From Schumann's "Chopin" to... Mozart

Video, theorizing and keyboards by Michael Koch.
This time an extremely nerdy video on a modulation pattern that I'm tracing from Schumann's "Chopin" (Carnaval, No. 12) to Chopin, to Mozart and eventually to the Rule of the Octave. Sheets are available on my Patreon site:
www.patreon.com/posts/pdf-bun...

[@jaurisova6]

I love this - so much connection between Chopin and Mozart! My personal favorite example of this type of sequence is from Chopin’s F# minor prelude. It’s basically a hulked-out figuration prelude built primarily from this motion.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Yo, THAT is a rate AAA+ example... Some time ago I made a harmonic reduction of the whole piece with the purpose of showing a student the 6-5er... Seeing this, one comes to the assumption that Chopin must have perceived that 6-5-thing in this kind of modular approach as well... Still kind of a radical piece though. Hulked-out figuration prelude indeed. Luv it

[@CarlosRosalesRoca]

Two days ago I just started studying this topic and its melody caught my attention... I heard it on the subway and I couldn't get it out of my head... I found the score and I started studying it... I have no studies piano... I study everything on my own, looking at KZbin I found your video... I am very grateful for all the explanation you share. Subscribed.

[@MusicaAngela]

Excellent work and discoveries, Michael! And your fantasy at the end is so beautiful! Bravo!

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Tanks a lot Suzanne!

[@Poeme340]

This gorgeous piece was ubiquitous in films from the 40’s and 50’s. Very interesting video-thx!👍

[@Stukov16]

Like Hitchcock's Notorious

[@bornaerceg9984]

Adore this type of sound!!! ❤❤❤ Great video, thank you!

[@NichtWunderkind]

Wonderful video as always

[@onlyflatspiano]

Omg, what a beautoful video, tyvm

[@hawkbirdtree3660]

Fantastic tutorials. I love this

[@pseudotonal]

Such quality work. I need to see this again. There is much for me to learn here.

[@JanCarlComposer]

Great video, very instructive content. Thank you.

[@carmee8]

Schumann is my favorite for many years so this video touches me deeply, thank you 🙏

[@musicjotter]

Beautiful modulations! I love the classical and romantic eras, so this video resonated well with me. I may have to dig deeper into Schumann's music.

[@fredhoupt4078]

I just discovered you through this video. Really enjoyable and the variations on the theme was a pure delight. I thought that I heard textures pointing towards Rachmaninoff! That particular Schumann piece is a favorite and is so beautiful. I look forward to hearing more of your podcasts.

[@paulrhodesquinn]

I’m getting obsessed with your videos! This is gold 🎹😀

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

lol I‘m happy to hear that

[@niccolomaldera]

Really great contents. You are always amazing. And on Wolfie and Shopan I laughed a lot ahahah

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

THX man! :D

[@alexfetchina9416]

Always a treat!

[@robertocornacchionialegre]

The new flat looks cool! :D

[@reenko]

BRAVISSIMO!!

[@frixosmina6004]

Well done.

[@thekeyoflifepiano]

It's always so surprisising how much romantic composers "took" from the classical/galant era. Video idea: A video about Scarlatti style fugato where the theme is a direct repetition an octave down.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

lol, actually there is a constant, uninterrupted tradition which modern musicology turned into a succession of disconnected eras - at least how it's commonly perceived. Fugato: One of the first videos I made on this channel was "double counterpoint and imitation" which is exactly on this kinda topic. It aged a bit haha but the general content is still solid

[@timothyj.bowlby5524]

VERY interesting. Thanks. BTW... did you know that "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" modulates to the supertonic degree and then back? It would make sense for it to do so since, in baseball, the idea is essentially to move from home to 2nd to home again. I'm sure the composer consciously designed the music to do just that... and for that reason.

That Fantasia by Wolfie is pretty fantastic (🥁), not gonna lie. Also, love the Emperor's comment! 🤣

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

To me the Emperor's scenes in the movie are the most hilarious :DDD Love this guy

[@epicduckrex994]

thank you

[@lerippletoe6893]

We had discussed in comments Schumann's Morning Songs #1 earlier. That and this specific movement are the 2 Schumann things I had printed out because I was fascinated and wanted to figure them out. (Well I also looked some at Symphonic Etudes maybe you also like his little block chord canon thing haha.) It is such a beautiful little eureka type moment I hope Chopin could have taken it as well-intended even if he didn't like Schumann's music at all. Wouldn't Mozart himself have inherited this from the Italian baroque direction, not only the technical fact of its use, but the whole ship of Theseus that would become his style? The Mozart example I know of is piano concerto 20, movement 1, about 7 minutes in, after a solo piano section when the orchestra is returning. He does it for 3 steps and there are also flat 9s on the dominants. I guess it is tonicized down 3 up 4 with an intervening predominant. The part that seems most novel to me in the Schumann movement and his generation in general is that developmental sequences are being used as "first things". You think the first harmony is a tonic harmony but it is retrospectively made as if it were degree 5 and so the melody note the 5th of the chord is scale degree 2, and degree 3 is ambiguous until it pleasingly decides to be a the flat option which I guess is the only one that works for the rhyme being set up AND as a dominant b9 idiom, if you approach a major 9 from below it probably just sounds wrong. I feel like the real pro move Schumann makes that made me love this, is that when he repeats the sequence having Bb minor go to F minor over Ab the same way Ab major went to Eb minor over Gb, you cut off the rest and move from F minor to Db/F and you have a ^6 ^7 ^1 in Ab major, finally giving the Ab major the sense of home it was deprived of! Also the fact that the same melody line is repeated sequentially but the 2nd time it is a more consonant option somehow arriving home whilst the idea set in motion was departing. Also C Db being ^2 ^3 in Bb minor and the final part ending with Db C being ^4 ^3 in Ab major, this music is evidently so much focused on what I saw some theorists call the double agent complex where a note's different role in different harmonies becomes the hinge of a phrase. Not only are there "double agents" at a note level there but the whole melody pulls something akin to it when it repeats up a step. I absolutely love these microstudy vids, finding those short examples that fascinate me "what did they do there" is one of my biggest motivators

[@JazzGuitarScrapbook]

That Mozart thing is so cool

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

It's nuts innit?

[@JazzGuitarScrapbook]

Wait - Bee Gees how deep is your love?

[@will.sagastume]

Yes, it is!

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

I'll check! Long time no see though :DDD

[@ethanmulvihill7177]

lol yep

[@JazzGuitarScrapbook]

@@en-blanc-et-noir life on mars, David Bowie as well

[@JazzGuitarScrapbook]

Oh - also I think the original Mancini Days of Wine and Roses. I hear a half dim 6 4 3 in that.:. Certainly the 1-b7-6-2 bass is standard. Most jazzers play a French Sixth there, which is nice but the half dim option sounds sadder. But of course that’s the baroque RO compared to the Gallant…

[@FalcoPaul]

Fantastic video. Have a question though. From a 'harmony perspective', it seems like these are a 'sort of' II-V-I (chord) progressions? I could be wrong but looking at the C to D-minor example (at 11:30 in the video), then an interpretation would be as follows: starting from C (tonic and basic I chord) the next bar moves to the 6th degree of Dm (B-flat) with a 3-4-6 (= figured bass notation) chord. This is enharmonically equaivallent to an E-minor seventh flat five chord. The Em7-flat 5 is actually the II chord of Dm, albeit with an added seventh, and enharmonic to the 3-4-6 chord on B-flat (both in D natural minor and D harmonic minor). Obviously the 3-4-6 on the 6th of Dm has a B-flat in the bass, but another interpretation would be to view this as an inverted Dm II chord (with added 7th). After that, a Dm-V (harmonic Dm, that is) and a Dm-I chord. Is this interpretation 'legit' or am I completely off here?

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Thanks! LOL that chord(s) is a good example how Roman Numeral analyisis can be a very impractical analytical device: is it just the 6th-chord on the 6th degree than it'll be the iv/6, is it the 3/4/6 chord it is the ii/3/4/6 although both chords look pretty similar and the 4 is just a dissonant "add on" on, so basically an option. To me it makes more sense to declare the horizontal bass line as the primary feature of this progression, as the conept of Rule of the octave includes both of the chords as equivalent options for a 6-5-progression in the minor scale. If you know the Rule of the Octave this progression makes a lot of sense as it is practically a segment taken from a pre-existing harmonic template that one already knows. I know you guys always feel the need to give a "functional explanation" but the longer you do it in terms of figured bass / scale degrees the lesser important this functional perspective becomes. I don't wanna discuss chord roots, especially not when it's a half diminished seventh chord: how can E be the "root" when there is a dim 5th above it anyway? Conceptualize it like this: the descending 6th degree in minor (regularly implying a 6th chord or a 6/4/3-chord) is a common harmonic constellation that prepares a dominant chord (thus systematically is what's called a pre-dominant). Besides that, it makes an attractive modulation pattern. Isn't this all the information you need? Why asking for roots?

[@johnrothfield6126]

Some enchanted evening

[@ClaireODonnell]

*Sigh*Swoon* oh the 6-5 gets me every time

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Same!

[@PaPa-kr5yt]

Hey Stevie Wonder - Sir duke? It's a little twist, doing same b6-5 but do not resolve to 1, but going to its tritone, creating nice loop and chromatic vibe.

[@nickpollockpiano]

❤❤❤❤

[@NikhilHoganShow]

6-5!

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

6-5-style! There is actually so much stuff about this device, one could easily compile a lenghty video just with analysing exposed 6-5-situations in original compositions, especially sequences.

@@en-blanc-et-noir well... you know what to do. :D

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

lol

[@NichtWunderkind]

The early music sources video on the rule of the octave had a quote saying that the RO is a gift from god, maybe they were right haha

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

LOL could be though! I think this was referring to the treatise by Campion... but these connotations are a reoccuring topic when it comes to the rule of the octave. Dude, when I saw this thing the first time I already had continuo lessons for some time and I was like "I KNOW THIS THING ALREADY" ...just from playing a lot of basso continuo you're kinda already used to that chords and voicings.

[@RobinJWheeler]

Do you have any thoughts that you link to why you would modulate a certain direction? Up or down a fifth or to the relative is like "I want to go somewhere and this is a obvious choice" but I know that's a terrible way to think.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

Generally: Several 18th century treatises describe either explicitly or imlplicitly a common familiarity of diatonic key relations in which a piece most commonly unfolds. Let's take C major as key center - there is the upper fifth (modern: dominant region) and its relative minor (ergo: G Major and E Minor) and the lower fifth (modern: subdominant region, F Major and D Minor) and of course the relative minor. So there is always 5 other keys surrounding the key center of a major or minor key. In this little family you have preferred members which I commonly refer to as "primary modulations", in the major key this is the dominant, in minor you have 2 possible primary modulations - the dominant OR the relative major. Those modulations are considered as mandatory, so EVERY piece would modulate at least to those keys and usually that's the first modulation a composer would aim at and in 18th century music you will definetely see CADENCES that confirm those keys. All other modulations are optional and secondary, those can either be confirmed by a cadence (H.C. Koch "förmliche Ausweichung") or just being tonizised without cadence ("durchgehende Ausweichung"). Modulations/Cadences that go beyond this realm of key relations are considered by contemporary theorists as extraordinary. BUT, at latest from the 1750's on you can witness an opening towards a broader concept of modulation and modulation as compositional parameter becomes an artform that more and more becomes subject of a composer's creativity, before this time it mostly was a standard procedure that was not much of a big event (there is of course countless exceptions) - D. Scarlatti is one of the earliest composers that seems to strive systematically into the field of wider key relations and of more individual and excentric modulations. One can definetely witness an opening towards a procedure that I think in english is referred to as modal interchange: in a G major piece he would e.g. not modulate to C major (the IV) but choses C MINOR instead - which in terms of the circle of 5ths is 4 5ths away from the initial key center. He already seems to do this systematically and one could downright draw a rule from that: all possible major key targets can as well be approached in their minor variants - and this procedure becomes a somewhat standard procedure in the Vienniese classical era. The later generation, guys like Beethoven and Schubert already head towards an expansion of this already expanded realm of diatonic keys espcially by targeting towards non diatonic third relations, e.g. the first mvt. of the "Waldsteinsonata" esteblishes its "2nd theme" not in the expected dominant key (which would be G major) but comes up with E major instead (which is 4 sharps away from the initial C major). In the 19th century these procedures become a standard ALTHOUGH you still can see the 18th century norms in almost every piece - of course depending on a composer's individual preferences - Chopin e.g. is a very good example for being very conservative in this matter as he still would modualate to the aforementioned "primary modulations" befor he would endeavor to more foreign or even exotic key ares (what he definetely does)... same goes for e.g. Scriabin, a major piece will modulate to the V no matter what (there are of course exceptions, e.g. the legendary Op. 39, 1 which shows and experimental key foundation Db / C)... Lol I could go on, surely the longest reply I've ever given :DDDDD I wrote my master thesis in music theory about the topic of modulation / key relations in the 18th century, taking Scarlatti as showcase. That's why...

[@RobinJWheeler]

@@en-blanc-et-noir That is a very very beautiful answer, thank you!

[@nasirferguson4917]

at 4:15 I had to pause the video and play the ab major chord lol to resolve it

[@molaso]

Adiós Nonino!

[@thetrembleclef4223]

Rachmaninoff uses these chords progression a lot actually

[@juanmanueltellechea4981]

I've just discovered a beautiful Schumann piece 😍. Although there's a thing I don't understand. Why are you calling Eb minor first inversion 6th degree of Bb minor? Isn't it just a 4th degree on his first inversion? Btw thx for your very nerdy interesting material

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

circled numbers indicate absolute bass degrees, no roman numerals! It is a different kind of annotation, you‘ll see it all over my channel, so: 6th chord on descending 6th degree. When doing this longer you‘ll recognize that it makes a lot more sense to localize chords on the typical scale degrees on which they usually occur. That is not my own system but it is a common way of annotation in historically informed music theory. hopefully this clarifies😝

[@juanmanueltellechea4981]

​​@@en-blanc-et-noir👍 that makes sense! There's one more thing would like to ask you. At the end you said you modulate: I --> II (which there's no doubt) II --> V (I don't see this 5th degree) You start playing in A (I) you move to Bm (II) then you're on D (new I) and you move to Em (new II). Are you meaning you move a V down? For me it looks: I (A) --> II (Bm) II (Bm) --> IV (D) (becomes new I, etc.) I (D) --> II (Em) II (Em) --> IV (G) Etc... Just one more dude to sleep happily 😅 Thanks 🙏

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

you're right lol, it's a lapse. I constantly modulate fifths DOWN like that. I made an annotated video on this improv, there it is more clear: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qqOnd3Sce5WKrs0

[@playbach3243]

11:56 >>> Reverie n21 Op. 39 Tchaikovsky

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

There you have it! Good example btw

[@playbach3243]

@@en-blanc-et-noir Since we are in the realm of the aug 6 chords, any chance to see some triton subtitution and Bartok's pitch axis used in the romantic era?

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

@@playbach3243 Mr. I'm sorry, I haven't been notified...sorry for late reply. I dunno about Bartok's pitch axis but I imagine it as an idea towards a symmetrical grouping of the chromatic total (e.g. through whole tone scales or diminshed seventh chords) - if so, well yes, chromatic sequences bring in a symmetrical aspect in, e.g. as circles of major or minor thirds, or the mentioned whole tone grouping concerning the motion of the sequential modules. I would not call it tritone substitution but I know what you mean - so yes: there is definetely a lot of examples of something that somebody with a jazz background would label as that. Chopin, Schumann, Liszt are the usual suspects and Scriabin probably can be named as king of this game. That's my opinion :DD but you were asking for it...

[@playbach3243]

@@en-blanc-et-noir Thanks for the reply, i got exactly what i asked for! :D

[@aidansuskic8736]

What score is used in the video? I am looking for carnival with fingering notated.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

dunno, found it on ismlp

[@656520]

Interesting analysis, I still dont like Schumann so much. Notice how in his piece he uses wrong the resource: instead of establishing the key, and then use the harmonic device to develop the piece, like Chopin did, he starts the piece with the thing in itself, and if you compare the result is not as satisfying because as he never stablished the key properly, when he "returns" to the tonic it doesnt feel as full.

[@en-blanc-et-noir]

haha, I think there is just very few people that like Schumann right away, he's just too twisted and not as catchy as e.g. Mendelssohn. To me, he's one of the greatest... I totally see your point but I wouldn't come to the same conclusions: "uses wrong the resource", "not satisfying"... although this is definetely a device to develope a piece I find the idea to drop right in with that thing very imaginative, especially because he's giving the whole phrase a super clear shape as he designs it as a sequence which makes that first bars very plausible (melodically). I wouldn't hypostasize rules as "you gotta establish a key to make legitimate modulations" - As you said: when he returns to the tonic it doesn't feel as full - and that's what's probably intended: openness. I can't see any flaw in that... it just sounds f**ing amazing :DD Cheers

[@wilonweb]

pourquoi utiliser un nom de chaine en francais ?

[@WEEBLLOM]

Cause it sounds cool

[@juanmanueltellechea4981]

Pourquoi pas ?