Most of the Age of Sail innovations mentioned in your videos *seem* to be purely new design ideas rather than new "technology", but it seems to me like a military would've stumbled over such things a long time ago considering how much money and effort went into the things.

[@KevinTarling-rk6gi]

Thanks, a great video 😊

[@vikkimcdonough6153]

Why did the Royal Navy keep using open sighting hoods on their battleships for so long, given the serious limitations this placed on turret layout and firing arcs due to the need to avoid disabling other turrets with muzzle blast (for instance, why the RN was so late to adopt superfiring turrets) and the fact that these open hoods could allow the blast from a shell bursting outside a turret to nevertheless enter and wreck the turret?

[@peterwilding3515]

When HMS Chesapeake was broken up 1819 her timbers where used to Build a mill at Wickham Hampshire England that still stands, some of the timbers still show the scars from battle in 1813

[@daveweiss5647]

That is actually a really interesting bit of info, it would be very cool to go check it out some day. Amazing how historically nothing was put to waste compTed to today... "ship is no longer useful? Let's build a mill out of it"...

[@The_ZeroLine]

Those scars are from a Van Damme training montage actually.

[@bakters]

Did you touch those timbers? How did it feel?

[@RCAvhstape]

@@daveweiss5647 Modern ships are sold for scrap metal, not exactly a waste. The bronze propellers in particular are worth lots of money.

[@daveweiss5647]

​​@@RCAvhstapeyeah... still not as cool as just making a functional building out of one....

[@Alex-cw3rz]

Captain Philip Broke introduced many really interesting and useful innovation. He had tangent sights fitted to his cannon, which was very unusal at the time. He had the elevating 'quoins' (wedge-shaped pieces of wood placed under the breech) of his long guns grooved to mark various degrees of elevation so that his guns could be reliably levelled to fire. As the decks of contemporary ships curved upwards towards the stern and bows, he cut down the wheels on the "up-slope" side of each cannon's carriage in order that all guns were level with the horizon. He also introduced a system where bearings were incised into the deck next to each gun; fire could then be directed to any bearing independent of the ability of any particular gun crew to see the target. Fire from the whole battery could also be focused on any part of an enemy ship. Broke drilled his crew to an extremely high standard of naval gunnery; he regularly had them fire at targets, such as floating barrels. Often these drills would be made into competitions to see which gun crew could hit the target first and how fast they could do so. He even had his gun crews fire at targets 'blindfold' to good effect; they were only given the bearing to lay their gun on without being allowed to sight the gun on the target themselves. This constituted a very early example of 'director firing'. He also used a 9lbr cannons at the bow as a giant sniper rifle to specifically take out the helm. In the end this meant that Shannon hit Chessapeake with 4x more cannon shot and 1.2x more with grapeshot than Chessapeake hit Shannon with and that was in an extremely short battle showing the huge advantage his training had given. It is such a shame he was injured because he could have been so much more influential.

[@Tindometari]

So basically, he was the Admiral 'Ching' Lee of his time. 👍

[@Alex-cw3rz]

​​@@Tindometari I'm not sure what you are referring to as I don't know much about him?

[@wellwell7950]

​@@Tindometari ah of course some American has to come along to claim an American did something too. When it is in no way comparable

[@Tindometari]

@@Alex-cw3rz He was a WWII commander, noted for training battleship gunners up to using their 16-inch guns as essentially sniper rifles. He personally recalculated the ships' fire tables, introduced corrections for earth curvature and Coriolis force, was an early adopter of integrating radar positions into fire-control solutions, and produced battleship gunners focused on maximum possible accuracy.

[@wellwell7950]

​@@Tindometari not one of these things was an innovation or unique. I don't think there was for example one British battleship around at the time that didn't do all of these and obviously a few other US battleships did as well

[@nicholaskoa1371]

BRO WROTE A WHOLE LOVE LETTER TO THE CHESAPEAKE HOLY BRACKY

[@mitchm4992]

Broke roaming the deck giving orders while hucking hand grenades on to Chesapeake is one hell of a mental image. Damn.

[@chrismaverick9828]

Sounds like something a US Marine would do. I can respect such a man for his effort where so many commanders would hurl only orders and epithets.

[@notshapedforsportivetricks2912]

I just hope that Broke was bowling legitimate deliveries and that he didn't dismiss that box of cartridges with a no ball.

[@davidlavigne207]

As a Yank, all I can say is well played HMS Shannon. I have studied this action many times and can find no fault with Captain Lawrence and his crew. They were simply out fought by a noble British officer and his well trained crew. Captain Broke would have been the epitome of the kind of officer admired by the fictional Jack Aubrey in the Patrick O'Brian series; "Close to point blank range, give them three broadsides, then board them in the smoke." Bravery on both sides was evident throughout this fight. Well done Drach!

[@micnorton9487]

Yeah Captain "Lucky" Jack Aubrey was a captain in the truest Nelsonian tradition: His order to his sailing Master on master and commander, "lay me alongside at pistol shot," the first time I saw that I'm like "JESUS Christ these guys got balls of steel" ...

[@31terikennedy]

During the opening of the fight, didn't Lawrence's initial course have him crossing the T at Shannon's stern, which means he could have raked her? Instead, he turned so both ships could have a broadside. Didn't the Brits say he was gallant for doing this?

[@davidlavigne207]

@@31terikennedy Yes it did at first seem that the Chesapeake may have been maneuvering to rake the Shannon, but Lawrence seemed to desire a close range broadside engagement to disable Shannon, cause casualties and board her. Both Broke and Lawrence were gallant officers with similar approaches. Shannon's crew were trained in gunnery to the nth degree and simply outfought the American gun crews. There was equal bravery and gallantry all around IMHO.

[@31terikennedy]

@@davidlavigne207 Lawrence was thinking in terms of a fair fight and that's why he didn't rake. He was thinking in the same light when going into the broadside and didn't fire immediately and expected Broke to do the same. Broke didn't and fired first, gaining the advantage. Lawrence was playing by Broke's rules and Broke wasn't.

[@davidlavigne207]

@@31terikennedy That is an excellent point that I also noticed as well. It's difficult to say that Broke was being a little unfair, but it could have been a bit of "Buck Fever" and an itchy trigger figure on his part. I think it was just a part of his tactical plan, seeing that Chesapeake had come alongside he felt he had done all that honor required. If it was underhanded, he certainly paid for it with the almost mortal injuries he received. Good observation all the same. Thanks for your opinion. Sorry that you could not like my last reply. No offense.

[@RexsHangar]

Fans of Patrick O'Brien's Aubrey-Maturin books will know this battle from "The Fortune of War" 😁

[@farstrider79]

One of my favorite books of the series. Patrick Tull does a decent Boston accent in the audiobook.

[@RexsHangar]

@@farstrider79 I've only listened to the audiobooks narrated by Ric Jerrom (who I heartily recommend), but I'll check out theones by Patrick as well!

[@farstrider79]

@@RexsHangar I've heard they are great, a friend of mine recommended his reading, but Patrick Tull was the only option when I listened through the series on Audible. I just finished last month after three years, it'll be a few years before I'm ready to do it again! 🤣

[@RexsHangar]

@@farstrider79 haha! that is fair enough, I do a lost of long-distance driving (Australia is big) so I churn through those audio books on a weekly basis. I'll definitely give Tull a listen :D

[@caelestigladii]

Never heard the audiobook version before. Might do so now as I’ve read the series at least once a year.

[@christopherreed4723]

This engagement, with its shockingly quick and devastating outcome, reflects the truth of the exchange in the movie "Appaloosa" between Everett Hitch (Viggo Mortensen) and Virgil Cole (Ed Harris). Hitch: "That was quick." Cole: "Yeah. Everybody could shoot."

[@nicholasmarshall3191]

I lived in Salem, right next to Marblehead, (I am from Brighton UK). I was lucky enough to see the USS Constitution sail into the waters around Marblehead in the mid 90's. As a lad, I enthusiastically toured HMS Victory, and much later, a few years ago I toured the Constitution.

[@mrbloodmuffins]

I first heard about the Shannon and Chesapeake in the novel "Starship Troopers" when an officer academy instructor was talking about the historical battle where a 3rd Lt. on the Chesapeake who brought the wounded captain below decks but didnt realize he was the senior able bodied officer and had just deserted his post. The discussion was on the responsibilities even a low ranked officer could suddenly find himself bearing on the battlefield.

[@BishopStars]

The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.

[@The_ZeroLine]

Lieutenant Rasczak should serve as a role model for all liberals or better yet everyone.

[@keithskelhorne3993]

@@The_ZeroLine you do know that Starship Troopers was a satire on " right wing politics"?

[@keithskelhorne3993]

true, but, Provo William Parry Wallis, 3rd Lt on the Shannon, ended up as Admiral of the Fleet! XX

[@keithskelhorne3993]

@@BishopStars this is why we have 2 hands,,, ?

[@01ZombieMoses10]

What a truly hellish battle. I don't think many frigate duels can claim so many dead and wounded... this unfortunately is what happens when two crews of hardened, elite soldiers come face to face and fail to back down. All of war is a tragedy, but seeing so much potential being cut down at once should make no one satisfied.

[@subashbose3827]

If one is going to have a fighting navy one has to be prepared to lose. Thank you for your sober analysis. Kindly consider doing a video about the Chesapeake Mill in Wickham, which was built out of the remains of the USS Chesapeake. It is a bit like being below decks on the USS Constitution, and the Mill likely has far more original fabric from “The War of 1812”.

[@comstr]

The batchall, compound word (BATtle CHALLenge), is the ritualistic challenge of combat issued by Clan warriors, often as part of a Trial of Possession. It almost always involves the attacker announcing to the defender their identity and size of their forces, the objective of their challenge, and a request for what forces will oppose them. The defender then responds by identifying what military forces they intend to use to defend the objective and may choose the battlefield the challenge will take place on. The defender is also able to ask for a prize of equal value that the attacker must surrender should they prove victorious. Once the particulars have been agreed upon the challenge is closed with the phrase "well bargained and done" spoken by both participants.

[@Isteak80]

That letter of challenge is one of the most impressive and civilized I have ever heard/read.

[@richardhartman5234]

My father rode into the Algier's harbor in 1942 on HMS Broke, named after Captain Philip Broke, in Operation Terminal, a part of Torch. The destroyer was carrying some 200 American soldiers from the 135th Infantry to secure the harbor for the invasion of North Africa.

[@captainvladmir7535]

Lovely symmetry.

[@joelborden3242]

Thank you. Recently completed six frigates and naval war of 1812. Your info nicely supplemented what I’ve read.

[@jaiclary8423]

This is one of my favorite naval stories(as much as any story about people dying for dumb wars can be a favorite) and I can't express enough how much I appreciate your well-researched and nuanced take on it! Thank you!

[@RCAvhstape]

This is the best explanation of this battle I've seen anywhere. Capt. Broke sounds like a fine officer. And the savagery! These age of sail battles are always viewed so romantically, with the officers being so polite to each other, but when the shooting starts, they are as bloody and brutal as anything seen in any war ever. I can't imagine serving on one of these ships, especially if I were already an experienced veteran and knew what was about to happen to the guys around me and possibly myself. That takes a lot of bravery to focus on doing your job in that situation.

[@yes_head]

That letter. 😆 Shame Lawrence never got it, although I can just imagine as he read it thinking "When will this guy just shut up?"

[@amh9494]

In those days their attention spans weren't that of ADHD suffering knats, look at the papers of the day, you won't make it through half of one article.

[@keithskelhorne3993]

have you?

[@foximacentauri7891]

@@amh9494 ​​⁠when will this guy just shut up?

[@amh9494]

@@foximacentauri7891 you can end it you know

[@6thmichcav262]

It wouldn’t be any fun if he just cribbed, “TLDR, you wanna go, bro?” And much less poetic.

[@sideshowbob]

I was eagerly anticipating your description of this engagement. You cleared up a couple things I'd read / heard over the decades from various sources: - That Lawrence had issued a last minute appeal at the Boston docks for additional crew & that in addition to the usual 360+/- crew there were another 80-90 new recruits of questionable value, who actually hindered the proceedings by being in the way / taking up space. You don't mention anything about this so it seems like just another myth. - That Lawrence had an opportunity at the beginning of the battle to rake Shannon but chose not to out of Chivalry, & that Broke was un-Chivalrous in return by purposely disabling Chesapeake's wheel. You described WHY Lawrence chose not to rake Shannon due to his choice of using chain shot to dismantle the rigging. It had nothing to do w/"male appendage length" lol. Thanks again for your usual Exemplary work. Huzzah!!!

[@erichammer2751]

The court-martial of Acting Lieutenant Cox of Chesapeake was so blatantly a case of the US Navy department looking to find a scapegoat. I'm sure his shade got a warm, fuzzy feeling when Harry Truman reinstated him in 1952!

[@richardcowling7381]

Pity Drach didn't mention William Brown, a negro bugler, who was sentenced to 300 lashes plus loss of pay for cowardice, for failing to blow his bugle at a crucial moment in the battle, having just witnessed the utter carnage caused by Shanons broadside.

[@heofonfyr6000]

so what's new? Republics are notoriously corrupt

[@SirWilliamKidney]

Yay, more adventure on the high seas! These are some of my favourite videos that Drach does. On a side note, there's a lot of spam bots in the comments already, make sure to dislike and report the comments if you have a chance :)

[@Drachinifel]

I block them as fast as I can

[@briannicholas2757]

An excellent accounting of this very famous battle.as usual Drach takes us right into the action and his play by play and color commentary is reminiscent of a sports match. While the fledgling American navy had well built ships, excellent captains, and highly motivated and experienced crew, we can not ignore that the Royal Navy could boast the same. Once the Royal Navy recovered from their initial losses, and transferred sufficient experienced, larger and capable ships to meet the challenge, with the best will in the world, the American Navy could only hope to inflict pin price damage to the Royal Navy. And both services always maintained the highest degrees of honor and duty to their respective nations.

[@jtoddjb]

you are so dang good at this. I've been subbed for a long time and I've been enjoying these for years. Just good damn job man

[@acfangaming]

I gotta admit. The British gave us a good one on this case. Hard fighting well trained men who truly locked in.

[@therealuncleowen2588]

I've come to believe that the United States and Britain are so firmly allies, partially because our relationship began with several wars, much like they say that Australian male friendships often begin with a fist fight. The theory being that both parties realize they respect each other during the fighting, and see something of themselves in the other. On a personal note, in many ways I feel that the course of my life has often been determined by timing. I'm past 50 , never been in the military and happily employed as an accountant. Had I known as a young man the history and purpose of the USN as I've learned it from you, Drach, during the last several years, I believe I would have sought a career in the Navy. Not saying I would have been anything special. I can imagine any veterans reading this rolling their eyes at me. Misery, drudgery, lack of sleep, standing watch at all hours, yes yes I understand. But to know you were part of something so much bigger and more important than yourself, probably still not worth it. LOL

[@MatchGrade08]

Nah. The fighting caused the US to have to seriously think about its relationship to Britian. Having serious christians instead of mostly in name meant things could be forgiven unlike the never ending Britian and France thing. In the end it was decided that the US should have nothing to do with Europe. It was only after ww2 where the US was at the top did the plans to fight no long be considered. Today after a lot of lowered morality you can find a lot of people in US government willing to side with a lot of evil people. The US has positively trade with many other countries it would end up fighting or having problems with including the USSR, many in the middle east nations and China. I heard there were incidents of friendly fire in ww2 due to Canadians not under standing American English and shooting people thinking they were Japanese. Things have for sure not been friendly. There was just no war over.

[@Mark-xv5lb]

Lawrence is buried at Trinity Church on Wall St. in NYC. Many (most?) simply walk past his tomb en route to that of Alexander Hamilton.

[@davidlavigne207]

The last time I was in NYC, I bothered to visit his grave, if that is any consolation. I didn't bother with that of Mr. Alexander's.

[@Mark-xv5lb]

@@davidlavigne207 I went there to look at all the early headstones with characteristic death's head and cherub carvings, then saw Lawrence just to the left. Unexpected, but I paid respects.

[@JonathanLundkvist]

7:10 As Admiral Gilad Pelleon would say: "If you want fairness, arrange a shockball tournament. Do not look for it in Warfare". Also on the Sci Fi Note, I first heard of this battle as it was mentioned in Robert A Heinleins "Starship Troopers" as an example of a certain third lieutenant.

[@andrewfanner2245]

Chesapeake Mill in Wiickham in Hampshire incorprorates some of the timbers from when Chesapeake was sold to be broken up. There is a Roll of Honour on display, which is a little memorial to those who Did Their Duty. The battle itself, or more preccisely Lt Cox carruing Lawrence below is even referenced in Startship Troopers if you read the book.

[@LucaZ283]

What a magnificent channel, with the nice little models to clarify the manoeuvres! Thanks!

[@TheOrdomalleus666]

15:00 Ah, the glorious days of gentlemanly combat. I am so amazed by such events.

[@chrismaverick9828]

As an American I will tip my hat to Broke and his gallant and skilled crew. Well fought, sir. Well fought.

[@ciuyr2510]

a very well fought battle very well narrated

[@robertmills8640]

Well Laurence was avenged by his friend O.H. Perry, who's flagship was named USS Laurence at the Battle of Put-in-Bay(Lake Erie) later in 1813.

[@thekinginyellow1744]

As I'm listening to this, I'm wondering if Willis "Ching" Lee had a biography of Broke sitting on his desk. The innovation and the attention to detail seems remarkably similar.

[@TK-fk4po]

The interesting thing that I heard was that, after being captured, and serving for a while in the Royal Navy, the Chesapeake was eventually scrapped, and her wood was used to build a mill somewhere in the UK. Supposedly this still exists.

[@jchrystsheigh]

Yep we fought the world's largest navy and . . . lost. But some excellent frigate duels and Captain Broke implemented some amazing ideas into how SHANNON fought. He came correct that day.

[@MatthewAtkinson]

That was a great video. Thank you!

[@charleslarrivee2908]

Actually, the myth of Chesapeake being unlucky started almost from the moment she was being built; for various reasons, including a personal disagreement between Josiah Humphreys and Josiah Fox, she had been built to slightly different specifications than even the other two 36-gun frigates, and was always something of a black sheep. Which wasn't helped much by the whole aura that surrounded the ship as a result of the affair with Leopard. And of course, although Chesapeake's individual seamen were good, there just wasn't enough time to form them into a true fighting crew.

[@sideshowbob]

USS Chesapeake: "I'm a Cursed Ship" USS Philadelphia: "Hold My Beer"

[@billb3444]

My previous post disappeared. Grew up around Broke Hall Suffolk UK. Some of the Chesapeakes cannons still around there today. Moved to Chesapeake Virginia. Funny old world.

[@BleedingUranium]

Wow, what an amazing letter, it's a shame we don't see that sort of respect anymore.

[@mattheide2775]

My favorite part was Dracth reading "Rules of the Duel". Interesting how a Captain would challenge another. I would like to ask when Chivalry and Honor at Sea went out of fashion? Please keep the history and knowledge flowing.

[@user-hw1qo2mu9e]

Thanks Drach.

[@sobersubmrnr5443]

The prefix USS was not adopted until 1907. The US frigates were referred to a 'US Frigate Constitution,' etc.

[@Apollyon-er4ut]

Great vid. This wasn't the first time that British gunnery practice won the battle. That lesson was taught to the French and Spanish years earlier.

[@user-cj6fn1iu9m]

Patrick O'Brian's account of this battle in "The Fortune of War" is a stirring account which gives an insight into Phillip Broke's character and methods. A highly recommended read!

[@amh9494]

"We'll thump em, again and again!" Said the random merchant who had never seen combat in his life. 😂

[@magnusthereddidnithingwrong]

lol, I was JUST talking about this battle with some friends while discussing the Patrick O'Brian books. In the books, Jack Aubrey was aboard Shannon during the action after escaping from US custody.

[@waltermelyon4300]

O'Brian was good to criticize Broke for his "little Navy" comment. The Fortune of War was mostly about the demoralizing effect of US Navy victories over the British and the death of Diana's identity within Maturin's subjective mind.

[@Penstone]

Drachinifel can I just say I have admired and followed your content for a good few years. I am grateful for your constant dedication to working out the facts of history as much as is possible. You are a true scholar and worthy of support in this age of click driven media.

[@jonmce1]

Very nice, but a little weird, long standing have many Americans claimed it was un untrained crew on the Chesapeake(which would mean Lawrence and Bainbridge were completly incompetent which they were not) but based on your comments the Shannon had a much higher proportion of untrained crew. Not that long before the battle, Shannon took on 30 to 40 essentially Irish landsmen from thr privateer Sir John Sherbrooke who previously took an American ship that held them as prisoners. So 10% of the crew had no experience at all, of course the rest were extremely well trained. In the video you menstion the ships were of a size but Chesapeake was a heavier ship of varying accounts. There is an account written by a young woman in Halifax who watched them come into harbour. She describe the Chesapeake as larger and a fine looking ship, the Shannon as blackened and worn looking. Anyother thing I came across was the master gunner of the Shannon was an American volutarily working for the British. Although there much repeated correct descriptions of American citizens forced in to the royal navy they would have been registered as British because it was illegal to force American citizens to serve. But there was a significant number registered as Americans who would have been volunteers.. Many probably joined before the war of 1812 started.

[@0cujo0]

Oh so needed this Thank You! :-D

[@DJackson531]

I've heard this battle described as the most intense 15 minutes of combat fought by any nation during the Napoleonic Wars in a 1v1 situation. The sheer number of men killed and wounded in the struggle certainly supports this idea, even if I am uncertain if it is the absolute truth. 709 men were engaged in this fight and 226 of them became casualties; a stunning 32% of them. Almost 25% of HMS Shannon's men fell, as did just shy of 40% of USS Chesapeake's men. While I can point to other units in history that have staggered out of battles with even higher loss rates, most were engaged in battle for hours to suffer that kind of harm. .Also agree with Drach that the USS Chesapeake, while not the top tier of the American frigates, was no slouch. In most navies she would have been a proud frigate, in the high A to low S tier (as the kids say these days). She simply had the misfortune of taking on THE S+ tier frigate of the Royal Navy, if not the entire world. Even frigates USS Constitution and USS United States, under the command of their best commanders, would have found HMS Shannon a challenge to defeat in a 1v1.

[@scottymac5174]

A Naval Duel. Back then it was a question of Honor.

[@hohetannen4703]

So happy with this extra frigate content! Maybe you can find some from the golden age of piracy early and late and or some fleet battles from the broader 18th century? Would be cool to see all sorts of these actions and how they played out! Even perhaps more obscure naval stories exist revolving around the Jacobites or something or other? What of the frigate that carried Charles Stuart? Or what about actions during the 7 years war or even earlier? Very cool stuff. Also: If you haven’t played the game Naval Action, you ought to give it a try! Nothing beats a good frigate v frigate pvp session

[@tiagostein4057]

The absurd level of politeness and honor on the challenges is almost funny.

[@Ashfielder]

It’s not always the ship that decides the battle, sometimes a good captain and his crew can swing the odds.

[@user-rn5ks8sf5x]

It occurred to me that naval actions of this period may have been the ultimate development of the duel between men of honor. You must be accumulating quite the fleet of ships models. Perhaps you could do a video on your collection someday.

[@williamgreen7415]

Thanks!

[@nomoss9600]

I just started watching “How Not to design a warship” when this notification popped up. I’ve really been enjoying this series so this one first. I’ll go back after this 😊

[@charliegiammarco5178]

Yeah this has been a really cool series

[@999theeagle]

Shortened translation of that letter. "Coward, fight me!"

[@tokencivilian8507]

Great narrative Drach. Thank you.

[@JayVeeEss36]

Glad I got through Patrick O'Brian's The Fortune of War before this episode dropped. Always have been a big fan of your work Drach, your telling of the event will greatly compliment O'Brian's story telling

[@The_ZeroLine]

Have you read The North Water by Ian McGuire?

[@caelestigladii]

Been waiting for this 😊😊😊

[@TheKencoffee]

I love the nuanced, qualified, and cordial shite talk.

[@jeffholloway3882]

I really have come to enjoy this series, bravo zulu. And, if you are, or when you do, welcome home.

[@jeriendhal]

Any chance you might do a five minute review of the USS Constellation (currently a museum ship in Baltimore's Inner Harbor)?

[@boobah5643]

Ah, a living reminder of the USN's 19th century habit of misappropriating Congressional funds. Specifically, Congress paid money to have _Constellation_ refit and refurbished, while the Navy spent that money to build a new ship while pretending it was the original refitted.

[@johnshepherd9676]

Constellation was Ryan Szmanski's first museum ship.

[@bigsarge2085]

Incredible history.

[@nerva-]

Definitely one of your better videos. Hat's off to Broke - he won that battle fair and square.

[@urseliusurgel4365]

The 9-pounders were mounted on carriages specially designed by Broke, so that they could be traversed quickly and had a an ability to fire at greatly increased elevation. Though it was normal to use the 'long nine' 9-pounders as bowchasers, being unusually accurate ordnance, they were mounted on Shannon at the break of the forecastle and at the break of the quarterdeck, not at ports in the bow.

[@sideshowbob]

Well they could be moved easily due to the custom carriages, but yes, for this particular battle, where they wouldn't be needed as bow chasers, you are correct in where they were mounted for the battle. Otherwise they wouldn't have been as devastatingly effective.

[@urseliusurgel4365]

@@sideshowbob Though there seems to be no detailed description of the carriages, or even better, diagrams, I think they must have been much higher than usual, both to allow greater elevation and, I suspect that, they could be fired over bulwarks and the hammock netting in the waist. Later, the 74s raséed in the War of 1812 were each equipped with two 12-pounders in 'elevating carriages', which could have been derived from Broke's design.

[@rjeffm1]

Many years ago, when I was an instructor at the RCN's Fleet School in Halifax, mu office window looked out towards the harbour, and overlooked the graveyard of the former RN hospital where some of the dead of USS Chesapeake are buried. Occasionally, when USN ships visited, I would see delegations of their crews visit the site. It was always moving to see this. Bless them all.

[@MrFarmer110]

Man, HMS Unicorn looks terrible. The poor girl needs an overhaul ASAP.

[@vespelian]

I read an account of severed and mutilated fingers sticking up from Chesapeake's deck after the action, and that Chesapeake's marines were armed with slow loading rifles which put them at a disadvantage with the Royal Marines at close quarters.

[@marvinacklin792]

Brutal!

[@hobbitomm]

Excellent as ever. But no mention of Provo Wallis?

[@driptrooper2183]

More of this plss

[@rl-762]

That situation with the LT who brought the captain below deck was mentioned in the Starship Troopers novel. I didn’t know that the court martial was due to propaganda reasons, very interesting

[@urseliusurgel4365]

Broke's surname was pronounced 'bruk', as in a brook (small river). Similarly, Home was pronounced 'hyoom' and Fetherstonehaugh was and is pronounced 'fanshawe'. Upper-class affectations.

[@tombogan03884]

12:29 Can you imagine the absolute S storm such a letter would cause any time since ? LOL

[@KevinTarling-rk6gi]

It is interesting that the Chesapeake Mill in Wickham, Hampshire is supposed to have been built with reclaimed timbers from the US ship when it was broken up in Portsmouth

[@michaelimbesi2314]

It’s probably not impossible. At that time, Britain was very short of lumber. In their effort to build the Royal Navy to the size it was, the crown had basically stripped the entire country of large trees. So any timber which wasn’t fit for shipbuilding but was still large enough and sturdy enough for constructing large buildings would have been valuable enough to be worth transporting.

[@rorythomas9469]

Wickham is about 10 miles from Portsmouth

[@shannonman2]

Yep, been there and touched the timbers.

[@Excal500]

@drachinifel Curious of your opinion, but from all that I have read or seen, in the age of sail it appears the most vicious pound for pound fights occurred between the Royal Navy and the USN. Thoughts?

[@LinusNapoleonicShipyard]

Sweet! Something for breakfast tomorrow!

[@B1900pilot]

One of the bloodiest frigate actions of the Royal Navy. A well- fought action by the HMS Shannon.

[@deaks25]

Broke is an absolutely brilliant commander. He apparently worked his crew hard to make them the very best possible it was apparently quite fair. He understood that accurate, disciplined gunnery was the best way to fight a battle (Hear that Beatty!!). It’s a genuine shame a captain of that quantity never got to command at sea again, but I suspect the Royal Navy as a whole benefited from his focus on gunnery quality and training. And both crews fought hard, apparently this was one of the bloodiest naval battles of the war. That doesn’t happen in a one-sided fight and shows how evenly match the ships and crews were. I can very much recommend HMS Unicorn and HMS Trincomalee as museums to visit. Unicorn is estimated to be 97% original but in ‘Ordinary’ status, while Trincomalee is in ready for sail condition.

[@Self-replicating_whatnot]

Bucket of grenades XD

[@m.streicher8286]

That letter should become a copy pasta in the naval youtube space on second thought, character limits may scuttle that

[@jona.scholt4362]

"Choose your terms but let us meet".

[@Giddog40]

Even as an American, something about Broke just casually tossing grenades the whole time kinda had me rooting for them (I’d never heard the story before)

[@tommiatkins3443]

Langdon Miniatures, eh Drach? Good taste sir!

[@shaider1982]

Lots of viewers probably knew this battle from a scene at the officcer's school in the novel Starship Troopers.

[@michaelholt8590]

As an American and a soldier who has known some British military. It's a little weird hearing stories about the USA and Britain waging war on each other. Even though technically that's how my country was formed.

[@Mrhalligan39]

While it think it is fair to say that the Chesapeake did not have a substandard crew, it cannot be said that Shannon did not have a substantial advantage in terms of crew training. The results of the initial highly accurate gunfire prove this out.

[@lexington476]

2:32 what does it mean when a ship is paid off? does that mean the crew gets bonus pay or all their pay? Does a crew not receive any salary when it's at sea?

[@Archie2c]

I read about this in the time life frigates book but lead me to believe Lawrence did not clean his deck for combat before sailing

[@spikespa5208]

Perhaps you are thinking of the Chesapeake's encounter with HMS Leopard in 1807? James Barron did not have his ship ready in all respects when he sailed.

[@Archie2c]

@@spikespa5208 possibly it was 1993 when I read it last it being 2024 I'm a little rusty.

[@smsluck13]

What ship minis are you using in this series?

[@AbeGreenleaf]

I don't think that it is disputed that Chesapeake was the worst sailor of the smaller three of the six frigates. That being said the battle came down to tactics and the wind, and it really didn't make a difference that Chesapeake was a worse sailor than her sisters as speed did not factor into the tactics of either captain in any meaningful way.

[@cleverpete]

As good as Lawrence was (and he was good), you have got to have a bad feeling about any battle where circumstances dictate that your ship isn't being led by Captain Evans.

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

Tactics aside - Lawrence's biggest mistake was taking on _Shannon_ in the first place. The RN had lots of Frigates - it didn't really matter if they lost one - if they could damage a Commerce Raider and have them being repaired - as long as they were not out there Commerce Raiding - the RN had won. If they beat the Commerce Raider - so much the better. That is why Brooke was issuing those Challenges. It wasn't important whether or not he won - it was important that he do enough damage to send the Commerce Raider back to port for repairs. The RN had lots of Frigates. What it wanted to prevent - was Commerce Raiders harming it's Shipping. The American Navy did NOT have lots of Frigates so each one it lost was a significant part of it's Navy - and - a significant blow to it's ability to Raid British Commerce. .

[@eh2341]

Is it possible for you to look into, "The Battle of Lake Champlain"? Same war. Different outcome.

[@guaporeturns9472]

Well Don Drach, next how about the USS United States vs HMS Macidonia?

[@Drachinifel]

Did that one a couple of months ago, check the links on the description :)

[@guaporeturns9472]

@@Drachinifel ah thank you. I have a lot of catching up to do

[@MrNicoJac]

It sounds like Lawrence might have stood a _way_ better chance if he'd gone around the Shannon first (pass astern), before turning in and coming up besides her. That way, he wouldn't have had the weather gage, wouldn't have created a wind shadow, and would've been better able to shoot its loaded ammunition types into the things it was designed for - the rigging. Of course, the Shannon would not have just allowed a stern rake, so they would've turned as well, and all the above would've been precluded anyways... So I suppose the only real cause of the outcome was a mismatch between weather gage and strategy from Lawrence. Weird how so much death can result from such a small coincidence...

[@merafirewing6591]

How different would things play out if Chesapeake had her veteran crew and officers.