Shooting the 1874 Sharps Comparing Three Powders

This the second video shooting an 1874 Sharps with antique American Powder Mills black powder. This time we compare the performance of 1 1/2 Fg Swiss Powder, 1 Fg Old Eynsford, and 1Fg American Powder Mills. All three charges are 86 grains and the bullet is 675 grains.

[@denisdegamon8224]

I have one Spegetti (Italian) sharps 4570 and two Shiloh Sharps 1874 in 4570 caliber. One is a Hartford 30" heavy barrel and a 34" Montana Rough Rider. Both shoot lights out 1.5" groups or smaller at 100 yards. I have shot these rifles out to 300 yards at steel rams and pigs with consistant hits. Been using 520 grain Government bullets and 535 Postell bullets cast 1/20 tin to lead alloy. I even have a custom made Steve Brooks 500 grain paper patched bullets and made consistant hits on steel targets at 200 yards. That bullet is for hunting with a .25" mepflat nose, cast 30/1 lead and tin alloy. I have vernier tang sites with a Hadley eye cup on both.

[@stevenbaker9327]

Always wanted a Sharps.....beautiful rifle! .

[@JWheeler331]

Good luck on the mule deer. Looking like some good loads there.

[@davepartlow6430]

Nice comparison. Nice shooting. I love that you add the bloopers at the end. Good show.

[@birdsoup777]

Thank you for your time and post.

[@tomfleck5812]

Just getting into BP reloading. Your videos are very helpful.

[@benjaminjarrett9816]

I love the sharps, I have an 1859 percussion cavalry carbine in .54 caliber. Thanks for the comparison videos.

[@kentowens2179]

Good shooting with iron sights! Nice video.

[@Everythingblackpowder]

Great video!

[@stradostrado]

Great video.

[@garyfurr1467]

I'd like to order a ,45/70 sharps

[@johnolsen7073]

True my 50x90 has a bit of recoil. I was on the range one day and these big policemen did not want to try it.

[@tomslongguns443]

Do some more videos on the Sharp's rifle

[@scottc977]

By the way, love your vids

[@tonydeaton2890]

Young man you are a helluva shot with that old side-hammer. I had a heck of a time getting a Pedersoli/ Sharps replica, in 45-90, to group. I tried all my tricks. Couldn't get it to go under 8 MOA. Finally started loading the slowest 350gr bullets I could safely load and she tightened up nicely.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Tony. It's amazing what these rifles can do. But they're frustrating until you discover the right combination of powder and bullet. Glad you're still at it.

[@tonydeaton2890]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 Yessir,still at it. Killed the biggest white tail of my life with that same loading out of an original '86 Winchester. Bullet performance on game with those old cartridges is something to behold.

[@sasquatch885]

Good information Dr. I’m new to these rifles. I’ve got the same model from C Sharps in 45-70. I thought it kicked like a Missouri mule with a 500gr. bullet!

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Yeah, they do. I bet it's even worse on the other end. The good thing about black powder is its a shove instead of a slap. Seems more tolerable to me anyway. Todd

[@wjgrind]

What I noticed, is the two last shots had the same FPS but the first of the string was pushing over 1,200. Could that difference have opened up the group? I have old powder as well, only it is in antique flasks I got form an estate of a collector that didn't shoot.

[@alvintarrer6914]

Im to old for that caliber, stick to 45-70...wow what kick,i felt that down to Texas 😂

[@asherdog9248]

I am 70, on blood thinners and the 50-90 is still my favorite especially with the 700 grain Higginbotham round nose bullet. You just need a good shoulder pad or an extra stout 34" bull barrel. Don't use all of that APM powder. That was a real find.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

I should have a shoulder pad. That would help. I'm usually wearing a coat in hunting situations. Glad to hear you're enjoying your big bore.

[@thetraveler5798]

The old timers knew a thing or 2 ! 😊👌

[@michaelshanahan4042]

Yes they did never underestimate a old timer especially one with a riffle in his hand

[@49walker44]

Have you found original loading used by hunters during the buffalo era? I've read quite a few stories about the hunts, 44-77, 50-70 gov, 50-90, 50-100 mentioned bought by the 1000rd case plus more lead and powder to reload in unimaginable amounts. Do you have access to the reloading kits? Love to see you make yer load round the fire and see what kind of groups you get. Thanks for your work, those 50s are addicting. Hope you watch leverguns 50 channel.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Capt., sorry I missed your post. I don't have the original loading tools but always looking. I'll do some original load research and let you know. I don't believe they used as heavy of a bullet. The black powder steel silhouette game is the cause of the 700 grainers. Need the momentum to knock stuff down at long distances. If I use a lighter bullet, it just leads up the barrel and the accuracy is out the window. Thanks for watching. Todd

[@mikes622]

Good stuff ! Love them old rifles ! What did you say you were shooting 50-90 was it ???

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Yes, a 50-90 Sharps. Sometimes called a 50-2 1/2 for the length of the case. Thanks for watching.

[@357bullfrog9]

Soon as I can find powder I'm going to try to work up a good load for my pedersoli 74 sharps 45-70. You think it'll be back before winter ?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

I don't know, but I sure hope so.

[@drcoolit]

This Shiloh Sharps -- is this made ONLY for black powder or can smokeless be used as well? If you CAN use smokeless, do you ever choose to do so, and if so, any comments relative to the use of black powder?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

The caliber of my rifle, 50-90, is not as easily convertible to smokeless powder as a more common caliber like 45-70. I've heard of a few smokeless loads, but haven't felt comfortable going there. In a lesser caliber, the rifle can handle smokeless with no concerns whatsoever.

[@scottc977]

Hi Todd. This posting is particularly interesting. I received a Shiloh Sharps 1874 Express rifle in 45/90 2 1/2 years ago. I found my best load to be a Postell 535 gr with .120 wads and 74 gr. Swiss 1.5. This has put the fpm at around 1320. I've gotten decent ( 2") groups at 100. I'm interested in your comments on an overly fast velocity skipping over the rifling. I am using 20:1 alloy cast, and would like to know if you have ever increased the tin to help that, or has your adjustment of velocity been best for you?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Scott, A harder bullet would most likely help. The downside would be penetration vs knock down. It wouldn't matter on targets, but does when hunting - which is what I do. I like the bullet to deform somewhat while passing through a large animal. It's a good question, however, because the wound starts at 1/2 inch and it's hard to say how much expansion is needed beyond that. But I found a bullet I liked and tailored the powder charge to it. I can now see new tests to do. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@artcroft3609]

Great experiment with that old powder. How far from the target were you? (Just reloaded some 45-90 with Swiss 1 1/2 yesterday.)

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Art, I was set up at 50 yards, so no great distance. The way things grouped, I could have backed up and done okay. I just know what kind of accuracy to expect at the time. Todd

[@justinsmith8334]

Noticed you are using some kind of aperture on your glasses. What brand is it and do you like it, I am looking for the same thing.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

It's a video product called AimCam. It's a great idea, but the battery doesn't last long and the connection to the cell phone controls goes offline frequently. So the jury is still out. Sometimes I don't feel like bothering with it. It becomes a burden to use. However, when it's working I do get video from a shooter's perspective.

[@murphy4yt]

I really enjoy your videos, but I gotta say, even with a 14 pound rifle, thatload had to be. brutal from the bench. Thanks for posting.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Murphy, You know when it goes off! Todd

[@missingthe80s58]

Going on writing of various shooters of the late 19th century and specifically the writing of John Rigby and Capt FM Smith of Waltham Abby, I've found something interesting. I cannot link the sites due to ongoing censorship so I'll quote what Mr Rigby said that is relevant to this case. His letter, written in response to a question posed to him in the Volunteer Service Gazette Saturday 3, 1877. Saturday 17, 1877 response. "The barrel is chambered to fit closely a drawn brass case, which holds, when filled quite up, about 95 grains of powder. The charge for the Remington is, however, but 90 grains, and the latest Sharp cartridge will hardly hold more even when shaken down: 90 grains of American powder is equal in strength to about 75 grains of Curtis and Harvey’s No. 5 or 6. It is slow burning, depositing a good deal of fouling, and is most nearly approached in English powders by some of the cheaper brands, sometimes called Volunteer powder, and such-like. The correct performance of the American breech-loader seems to depend a great deal on the use of this particular kind of powder. Curtis and Harvey’s No. 6 does not give good shooting, upsetting the bullet too much and leading the barrel. We now come to the distinctive feature which forms the strength and weakness of the American system. It was originated by the Remington Company, and adopted lately by all others. No provision is made for effects of fouling; no wad or lubricant to obviate such effects is used. The cartridge-case is filled up with powder, room only being left to insert the base of bullet for about one-tenth of an inch. The cartridge so loaded cannot be carried in packages or ordinary pouches; each must be supported in its compartment so that the bullet cannot become displaced, and must be most carefully handled in conveying it into the chamber, otherwise the bullet will fall out and the powder escape. This system presupposes the perfect cleanliness of the barrel. If the least particle of fouling were left adherent in front of the chamber, the bullet would not enter; and if forced, the paper envelope would be torn." Mr Rigby's response is only one of the clues. The rest lay with other's writings and observations as stated previously. In case you're curious about the British system I'll tell you what I know. The British powders were not graphite coated. The modern theory of this is entirely wrong. It had nothing to do with flow characteristics, moisture resistance and certainly nothing to do with spark or static resistance. Rather had only to do with ignition characteristics. Graphite coating substantially slows ignition which in turn reduces effect of upset on the projectile. The British were willing to use harder lead in exchange for powder that burns more thoroughly prior to the projectile leaving the chamber area or entering the throat of their muzzle loaders and breech loaders respectively. Further, the American system relied on as Rigby stated, wiping between shots. The British system however relied upon minimal but quite soft fouling produced by the moisture production of the hydrocarbons they preserved in the charcoal. This being deliberately done with much lower charring temperature and for longer char times. They were effectively offsetting carbon and mineral content weight or percentages with the preservation of said hydrocarbons. I know Mr Rigby makes no mention of this characteristic but FM Smith and other certainly do. Adding further to cost was the use of a greased felt wad column. As Mr Rigby states, no provision for their use is made in the American system. This was quite normal for those on the other side of the pond and considered abnormal by us and still is to this day. I do find it interesting that some shooters on the other side of the pond use Rigby or Rigby clones and do load their rifles according to the traditions there yet are unknowing using a firmly American style of powder as produced by Swiss. I often wonder how well or much better their shooting would be if Swiss also made a C&H or British style of powder. Same for American breech loaders, how would American rifles perform with British style powder and harder lead? Would American rifles perform in a superior manner? Would Americans adopt the British powder? Some evidence suggests British sporting powder was much desired and preferred by soldiers on both sides during the Civil War though it seems no one mentions why. I formerly believed Swiss was closer to British style powder but the characteristics do not match those of British powders otherwise we would be using much harder lead and much smaller charges. I believe you might agree with this assessment. Your tests it would appear, confirm the US system has survived intact for 145 years.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thank you for this very interesting information. I wonder if Rigby is commenting on competition loading procedures? He makes no mention of a grease cookie under a paper patched bullet or grease grooves in other bullet designs. "No provision is made for effects of fouling; no wad or lubricant to obviate such effects is used." That's not true for most period sporting ammunition. I don't doubt his authority. I just wonder under what context he is speaking. I do wish, however, that I could obtain old English powder and give it a try while using their historic system and a harder bullet. As they might say, "What Cheer!". Thanks again, Todd

[@kentwilliams3326]

Wouldn't the aperture sight be a better sight for group testing?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

I flip the aperture sight up for 200 yards for my standard loads. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@dogbone1358]

Were you shooting at 50 or 100 yds? Do you have a video showing your BP cleaning routine? Do you lube your own bullets? I have a Uberti 1885 High Wall in 45-70 and a Pedersoli Remington Rolling Block also in 45-70 and would like to try black powder. Can’t believe you don’t use a butt pad or shoulder pad with that caliber and load. I can’t shoot my rifles without a shoulder pad. Enjoyed your videos on the 1880s powder. Enjoy your style of presentation also.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thank you sir. I was shooting at 50 yards for the trials. I kept the distance close in case my groups got wild. I could have backed up as it turns out. I do lube some of my bullets. The ones in this video came prelubed with SPG. I have not done a cleaning video but would be happy to. Thanks for watching.

[@dogbone1358]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 What is SPG? Do you use specialy lubed bullets for use with black powder or any lubed bullets in the size/weight you need?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

@@dogbone1358 SPG is a common black powder bullet lube made by Steve Garbe, editor of the Black Powder Cartridge News. It's good stuff, but I also like Vigilante Bullet Lube and do my own bullets with that. You do want a lube made for black powder and a lead cast bullet also appropriate for the caliber. Watch the black powder cartridge reloading video and pick up the books I recommend. It's best that you do some reading where every detail is described.

[@flacavaca]

Which primers did you use with Swiss 1 1/2? Thanks

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

I used Federal Large Rifle Magnum primers. It's a fairly large powder charge and magnum primers seem to get a more thorough burn. I followed the recommendations of competitive 50-90 shooters. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@brianlee6849]

Hello Todd were you in Alaska in the early 90s? Thanks 👍

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

No sir. But would enjoy that trip someday.

[@brianlee6849]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 You remind me of a guy that I knew up there I was up there from 89 to 96. He would be about your age and he was from Montana but I can't remember exactly where. Thanks I always enjoy your videos 👍

[@dogbone1358]

86 grains in a 45-70 case? That’s an amazing amount of compression. Do you use a compression die or just a seating die? I never heard of a bullet that heavy. Must have a lot of energy but what kind of distance can you get out of a bullet that large? What did you say the twist rate was for that rifle?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Dogbone, This Sharps is chambered in 50-90. So 86 grains is no problem - although I do use a compression die so I don't even slightly deform the bullet. The twist rate is 1-22 to stabilize the 675 grain bullet and the whole rig was built to knock down silhouettes out to 600 yards or more. It catered to the silhouette competition folks. For historical purposes, I would have preferred a longer twist rate to accommodate a bullet in the 500 grain area more like the originals. But I still love the thing. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@dogbone1358]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 Somehow I missed the caliber. I assumed it was 45-70. Hence the the questioning of the powder charge. Now it all makes sense.

[@deandeann1541]

If recoil is hard on your shoulder, and it is worse with the heavier bullet (but you use the heavier bullet to slow down fps), why don't you use the lighter bullet with a reduced powder charge?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Dean, The rifle is designed to stabilize heavy bullets. The rifling is one full rotation in 22 inches. I've tried lighter bullets and they don't group well - even at low velocity. Plus, I lose a lot of energy when shooting light, slow bullets. I just need to live with it and quick whining. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@michaelredman5750]

What is the twist in your barrel?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Michael, the twist rate is 1 in 22 inches. I have a 34 inch barrel on mine. It's tight in order to stabilize a heavy bullet. But so tight that I have to slow it down. Thanks for watching.

[@devmeistersuperprecision4155]

What were the speeds and speed metrics?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

I didn't chronograph these. I was strictly looking at accuracy. It would be interesting to know the velocity, however. Maybe next time. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@brianlee6849]

I'm thinking the 45-90 is a great overall compromise that's what I'm thinking about getting in a 74 or maybe a Winchester 1885. Good video 👍

[@brianlee6849]

@@missingthe80s58 Interesting. Great info. Thanks 👍

[@morriswirth9764]

Pop go's the 🦗 hell yeah 👍📸🍻😁

[@j.muckafignotti4226]

You keep thinking big Hoss, I just has might right shoulder replaced, 50 years years worth of bigger is better! YEEEHAW!

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks J. I'm not giving up yet. But would like to avoid a shoulder replacement. Thanks for watching.

[@wilmamcdermott3065]

I bet your 50 90 dont recoil like my 4590 with smokless

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Probably not. Keep throwing the big stuff.