Game of Thrones: The Philosophy of the Finale

We return to the finale to examine the possible philosophical themes that were left behind by George R.R. Martin and ruined by the showrunners. If you've been watching the Brienne series, none of this will come as much of a surprise, but I wanted to lay this information out of the show watchers.
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Game of Thrones is an American fantasy drama television series created for HBO by David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Based on the fantasy novel series, A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. A Game of Thrones is one of the most successful television series to ever made and continues to captivate audiences all over the world. The series is set on the fictional continents of Westeros and Essos, and interweaves several plot lines with a large ensemble cast. The first narrative arc follows a civil war among several noble houses for the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms; the second covers the attempts to reclaim the throne by the exiled last scion of the realm's deposed ruling dynasty; the third chronicles the rising threat of the impending winter and the legendary creatures and fierce peoples of the North.
#asongoficeandfire
#gameofthrones

[@Necroxion]

The closing the book on wet ink act is actually a good metaphor for the series though

[@johnnye87]

That Tyrion/Jon scene sounds like a gamer attempting every single mutually contradictory branch of a dialogue tree until they find the one the NPC responds to

[@char4980]

LMAOOOO

[@god47398]

thats the fucking nail on the head bro

[@turtleanton6539]

Yuup

[@Liberater4589]

The ending really impressed me, I’ve never seen an ending to a series capable of retroactively ruining an entire series as thoroughly as game of thrones, multiple times I’ve thought about rewatching the series but decided not to because I know how little any of the early stuff means and where it inevitably ends up

[@Toast4tw]

I think that's honestly the worst thing about it. It killed all the hype, no one cares anymore. You can't even recommend it to people even though the first couple seasons are actually good.

[@conniebenny]

"I’ve never seen an ending to a series capable of retroactively ruining an entire series as thoroughly as game of thrones." Have you watched 'Lost'?

[@BoxStudioExecutive]

@@conniebenny Lost lost itself long before the finale

[@theeagleofbavaria]

The problem with ASOIAF and GOT is that it’s too much centered around subversion and cliffhanger. So after 4 four epic seasons and 3 books that are not really that great as a whole but do have fantastic moments and well written, nuanced characters, the story loses its edge and become quite dull and predictable. Yes the showrunners were clumsy to say the least, but I don’t think the latter part of the story has that much potential on its own anyway. Nevertheless, if we’d have had both Jon and Daenerys as rulers at the end, people wouldn’t have complained that much, no matter what the quality of the season would have been.

[@sonneh86]

@@BoxStudioExecutive so did game of thrones

[@Matt-hs9gw]

"Everything past season 4 was drivel". SAY IT!!

[@Hochspitz]

I doubt that D&D even tried to break down Tyrion and Jon's conversation as you have done. They would first have to look up at least Deontology in a dictionary -:))

[@Valkanna.Nublet]

They'd have to start with learning what a dictionary is ;)

[@johnnye87]

It's not at all surprising that a fictional dialogue can explore those kinds of questions without the writers having any clue about the philosophical concepts they're raising. It's not like people in real life don't struggle to answer those questions, even if they've never read a philosophical text about them, or even if they lived before philosophers gave names to the various answers! It's also not surprising that the end result is confused and inconclusive rambling, since that's what real people tend to come out with when they try to debate philosophical concepts. Doesn't stop them *trying*.

[@Hochspitz]

@@johnnye87 Yes, I can get onboard with what you write which is why this analysis is so good! On the other hand, D&D were more focused on belittling the actors they didn't like with their cringing dialogue, in particular Kit and just putting GRRM's work aside for spectacular nonsensical battles. Yeah well, done and dusted.

[@robadamson1]

Season 8 rationalizing reminds me of the joke about the kid digging through the giant manure pile in the hope of finding the pony in there somewhere.

[@sophiawilson8696]

LoL😁

[@PainCausingSamurai]

Just noticing now how much Tyrion's persuasion of Jon mirrors Varys' manipulation of Ed

[@JoniukasVader]

Back are we and

[@Gabacp]

Hey Preston, Just wanted to thank you for introducing me to the 1000 worlds through your bookclub. The works mean so much to me, and i would've never read them if It wasn't for you.

[@virusbomb413]

This reminded me that I need to re-read/watch that entire series. Was great stories with amazing analysis.

[@BenJover]

Hell yes they are great

[@Captain_Blak]

This. I had a phase of listening to both the audiobooks and Preston's analyses every night at one point in around 2017. They just captured my attention in a way that other media at the time couldn't.

[@Captain_Blak]

@@EveryAllman That channel was fantastic at it's peak.

[@BanonOmus]

“1000 worlds book club” and “minds of wolves and robins” changed my life 🤯

[@Staticjokes]

How, how, how? How can you make this episode have meaning and substance. Absolutely amazing!

[@corbinskywalker]

GRRM PLANNED IT ALL

[@dialaskisel5929]

Ah, a discussion of Ethics! My favorite! It should be noted that Utilitarianism (Greatest Good for the Greatest Number) is a branch of consequentialism, as is Ethical Egoism (Greatest Good for Me). Also, I'm sure we will one day get to finish the A Song of Ice and Fire books. We just need to make sure to hire a Necromancer. First to reanimate George after he kicks it so he can continue writing. And then to reanimate the rest of us so that we can read it when he is finally finished with it.

[@PebProductions46]

But who reanimates the necromancer?

[@BubblegumCrash332]

I could listen to Preston talk about season 8 for another couple years

[@dim391]

I hate the final season as well. I tolerated seasons 5-7, even though each got progressively worse. And just as I saw the pilot episode on the day it came out and at the very hour it premiered, I saw the finale the same way. Except when I saw the pilot I was in awe and wonder, and seeing the finale left me feeling empty and pure disappointment. If I was forced to make any sense of the finale, which is one of the most difficult things to do, I would say the finale parallels Jon and Ned's choices as "honor-bond" men. Whereas Ned did take part in overthrowing the Mad King, he judged Jaime for personally killing the Mad King, despite never being told nor considering the fact that perhaps there was a good reason for killing the King. He, like the others, called Jaime 'kingslayer' and having no honor. Ironically, it was honor that killed Ned. In the case of Jon, after much thought, personally kills the "Mad Queen," believing it was the 'honorable' thing to do - and this was after his 'queen' did what her father failed to do. It was through honor that led to Jon killing Daenerys. They both saw honor in a different light. Makes me wonder if Ned would've judged Jon for what he did, and if so, would he still judge Jaime.

[@mickey4125]

Interesting... I like this idea about whether or not Ned would approve.

[@dim391]

@@mickey4125 Right?! And it’s not as if Dany was some random person who wanted the Iron Throne. This was the Mad King’s daughter. His potential heir, other than Viserys. A Targaryen. The offspring of the man who was ‘betrayed’ by Jaime, according to Ned.

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

@@dim391 Ned would see that Tyrion was behind pushing Jon towards it and would say "fookin Lannisters!"

[@pplr1]

Johnny Skinwalker, that is a good point. Why is it that the only person Tyrion can play is Jon in the end?

[@johnnyskinwalker4095]

@@pplr1 I don't know but it make all kind of sense. Lannisters are always the puppet masters

[@Mr.PepeSilvia]

Still haven't been able to rewatch but I will choo choo choose to watch this 🚂

[@taylorbeckett9686]

Actually I'd like to point out that Jon probably did kill Dany to protect his family. His and Tyrion's convo led up to the topic that Arya and Sansa don't get to choose, but Jon does. It's no coincidence that what sinks Dany is her saying people don't get to choose. Jon realizes that Sansa and Arya truly are in danger and that there is no reasoning with Dany. In the end it really was love is the death of duty. Jon kept, stupidly, stating that Dany was his queen. His duty was to her. He defended her till the end. His love for his family was what sealed the deal.

[@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin]

Except that Jon, in the previous scene, already established that Sansa "doesn't get to choose." Dany reiterating that shouldn't affect anything. The only thing that is new between the scenes is that it's now everyone that don't get to choose.

[@MdB92]

17:25 'Were they really thinking about moral philosophy?' No! Don't forget D&D's script for this episode refers to the Iron Throne in its burning by Drogon as just a 'dumb bystander'... Yes, it was NOT burnt on purpose; there is NO (intended) symbolism behind it... We - the fans - come up with symbolism to rationalize the scene, as we were expected to do by the writers (they relied on this get-out-of-jail-free card in many occasions during the last four seasons of the show). The writers themselves did not put in such effort. They probably included this scene just because they thought it looked cool - nothing more, nothing less.

[@mitchellhouser1572]

I feel like having Drogon melting the throne for *no* reason is actually MORE stupid than him doing it for some pseudo political/philosophical allegory. If only they had set up Drogon's personal hatred of chairs earlier on in the season.

[@masonrahal6980]

Ugh

[@robh678]

What I did like about about season 8: score, cinematography, and some good acting. Kit played it perfectly when Jon confronted Dany. You can tell he’s looking for any excuse to not do what he must and it’s torturing him.

[@sophiawilson8696]

Jon should kidnap Danny, until she calm down.

[@mokarokas-1727]

@@sophiawilson8696 - What about the dragon guarding her?

[@sophiawilson8696]

@@mokarokas-1727 the dragon let him pass the first time.

[@annedavis3340]

Thanks for new content. Back to forgetting the final seasons ever happened

[@mpalfadel2008]

Agreed Everything past season 4 went to shit When can we see a animated version of the story that adheres to Martins writing and location descriptions?

[@Bonkatsu12]

When we know what the ending is... which almost certainly will never happen.

[@04McE]

Martin needs to finish book 6 and then set up book 7 as a choose-your-own-adventure style book to be completed in a vast number of ways by his fans.

[@st.anselmsfire3547]

When I was watching this episode, I also noted a theme that was probably in the book outline but forgotten in the show: "Great Men" aren't always "good men," and that messianic figures should come with a warning (á la Dune).

[@Knight860]

D&D "Kind of forgot" that some fans were smarter than they were. I wonder if GRRM made Ryan Condal keep A World of Ice and Fire, The Rogue Prince, the Princess and the Queen and Fire and Blood on set all the time when filming the prequel series so as not to half ass the show.

[@jennifera.4511]

If Martin really isn't done with the books already, he needs to hire Preston as his ghostwriter or something.

[@stefanilic0421]

I agree. It would definitely accelerate the process of finishing the books.

[@Jimbotheone]

Dear God. The amount of lemon tree chapters would require another 4 books.

[@dirrdevil]

Do you seriously believe GRRM is actually done with not one, but two books already? I have hope he will finish them, but they clearly are not finished. That's fact, not speculation.

[@gwh3013]

@@Jimbotheone I'm totally up for that

[@BoxStudioExecutive]

@@hughmoore6970 he could live to 300, still won’t be done

[@sarrabeth2052]

If Tyrion had any moral commitment or believed any of what he was trying to convince John of, he would have stabbed Dani with his Hand pin instead of throwing it down the stairs. Instead, he is locked up in a prison cell hoping to convince Jon to do the dirty deed. Tyrion could have died ''for the people'' and maybe atoned for the crimes he committed in the past. He only pretends to be the ''most moral man in the universe.''

[@nickkoch3467]

Thank you for putting Ralph Wiggum in the video

[@yezenirl6331]

Actually I think the philosophy of the finale is a little too obvious, and people hated the finale so much they are preventing themselves from getting it. Rather than casting Jon as a philosopher seeking moral truth, the first two scenes can be very clearly understood when we understand Jon as a human being with his own values, which ultimately come from his father. Like you say Tyrion tries throwing all kinds of arguments at Jon to get him to betray Dany, but the last one (the one about Jon's sisters) is clearly the most powerful, and is the one that gives Jon the most distress (Kit Harrington himself was playing it that way). This is why Dany sinks herself when she says the line "they don't get to choose." Because "what about all the other people who think they know what's good" to Jon, is really his way of trying to determine what will be Dany's response to dissent - specifically from Jon's family. Obviously if you try to view this from the lens purely of moral philosophy, it becomes about choice/free will as an abstract. But when viewed through the lens of a specific character with specific relationships, it's a lot more about those relationships. Yes Jon's experiences with the Freefolk and NW have led him to value free choice to some degree, but it's not like he is turning his back on monarchy as a system. He is merely being put into a position where he has more empathy with the dissenters than the rulers. Also your whole thing about the death of the gods kind of falls flat in the face of Bran (the three eyed raven) being made king, something you seemingly don't want to mention, but is pretty integral to the philosophical resolution of the story.

[@db7213]

I agree 100% with this analysis. If anyone needed to be murdered in order for the gods to be dead and there to be free will, it would be Bran. But Maybe GRRM told them "Bran will be made king and then Jon will have to murder him for there to be free will" but D&D thought "hmm, let's make that Dany instead". We already know that D&D took plot arcs from the books but transposed which characters were involved (Jorah getting grayscale instead of Jon Connington, Cersei being involved with the golden company instead of Aegon, Sansa marrying Ramsay instead of fake Arya).

[@yezenirl6331]

@@db7213 Nah. Notice that Bran stops violating anyone's free will after Hold the Door. He is very adamant about letting people choose their path. This is because unlike Dany, Bran learns his lesson about personal autonomy. This is why Bran is going to be king at the end and not get murdered. GRRM has been very clear about this.

[@yezenirl6331]

@@db7213 sorry there is no way that Jon kills King Bran at the end and D&D swapped it. Everyone in the know has been very clear about this.

[@db7213]

@@yezenirl6331 Clear to whom? Where has GRRM said any of the things you attribute to him?

[@yezenirl6331]

@@db7213 yes. Bran as the final king at the end of the story literally came from GRRM. Sorry but what you are describing is a fanfiction where D&D needlessly changed the story around and then lied about it, and you get to decide what those transpositions are arbitrarily to suit your personal taste. D&D often transpose plot arcs from one character to another. But they don’t lie and say the transposed version is Martin’s.

[@handoftheking4123]

At 12:14 I felt like I was in a 15 round prizefight. Anything to do with Season 8 makes time slow down. Maybe Preston could do a video using Einstein's theories to explain why it was such shit.

[@lizbita6412]

Preston, I think you just explained why we are never going to get the end of ASOIAF from GRRM. If his point was to stamp subjective morality into an epic, timeless tale for the ages he probably needed to reconcile his plot threads before he reached the end of his own generativity psychosocial stage. His entire perspective may have altered too much as he’s grown into an older, “wiser,” anti-war, postmodern intellectual, pseudo-feminist, hippie man. It’s certainly easier to cast off notions of a higher power, or afterlife when you’re young, exceptional, and think you’re smarter than JRRT.

[@67tedward]

This is interesting because I wonder how him growing older has affected his views on religion. The books all borrow from his athiestic worldview when he was 50 but now at 73 and not in the best of health he could see things very differently.

[@Ζήνων-ζ1ι]

In Feast for Crows we kind of see just a little bit of change on his views of religion, i think. It's at least a bit more positive. Even so, I wonder if it's possible for him to actually have matured enough to change the ending or at least it's philosophy. He seems stubborn and stuck in the 60s. I can't expect more from someone who complains about the tax policies of Aragorn.

[@lizbita6412]

@@meansend2657 I don’t think GRRM is lazy or a coward. I don’t think he gaf if we bitch. I think he’s a snob whose philosophy and tale telling just became too convoluted. Let’s face it - world building and political triple crosses are wonderful, great fun, but not all that unheard of or innovative. I imagine the ability to get closure on ASOIF is more due his motive to break the foundation of good v bad, with the hammer his superior “subjective morality.” It’s actually kind of ironic, GRRM needs to be the higher power just to get his characters to the end of the story all while convincing us there is no greater meaning. *sigh* I miss the days when I saw things like beauty and beast themes, sci-fi hive minds, mafioso hijinks, and fantasy dragon genetics in his books. Now all I see are failed character arcs and frey pies… I mean frayed plots that will probably never come together.

[@brettbaratheon9776]

You are so good, so good. Where George leaves leaves us longing for more in the dark, you turn a light on.

[@mooocowcowcowmooo]

An Alt Shift X video AND a Preston video ALL IN THE SAME DAY? YEESSSSS!

[@maic991]

Rehabilitate the show's image and undoubtably GRRM will make a character with your name in his last book. Maybe not a pivotal one, but at least one that doesn't have much chance to ruin the theme. I loved the vid, hopefully more will follow on revisiting the show's past seasons with this new outlook.

[@drew413]

Ser Jacob Preston of The Vale

[@sherlocksmuuug6692]

"Philosophy!? Something something eight grade, something something book reports." What pisses me off the most is that those bozos actually managed to write quite a few good show-only scenes during the first season. They just stopped giving a fuck when the show got too big to fail and devolved back into overgrown frat boys. So now we are stuck with 4 increasingly shitty seasons and they got banished by the industry from doing any meaningful projects, so nobody gets to be happy.

[@Necroxion]

Honestly, I would've applauded the philosphy in this if it didn't follow 8 seasons and 3 episodes of Daenerys not throwing tantrums at the very worst points of her life before suddenly going genocide when at the best moment of her life Also if they didn't turn the whole "choosing a king" scene into "hey story ish importent gib me awardz" EDIT: Never mind, the philosphy is even worse than i remember EDIT2: Hey wait a minute, Daenerys is a metaphor for Undertale players

[@pplr1]

Thank you for your comment. Daenerys has often been an advocate for or agent of giving other people more choices in the tv series so anyone that saw her start to transition Meereen to form of a democracy (like a constitutional monarchy) in season six would notice the line about others not getting to choose is unlikely to come out of her mouth.

[@KalenCarslaw]

Thank you for the side-note at approx 14:30 which highlighted "personal responsibility towards society" with respect to personal freedoms. What a ridiculous time to be alive.

[@exu7325]

Yeah, the clarification is sorely needed. The colloquial usage of the words "freedom" and "choice" is severely warped and distorted.

[@heidstress14]

Thank you for sneaking Ralph Wiggum in there, nice palate cleanser.

[@KingClovis]

I think the "love is the death of duty" line is right out of the books. Didn't the Old Bear or Maester Aemon say that to Jon when he was planning on ditching the Night's Watch? Whatever, the writers are a bunch of failures.

[@fjwald]

I think it was Jon remembering something Ned said during those scenes where the Old Bear and Aemon where trying to keep him from leaving. I think it also comes up when Jon doesn't eat with his friends to keep from developing too many attachments

[@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin]

There is a similar line in Book 1 and Jon thinks immediately that it's wrong. I have no problem with the line on its own,;its the placement of it. It's the exact wrong place to put it.

[@KingClovis]

@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin I agree. I did not mean to come across like I thought the line was dumb, but yeah, the show writers are a bunch of failures. They just cut good stuff from the books and paste wherever. (By the way, "whatever, the writers are a bunch of failures." =my new favorite. I laughed as hard as every time you do the Rogue Prince bit!)

[@SerbAtheist]

@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin It's the exact RIGHT place to put it and the fact you don't realize it is hillarious. Tyrion's words about how love is more powerful than reason very much echo what Master Aemon said about love in S1. Jon thought the line was wrong in Book/S 1 because he still was a hotheaded teen who couldn't keep his ego in check. You then actually have the gall to say how the line is misplaced because show is trying to contrast love for Dany with duty to her, whereas it is immediately obvious to anyone not biased that the show is contrasting Jon's love for Dany with his duty to the REALM OF MEN, i.e. universal morality, and the oath he took when he joined the NW.

[@martineghj8107]

@@SerbAtheist An oath he very much thought he had fulfilled after his death. Seeing as he hands over command of the NW and takes up title as The King in the North, contrary to the words of his oath. No, I have to agree that the line here is misplaced or misinterpreted. At the very least, it would be a clash between both his love for and duty towards Dany.

[@tupimpacaterpillar3516]

By the way Jon stating “ love is the death of duty” actually makes sense because Jon is initially choosing Duty for his queen over love for anyone else AND love for his queen over duty to everyone else. So in that moment he’s actually confirming to Tyrion that his love for Daenerys means the death of his duty to the realms (he does not want to kill her for them)

[@Zhohan-]

It's convoluted, but it would have made more sense under better writers.

[@tupimpacaterpillar3516]

@@Zhohan- it made sense imo even with these same writers we’ve had since s1

[@GhostMishoPlayz]

Proof in the "text" of the show that Jon did not intend to kill Dany when he entered the building is Drogon letting him in, who kind of sizes him up.

[@makouras]

I stopped watching the show after season 5 (there were things that annoyed me even in season 2) and I only watched Preston's recaps. And around season 7 I stopped watching them, too. I knew the ending left everyone disappointed but I hadn't heard a line of dialog. And man are they terrible! D&D turned ASOIAF into Avengers, and they tried in only the last episode to somehow get in line with George's vision.

[@SHARKVADERS]

PJ IS BACK FOMOS

[@MrIStillDontCare]

Preston I can't help but wonder what do you think of City of thieves by David Benioff, did you read it?

[@xammit7579]

I can see those parallels to your Brienne series 🙂 great work . I think you truly found a red line from George, hidden in this mess of bad dialogue.

[@arttuluttinen]

It'll be interesting to see how Brandon Sanderson tackles this when he finishes the series.

[@hhwha1]

He's been asked about this before - he said he hasn't even read past book 1, and would never want to finish it. He said it was too violent and sexual for him (he's a fairly strict LDS)

[@BasicPrinciplesGTA]

@@hhwha1 That won't stop the internet from speculating...

[@GabrielRodrigues-ro1ep]

Lol

[@Aviv704]

They would probably try to get Joe Abercrombie. But, realistically they would have to take someone in the beginning of his career like Sanderson was when he finished WoT. That's of George estate doesn't forbid posthumous completion.

[@alexarias5717]

Stop 😭😭😭

[@roseclark1685]

Ralph's cho-cho at 2:19 caught me off guard

[@breadtubereview373]

I truly believe that Walder Frey standing up on a table, and the audience getting a close up shot of him taking a very slow dump.. and then a text overlay saying "that's it. that's the whole season" would have been preferable to season 8

[@dirrdevil]

They should have gone full crazy. If it's going to be a shitshow, let it be a shitshow. Have the Millenium Falcon show up. Add some dinosaurs running around. Have a Terminator show up to protect Dany from Jon. Let Rick and Morty pop in. Have a Space Jam contest play a major plot point.

[@henkdevrjes9640]

Yes

[@MarkHalberstram]

Preston… thank you for that Ralph Wiggum clip.

[@stevefyfe1018]

Throwing duty at the wall and hoping it sticks lol

[@b.castilho4011]

I like that we all collectively gave up on seeing the rest of the books

[@made-line7627]

Speak for yourself there mate 🎭

[@stephen8342]

Felt like ignoring all the characters developments that they tried pushing (which were also unintelligible) and forcing the season 3 characters to talk to each other as if these events came out of nowhere

[@Mprator]

Might makes right and Grey Worm as head of the occupying army could have done whatever he wanted.

[@alanpennie8013]

Perhaps unwittingly D&D may be describing the universal soldier here. He acts at the command of authority transferring the responsibility for the killing he does to another. Consequently he does not seek power for himself. Obviously in practice many soldiers do seek power for themselves but what I've outlined is the germ of a consistent military morality.

[@Christopherjazzcat]

Only papa Preston could find things worth musing over in the finale

[@jasmineolivine]

the more apt analogy would be that rhythm is for middle school marching bands... or that discipline is for the unsullied.

[@jasmineolivine]

come to think of it, the unsullied basically are a matching band without the horns.

[@alexhelsel756]

Ok, Jon kills Dany in the finale because Dany decided to insert herself in the whole the death of the religions left and substituted her personal morality as the objective external morality for everyone else; denying everyone else their own ability to choose. If Jon kills Dany because she's denying everyone else freewill, in the universe of the books, doesn't it make more sense thematically that it's Bran denying the world freewill? He is the character who is actively subverting Hodor's freewill everytime he wargs Hodor; he's the one actively enslaving Hodor's mind. Plus if it's time-traveling Bran pulling all the strings in the books, isn't he already subverting the freewill of the world? Assuming the last two books are actually finished (*big assumption), do you think we're heading toward some version of a finale where Jon (or whichever primary protagonist picks up the ball from Jon if he isn't brought back, (Arya?)) kills Bran, not Dany, because human minds need to be free?

[@alanpennie8013]

God Emperor of Westeros! The only one who can kill Bran is Bran.

[@db7213]

Arya killing Bran does sound much more in line with a free will vs determinism theme, than Jon killing tyrant Dany. So good point!

[@sealy_99]

In keeping with philosophical traditions, it seems to me that in show Jon murdering Dany, he shifted from deontology to consequentialism. He no longer cared about the morality of his actions but did an immoral act of vigilantism (he no longer cared about the legitimacy of his method) in order to have the greatest end.

[@marielaneuwirth1322]

It STILL HURTS 😪😪😪😪😪😪

[@darekols]

comment left only for YT algorithm to catch up with recommending this to more people.

[@kennethbillings614]

At least D&D didn't go on to ruin starwars. Someone else got that joy.

[@cyberninjazero5659]

Ah so we've finally reached the barging part of grief

[@pnutz_2]

just depression and acceptance to go

[@jaxsetbertoncarlism8873]

The themes quote from benioff is taken outta context, he meant it about having individual episodes that stand out with their own arcs, and was justifying the fluid hard to demarcate GoT episodes

[@SerbAtheist]

It's the classic 'GOTCHA!' tactic. Find a quote you think supports your position, take it out of context, and put it as your mantra, and then scream it at the top of your lungs when someone discusses the themes of GOT, wherein it is of course immediately obvious that D&D were extensively aware of the themes of GOT, perhaps too well for their own good and the taste of the audience who always wanted something more conventional.

[@smoothhansen]

As a student of Philosophy I really enjoyed how you unraveled the motivs at play here!

[@Royal_Chief_Architect]

I broke out my red wine to watch you attempt to make sense of this.

[@chriser555]

What happened to your GOT podcast with Carmine?

[@big.steveo]

Great video and analysis. I haven't revisited the finale since the day until now

[@SwenFE]

"or they will even exists", that one hurts :(

[@Halbared]

"...Or will even exist." :D You cut me Shrek, you cut me real deep.

[@cdcdrr]

It was frustrating to watch the finale even back then. There were these germs of a good idea. Dany being a self-righteous, self-appointed arbiter of all justice and morality, and her willingness to kill everyone who stood in her path or dared to disagree, having been turned from a hero who liberates slaves and vanquishes the masters, to a fanatic who sees all dissenting opinions equally worthy of violent purging is not a bad idea. And even if the writing for the dialogue was clunky and stilted, the scenes highlighted do reinforce the idea that world must be freed of tyrants. Whether they sit on a throne, or ride dragons. Such potential, such a missed chance. Describes a lot of the last few seasons.

[@bossmode3769]

No it's a shit idea, there's million ways to end Danys story and that wasn't it.

[@alanpennie8013]

I agree. There were interesting ideas here But D&D were in such a rush to finish that nothing was properly developed.

[@TheInfectous]

@@bossmode3769 thank you arbiter of ideas for your divine judgement of that concept! I really like how you expressed zero arguments or ideas supporting or explaining your pov it really illuminates exactly what goes through your mind, nothing!

[@bossmode3769]

@@TheInfectous I didn't need to give you a suggestion numb nuts, the reaction to the finale told you everything you needed to know.

[@riro7674]

I'm glad there are people like Preston out there trying to make sense of the asoiaf franchise because a lot of it, books included, is rubbish but there's so many interesting elements to it all the same

[@Hero_Of_Old]

How is it rubbish?

[@MarilynRB]

@1:11 I AM FLOORED. OMG! But, should I be after the last few seasons? No. Preston’s comment @3:48 ties up brilliantly in response to what David said @1:11. It is things like this which makes Preston’s the best ASOIAF/GOT channel on KZbin, in my opinion.

[@davedavis252]

I really liked this

[@Leolitty]

Season 8, especially the last episode was the worst thing I have ever seen put to a screen. "Rubbish filth, smelly muck, boo!"

[@samwahab8976]

Great video mate! I agree with the essence and outcomes but I have some comments for clarification and open for correction. Utilitarianism is a type of consequentialism, the consequence is the greatest good for the greatest number. Deontology/Kantian ethics is following a specific set of rules, in this case the code of The Night Watch or Chivalry principles, etc. I think what you mean Consequentialism vs Virtue ethics: like mercy to little children, empathy, love, etc.

[@johnpotts8308]

I always took the Brienne filling out Jamie's page in the White Book was more about how history is inherently subjective and heroism even more so (she puts it as "protecting his Queen" not "defending a usurper") and that Tyrion really was just throwing arguments at Jon in the hope that something would convince him. Still, as somebody with a degree in philosophy, this was an interesting take!

[@alanpennie8013]

Love is the death of accuracy!

[@richmackin]

Okay, the Ralph Wiggum reference got a laugh.😂

[@YoutubeStandardLicense]

The philosophy of the finale.... "Fuck it"

[@PandleHandle]

Deontology = She's muh queen!

[@nononono3421]

The show didn't finish the story. Bran becomes king using "fake news" and can reshape truth thanks to his massive access to knowledge and seeing everything. He is the only one to "decide" anything because everyone else is under his manipulation. George isn't going to write a story where the end is an all-seeing sole-truth-possessing dude in charge. D&D just didn't want to go on, but there was more. Bran's the last baddie.

[@viggstable305]

wouldnt love is death of duty make sense with jon being the shield that guards the realm

[@Hana9916]

It figures that D&D, who think themes are for 8th-grade book reports, write themes with as much sense and subtlety as 8th-graders. Or, actually, more like 3rd-graders.

[@julianaharmatiuk2662]

Themes are for 8th graders, but we're gonna shoot a scene where Dany appears to have dragon wings!! How cool is that???

[@PassivesAbseits]

This "Themes are for 8th grade book reports" line explains everything... once Benioff graduates from grade school, he will actually understand, what he meant by that...

[@hamishzwain]

The ability to look past such poor writing and plot progression (especially as a fan of the mostly sharp, vivid and grounded original material) and still find SOMETHING is amazing, its also the wishful thinking ive tried AND tried to look at those last seasons with. And my god preston have you done it! Taken one of the most disappointing times, for fans of this franchise, and given it some sort of hope, maybe. all the while still highlighting why it sucked. thank you kind sir, not for your spin not even for your humour but for the hope of something more.

[@bassanimation]

I think you're spot on here. As a Dany fan, it destroyed me to see her end like this, but I understood why. The moment she decided no one, anywhere, would get choices in their life was the moment I knew she was lost. I do think the show omitted some very important things with Dany that will affect her ending. Only GRRM and time will give us the true story.

[@pplr1]

I'll point out that the actual Daenerys wouldn't utter the words the season 8 Dany did-I don't count the latter as the same character as the actual Daenerys repeatedly worked to give others more freedoms and the ability to choose. GRRM may actually be planning on having book Daenerys willingly sacrifice herself to help Jon make a magic sword with which he can deal with the white walkers in some way. EDIT: I'll add that there is evidence the earlier plans for season 8 itself were for most of King's Landing to be destroyed by wildfire rather than dragonfire but I think the writers changed it because they realized Jon wouldn't agree to an assassination over something Dany never wanted to have happen. It isn't hard to see how a fire breathing dragon being involved in a battle where wildfire is laying around could end up causing a major disaster on accident-not intentionally. This also spreads the blame around to not just Dany but Tyrion, Cersei, Tywin, Bobby B and anyone else who didn't have the wildfire moved or had more made to be added to what was already there. If you look at what is going on with Dorn, Tyrion, and Euron you'll see that D and D were willing to make big chances from the books already and since the writers dropped footage in season 7 of Cersei having a miscarriage that means they are willing to change their own plans for a season even if it would have an major impact on a character with ripple effects on others.

[@bassanimation]

​@@pplr1 All of what you've laid out here is what I believe to be wishful thinking among Dany fans, including myself. I held strong to all of these same ideas...until I started really combing the books very closely. I dont have the strength to go in depth on it all, but others around the web have done the legwork. There are very clear refutations to all the points you've made, with book text to back all of it up. Took me a few years but I see it now. Makes me really dislike the series as a whole to be honest. I am here to see it through to Dany's end though. I want to at least see GRRM's true text to see if he does it justice. I am still a Dany fan as I relate heavily to her story. I will always adore her and defend her where I can. But something I can never get behind is a lack of true human choice. I think Dany's arc is the Eden dilemma. Live in Paradise with zero choices, under God's supreme law? Or leave Eden and bear the full brunt of humanity's ugliness...but with free will. Not an easy thing to choose between...but at least we -get to choose-.

[@pplr1]

@@bassanimation Books and show have become 2 different stories. D and D repeatedly broke from the books even when they had books to go to so I have less faith now that they were following GRRM's plan than I did when season 8 1st came out. Like I said, the evidence is earlier plans for season 8 itself was for wildfire to wreck King's Landing. I'm willing to share some links with you. 2 of the most striking things to me are that the computer effects people were flat out told to make a change from wildfire to "not wildfire" for some of their effects and that the concept art for season 8 itself shows about all of the flames burning green when Jon calls a retreat. Computer effects people told to make changes: Link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aaKkdKOhad2KgMk Concept art mentioned around minutes 42 to 51 of this long but good video. kzbin.info/www/bejne/q53Ifox7ZcqKnZI Show Daenerys is frequently about making sure other people have choices. You don't need my word for it just rewatch earlier seasons. Daenerys frees slaves (giving a group of people more freedom). Then Daenerys establishes that that people can pick their own careers even if those careers make her uncomfortable (in modern times we may call that establishing "rights"). Then Daenerys starts transitioning Meereen to a form of democracy similar to a constitutional monarchy near the end of season six-even specifically telling Dario that the "people" shall pick their local leaders. I don't know where GRRM has book Daenerys going but one of the things that Preston himself thinks is a possibility is that she (perhaps at Tyrion's encouragement or manipulation) ends up wrecking King's Landing (still possibly on accident with wildfire) and then willingly sacrifices herself to help Jon with the White Walkers. I mentioned D and D made changes from the books earlier. Some of those changes were pretty major. They changed the House of the UnDying visions when in the books those were supposed to be foreshadowing (in the show they were simply to look cool since D and D didn't know how the series would end at the time they were filming them thus wouldn't know what to foreshadow). D and D also majorly changed both Euron and Tyrion's character from the books. Euron is horrifyingly evil and wants to be King of the Ashes in a way. Book Tyrion may actually want King's Landing to burn out of revenge for the ingratitude he felt he was shown after having successfully beating Stannis's invasion. Book Tyrion also wants to rape and murder Cersei as a reward for helping Daenerys (do you think show Tyrion would want that?) And the book and show situations for Dorn are very different. All of what I mentioned in the last paragraph was D and D breaking from the books while they had books to use. Proof has already been provided that plans were for Cersei to have a miscarriage in season 7 but that scene was cut. That kind of a change would have a major impact on Cersei as well as ripple effects on people she spoke with including Tyrion, Euron, and Jamie. Thus D and D not only break from the books but are willing to make notable changes from their own earlier plans.

[@deLumren]

I think DB's line could be interpreted in the sense that themes are organically derived from the finished story, not the other way around. An author considers characters, questions, and situations. Once the story is complete, its theme could be defined even by an eighth-grader. Let's say you want to write a detective story about a jealous guy killing his ex's new boyfriend when an unexpected opportunity comes up to do so without attracting attention. And then a book critic reviews your book and states that it "explores the theme of possessive love and how it erodes moral compass". Obviously, there are many approaches to crafting a story, it's just that the theme isn't always in the author's mind (unless he's writing in a state with an official propaganda censuring agency). Also, Greyworm couldn't slice Tyrion's throat in one sleek movement because of his short height. :p

[@alanpennie8013]

Grey Worm. "Tyrion would you mind standing on that chair..."

[@littlebluewolfie]

While I really appreciate your musings, they wreck even the most complainant of interpretations. If goodness comes down to choice, it seems kind of anathema that the new king is someone who "does not want things" anymore. He is bound to a prewritten future, so ultimately we end up with bleak determinism in a godless world.

[@Zhohan-]

I think that might help explain how fucking vapid and empty the finale feels.

[@WorthlessWinner]

8:30 throwing doody

[@althesilly]

Machiavelli never said the ends justify the means.

[@alanpennie8013]

What he said ( and it is very shocking given when he lived) is that Christian ethics are incompatible with exercising political authority.

[@julianaharmatiuk2662]

Thank you for being brave enough to rewatch this episode and make sense of it for us. You're very courageous

[@zacrusk5274]

Lol

[@Obyvvatel]

Isn't what you call objective morality, eg the morality coming from a religious code/a monarchy, actually subjective morality, except one that comes from only 1 subjective source with disregard to all others? What I'm saying is objective morality would be one that exists outside of appraisals of individuals and is intrinsic to the action and the state of the universe itself. Eg, if we found the universe had a morality score that it calculates for all actions and we could peek around the curtain and see that score, only that would be objective morality.

[@seifer918]

20:08 The book /show is about Existentialism. Oh, by the way, the book might not exist.

[@Willz828]

can you please do a video on the sparrow movement and the high sparrow? it HAS to be different than the show based on the setup

[@Freakivo]

I like that idea. And your effort to find something good the finale 😄 But how does Bran as king fit in? I guess as a all seeing being, he won’t give the people so much choice to choose.

[@newpgaston6891]

The "Love is the death of duty" line can be interpreted in a different way; Jon's current duty is to follow Dany, and that duty is strengthened by their love, yes... But Tyrion is trying to turn Jon against Dany, even to get him to kill her, by saying that he's always done the right thing, and that killing Dany is the right thing because she's evil. But that's when love comes in the way of duty. Because Jon is conflicted (it's not an easy choice to make, without knowing where it leads, and where NOT taking the choice leads), and on top of that, love may blurry his thoughts... So if objectively his duty is to kill Dany (because she's evil and needs to die), then his love for her might make this more difficult, i.e. love is the death of duty. While he was willing to serve her, love really didn't change much, he would serve her no matter what. But now that he's considering something else, love acts against it.

[@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin]

The problem with this interpretation, that is Duty=killing Dany;Love=Love for Dany, is that "Duty is the death of Love" line comes right after it. Tyrion immediately criticizes duty as being cold and uncaring. There is no salvaging the scene unfortunately.

[@howardwilde6199]

I was thinking love for Dany is the death of Jon's duty to the realm. But realistically they just wanted to squeeze that line in there and probably never thought about it.

[@Whosaskin]

the thing that bothers me is that the finale turns her evil when we spent the whole show and the whole books, trying to do what's right, hell, she was there to fight against the undead on Jon's behalf, and still she gets dropped as soon as she's no longer useful. In a show that dealt so much with morality, that could have been a statement on how we create our own monsters, had the writers been smarter that is.

[@edmann1820]

There's a sizeable amount of people who saw it coming. I'm one. Dany kills a lot of people. Some who are completely innocent. I'm talking about the books. Is that a good person? A hero?

[@loriannwhite8384]

@@edmann1820 Honest question, Who? In the books, didn’t kill innocent people?

[@JasmineBoothe1]

@@edmann1820 Define “completely innocent”

[@edmann1820]

@@loriannwhite8384 Remember the innocent children who were crucified on the way to Mereen. She takes 169 of the wise masters or whatever they're called and crucifies them as justice. No investigation about who exactly was responsible. Just string them up. That's pretty sadistic and it's not justice. For example, if a black man robbed your house and you pointed out the wrong man to the police just because he was black we'd call that racist. For Dany that would be justice. It's an eye for an eye type justice. It doesn't matter whose eye just as long as someone gets punished. Personally I think a more just statement is two wrongs don't make a right. Also the people in slavers bay practicing slavery are not breaking any laws of their own society. In their society owning slaves is normal. Now, we as modern people not from a slave owning society can say how wrong it is, but, should the punishment for doing what is normal in their society be punished with death, war, destruction and plague? It's an interesting moral dilemma. Like Preston was talking about; do the ends justify the means? Stalin thought so. So did Hitler. For that matter so do most US presidents. But does that make it just?

[@edmann1820]

@@loriannwhite8384 Sorry I know that was long but just one question. Which other characters in the entire series would string up 169 random people. Would Ned have done it? He'd be swinging the sword 169 times

[@SquishyEggo]

Preston trying to bring out themes in the final episode of Game of Thrones is like trying to transmute gold with a child's Papier-mâché volcano

[@thegingerwon2795]

The Philosophy was: We have Star Wars to get to and pockets filled with cash. byyyyeeeeeeeeeee

[@BiggestCorvid]

All very good and my coworkers are listening to sandkings so heyyyyy

[@SapphireSolstice67]

Jaime and Brieene talk about the white book too

[@PandleHandle]

8:22 B I G O O F !

[@Rahim.ali80]

When I knew the show became trash is when a show that's supposed to be a show about other worldly beings & plots on top of plots under plots is when it can be digested in bars & lounges in one taking. No way a show adopted from books that has like 20 characters with each having their own plots & storyline can be digested in one sitting in a loud bar while knocking back beers & shots. Shameful shit straight up shameful shit

[@warholcow]

Great video!