Fusion360: Here's what's ACTUALLY changing

[@MadeWithLayers]

THIS JUST IN: The free Fusion360 Personal license will NOT lose .step export on October 1st 2020!

[@oliverglauner2364]

Because Autodesk just realized, that 99% of their free users are exporting and deleting their files and deinstalling fusion for the last few days ;-)

[@TheStuartstardust]

So can we have a poll on best alternative? Solve space, FreeCAD, DesignSpark Mechanical or OpenSCAD or? I like the Fusion CAM integration - but what options is there?

[@aomanchutube]

@@TheStuartstardust FreeCAD is the oldest and more versatile. It is a full CAD system, but it has FEA, slicer, BIM for structural, 2D like AutoCAD, etc etc etc, the sky is the limit.

[@skyak4493]

Wow! That is big. You did a fine job explaining the new borderline in the freemium model. My opinion is this is completely expected and the only problem is what do we expect for the future? Having STEP transfer/personal archive is what I need to commit my time to Fusion 360. I still feel like there should be a difference between someone who designs something and makes $100k of that product and someone working as a designer/consultant for a third party. I feel like the little MFG guy owes only a month and the latter should pay any time he is contracted for a significant portion of a month. I think ACAD should have their own designer marketplace -fees would generate very naturally.

[@skyak4493]

@@TheStuartstardust FreeCAD has the right idea and I would like to see it get more dev.s -but was buggy. OpenSCAD has it's uses but with essentially no UX it is only for programmers.

[@mrclown7469]

The root of the problem is that Autodesk don't offer a paid plan aimed at makers/hobbyists. All paid plans are aimed at business users, and are priced accordingly. The only option for makers/hobbyists is a limited free version, or a $500 a year full version. Why don't Autodesk offer a simple (most people will never use features like topology optimization other than to "play" with them) but powerful (ie not a toy like TinkerCAD) CAD program for

[@Mr_Pewpy_But-Whole]

right otherwise a competitor will rise or maybe an undead patch or some sort

[@ringding1000]

The issue for Autodesk is that some customers aren't worth what it costs to keep them. And makers/hobbyists are those type of customer. More changes will be coming. And they will limit the hobbyist even more.

[@michaelalbanese4466]

@@ringding1000 Get rid of cloud saves for free customers and their cost is negligible

[@ringding1000]

@@michaelalbanese4466 But it still a cost that adds up. Plus the cost of support. AutoDesk ain't a charity.

[@ryanrose8856]

@@ringding1000 support? There shouldn't be any support.. it can be a community based support model. Hobbyists don't need, or at least shouldn't be expecting SLA in terms of support.

[@senseijamie]

Thomas -- Calling the people who have issues with these changed "entitled" is both inaccurate and harsh. I own a software business that employs more than a dozen people. I understand the industry and the need to make a profit. The annual cost for a F360 subscription is also insignificant for me. Yet I am am extremely vocal in my discontent over these changes. The only thing I care about is the nerfing of the STEP exports. Why? Because I detest software companies' attempts to lock people into their ecosystem. Autodesk is taking things away to get people to pay, rather than adding things to entice them. Stick vs carrot. And this is going to have a significant, chilling effect on the maker community. Now we can expect even fewer people to share their source files on Thingiverse, et al. In short, these changes are going to make it more difficult for the maker community to collaborate and share. Autodesk is going to be Autodesk. But I was really hoping more from KZbinrs like you. Your viewers and patrons pay your bills. The maker community has enabled you to have the lifestyle that you have. It would have been nice to see you take a stance against Autodesk's tactics and advocate for this community.

[@kongchho]

But it seems like the makers that watch him can still make the same things with the new policies. If you're doing something advanced you should pay for a month of the software and finish your big project. No need to drop hundreds. Heck I bet the majority of his viewers don't even know how to use tinker cad.

[@psyberklown3434]

Yeah I've been unsubbing from the apologists.

[@FlashBIOS]

senseijamie I completely agreed with you. Rarely have heard a more offensive statement from the KZbinrs I follow and trust as I have in that statement in this video. Thomas, that statement of yours stinks of a great many things. I am a hobbyist. I make no money and believe in open sourcing all my designs - that means sharing my design in a format which allows the full editing of my design by others to the same degree I myself have in my design. This change does not save Autodesk any money that that they would have been otherwise been spending on their free users and does not align, at all, with the business case arguments Autodesk has presented. It exists, now, for only one reason, and apparently it takes us “entitled” users to identity it.

[@senseijamie]

@@kongchho I've downloaded and reused STEP files from countless students and people located in economically depressed regions throughout the world. $25-60/mo is a LOT to these makers who are actively contributing back to the community. I'm not complaining about having to pay money myself. My major concern is that many of these makers are no long going to be able to contribute. The 3D printer community wouldn't exist without the RepRap project and supporting open source software like Marlin, Cura, OctoPrint, etc. Autodesk is being carried by this same rising tide. They've benefited and are using the "embrace, extend, extinguish" strategy that Microsoft perfected in the early days of the web.

[@AdamsLab]

Y'all realize that you can still export in .f3d? So the "can't contribute" argument is sort of moot. Sure, you have to use Fusion 360 but a) it's still free and b) it's still free.

[@Brainwash110]

That they remove advanced features like generative design or simulation on a free version makes sense to me. Removing rapid feed for CAM or removing the possibility for a 4th-axis is annoying, since even a cheap 3020 cnc often comes with a 4th axis, but I can still understand why they do that. But the fact that you can not export .step files anymore is a no-go for me.

[@kylek29]

The goal of these changes seems to be with the intent to slow the personal users down and lock them into the platform.

[@deeeeeds]

The lack of STEP really hamstrings our ability as hobbyists to interact with the design community at large. It kills all collaboration with people using other CAD software since unless they can open an .f3d, we're unable to send them actual geometric data and can only ship STLs which are horrible to work around.

[@benk7032]

I agree with you; removing features from the free version where Autodesk where incurring a running cost on their "cloud" (topology optimisation etc) I completely understand. And I understand removing tool-changing and the 4th-axis support (these features are cheaper than they've ever been before but still not what I'd call cheap), so I think asking for a paid license isn't unreasonable. Removing rapids is annoying as it's useful for the smallest to the largest CNC machines. Removing .step export is very clearly trying to lock everyone in and stinks. Additionally the short-notice removal from the app, leaving users dependant on a website feature that's harder to find, slow and cumbersome to use is clearly designed to create friction with the intent of reducing the number of users lost due to the license change.

[@upanie1]

@@therealjones-o6x Yeah, it has had a great future for many, many years :P

[@simon-qy2xe]

I used the Simulation a lot to controll the strengh of steel designs before making them, but i can still use my 600 pages book with lots of components and information to calculate everithing, its just so much work. But the problem with 4 and 5 Axis cnc is, that companies could use the free version. There are lots of companies who produce are just CNC shops that take youre digital modell and produce it with their cnc

[@Jonzynator]

I would gladly pay for let’s say a “maker subscription”. Something that’s not free but is affordable for a garage hobbyists.

[@MadeWithLayers]

Unfortunately it doesn't sound like Autodesk are likely going to be offering a "Poweruser" license like this.

[@Jonzynator]

Thomas Sanladerer Im just glad they are offering a free version.

[@jothain]

@@Jonzynator but that's something that's likely going away within few years.

[@Jonzynator]

jothain most likely. But I’m hoping in a couple years I can save up to purchase solid works

[@upanie1]

@@Jonzynator That's amazing. You're going to use free version of paid software to save money and buy a competitive software! And waaaay more expensive. I don't even know how to name such "activity".

[@liamtwentyman7275]

I said this in response to Maker's Muse's video to these changes, and I will say it here again: My biggest issue with their changes are the speed at which this has happened, and the price. I personally feel they are trying to get people to panic buy into their subscription model, with the lure of the 40% discount etc, under the pressure of the cutoff date. If they had given us say, 6 months warning, and a more resonably priced hobbyists subscription, I would have actively considered staying with them. However, a few hundred dollars a year for CAD software I might use once a week? That is just not personally justifiable. Maybe 40 - 50 USD a year, without CAM, I would have been happy paying.

[@HeimoVN]

I agree a license geared towards hobby use and priced accordingly may be a better option then feature cutting or making the software more annoying to use..

[@shadow7037932]

The price is crazy. Adobe offers Lightroom/Photoshop for $10/mo. $25/mo (annual sub AND with current discount) for just Fusion is overpriced. Autodesk needs to offer a affordable, fully unlocked "Maker" license or people will just switch to something else or just pirate it lol.

[@elvinhaak]

@@shadow7037932 There is a full free licence possible for startup and also students. And then te price for Photoshop is crazy high in my opinion, especially for what I can do with it compared to what fusion offers in possibilities. But it all depends on what your needs are in making / desighning. $279 / year for a payed full version is still 23.25 A month and that is less then Photoshop's 25$ ! By the way that is a small amount compared to what you need for hardware-costs like a 3d printer or CNC or lasercutter and the materials you use like filament, tools, steel and other materials. AND especially if you don't make money with it is is free, for Adobe you will always pay even if you only open a picture twice a year for personal use. This is one of the biggest reasons why I didn't go for Photoshop but use GIMP for my photo-work.

[@calebland6246]

Isogen fusion is a more niche product than Lightroom or photoshop. I think the price is really cheap, but I remember the time where you would spend hundreds of dollars for a compiler back in the 90s

[@MadScienceWorkshoppe]

​@@calebland6246 @isogen Photoshop is also a far more mature product, I've been using it for over 20 years. If you look, adobe offers Photoshop alone for $31/mo or $240/yr, which is more expensive than the LR/PS combo, which is something you may want to keep your eye on. The full Adobe CC sub is $80/mo or $600/yr.

[@guidomersmann9744]

I am still thankful for learning FreeCAD. To me the step export removal sounds like keeping the sheep´s inside while they slowly lower the gates of a pay wall to lock them in.

[@shadow7037932]

Too bad FreeCAD feel and behaves like an early 2000s CAD program... I wish SolidWorks had a affordable Maker/personal use license.

[@RunesLegacy]

@@shadow7037932 it does if you have an eaa membership.

[@Pulsar2000]

@@shadow7037932 Who cares if it feels like 2000s software. FreeCAD ist pretty powerfull if you know what you are doing. No functionality restrictions and cloud storage bullcrap. I guarantee, Fusion360 will be even more restricted in a few years.

[@umbratherios5614]

@@Pulsar2000 every single cloud service WILL show greed. people supporting those cloud-only and proprietary-cloud bs are screwing over hobbyists.

[@EL8UFfaL0]

Why do you not give Solid Edge from Siemens a try? It is comparable to Solidworks or Inventor. It is free for hobbyists with a license that won't expire in the future.

[@gamerpaddy]

id rather buy software and never receive updates, keeping what you have and learned but miss on new things than paying for a subscription and receiving updates, potentially changing things you dont want to change.

[@shadow7037932]

That *was* the norm about a decade or two ago. Autodesk sold perpetual licenses. But that was not good business for them because they didn't add new features that incentivized people to upgrade. So they forced the SaaS model.

[@hlavaatch]

@@shadow7037932 The fatal problem with SaaS is it removes any motivation to do a good job from developers. No need to make it work and not buggy, there is no major versions, customers are locked in and have to pay whether you do a good job or not and have no control over what for... they can not vote with their wallet. This is extremely unhealthy for software development

[@VincentGroenewold]

That’s a good solution indeed. My employer offers software both as a subscription or one time by. 50 euro’s a year or 150 once. That one time will be yours forever, apart from big updates that might need a bit of extra. But you keep your working version as long as you want. Cloud only I’ll never do, like that CNC online only thing that’s popular with some channels. Brrrr No way.

[@timlong7289]

That's why people find it hard to trust cloud services. It takes away all of your control while making you pay over and over again for the privilege.

[@matneu27]

The most important reason to leave f360 asap is that they cut the export in portable file formats. Step for example. Later you are caught in a trap, if you not willing to pay for it. That hurts the most if you made hundreds of models and they are caged in f360. Time will tell what they cut next, sure this downgrade (sold as Update) was not the last.

[@lizardman923]

Yeah, that's the worst of the changes, and honestly the only deal breaking one. So long and thanks for all the fish.

[@AthanCondax]

Is it possible to create an extension that allows for these exports?

[@vlaktorbb]

@@AthanCondax No becuase extensions are disabled from now on. And thats a bummer becuase it will make the use on my Macbook Pro impossible. The mouse support without the trackpad extension is unworkable. Really bummed about this.

[@AthanCondax]

@@vlaktorbb Wait....there's been a useful MacBook Pro trackpad extension this entire time? Are you kidding me? Now? Now I find out??!!?!?!?

[@MadeWithLayers]

@@vlaktorbb the way I understand it is that plugins will continue to be available on the Personal license - e.g. the svg export for the Shaper Origin will remain usable on every license. I don't think Autodesk would allow a simple step export plugin, but something like a trackpad enhancer should still be possible. I think.

[@petergoose8164]

I looked at FreeCAD some years ago and found it daunting because I was relatively new to 3D modelling. I have learned a lot using the free F360 and drawing on the large community around it as well as making a small contribution. I have often felt like an unpaid beta tester. FreeCAD continues to improve and now I feel totally safe moving to it and joining the large and growing community it has spawned. We are all free agents. Some of the vitriol heaped on Autocad is a bit over the top though I may disagree with some of their actions.

[@MD_Builds]

Ive got 20+ years experience with 3D modeling.... And I dont like freecad at all.... Dont worry its a nasty program to use. They really need to up there game if they want to make something attractive.

[@kongchho]

The only people who are angry are those that want a full featured CAD package without spending any money. They were never going to pay. Beginners aren't complaining, people who pay for software aren't complaining, it's just a very vocal small group of people who want to keep mooching.

[@jothain]

@@MD_Builds imo it's actually really good feature wise. But I fully agree that it's really clunky to use. This is something that seems to be trend on many opensource software. Just like Libreoffice. It also has majority of features most office users need, but it also has really off putting UI in my opinion. Though I can't blame that on FreeCAD case as there's only couple of developers and I can't blame that they have other interests than UI. Hopefully they get good coders that would target usability side of it. I can do basic stuff with it, but Fusion is just so much nicer to use. With FreeCAD that parametric side is absolute 100% required to achieve what you're aiming for.

[@avantux]

I love freecad. After AutoCAD it's perfect

[@auxchar]

I mentioned this in another comment, but I'll copypasta here. Last I tried, FreeCAD was still a bit of a clusterfuck. I do really like OpenSCAD for 3D printing stuff, though it doesn't cover the full spectrum of use cases for a proper CAD program, and you do have to learn the programming language to use it (though I really like that aspect of it).

[@JackJack0046]

I’m not worried about these changes. I’m worried about future changes should those come

[@jzbreezio]

Thankfully, i use MS Paint for projects

[@FuriousImp]

What projects? Pong artwork? 🤣

[@Inventorsquare]

Luxury.

[@MrPig-et8pd]

MS Paint is one of the OG's

[@m3chanist]

lol excellent comment, but don't get too comfy, MS could take it all away at a moment's notice! THE SKY IS FALLING!!

[@veers0r]

Might be a good idea for the community to start supporting a free and open source alternative. If not for now, so that they are ready when you do need them. Might be a better strategy than hoping that a companies objectives do not end up at odds with your own goals. :)

[@EL8UFfaL0]

Sound like a good idea, but unfortunately there is no powerful open source alternative available. Don't get me wrong, I used Freecad for small private projects in the past. It works for simple stuff. But it really sucks, compared to any professional mid-range CAD-Solution like SolidWorks, Inventor, Solid Edge or Creo. I switched form f360 to Solid Edge as my hobbyist CAD-tool, because it is free for anyone (not limited to students) and the license will not expire in the future.

[@MadeWithLayers]

Wait, how is Solid Edge free? I'm only finding subscriptions starting at $900 per year.

[@veers0r]

@@EL8UFfaL0 I'm not going to argue that freecad is good or good enough to use. But it might still be worth supporting it even if it isn't there today so it can get there. If one doesn't like being at the mercy of a companies drive to maximize profits then that's certainly a better strategy than complaining on the internets. With that said I don't know enough about the freecad project to endorse it in particular.

[@roomtemp6374]

@@MadeWithLayers "Solid Edge Community Edition"

[@sampsonenator]

@@MadeWithLayers Siemens considers anyone learning the tool a "student" they have openly said that. They don't require any validation of student status like other academic software.

[@PaperHunter]

I'd be happy to pay £5 per month for just the solid design space, STL/3MF export and unlimited files. Now learning FreeCAD in case further restrictions come in. UPDATE: I tried FreeCAD and really like it. Does exactly what I need. Works pretty much exactly the same as Fusion for part design.

[@TuomasKuosmanen]

Exactly. FreeCAD for parametric, and Blender for more freeform modelling. Because you are investing your time to learn a tool to make things, you wish to keep using it for a long time. And when you learn 3D modelling, it is not a small amount of time either.

[@MadeWithLayers]

I mean, that's exactly what the free "Personal" license gives you.

[@markot1962]

Please donate to FreeCAD as well then :)

[@elvinhaak]

So, that is still free! STL is free 3MF is free and keeps working and unlimited? Yes, possible but you can just not keep all of your files open at the same time under one licence. I expect by the way that there will be someone writing a converter from 3MF to for example STEP or make an import possible in FreeCAD.

[@PaperHunter]

@@MadeWithLayers You don't get unlimited files, I suspect the activating and deactivating will become tiresome. You also get no guarantee or right to a guarantee that the software will continue to be free. I'd rather pay a fair price for the bits I need than rely on the continued charity of a company that is under no obligation to be charitable.

[@sevenxsix2566]

I get the idea that all these KZbin guys are drunk on Fusion...they've become comfortable with using it and are not willing to go through the pain of learning a new tool. The thing is, F360 is a dead end unless you are willing to dive into a subscription license ($300 a year is a decently sized hit for us in the US and EU, it would be a massive blow to hobbyist in less affluent regions) . These changes will just keep coming, what happens when they remove .stl exporting? Or what if they limit us to just one open project? They know what they are doing here and the push to the pay plan is on. The longer we stay in Fusion, the more we become entrenched and the harder it will be to leave (and the pay option becomes easier to stomach). Thomas is just rationalizing the whole time in this video..."Oh, the Onshape changes were so much worse...I can live with these Fusion changes, so you should stay too...Oh by the way I talked to the Fusion guys, They nice". We just need to start working with opensource projects, help them get better, so hobbyist have a free option they can count on.

[@VenomKen]

Stop quoting the $300 a year price. It has not been proven to be that beyond this one time 40% off offer.

[@imvisier9925]

@@VenomKen Mate, SOLIDWORKS which is very comparable in terms of features is 3k a year. You'll be lucky if the fusion subscption stays sub 1k for more than 2 years.

[@Mytagforhalo]

​@@imvisier9925 To be fair, autodesk inventor is actually the solidworks competitor. Which is why i found it strange that they originally came out with fusion 360 in the first place. Full fledged inventor is $2k a year, and the "Light" version is $450 a year. Seeing that it was a more than capable parametric CAD program that also offered CAM capabilities among other features for free has always seemed too good to be true for me. Though if the prices continue to increase, i dont know how they would price it within their ecosystem. Because, yes, it's a powerful tool. But at the same time, it is a stripped down version of their other programs mashed together. It isnt as fluid of a workflow as inventor for modeling and assemblies (the cloud based storage is a pain as an example) and it really cant deal with making manufacturing prints as far as i'm aware. As a result, it's current price reflects it's value IMO, and anything more in cost would personally require them to be throwing in other programs at a major discount as a sort of software suite plan to make it worth the extra.. which might be the future.

[@lolcorporation7308]

bruh it aint gonna happen. look at blender, until ubisoft started using it internally, no one was even looking at it, and only after what 20+ years and 2.8 release its slowly becoming semi decent. look at how young is fusion360, and how much features it has, guess what your freecad is gonna need 10+ more years to be remotely comparable in what fusion was last year. the fact that there is even a free version is more than being generous from autodesk, and remember its still free if your a student or startup. if your making money with a software you should pay for it , no exception.

[@SianaGearz]

@@lolcorporation7308 FreeCAD is super powerful, i don't ever find that "man, i wish FreeCAD had more features". But it's also kinda hostile to use from conception - grew organically, not enough user-centric design. It's fundamentally more of a CAD tool construction framework than a CAD tool, thus the dozens of barely compatible workspaces. Blender? It has been an indie mainstay for a decade now. I've been using it for 20 years now and i liked it from day 1, it felt so... direct and liberating to use compared to Max. Now as it grew, it became a lot more hostile, but they ironed it out.

[@theunknowdude3000]

you are payed by autodesk for sure !!!

[@MadeWithLayers]

That is a lie.

[@theunknowdude3000]

@@MadeWithLayers prove it !

[@ajosepi1976]

Revit was once free. I had a free version for a bit. It's now $305 a month, or $2425 a year, or $6550, for 3 years. Fusion 360 is heading that direction. This is standard Autodesk practices. Nothing new.

[@ajosepi1976]

Also, I spoke to an Autodesk rep over Revit when they went to paid. He said no one was abusing the free version, it was just how they do business.

[@NiHaoMike64]

@@WillofNewZealand A house for less than the price of a new car sounds like a good deal. What's the catch?

[@K1dd0]

@@WillofNewZealand that's extremely affordable from the place where I've lived for my whole life. It's 20-30 times more here.

[@K1dd0]

@@WillofNewZealand that's somewhat true. Good thing there are still opensource software these days.

[@soupisgoodfood42]

@@WillofNewZealand Yeah, a house for $10,000 in NZ. Is that just an old house and no property? Is legal to live in it? There's something you're not telling us.

[@twinklingwater]

A few months ago I got into 3D printing. When the subject of CAD came up, I had to decide whether I wanted to figure out hot how to get F360 running on Linux or avoid proprietary software altogether and get into OpenSCAD or FreeCAD. The recent announcements show that it was a good idea to stick to open source, even though FreeCAD may be a little more cumbersome than F360 (OpenSCAD didn't really fit my workflow). I'm not hating on Autodesk for trying to make money with their software. I just don't like to be at the mercy of a company - which you are with every subscription model.

[@beauslim]

FreeCAD is probably the best choice for Linux. Fusion360 was crashing for me under Windows so I tried it under Linux. There were strange graphics/rendering problems where UI elements would just disappear. Not too surprising given that it runs in Windows emulation. I settled on hackintosh, which is oddly much more stable on the same PC hardware.

[@renecortis]

Startet 3D modeling in FreeCAD 1,5 years ago on Mac OSX and I am still very happy with the software. Tried Fusion 360 but FreeCAD feels better to me.

[@raise-project]

Nah I´m done. My startup license is expiring soon anyway and I don´t feel too safe with Fusion360. They can change their prices at any time and they will. Same with windows better leave platforms like these as soon as you can. I´m super thankful though for the 5 years and I guess they also collected quite good data in return. At least for me it´s time to go back to freecad as it really has evolved the last 5 years. It´s difficult but feels kinda nice with a warm and fuzzy feeling :) (After allt the hate and rants that occur while getting used to it for a few days :D)

[@bnjyable]

What's wrong with windows? You only ever have to buy a license once, and the additional cost to buy a mac is way higher than a license.

[@raise-project]

@@bnjyable It works well I have to admit. Mostly stable and everything. Fusion was the last app that was keeping me back from a transition to linux and I wanted to do that for many years now. That event just gave me another motivation to leave. It´s not so much about money but freedom and the feel of security and things.

[@VenomKen]

@@bnjyable This go around. Don't expect the next one to not be a subscription service. The writing is on the wall with Office 365. Damn near impossible to buy a perpetual Office license any longer.

[@VorpalGun]

I'm planning on trying out FreeCAD for my next project. I wouldn't mind most of those limitations, but I don't like the lock in where I can then not get my data out if they limit me even more in the future...

[@auxchar]

Last I tried, FreeCAD was still a bit of a clusterfuck. I do really like OpenSCAD for 3D printing stuff, though it doesn't cover the full spectrum of use cases for a proper CAD program, and you do have to learn the programming language to use it (though I really like that aspect of it).

[@VorpalGun]

@@auxchar while I am a software developer, I'm not keen on CAD by code. Also last I looked the feature set of OpenSCAD was really limitied, missing features such as lofting.

[@auxchar]

@@VorpalGun That's true, it is pretty limited, and they still haven't added lofting. Still, there's quite a bit that can be done with it, and it's the tool I generally prefer to reach for when I'm doing modeling for 3D printing.

[@woodwaker1]

I'm starting the learning process on FreeCad also. What i like is, it runs local on your PC, the files are local and you can continue to use it - even if they upgrade. I don't disagree there are negatives, but I think it is a better solution for me.

[@auxchar]

@@woodwaker1 Oh yeah, definitely.

[@LameCorvette]

I wish they'd offer a paid hobbyist license at an affordable price. This new free version is going to be pretty much unusable for me and is going to lock many of my designs behind a paywall.

[@Sambonator]

Hey Liam, can you articulate how your designs are going to be locked away and why it's unusable? Do you rely on STEP export for an external CAM? By the way, not trying to be argumentative, I'm genuinely looking for examples on how this impacts your typical hobbyist.

[@drakonzebra]

@@Sambonator For me it's the fact that doing complex assemblies with the top-down approach keeps a single huge history timeline. Working with individual parts and using edit-in-place is much more convenient.

[@LameCorvette]

@@Sambonator Sure. It's the ten active document limit that really kills it for me. I have many documents that reference more than 10 other documents. Like my latest project, a 3d printer - it has stepper motors, hotends, timing pulleys, etc. inserted into it. So, I'm guessing I won't be able to work on it now, unless I break the component ties to the original documents. Or maybe I will be able to work on it - Autodesk has been as clear as mud about the document limit. I don't know what's happening but I doubt I'll be able to continue designing things the way I do, it seems it'll be much harder now. Also gonna miss simulations, but I can live without them.

[@Sambonator]

@@LameCorvette My impression was that a bottom up design which references 50 parts isn't an issue but 40 of those 50 parts will need to be archived and not editable. However you are right, it's not clear. By the way, FreeCAD now has FEA built in so you might check that out as a F360 simulation alternative.

[@LameCorvette]

@@Sambonator Thanks for the tip, I'll check out FreeCAD. About the archiving, I'm not sure it's even possible to archive individual parts. I only seem to be able to archive entire projects.

[@AlexusMaximusDE]

I don't think it's entitlement when you are robbed of the ability to loslessly export your intellectual property into an open format if you created said intellectual property under the assumption that it would be possible. And it's not like Autodesk are providing the free version out of the goodness of their hearts, they are doing it to increase their marketshare and public goodwill.

[@BlacksmithGen]

you can still currently export your files in step until the update in October

[@MisterMakerNL]

Also to make people lose interest in free alternatives, so their main cashcow Inventor en Autocad won't be obsolete like 3DSMAX already is for lots of users since Blender replaced it.

[@AlexusMaximusDE]

@@BlacksmithGen I realize that. Doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't have known this in time if it wasn't for this video because I only use Fusion when I need to model something which may be a few months straight or like right now it may be months between uses.

[@rlockwood2]

"Export of STEP will be not be available from the in-product File > Export dialog on Oct. 1, 2020. After Oct. 1, You can still export your designs as STEP file formats via Fusion Team in your browser. This workflow will remain until Jan 19, 2021. To get to your Fusion Team page, open the data panel, go into one of your projects, and click on the “Open on the Web” icon."

[@sebastiendine4834]

Hello, Autocad (edit: Autodesk) did the same thing with the famous EDA software Eagle after its acquisition. Many users were furious and switched to Kicad because of the new limitations and the switch to a subscription-only licensing. I expected the same to happen some day for Fusion360. This is why I started to learn and use extensively Freecad 3 years ago instead of learning Fusion360 (the darling of many makers on youtube). I am so glad now. I am using Freecad for personnal and commercial projects (freelance). I don't regret my choice.

[@jeanlesueur6936]

I thinked exactly like you. I'm also very glad to have done the right choice to learn Freecad.

[@TheMostTruth]

Both Autocad and Fusion are from Autodesk, right? So i mean, kind of figures it would happen.

[@km5405]

well its probably a darling of people because fusion is great. its pretty streamlined compared to some free programs or painfull to use ''pro'' ones like inventor. but the writing was on the wall since its owned by autodesk.

[@sebastiendine4834]

@@km5405 Hello, I agree with you. Fusion360 is a great software and probably better/easier than open source softwares like Freecad (my darling...) on many aspects. But the maker movement is relying a lot on open source softwares (and open hardwares in a lesser extend). This is why I was surprised by the emphasis on Fusion360 (propriatery and closed sofware) by so many makers on youtube. Only recently I have seen them citing more often some alternatives to Fusions360. This is great. Autodesk is again doing a favor to the open source community (cf. Eagle vs Kicad) by restricting the rights of their users. I don't blame that company because they have to make a profit out of their softwares. If you choose a propriatery software you must expect some unwanted changes sooner and later ("writing on the wall" :-) ) This is how it works.

[@avantux]

Freecad is saying Welcome

[@intelligenceservices]

freecad has quite a learning curve and it's scary to make the commitment

[@Nachmed]

Beta-test was done. Time to harvesting coins :)

[@hlavaatch]

Their whole development model is an eternal beta. Who will they be testing it on from now on? Paying customers? Microsoft can do that, it has millions of unwilling test subjects for their windows update lottery... can Autodesk?

[@jothain]

@@hlavaatch of course they can. I showed my boss what I can do with Fusion and he checked out license fee and bought license for me to use. If it would have been more expensive, I'm 💯 sure that he wouldn't have bought that license as I'm mechanic/maintenance guy as priority 1 at work and using cad is like 5% of my working hours. Thing is that Fusion can really be that beta version and Inventor and such can remain as expensive full time designers workhorse.

[@solosailor222]

Microsloth proved that "eternal Beta" is a viable (if diabolical) business plan. It requires a monopoly though, which Autodesk does not yet have. Thanks to the ease of learning Fusion360, it will be easier for many to transition to FreedCAD (for example) and build projects with peace of mind for their future.

[@clementhathaway6778]

FreeCAD all the way now

[@martin_mue]

Because Thomas mentioned Eagle ECAD: There is a very solid OS alternative for that with KiCAD. The electronics for the LHC where to a large degree designed with that. And its user friendliness has increased significantly in the past few years.

[@me3dnone107]

Me too! I'm another happy KiCAD and FreeCAD user. Never ever trust a company that takes you work hostage!

[@stevelitt]

I switched from Eagle to KiCad when AutoDesk changed to the subscription model. For my purposes KiCad is just as good and was a bit easier to learn, so I can't see any reason why I would pay for Eagle.

[@EvanZalys]

most of CERN's electronics are done in Altium. Kicad isn't quite there yet but it's moving along.

[@martin_mue]

@@EvanZalys Ah, you're right , fake news. Thought CERNs support for the project meant they are using it to a larger degree.

[@jeanlesueur6936]

I can confirm what you said. I use KiCAD for electronics and that's a very good software.

[@JamesDoebbler]

You're entitled to your opinion. I would've rather seen you be a leader in the hobbyist community than a rationalizer of the corporate one. This seems like a great opportunity for someone to step up and use their platform to explore and popularize truly free and friendly CAD options. Would be extremely beneficial for the community.

[@beauslim]

The 10 doc limit definitely leaves a bad taste. It serves no functional purpose and is purely malicious.

[@soupisgoodfood42]

To be fair, it does decrease the load on their servers.That aside, they a for-profit corporation that are still offering you one of the best CAD packages around, for free. Malicious, indeed...

[@lllllllllllillllllll]

@@soupisgoodfood42 The cost for hosting a free user's data shouldn't be too bad (see Dropbox, Google etc all based on GB not file count). And why are they even hosted on their servers then? Just allow up to 10 to be cloud backed, and the rest are local. It had to have been local in the past, but then they went to the cloud as an "upgrade" then downgraded the free version to just handle less files. The amount of times I've had this software lock up the UI thread on a calculation is absurd, I wouldn't pay for software that horrible ever. Paying hundreds a year for subpar-engineered software with occasional use is not worth it at all.

[@aarons7615]

@@soupisgoodfood42 maybe they should include in the free version a non cloud save feature.. then they woudlnt have any load on their servers.

[@anttiandreimann8456]

@@lllllllllllillllllll That's weird but I have had exactly the same thought a number of times in the past. If I had to pay for this, I'd be really unhappy about stability and probably look elsewhere.

[@beauslim]

@@soupisgoodfood42 The rest of the changes I can understand. I think you misunderstand the document limit. It isn't 10 documents total. That would make sense. It is 10 that aren't marked as "archived". According to one Q&A from Autodesk, you will still be able to reference inserted-but-archived documents. And you can change which 10 you currently have as editable "at any time". So it sounds like they have introduced a hoop to jump through for no practical (i.e. storage) reason at all. Something that is done for no practical purpose, and is only intended to cause inconvenience, is "malicious" by definition. Call it "mildly malicious" if you like. It is still a bad look for Autodesk.

[@Novers]

10 active documents pisses me off because I'd rather be doing everything locally anyways

[@aarons7615]

this kind of seems like a pointless limitation that just makes it viable to subscribe.. whats the point of setting something active vs archived? the program doesnt care. like you said, id rather have the files saved on my drive and not even in the cloud.

[@GrandomamaBulletto]

@@wojtek-33 Luckily there's also the third option of FreeCAD. While it was a bit of a shock for me to move over today, I think I might get to 90% of the productivity I had in fusion in a short while.

[@Krmpfpks]

I started 3d printing 2 years ago and I actually liked FreeCAD much more and easier to learn. I never really got the messed up way constraints are workin in fusion. But FreeCAD crashed on me, a lot, so I reluctantly moved to fusion 360. If fusion 360 wasn’t free, there would be many students in Maker Spaces helping to iron out the bugs in FreeCAD, that wouldn’t be a bad, I would prefer a stable FreeCAD over fusion any time.

[@jeanlesueur6936]

I'm using Freecad and it's working very well for me. Why bothering with proprietary software with "changing conditions" when you can have good free software for nothing ?

[@oxivanisher]

They are locking my intellectual property behind a pay wall. All the other features I get and are no problem for me, but pulling an "apple" is leaving a VERRY bitter taste in my mouth.

[@calebland6246]

I don’t see how this is like Apple. Apple stuff is never free, and once you buy it you can use it forever and you can export to portable document formats. I can’t remember a time when Apple made their software more restrictive to get you to pay for it. Things have generally moved toward being cheaper/free.

[@kongchho]

I mean it's in the terms. When you sign up for the free version. If you have valuable intellectual properties it might be a good idea to use a paid software instead of freebies. Fusion is still way cheaper than most 3d software packages.

[@bluephreakr]

_There_ was your mistake. You made in their tool, so _technically_ it's AutoDesk's property now.

[@zac6x9]

@@kongchho the valuable property that was lost is the time spent learning the promised free software. The makers here will/can never pay for pro software. So we are salty we will have to leave.

[@zac6x9]

@@wojtek-33 I never read the TOS it is a waste of time as one of the terms will be "these terms of service can be changed at any time by Autodesk" (That is what has happened and will happen) The engagement and encouragement mentioned in this vid are however clear but deceptive. While the community was useful providing testing bug hunting ect. the service was free now we are not we can all get stuffed or pay. If we had all been working on FreeCAD our position would be much better. So Autodesk was again acting to kill even the free competition.

[@toastrecon]

I think what is really most distasteful, we've unintentionally supported for many years - the process of allowing ourselves to become "hooked" on free software, when the de-facto business plan for SO many SAAS companies is to monetize once the user base is hooked and well established. We've become somewhat entitled by happily accepting free software instead of finding software that we pay for and support that's at a price that works for us. That serves to kill the smaller indie companies, and plays into the hand of large corporations like Autodesk.

[@galoheredia6622]

Or insted of just brag about a propietary software that's trying to get some profit, you could try to learn FreeCAD, help to improve it and never have to depend again on propietary software! I'm sure that 90% of hobbyst projects will be just fine with it.

FreeCAD is great.

[@frankb5728]

FreeCAD makes my head spin... at least it did when I tried to get into it.. compared to my first few sessions with Fusion 360, it's a horrible experience if you are not a trained CAD engineer.

[@guidomersmann9744]

@@frankb5728 No clue when you tried it, but the recent 0.19 pre has come a long way. Once they manage to fix the topology naming issues FreeCAD not longer needs to hide in the shadows. Some betas with these fixes are available and they are awesome to work with. I can however understand why there is no rush in releasing this, as you can easy break the file format or the work people did, so you use caution in this matter.

[@fredpinczuk7352]

@@frankb5728 Donating a couple of $ to support FreeCad, I am sure would go a long way vs. moaning.

[@frankb5728]

@@fredpinczuk7352 yeah, I don't see how donating a couple of $ would go a long way vs moaning.. I am talking about my personal experience and why I decided to invest my time in fusion 360 over freecad, knowing that the free license would be crippled eventually. I am entitled to my opinion, the UX is far behind compared to fusion 360. If I was so inclined to use freecad I would think about donating money but the laundry list of grievances is too long at the moment.

[@jack_brooks]

The community can acted entitled because while it didn't put out the cold hard cash, value was transferred to Autodesk. How much would have Autodesk have had to pay for thousands of beta testers, what about the added cost in direct marketing in place of the word of mouth? What about employing hundreds of people making and writing tutorials that made people want to use it? The product only got to this state with this value transfer. The tool would have never gotten to this critical mass without a lot more money from Autodesk, if at all. Autodesk is a private company and is free to do whatever they like, but pretending the community is bunch of freeloaders is not accurate. They can alienate their community to their own detriment.

[@soupisgoodfood42]

People are often entitles when it comes to software. Just talk to a normal person when they have to pay a whole 99c for something on the App Store.

[@MadeWithLayers]

If you're having trouble reading between the lines: Some users were abusing the liberal licensing of Fusion360 and now we all get to bear the consequences.

[@anonony9081]

Tragedy of the Commons strikes again

[@hlavaatch]

In other words, collective punishment. Why don't they pursue the offenders for breach of the license? Is that worse than this PR disaster?

[@recess677]

Hey guys above stop being so logical and applying common sense to the situation. Of course they COULD have gone after the people breaching the terms and punished them accordingly but as Thomas said this is the best option for the community and free users to give us the best software possible. It is just purely a COINCIDENCE that Autodesk have locked all of your designs into their tool at a moments notice and these changes will result in more subscription revenue for Autodesk. /s @Thomas Sanladerer I respect you for all your contributions to the maker community but you came across as such a shill in this video. Completely downplaying the impacts and not addressing the very pertinent and real issues behind the "business" move that this so obviously was. I agree that Autodesk owes us nothing. However this is about the expectations they themselves set and how they are pulling the rug from under the community. This is such a classic "Drug Dealer" move. Get you hooked with free merchandise then bleed you dry after you have a taste. If you honestly believe that Autodesk did this in response to users that were breaking the terms then I think you may have been drinking a little too much kool aid. They always knew that risk and would have gamed out the risk reward. I would wager this factor had little to no impact on these changes

[@chadvoller]

@@old_Taki And those people would just keep making new accounts to get past that, if they were penalized that is. Without actually having the financial information of the account holders, Autodesk could only make assumptions that they are not super active makers but someone making a living off them for free. No where in the signup did I have to give any information other than I'm not making over $100k when they had the startup option, which isn't exactly a check. An application process for ACTUAL startups similar to how students need to apply for licenses would make sense for me. The honor system never works, people take advantage of that whenever they can. At the very least they could have done a tapered reduction in features with a bit more warning. STEP removal seems a bit hasty, but I don't disagree with some of the features that would be used mostly by professionals and were probably abused left and right. The new 10 project limit, removal of advanced CAM, rapids, and removal of importing and exporting of all the other CAD formats would have removed the majority of the cheaters in my opinion. Before F360, there was only fairly expensive pay options to do actually 3D CAM on my hobby Sherline CNC setup instead of 2.5D that the free ones were offering. Rhino and RhinoCAM would probably have been the route I went, which is about $2500 for 3 axis mill and lathe capabilities. I can still use the free version of F360 to do that instead of forking that amount over. But being that I use it also for translation of CAD files for work, I pay as I was supposed to.

[@MadeWithLayers]

@@recess677 I think the vast majority of users on the "old" free tier will not be upgrading to a paid option, even if they were using some of the features that are now restricted to the bigger licenses. Either the users leave Autodesk or keep using F360 anyway and just find ways to work around the limits. Neither option generates revenue for Autodesk, and I think they're smart enough to realize that.

[@Bajotaz]

I dont mind paying for a reasonable version of f360, but no way i pay more than 15usd/month...

[@crenn6977]

Like others, the main sticking points for me is the step export and the 10 active documents (the active documents may not affect me, but I can't be sure either). Do I understand why they did it? Yes. Do I like it? No, but that's because I liked using a proper CAD tool with few restrictions (apart from online access required) for free instead of 'that other way which won't be named'. I'm also going to be working on saving the couple of projects I had done as step files and looking for alternatives for now; seen a few people mention that FreeCAD has had an improvement, so that's likely the first place I'm going to look.

[@PGGraham]

FreeCAD FTW!

[@PaperHunter]

I've just tried FreeCAD for the first time ever and not only does it do what I need for 3D printing functional parts but what I've learned from Fusion 360 means I had no issues working in it. Sketch, loft, extrude, etc, all the same pretty much.

[@falias4]

if you feel really "stuck" at some point in the future you could get a 1 month subscription and export everything ;-) 60 bucks just to get your files may sound like a lot, but just compare it to the fact that you never paid anything for this awesome software.

[@SianaGearz]

@@PaperHunter What pisses me off about FreeCAD to no end is how the "same" (but actually different, just same name) tool is available in different workspaces, and produces subtly different and incompatible results, so it's not beginner friendly, but i can work with that. What really upsets me is how fragile it is when you go in and change something up the stack, ouch. If you have a complex object, it falls apart somewhat fierce. It also is much more fragile when freeforming things, you can afford yourself a lot more sloppiness in Fusion360, you can work much quicker. But i guess i'll have to either develop something better or just use FreeCAD. At least FreeCAD is immensely powerful and i know that whatever i want to do, there's a way to do it, and it's also somewhat frugal to the hardware. I want to learn DesignSpark Mechanical and maybe also some other software to gain some perspective. I think if there was an open-source clone of 123D Design, i bet many people would like that, so if i was developing something from scratch, it would be my goal. On the other hand, i spent many years developing and maintaining large open-source software with a large userbase, and i got seriously burned out, i'm not entirely certain that i'm up for it. In the end, i don't even have a computer any longer that would make compiling the project that i used to work on tolerable, i'm ruined, i don't have health insurance, my teeth are falling out, etc. So much for responsible life choices :D

[@greebfewatani]

I think the community needs to put some effort in openscad and free cad instead trying to push and donate to support those projects Limiting yourself to corporate good well is nonsense

[@thesecretworkshoppropstore7914]

I could not agree more.

[@MisterMakerNL]

In contrast to Solidworks or Inventor or most other CAD programs, you can just not pay your subscription and be fine. And if you been using Fusion360 for 10 years and they raise the price to 100 euro per month you will probably take it. Also they stopped peoples interest in alternatives like Freecad, which probably been as good as fusion now if people would been using that instead of Free Fusion.

[@MadeWithLayers]

Solidworks is moving to a subscription model, too - and their prices are already way past what Autodesk is charging.

[@guidomersmann9744]

@Aled Long yeah, as if we are only here because Fusion. Dream on.

[@MisterMakerNL]

@@MadeWithLayers Solidworks always had a subscription, but you could also just keep it to one version. You would get issues with reverse compatibility, as in if someone else send you a file from a newer sw version it won't work. And older versions didn't work in windows 7 and customers had to upgrade. Sticking to an old SW version was still the cheapest to use CAD.

[@ctheroux]

I gave Solid Edge from Siemens a spin. There is a free community version. It seems to be a very powerful CAD program. It is not cloud based. You download it and install it on your computer. You save your designs on your machine. I did one design while learning it. So far so good. Thanks for the videos.

[@huistv2005]

I hope the blenderCam developers find this change a good reason to pick up their work again. They called Fusion360 the reason they stopped.

[@huistv2005]

Yes I know and that's cool but do they have cam features? It's not the cad I am after.

[@thingswelike]

It's funny. I can live with them turning some features advanced like Simulation, 4-axis, etc. But the one that really grates is the Rapid Movements - I mean - that's just there to deliberately annoy me! Every single job I do I will now be thinking 'Damn you AutoDesk'. Is that what they want?

[@ruzterruzter]

exactly what I was thinking.

[@kazolar]

how about paying for subscription and then not have it activated because "bugs" -- and then trying to get tech support to fix it. I just got a large format CNC, I was right about to subscribe as I also just converted my mill to be CNC as well, and I do subscribe during the sale...and what happens -- nothing. Subscription doesn't work...talk about beta software, but they charge my credit card for a 3 year plan..

[@thingswelike]

@@ruzterruzter Do you think there'll be a way to get the post-processor to hook into the rapids and set the speed?

[@shirothehero0609]

Why don't you just edit the posted .nc in gcode? Make the rapids an off number (to easily distinguish) and do a find/replace. I've done that with feedrate before with excellent results.

[@EmbraceMaking]

They should just eliminate the free service, drop the price to $5 a month and you get those features back. They would probably retain a larger percentage of their user base and make out with the same amount of money and more people would be happy. My 2 cents speaking off the cuff

[@SmithyScotland]

STL exporting will be the next feature they drop when people don't take up there paid for plans. Also annoying that most 3d printing channels are siding with autodesk rather than the maker community.

[@r3dshed]

Export F360 file as Inventor .ipt or .iam, subscribe to GrabCAD and upload .ipt file to the Workbench space, re-export file with 'download as' to convert to step or other solid model format

[@JT-Works]

You da real MVP

[@RusakovLA]

There is a script for mass export to step, yesterday I exported everything successfully.

[@ManicQuinn]

We don't know if it'll work after 1st Oct.

[@RusakovLA]

@@ManicQuinn I am not talking about that. Ypu have to export now.

[@danieldc8841]

I tried this but unfortunately it crashed fusion!

[@MattKasdorf]

@@danieldc8841 have no empty files or directories, and be certain the filenames have no odd characters in them.

[@dabuhone287]

How do I do this? I've barely started learning fusion so this is a bummer but I would like to keep my designs

[@ProtonOne11]

one thing Fusion 360 probably managed is to get a few of the pirates that used cracked CAD tools to actually use a legal software for a change. Now they are probably crawling back to play the malware-lottery with cracked inventor downloads... Would be interesting to see if traffic on cracked CAD software increased after Autodesk made this annoucement.

[@wktodd]

Dassault should give away a decade old version of Solidworks - It'd kill autodesk ;-)

[@shadow7037932]

They already have an Education version available for $40 via a certain method (just google and you'll find info on how to do it).

[@Z-add]

It will also kill solidworks in the process. Bad idea.

[@jothain]

@@shadow7037932 again this claim. I've used Google and simply can't find that option. Only subscription based versions or you have to be registered student to get cheaper version,also to note that it isn't free.

[@roomtemp6374]

@@jothain Try these search terms together... experimental aircraft association solidworks

[@mikenewman4078]

@@shadow7037932 Thanks for the heads up. I saw your post on another thread and renewed my EAA membership. Surprisingly I was able to immediately instal Solidworks. I only have a few hours invested so far, but it is looking good. So good not having the cloud mess everything up. Dimensions and 2d drawing output are a world ahead. I will remain eternally grateful for Autodesk giving me the opportunity to take that first big step onto the learning curve. In effect they are telling me it is time to move on to a real CAD system. Fusion was only ever a marketing exercise and even now it is freeware in a Gucci jacket.

[@marvinpagaran8092]

Why not try FreeCAD and make a comparison video

[@imvisier9925]

This is exactly why I never used fusion in the first place, as it was painfully obvious from the start that Autodesk isn't some benevolent friend of the hobbist despite the facade they so desperately try to put on, but that this was just a buisness-as-usual corporate ploy to hook people into the program to milk them later, same way SW is almost universally available at universities so that companies are then hooked in when uni students go work for them. As much as Thomas here tries to undersell these changes, or assign them some meaningful purpose like going after licence abusers (LOL), and one can hardly blame him for his apparent "devotion" and blind-eye-turning given how deep he is in with these people himself, the truth of the matter is this is but level one of the changes that will be coming, and it wont be long before the "free" plan is absolutely useless if it exists at all, and even the basic plan is prohibitively expensive to justify not getting a better program at that point like Solidworks. Jump ship now.

[@DavesRocketShop]

Major complaints about how this was done: 1. 2 weeks? Come on. People need time to accommodate the changes, like exporting their files while they can. 2. NO NOTICE!!!!! They have my email. I've started up the product many times. NOWHERE have they provided a notice of pending changes to the TOCs. If you're not active on social media, you'll be blindsided, because you'll probably have passed the 2 weeks of warning. This video does not count as notice.

[@ChrisBloom]

I had a call with my autodesk rep as well for clarifications. One thing he said was that if you have multiple 'files' that you use as single components in an assembly - you can mark those files as 'inactive' but still use them in an active assembly you're working on. The other thing he said was that i don't think the 10 file limitation goes into effect until Jan 19, 2021. For me, it's ultimately a very small change on my workflows and what I can do.

[@thenormanfair]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Software as a Service (SaaS). Everyone is doing it so get used to it for commercial software. My previous employer is doing it and they make software for governments.

[@MadeWithLayers]

Why have customers pay just once when you can keep them paying every single month?

[@VenomKen]

Governments...you mean those people who never have to pay for anything with their own money.

[@auxchar]

@@MadeWithLayers Why sell licenses to your software when you could rent them?

[@shirothehero0609]

@@MadeWithLayers it's funny, people are complaining hard about it with Fusion, but gladly pay their Xbox live gold/game pass, Origin access, Amazon prime subscription, Netflix, etc. The fact is with the saas/monthly option, it gives a lot of people the ability to use software they wouldn't have been able to afford before with a $3k+ one time. Being able to get Adobe CS for $20 a month and have EVERYTHING is a huge value. Same with fusion. I guess people don't think companies should make any money on their products and get everything for free.

[@jacekjagosz]

When you left Onshape because they changed the license, to Autodesk's Fusion 360 that was risky, because it was likely they would follow in their footsteps. Fortunately Fusion's license is still fine, and price for full version low, so most people can still keep using it, but for how long? Unfortunately we have to expect the same from any future propietary software. We have 3 options: 1. Jump from one software to another when they change license 2. Give up and pay for the software 3. Stick to inferior open source options There is no good option here I strongly advocate for option 3, and to contribute and support to the software, so there can be more like Marlin, Octoprint or even Linux. But if somebody uses a software for work, this becomes much less viable.

[@MisterMakerNL]

Good option is to jump to open source and make it better. It will take some time but once it is there it will never go away.

[@johnc_]

3a. Fund and contribute to open source software so it is as good or better than the commercial software, its worked for Marlin, Octoprint, Slic3r etc already

[@hlavaatch]

But there is - improve the inferior open source to good enough for all of us!

[@jacekjagosz]

That's what I'm trying to do, I'm using Linux and many Open Source tools and I'm contributing to many projects, like being maintainer for Solus. But this isn't for everyone. As this is just my hobby I can live with learning new stuff and switch from program to program. But if you want to use it in your job, then the whole situation changes. Using a software nobody else uses is often impossible, it is hard to convince a company to use Open Source software.

[@johnc_]

@@jacekjagosz Great :) One thing that really helps is writing getting started guides and other basic documentation, it really helps grow the user base and community

[@v4lgrind]

Since export is no longer possible the lock-in is complete. Time to move on to something else.

[@shirothehero0609]

And that is 100% no longer true. Step will remain available.

[@FrankBocker]

There are a lot of videos from the community on this topic right now, but I think that this is the most cohesive. This video paints a clear picture of their goals and intent: Leave the free version good enough that the change doesn't make a big difference for casual hobbyists, but make it very difficult to make money with. A hobbyist will wait a little longer for the CNC to finish, but a professional will see a drop in parts per day that could affect the bottom line. A hobbyist will have to juggle files sometimes, but a professional might discover that some complex projects require extra work and creativity or just aren't possible any more. A hobbyist will lose a few cool toys, but a professional might be losing some critical features. I could guess that something like this was the intent from the videos coming from everyone else, but it's a lot more clear here. There's always a lot of thought and consideration behind the content in this channel and I like that.

[@qpeighty]

It is actually the CAM rapids thing that is making me look elsewhere. I am in the middle of building a large format CNC router (5ft. x 10ft.) while small projects would be doable, the large ones will be agonizing. Seems like a 45min cut will be brought to 2+ hrs just because you might have a group of holes far apart. I will probably keep it around for 3d printing part designs, but will probably find something opensource or something with a one time cost for CNC.

[@SianaGearz]

FreeCAD's Path Workbench can be your CNC tool.

[@abarasabwehttam]

I look at this a lot like 3DHubs did to us. The main reason was free was to get more user base. The more people that use it the more people that go to their employers and say, lets switch to F360. This is where they made a ton of money and stifled competition/innovation from buying a lot of smaller companies making CAD softwares. This allowed them to get people in and also make fewer other options available. They made a lot of people a lot of money by giving them a ton of content on KZbin where those creators were pushing F360. Now, just like 3DHubs, they decided we are big enough, we dont need the little guys anymore, and kick all those to the curb. This is a big reason I stick with SolidWorks, also F360 CAD is just trash in comparison. I highly suggest to the maker users, non profit types, that are looking for an alternative, find an organization that offers free seats of SolidWorks with their yearly membership fees, EAA is one, and you get a lot of fantastic content with their memberships.

[@mikenewman4078]

Matthew, you have nailed it. In the 2d CAD era, Autodesk kept buying all available and affordable alternatives remarketing one of them as that crappy Autocad LT. In the 3d modelling space Inventor couldn't even compete with Solidworks and the total user base was too small for all the players. Solidworks were only allowing a 3 month trial, which is nowhere near enough time for busy people (especially managers) to take on something completely alien and of dubious career enhancing value. I'm not sure which small 3d modelling system Autodesk bought and morphed into Fusion, but their motivation and use of KZbin influencers was obvious from the start. Does anyone really think John Saunders switched from Solidworks to a barely functioning (at the time) Fusion 360 because it was superior? Autodesk and the industry desperately needed a much larger engaged base especially among middle management. Makers were a barely tapped resource and Makers are open to innovation while often working as decision makers in their day job. There have been staff changes at Autodesk which have resulted in the current impatient beancounter grab. The original objectives were well managed. The jump however is premature and poorly though out. The product is still only about 80% there and held back severely, possibly fatally by the the costly to operate and poorly performing cloud. Cloud was always a dumb power grabbing idea which thankfully is now in decline.

[@123doos]

This might just be a good time to start a series where you can have a look at what other free or cheaper alternatives are around. I have started looking at FreeCAD which is amazing if you take into account that they don't have a lot of developers but it does seem like it needs a bit of spit and polish. Maybe showing a bit more of a spotlight on projects like FreeCAD can help them get more people donating to the project and thus help the developers make it better. There may also be other good options that are cheaper. I know in the laser engraving/cutting world there are many free bits of software around but a lot of people just simply buy LightBurn because it is a relatively cheap one off purchase and seems to work really well.

[@timmyd24601]

Could not agree more, thanks for bringing a grounded and logical voice to these changes... For a maker there should be absolutely no notice taken.... If you're complaining about limiting the features, then you should be paying for it

[@mihaidumbrava5498]

Use FreeCAD for 3D modeling and KiCAD for electronics project!

[@Arek_R.]

It changed, my license just expired and it's in read only mode. I cannot export anything, not even STL...

[@RocketMagnetUK]

Agree it's totally fine for a company to make money. I could see many home hobbyists being fine paying a reasonable fee for the software but to many it's just not worth it.. were not companies who can write off some of the costs .. it's just for fun. I'm not sure this and channels like it can really continue to recommend it though as to the vast majority it's very costly relatively to get rid of some annoyances and with no real hobbyist tier package with full export features.. that's pretty dumb long term IMO.

[@hanspijpers2100]

Thanks for a clear explanation And indeed the step is back kind regards Hans By the way any chance of doing a qidi i mate s in near future ?

[@warrior3d27]

still new to fusion 360, does this mean we cant make snap fit enclosures anymore? I don't know all the terminology. Thanks

[@K1dd0]

"you're not paying anything.. at least with money." aha!.. nothing is free 90% of the time especially the product has to do with a business.

[@guidomersmann9744]

Not necessarily. Just look onto Cura. It is open source and there is a company behind it. Same goes for Prusa-Slicer.

[@hosyrm]

Well why would a company pay a team to create a service for us to use for free if it has no gains??!

[@guidomersmann9744]

@@hosyrm Who says they have nothing to win? It is a marketing opportunity for their own business. It could be a 3d print service or a printer manufacturer who wants a all out of one hand experience. Why does Cura support any printer? Why does Prusa-Slicer? In Cura you have the optional cloud service bound. I guess Prusa is doing something similar. If a company deals with 3d models (not necessarily for 3d printing) made by customers there is a way to use FreeCAD as entrance.

[@DreadDeimos]

@@hosyrm Ask Blender developers about that.

[@mvadu]

You need to understand the difference between open source where community provides lot of man hours to closed source where company has to pay for the entire development.

[@MrDaniell1234]

You will still be able to use the pocket NC it just will have to be done with the orientation in the setup, not the toolpaths

[@Section31HQ]

As a hobbyist that uses f3d maybe once every 2 months and find that I have to re-learn it because they moved things around or change them, I'll be moving to a different platform. I'm not making money with them and they are certainly not making money with me. When f3d came out I thought they were altruistic, but now I see they are still Autodesk. Thanks to all who pointed out the free alternatives.

[@Loopyengineeringco]

Goodbye Fusion. Hello Freecad!

[@ericlotze7724]

@Thomas Sanladerer I would love some sort of "Learning FreeCAD" series. All of the 3D Printing Channels (Including You) Have been contributing to the knowledge of F360, would be neat to do that the freecad now.

[@KaspaWasTaken]

this surprised me I thought you would be more concerned about the lock in

[@Eta1987]

I just don't understand why fusion not making a personal plus subscriptions for like 10-20$ to get the features that they are taking away from us. Im willing to pay that but 70$ a month is kinda to much for me. Let see what the future brings.

[@fuba44]

Is making money from youtube videos about fusion 360 still allowed? One could argue your are using fusion to make money.. thus you need a license..

[@kfmutrus]

LOL if you promoting F360, Autodesk has special offers for you in terms of licensing, that was stated right on they site about year ago.

[@user-gk2cg2th9h]

What would constitute profit? Is it any amount or is there a cutoff for it? Looking at starting to sell one of my designs

[@imbw267]

As a light-use hobby user (10 models/year), it is really tough to justify $500/year to keep .STEP functionality. I have migrated my 20-30 files off the platform before they are locked in.

[@Pleasiotic1]

Welcome to the cloud everyone thinks they love.

[@kylek29]

I get locking the major features behind the business license (multi-axis CNC, generative stuff, simulation stuff), but they took it a tad too far without offering a hobbyist tier to the plans (non-commercial, but has key features hobbyists need like export formats and rapids). I suspect that when management at AutoDesk realizes that these changes didn't give the expected uptick in subscribers, they're going to take away more.

[@blaedd]

Honestly the changes seem pretty targeted at people abusing the personal license. It's a bit of a pain/disappointment for the rest of us, but yeah, still a very usable, very powerful tool for the casual maker. And the cost for a license is actually pretty low compared to other commercial offerings. Within the realm of affordable for a serious hobbyist, for sure.

[@Stoneylloyd]

I think you are right. From what I've seen nothing holds a light to F360 for component modelling. I have been learning it for just over 2 years now and always thought at the back of my mind that it was well open to abuse. I think they recognise our usefulness in promoting F360 to being an industry standard. My grandson has cut his teeth on it and will probably be influential in it's adoption when he gets into the workplace. It's a tad inconvenient but it has made me have a bit of a spring clean of my projects at least and made me be more disciplined in what I want to keep as opposed to just exercises. I just hope that the archiving/unarchiving process is slick, that will be the probable clincher for me.

[@Chrotesque]

The only thing I dread about this is the 10 document limitation, I 3d print for personal use and personal use only and have a collection of all of my designs so far. I would save them locally if that was an option to be fair and as of right now, all I can do with them (in my single project I have) is to delete them. As far as I understood them, the menu and its functionality is going to change and probably help with that process to be as painless as possible, hopefully at least.

[@ianschutt6242]

Thanks Thomas very clearly reasoned and explained.

[@MrConnor128]

Thank you so much for the clarification. Their plans are a bit confusing to sort through. My student subscription of inventor just expired and I am scrambling to come up with an affordable replacement. I love it, but it is like $4000 a year!!

[@VincentGroenewold]

We simply shouldn’t encourage software in the cloud anymore. Just like we shouldn’t buy actual hardware that only works in the cloud. The investment you make is way more valuable than the time a company may suddenly limit its use or go out of business. They can have a subscription for personal use, it makes sense to make money obviously, just don’t limit the one and only feature (format) that’s open and standard. Thomas, you applaud Prusa for being open and having the possibility to share things. I think the limiting of that simple format part was definitely something they may receive more flack for.

[@coaltowking]

Autodesk just needed to make it less likely for people to use the free version if they should have been paying for it. They've succeeded with most of their products by making them the "standard". To do that, they need to keep it easily accessible. It's a great business strategy. Loved the video, BTW.

[@ElectricalInsanity]

I had been using FreeCAD for years and finally decided to try out Fusion 360 a couple months ago. The problem I have isn't this reduction in features today. I can change my workflow to a more "top down" approach, I don't need CAM, and I don't use extensions. The problem I have is what is going to happen in the future? We just lost export to STEP, so if there are any changes I truly object to down the road, I'm stuck with Fusion. What happens when we lose export to STL? What happens when you can only have 10 components in an assembly? I would rather be safe and go back to FreeCAD than wait for the inevitable restrictions.

[@Layershift53]

To be honest, I was always surprised that Fusion 360 is basically distributed for free. Even the now requested price is ridiculous low compared to Solidworks/Alias/Inventor or even Rhino. Fusion has progressed enormously in the last few years so I can´t help but feel that some of the comments sound like a child who has had a lollipop taken away.

[@shirothehero0609]

People - stop complaining about step removal. It's not going anywhere. So many comments are still focusing on step as the core of their issue and it's no longer true. Autodesk listened. We should all be happy about that.

[@randoma83]

I don't want to start a flame, but if someone could afford a 5-axis mill I think he could afford 300€ a year for the plan. Even a decent CNC it's not so cheap. If you don't like subscription and still want to do nurbs modeling switch to Moi3D. Living in the internet era doesn't mean we have to obtain EVERYTHING for free. Behind the software we use there are people that would like to be paid, even for the evil Autodesk.

[@VenomKen]

Thus the flaw in your argument. Those people that have a 4 axis machine aren't paying a subscription fee for it in perpetuity. They may finance it but eventually they will own it. People don't like paying repetitively for something they'll never own. I don't rent a place to live...I'm not "renting" software by the month.

[@zac6x9]

If I design a part to be machined on a five axis mill it can be directly manufactured with reduced setup costs making my hobby part cheaper for me.

[@hlavaatch]

This is somewhat inevitable for two reasons: 1) Fusion's basic idea - buying products and integrating them into one fused product (buing companies as they have done is expensive whether users use the features they bring or not) 2) A360 cloud - This brings expenses that need to be paid for. While giving away a copy of software costs nothing, running a cloud costs money. I believe Fusion is supposed to bring users into the A360 cloud so that they could be locked in. That's why they removed the local saving and real offline work. You can not give away free Fusion without the 360 cloud (thats the point of it!) hence Fusion can not possibly be free in a sustainable way.

[@rudolfaeschlimann6959]

I think I would rent fusion for like 5$ a month. 23$ is a bit steep for what I use the software. I probably use it twice a month in average (sometimes more sometimes less). It is still great that Autodesk is providing a free version with that much of functions, I hope that stays like that for a bit

[@sasca854]

I don't even really need the additional stuff that a paid subscription gets me, but I purchase it anyway because there a few nice-to-have things and more importantly I believe that good work deserves to be supported with a purchase.

[@keepitrealandtoasty]

Always pay your software or support free software plain simple. If you dont do it prepare for a dissapointment. A business is made to make money.

[@JATMN]

Just did a count of my active projects by your description. I have 375 right now. However none of this affects me, been paying for f360 for awhile now. (Though my renewal price went up considerably!) Thanks for looking into this for everyone and letting us know!

[@PGGraham]

Seriously, why aren't more people using these tools!? FreeCAD, is full featured CAD. It even has FEA! Built right in. You own your own models, you do what you want with them, can export them anyway you want! Blender is the same, if you need more sculpting or more fluid designs. Why is it always the proprietary web tools that get the love? Yes @Thomas Sanladerer , I'm calling you out on this. Is there money involved?

[@MadeWithLayers]

Autodesk / F360 (or anybody else) are not paying me to say any of this. Why do I prefer F360 (or even OnShape back in the day) over FreeCAD? I've tried FreeCAD and found it absolutely horrible to use - to the point where, even following a tutorial, I could barely get a usable part out. FEA is a cherry on top, but as long as the core functionality of a tool is cumbersome to use AND there are better alternatives available, I'll use the tool that enables me to create the stuff I want to make in the most efficient and convenient way possible.

[@PGGraham]

@@MadeWithLayers although I agree that the learning curve is bumpy, the end results are far worth it. Like any tool, learning how to use it is half the struggle. Remember many of us took classes several classes months of classes to learn how to use these other tools, I remember my AutoCAD classes and how much I hated that interface at first until I finally got used to it. As professional designers that's just part of the job.

[@PGGraham]

@@MadeWithLayers and I'm very happy to hear that you weren't paid for any of this. I've always loved your videos, and consider you a first place to go to when looking for new information, or advice on printing. Thank you for your work.

[@adrianmalkovich7101]

@@MadeWithLayers But isn't "FreeCAD is hard to use" an argument in favor of you learning it, and teaching people how to use it? I'm sure you have better insights into how well these videos do, but any time a maker channel posts a Fusion 360 tutorial, I just skip that video. There's no way I'm going to invest into learning something that will probably be obsolete in a year or two because the software's developer makes some inane changes to how it's licensed, and it's suddenly outside my price range. But I would be interested in watching you explain how to use FreeCAD, not despite, but precisely *because* it's daunting to learn.

[@cassio-eskelsen]

Yes, it may be that for the time being these limitations are few. But Autodesk is changing its licenses very quickly and certainly if it sees that these "minor inconveniences" were not enough to increase revenue, there will be yet another series of restrictions in the version in a few months. So the sooner you change, the better.

[@mouhabuntu]

As an Ubuntu old member and Linux OS supporter, I would like to say that FreeCad can be the best option to replace fusion 360. You have to watch what's coming soon on the 0.19 future next version. But, better to say all of us if we support FreeCad either by feedback, comments, dev, money and...All of us will be happy and we will benefit from it. Kinda becoming like Firefox in the past few years competing internet explorer which will die next year in 2021.

[@rodryk5605]

Honestly. This was to be expected. If you are like me and want to learn a CAD software just pick something thats opensource. Need an example? Openscad or FreeCAD. If you're inventive you can even use freecad to export a .step file from openscad.

[@MadeWithLayers]

I don't think OpenSCAD (or even FreeCAD) are tools that are can be compared to F360.

[@ThantiK]

Never thought I'd see Thomas simping for Autodesk.

[@marinahd6332]

Only applies to the free version? Only? WTF ?!

[@Zayllyaz]

This is the best video I have seen that goes over what is changing and what really matters for makers. I use the onshape extension for exporting files for laser cutting and was worried that it would be removed, glad you asked directly about that and that its not going anywhere. Guess I'm a lucky one that this change doesn't actually change much for.