The Greatest Twist In Video Game History Is A Lie

[@maxastro]

My favorite tidbit about this series is that after MGS2 everyone was desperate to know who the Patriots were. And then, instead of that, we got MGS3, a prequel set before even the first game that had nothing to do with the Patriots at all. People were super upset that they would have to wait until MGS4 to find out who the Patriots were. And then, when MGS4 came out, it was revealed that the characters in MGS3 were, in fact, the Patriots and the game had told us basically everything about them, just without telling us that's what they were. Hideo Kojima is a master troll.

[@MrMariosonicman]

its been so long since I played those two games. where the patriots the bossess or someone else in MGS3?

[@maxastro]

@@MrMariosonicman Nearly every character who survived MSG3 would go on to become a founding member of the Patriots. Major Zero, Naked Snake, Eva, Para-Medic, Revolver Ocelot, and Sigint were all either founding or early-recruited members.

[@moxxiiscarlett7141]

​@@MrMariosonicman hope you didn't like Para-Medic

[@brotbrotsen1100]

I remember seeing a dude online back way before MGS4 came out who made a theory about it and called litterally everything, was like he could see right into kojimas head. Coolest thing was he even called that you play as big boss and not snake in MGS 3 which wasn't obvious before release, people even thought it is a ridiculous idea. But man it was crazy seeing so much stuff he said come true.

[@SuperVALERock]

@@brotbrotsen1100 That's insane! Props to that guy

[@UltravioletNomad]

Snake said "make your own name" and this man chose to become his own edgy robot ninja OC. You know what, valid, you go king.

[@FelisImpurrator]

Based

[@korvidkillz]

If that aint the trans experience idk what is

[@JimmehRulez]

Fr

[@MxPokirby]

@@korvidkillz From transmasc to transmech

[@zettovii1367]

​@@thatitalianlameguy2235 He got trans groomed

[@lman0089]

Imagine some kid named Jack played Ghost Babel and just thought the game was speaking directly to him and only after watching this video realized what actually happened

[@redpup112]

As someone who's name is Jack and forgot Raiden's actual name was Jack before watching this video, I sorta kinda experienced this

[@Deathlygunn]

Similar thing, but my Dad's name is David, so when I watched him play through the original MGS and Snake said "Call me David" I just assumed the game somehow knew your name.

[@Elratauru]

Every copy of Metal Gear Ghost Babel is personalized???

[@jenny_azoth]

bluhhhh

[@piergiorgiocaroli9201]

Guess i'm happy that my name's Piergiorgio

[@magnificmango336]

I guarantee Kojima happened to stop by the office of the Ghost Babel devs, saw the postgame and was like “hey, can you name the person doing the training Jack? No reason, just because.”

[@TheGreatBackUpVIDEOS]

I want this to be true SO bad

[@alicevioleta3184]

iirc, kojima worked on GB

[@luiszuniga2859]

Devs: we want the truth! Kojima: You can't handle the truth!

[@FangTehWolf]

Thats probably exactly what happened. Its like for Marvel movies, James Gunn asked the Russo brothers to include a kiss between Star Lord and Gamora to set up his guardians 3 stuff.

[@ridgedaddy]

"Kojima also stated he worked on developing the game with the intent of not having it seem "dumb" to players who have already played Metal Gear Solid." - Metal Gear Wiki

[@HotSauceBear]

I recall MGS2 acknowledges Ghost Babel, because when the Colonel’s AI is going haywire it mentions Galuade, implying that all of Ghost Babel was a simulation for Raiden, not just the bonus missions at the end.

[@CCDaDon15]

It does!

[@r3gret2079]

You sonnuva bitch you're right! Holy macaroly

[@Nzargnalphabet]

Wtf is the end bit

[@CCDaDon15]

@@Nzargnalphabet It's revealed that the character you play that is controlling Snake in the simulation is named Jack, implying it is Raiden. It also came out a year before MGS2

[@Nzargnalphabet]

@@CCDaDon15 of the video, not the game

[@AmeHart]

Summary: New recruit Jack did VR training as Solid Snake and was gaslit by the Patriots to make him into a supersoldier. During his time in the training and beginning ops, he took on Snake's name as a way for the Patriots to continually cover the tracks of who the "real snake" is. He then takes on the name Raiden. During the course of MGS2 Jack-Now-Raiden learns the dark truth about the Patriots and how he was gaslit, misled, and intentionally misdirected. His identity is in conflict because he is told conflicting information about who he is and what his role is. He has memories, but has no idea if they're his. He is then told by Solid Snake (Dave) that his past and memories are not absolute truths. There's no such thing as absolute truths. Everything is subjective. But even so, those experiences still shape you to be who you are. You can be who you set out to be, even if who you were was manufactured. You always have choice. And people will try to exploit that. TLDR: Raiden is Shadow the Hedgehog

[@noblesseoblige319]

The hell is Dave

[@12whufffff]

that last sentence was a slap in the face

[@Lynxtek]

why would you say something so controversial yet so true

[@Diphenhydra]

I don’t know anything about what you’re talking about, but I find it weird that Tom Brady somehow fits into this story.

[@JonDundas10]

Lmao dambb

[@bagetblue2043]

Gamechamp causally causing an entire fan base to play all of the non cannon games to check for a single line of dialogue was not a thing I thought was going to happen today

[@GamingintheAM0801]

Ghost Babel may be non-canon, but I think it's the best Metal Gear game, no exaggeration.

[@johnfkennedyinanopentopcar8976]

Cope

[@SupermewX300]

@@GamingintheAM0801 It can't be, Rising exists.

[@notNajimi]

@@johnfkennedyinanopentopcar8976 what

[@neepha7324]

​@@SupermewX300 Rising's just okay I'm sorry but I'd rather just play an MGS game for the dumb humor or a DMC game for hack n slash gameplay

[@elementgermanium]

I love that Raiden’s Wikipedia page is already being edited and the video’s barely over

[@Genesukt64]

God I fucking love Wikipedia admins LMAO

[@noblesseoblige319]

Wait really???

[@Stardust51]

Just checked and you're right. That was quick lol

[@Algox]

Yeah lmfao

[@coleminer8847]

When one of you favorite youtubers ends up changing wikipedia on complete accident

[@BetterCaulipowerSall-vq9yn]

"I am not crazy! I know Raiden showed up in Ghost Babel! I knew it was April. One before Solid 2. As if I could ever make such a mistake. Never. Never! I just - I just couldn't prove it. He - he covered his tracks, he got those idiots on the internet to lie for him. You think this is something? You think this is bad? This? This chicanery? He's done worse. Those cutscenes! Are you telling me that a man just happens to talk like that? No! He orchestrated it! Raiden! He hid is existence! And I exposed him! And I shouldn't have. I took him into my own video! What was I thinking? He'll never change. He'll never change! Ever since I was 9, always the same! Couldn't keep my hands out of the chronological order of games! But not our Raiden! Couldn't be precious Raiden! Stealing them blind! And he gets to be have an incorrect wikipedia page!? What a sick joke! I should've stopped him when I had the chance! And you - you have to stop him!" -Gamechamp3000

[@marvelsandals4228]

I approve, although perhaps Gamechamp should be ranting about Kojima since he ORCHESTRATED all of this

[@theunknownuser9609]

r/okbuddynanomachines

[@nouche]

You are an absolute genius.

[@iantaakalla8180]

r/okbuddynanomachicanery

[@mire4794]

Your name checks out.

[@Ronin11111111]

I love that big reveal at 6:40 is followed up by "Rank:Terrible"

[@migueeeelet]

no kills, no alerts, no nothing... get outta here

[@Obbels]

See above 👆

[@bapho-p]

I think this kind of madness is exactly what they wanted out of us tbh

[@TheFloodFourm]

100% the entire point of the game. A lot of art leaves you asking questions like Joel from the Last of Us. MGS2 leaves you asking about the events that transpired in the first place, and more importantly, what of it even matters.

[@GamingintheAM0801]

​@Flood Which is why I was never a fan of MGS4 coming along and just telling us what was real and what wasn't. It defeated the point. I get that MGS4 was only made due to fan request, but it stands as a prime example of why fans shouldn't be allowed to dictate the direction of a franchise against it's creator's wishes.

[@lpfan4491]

@@GamingintheAM0801 And even then, they took the absolute least interessting way possible to lock in the truth. It's the same "Nanomachines, son" that Revengence did later, except with the style and satisfaction of a wet noodle. (In general, there seems to be a weird kind of trinity of MG-styles. The serious story, the supernatural intrigue and the off the walls-insanity. The closer it goes away from focussing on either of these three extremes and towards a middlepoint, the more the stories suffers and become a muddied mess.)

[@dopey473]

​@@TheFloodFourm I think I saw a vid once that said that the game represents subjectivity of modern reality. Where everything including the game can be interpreted differently by anyone.

[@WoobertAIO]

@@lpfan4491 I think the "Nanomachines, son" was partially just mocking MGS4 for explaining everything with nanomachines.

[@matthewtrujillo7228]

This story is actually pretty neat when taking in the whole misinformation theme of MGS2. The fact that the real information was always there just obfuscated and hidden in a spot no one was likely to look for is really neat since no one knew what it meant and the marketing didn't draw attention to it. Like in real life the real info was there but the person distributing the info kept it under wraps and drew our attention to the narrative they wanted.

[@thechugg4372]

You want even more misinformation? This entire video is actual misinformation that modifies the truth, as at this point there was already a character named Jack, Big Boss, the main antagonist of the series. I hope this video doesn't spread even MORE misinformation, but honestly, Kojima warned us, people will get fooled by this.

[@neverpass04]

Kojima really is a genius

[@jjtheenton]

He was ahead of the curve.

[@ZorrotheArtist]

Kojima is the ultimate troll.

[@DavidGonzoMusic]

It makes sense that he's called Jack and not Raiden in Ghost Babel. He doesn't even receive that codename until he's already infiltrated the Big Shell and AI Campbell decides to change his codename from Snake to Raiden.

[@marvelsandals4228]

Which is a fascinating idea tbh. Imagine that you are given a name by your superior officer that you are required to go by in all communications during your mission...then 5 minutes into the mission they just go "actually, I'm going to rename you. From now on your name is Frank. Ok?" Like at any moment your NAME, your identity, can just be taken away and replaced like it was nothing. That sets you up to have some existential dread. Who am I? Do I even have a name? Does it matter? Then, after all that, Rose just outs you as "Jack," violating their protocol about using a code name. His first name is literally Jack and now all of their elaborate efforts to hide the truth are wasted lol

[@RustedBuddy5192]

@@marvelsandals4228 That still confuses me though. Cause Rose was an AI at that point so they outed themselves. But we see the pay off of The hind D from MGS1 being The Gurlukovich soldiers raiding the marine ship THEN the plant with Ocelot. So there has to be some things that DID happen unless you want to say the MG1, MG2, MGS1, and MGS3 ALL never happened. Which is true since its a videogame series of course. But we're talking about in universe. Or I guess in this instance its "in simulation"? Geez Did Kojima predict the fixation on multiverses in modern day media too? Because thats like saying "What if this simulation WAS real and separate from what you know?"

[@shoedonym9336]

​@@RustedBuddy5192Rose intentionally makes that "mistake" in order to create a false sense of intimacy with Raiden and make him easier to control

[@selemanecu]

@@RustedBuddy5192 remember you are sent on mission with faulty intel (false information) and get betrayed in every single Game! So it's less about the Simulation being real or not but the player characters and the player themselves having to come to the conclusion that they will never know the full truth!

[@MKDumas1981]

​@@marvelsandals4228: To be fair, I have changed the codenames of some of my soldiers in Portable Ops.

[@margar2712]

something i noticed recently is that the game opens with snake saying "hudson river 2 years ago" as if immediately disproving his death before you even meet plisken. But every player seems to forget about it by the time the tanker mission finishes.

[@dbstop9194]

OMFG I just realized this 22 years later.

[@kylemelendez358]

Holy shit you just blew my mind

[@Ryushikaze]

Ghost Babel was not Raiden's first appearance. It was his first mention. Dilemma avoided.

[@nouche]

I guess the dilemma still technically stands because it’s non-canon.

[@jebuzjaime]

​@@noucheNo, the dilemma doesn't exist. It's his first mention even if it isn't in the canonical plot of the main series games. Just how Togepi and Ho-oh first appeared in the anime, before they even had canonical games. It's relative to real world mentions, not to in game continuity.

[@nouche]

@@jebuzjaime : It makes sense but then the thing is also that we can’t absolutely be sure it was Raiden who was mentioned in Ghost Babel. It’s very likely… but we’ll never exactly know if they really had him in mind at the time, or not. So the example of Pokémon isn’t the best because those were clearly intended to be new Pokémon, and were then used in games with a similar design and the same names. This Jack thing was just a bottle toss in the sea with the one first name, and it’s quite a common one. Like an open thread, to be used or not. Maybe it’s MGS2 that _retroactively_ chose to make Ghost Babel a first appearance when Raiden was created, by naming him Jack. It would then make it true, but not originally unintended/planned, making it a different scenario than that of Pokémon. Or they really just had him in mind all along, we don’t know. Heck, even Big Boss’s name is also Jack!

[@StationSquare.]

@@nouche Erm, ackshually his real name is John and Jack is just an alias…🤓

[@sinistertwister686]

GIGABRAIN MOVE

[@zachgamemaster3329]

"The Metal Gear series isn't that confusing." The history of one Metal Gear character:

[@Cappuccino_Rabbit]

"WHY IS THE LORE SO CONFUSING?!" "Nanomachines, son"

[@plugshirt1762]

Bruh this isn't half as confusing as figuring out what the hell ocelot is doing at any given moment.

[@KasumiRINA]

@@ohmannotaga and that is EXACTLY what makes him so hard to figure... as in, to know what he's at you need to know EVERYTHING.

[@zyxluz4645]

*ONE TENTH of the history of one Metal Gear character

[@troytheboy1985]

@@zyxluz4645 and the other half is the boss and then 25% is her will

[@saniakshay12]

The lie is the friends we made along the way

[@gunsandroses896]

Deeeeeeeeeeep

[@cravonomire9971]

Yep

[@EnemyToad]

☹️

[@Videogamer9201]

What complicates this even further is that Raiden was mentioned in the MGS2 Manual. If one would have read tbe manual, the twist would have been revaled.

[@willyeeton4390]

Something something theming The twist wasn't even fully hidden or suppressed, the truth was just kept in a space that most people wouldn't look. Those that would wouldn't put the mystery together or wouldn't be able to communicate their findings well enough to matter. The natural tendency towards convenient half-truths, y'know?

[@kirkwright8954]

This actually makes a ton of sense. I always assumed that when they say Raiden played a simulation recreating the Shadow Moses incident, that it was just the first mgs he played, but Ghost Babel actually IS the recreated shadow Moses simulation! Perfect

[@Akay4444444444444444]

Raiden makes direct reference to knowing elements of the actual Shadow Moses, especially something as obvious as the Cyborg Ninja and Mr. X. He also makes direct reference to one of the VR Missions in Integral/VR Missions on his sniper training. The Colonel also makes reference to MG1 and GB when breaking down near the end. MGS4 also references GB as having happened. I always interpreted it as the events depicted in MG1, 2, Solid, and GB happened in universe, but not as shown, and what we play are doctored VR recreations the Patriots made to train Jack/Raiden. Explain away any continuity errors by making the games themselves unreliable narrators.

[@lorscarbonferrite6964]

There are so many interlocking layers to this that even if all of this wasn't planned by Kojima, it's exactly the type of thing he'd want to plan.

[@angelotti2058]

This actually makes sense if you think about the dialog in MGS2 where raiden says he's completed many virtual missions before simulanting solid snake.

[@Vanity0666]

The VR Missions on PS1 is that

[@zs4580]

​@@Vanity0666lol maybe, maybe not. The game obviously doesn't mention a specific console. And the PlayStation VR missions don't call you jack at the end, how can you just easily dismiss them like that

[@Vanity0666]

@@zs4580 VR Missions, Ghost Babel, and Twin Snakes are the simulation missions leading up to Raiden's first actual real world op Snake doesn't use VR, his training is performed under the simulation invasions of Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land

[@KasumiRINA]

@@Vanity0666 Snake absolutely talks about VR training in some codec calls in Metal Gear Solid. IIRC those calls only say that if you go through them, but it means of course, that the game actually plays it that the training missions are done in-universe by Solid and not by you as a player.

[@Vanity0666]

@@KasumiRINA he says that VR training exists but that its worthless and the simulations can never match up to the real deal, which ends up being ironic because he himself is a simulation of Big Boss

[@MallowyGoodness]

In reality Raiden's first appearance is Revengeance, as denoted by him confirming his self actualization through the lyrics "I am standing here".

[@MallowyGoodness]

Anyway clearly Ghost Babel actually is canon by being non-canon canonically in-universe as real fake "what-if" scenarios designed to train the next not-snake

[@chaotickid]

What

[@ValiareTheForsaken01]

​@@MallowyGoodnessI think I'm too in-tune with Metal Gear's themes and narratives because I perfectly understood that.

[@TheMetroidblade]

@@ValiareTheForsaken01 yeah im a kingdom hearts fan that keeps ending up in mgs videos and i understood it perfectly. seems like you just need a primer in japanese wacked outed ness.

[@kendonl.taylor5111]

​@@MallowyGoodnessAre you saying Metal Gear Ghost Babel is canon?

[@Zwyrx_Hgqfyggz]

Tonight on VG Myths, GameChamp does not answer a video game myth but turns into matpat and the agonising transition causes her to go on an insane rant about the game boy colour and how Konami makes the number 4 say a name before it was in 2

[@rlocks7253]

​@@turkish8969 she's Transfem, and she uses she/her pronouns I believe

[@CallMeDoc_]

@Rlocks she / they, last I checked. mightve swapped more recently tho EDIT: thanks to Baqly, gamechamp is using She/Her. last I had checked was at least 6 months.

[@rlocks7253]

@@CallMeDoc_ ah, apologies, forgot exactly so was going with what I remember!

[@baqly]

@@CallMeDoc_ looking at her recent streams she has a banner that says she her pronouns, so she is going by she her!

[@MxPokirby]

@@turkish8969 What sounds do genders make?

[@MxPokirby]

Reminds me of how Captain Falcon "technically" first appeared in the original snes game, even though I'm pretty sure you never actually see him in-game; instead just as a shadow through the cockpit's window.

[@kyoai]

He was mentioned and depicted in the manual, which also had a comic introducing the world of F-Zero.

[@divineterabyte5181]

When Kojima repeatedly hinted that "you are Raiden, Raiden is you", i think he also was implying the mental break that ensues

[@rayojordan2838]

This is all about the art of story telling about the psyche!!! Ego - Super Ego - I.D. In biblical lore rabbis believe that Jesus Lucifer Satan Are all the same Person… Jesus would be the higher self = Ego Satan being the Lower Self = Super Ego Lucifer being the I.D. Entity = Identity- an idea 💡

[@dustin202]

You must assume the role of Raiden, BECOME RAIDEN!

[@RemiAutor]

Raiden's actual first appearance is in Metal Gear Solid 4. The guy in MGS2 wasn't Raiden yet. He was just Jack, using the code name Raiden. In MGS4 he was truly Raiden, at that point.

[@pokkiheart]

not to be confused with raikov. I love this series.

[@ThuglasElBosso]

Fucking cringe. What, Snake wasn't Solid Snake until he beat Big Boss?

[@ravenrealm718]

Until part-way through 4 where he sort of ditches the Raiden name to call himself Lightning before finally coming to terms with his name being Jack at the end, only to then pick up the name Raiden again in Revengeance before once again dropping back to Jack right before fighting Monsoon... Metal Gear truly is a series of all time

[@thebiolibrary5572]

@@ravenrealm718 He drops back to Jack "the ripper" specifically when Sam and Monsoon call him out for being a psycho-murderer, so he decides to be a psycho-murderer to kill Monsoon but then everybody just calls him Jack as in Jack because Jack is his real name

[@clashmanthethird]

This was the moment Jack became Heisenberg

[@CarissaNomadic]

Metal Gear's biggest strength is screwing with your mind, I swear

[@theauberman]

That's just every Hideo Kojima game/franchise

[@soupgirl1871]

Honestly that is the best part of the games at this point. A rollecoaster of fucking with the fanbase that somehow makes sense

[@thecosmic8248]

Quote from the Raiden Wikipedia page presumably entered literally less than an hour ago as of writing… “Although Raiden made his first appearance in Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty, a post-credits dialogue at the end of the VR training mode in Metal Gear Solid: Ghost Babel implies that the player is actually Raiden, undergoing his training. There is debate over this appearance’s canonicity due to the game itself being non-canon. It is possible that the VR training mode is canon, while the main game is not.”

[@GamingintheAM0801]

It's always weird seeing Metal Gear fans get so hung up on canon, because (at least prior to MGS4) the games themselves made it pretty clear that the canon didn't really matter, and that it also didn't even really *exist.* When MGS2 refers to Raiden's "VR training," they're referring to all the previous games as a whole. Like, when the Colonel is explaining the new controls for the sniper rifle, he says that it's "been changed slightly from the VR training," because the controls have literally changed since the last game. It even includes the non-canon entries, as evidenced by the A.I. Colonel quoting lines from Ghost Babel and VR Missions when he starts to go haywire. The implication of everything is that the prior games may or may not be VR missions in and of themselves, and the uncertainty of what's real and what isn't was an intentional part of what MGS2 was trying to do. And honestly, while I've never fully subscribed to the "it's all VR training" theory, I do think it's kind of a shame that MGS4 retconned that reading of the game. If MGS2 had been the canonical endpoint of the timeline like Kojima originally wanted, it would have left some really interesting discussions to this day. But no, fans just *had* to know the identity of the Patriots even though it's just the MGS version of the Illuminati and so knowing who they are defeats the point. 🤷‍♂️

[@Phantom-kc9ly]

​@@GamingintheAM0801 not to mention its highly likely the big boss we see and play as in 3 and Peace Walker was Venom experiencing his brainwashing over the events that happened.

[@lpfan4491]

@@Phantom-kc9ly "Snake, you can't do that! The future will be changed, you'll create a time paradox!"

[@blkguy3rd]

@@GamingintheAM0801 i wonder if the only reason they establish what was and wasnt canon was so you would know where all the callbacks in 4 come from. almost like a "these are the only games that matter to get the most out of this game" sort of way

[@mynameisjohnjackajoe]

@@GamingintheAM0801 You can consider whatever you want as part of the main story for yourself but what matters in the end is what the original creator and author considers to be canon and Kojima was always pretty clear that only the games he directed are part of it. That doesn't mean that the other games suck or don't necessarily fit into the overall story. It's just Kojimas story and vision, so while talking about the series, the story, characters, it's themes etc. it's important to keep that in mind. That's why mgs fans "get so hung up on canon". Even Kojima himself wants to make the difference clear between the "A Hideo Kojima Games" and the ones where he was maybe at most a producer.

[@Zinkolo]

This is a very subtle and hidden Easter egg gets unlikely that most people would even notice. Even those who played this game and saw that reference wouldn't know that they were being deceived by the trailers

[@ravenrealm718]

Let's not forget that when the AI Colonel is going crazy because of GW corrupting, he does mention Galuade. Also, in MGS4, the description of the FiveSeven handgun mentions that it was used by Snake when he infiltrated Galuade... Perhaps the lie was about the canonicity (or lack thereof) of Ghost Babel...

[@Aahz321]

im kind of curious if this little tid bit of info is why Ghost Babble is referenced in the "glitched" codecs and also credited in the ....well credits. What if the entire game, not just the special missions is Jack's training. Trying to make a scenario similar to something Snake would encounter, only realizing that the S3 plan wouldnt work entirely unless they recreated Shadow Moses in particular. The Glitched Colonel would know of Jack's original training, which would explain why it references them *To Jack* and he would even understand the referance even if we don't. So Ghost Babble may not be cannon to the MGS story but it is canon to Jack's Story.

[@segadoeswhatnintendont]

Babble? Minor spelling mistake, you're wrong, i win

[@Gentlemenhugs]

Well shit. Raiden's first on -screen appearance has him wearing a mask and speaking in a tone closer to Snake's voice AND the Colonel even calls him Snake before giving him the new codename Raiden. The Whiny boi we love didn't show that side of himself until after being given the new identity of Raiden. It's like a transition from Ghost Babel into Sons of Liberty right there in the game. The Colonel even talks about the VR missions in that scene

[@FailcopterWes]

The complete breakdown and back and forth between what the plot and reality even is is the most Metal Gear Solid 2 thing to do in a video essay involving Metal Gear Solid 2.

[@UnknownUser-ow5zb]

Wow that really was a 3 minute fun fact turned into a 22 minute mental breakdown about an issue that only exists if you want absolute binaries.

[@bluefrog5056]

Imagine some kid actually named Jack getting extremely confused at that ending cutscene

[@emberthefox4951]

I'm so used to madness at this point that I managed to follow along during this entire descent into madness.

[@jeeBisOkay]

This kind of psychotic theorizing is commonplace in other games I like so it's pretty easy to understand lol

[@johncameron1935]

That entire legend of zelda segment was so entirely on point. Though I wish there'd been reference to Link among the rest of the clutter.

[@vogonp4287]

This whole video is like watching a person slowly be driven to madness by the odd nature of the Metal Gear series.

[@HBMmaster]

the last sentence of this video before the patreon credits is such a power move

[@calvinwithak7514]

KZbinrs who make video essays on crazy topics enjoy watching KZbinrs who make video essays on crazy topics. Huh, who would have thought?

[@KyrieFortune]

yo, it's the W guy

[@nouche]

jan Misali’s here, hiiiiii! I just recently discovered that I do enjoy many of the videos that you make, so cool you watch Gamechamp too!

[@VanguardRaven]

Also remember that Raiden's codename was always Snake up until the beginning of the Plant chapter, where AI Campbell changed it to Raiden to not confuse him with the "Snake" that infiltrated the big shell before Raiden did.

[@joelcraig9803]

I'm pretty sure that in Super Smash brothers ultimate its Venom Snake going through VR training to become Link.

[@Zidanesco]

I love that, after the halfway point, the video was "Gamechamp loses her mind for 10 minutes straight"

[@XDWX]

"her"?

[@Istaly17]

​@@XDWXthat kept confusing me to the narrator refered to herself as she

[@mr.jitterspam9552]

​@@Istaly17they use female pronouns

[@gamerskingdom4897]

​@Istaly17 there a girls I don't get the confusion

[@rattvisa]

Raiden’s first apperence is in a quantum superposition of ghost babel and sons of liberty

[@Kratosauron0]

Is Ghost Babel non-canon in that the events didn't actually take place and were just a simulation? Or non-canon in that everything in the game didn't take place, including Jack doing the VR missions? For that matter, weren't there VR missions in Metal Gear Solid 1s bonus disks? The one part of Integral? What if you're playing as Raiden in those VR missions and not Snake? What if this entire time you have been playing as Raiden but in VR, and all of MGS1 was a VR mission????????

[@Shantae1188]

Everything in the game didn’t take place.

[@ultralight9625]

Simple everytime you where playing as both solid snake completing the real mission and jack completing the VR recreations of those real mission. Aka schrödinger's snake.

[@NeO_SaNdMaN4040]

This is kinda the whole idea behind MGS2. Too bad people didn’t realize it then, but nowadays? Its one of the greatest games in terms of theming.

[@pokkiheart]

"No Ghost Babel was not a VR mission unless you subscribe to the idea Raiden was playing a VR mission as himself playing a VR mission and get out of my house!"

[@GamingintheAM0801]

Congratulations, you just realized the entire point of MGS2's story. If you bother to listen to any of the optional Codec calls, the Colonel basically slaps us in the face with "the last game was all VR."

[@TheWandererTravelVlogs]

I’m guessing they had a rough idea of what the story was going to be for MGS2, due to the ending of Ghost Babel and also, the video game, Metal Gear Solid VR missions, where, when you beat the game, you are rewarded with a “confidential” image, schematics for Metal Gear Ray. Also in that same game, the area where you take photos of Naomi and Mei Ling, resembles the area on Arsenal Gear where you fight all the Rays.

[@titanic_monarch796]

I absolutely love the idea that the entirety of Ghost Babel was part of Raiden's VR training.

[@Paperpup]

Given that "Jack" can also be a name for Big Boss, who would likely be going through rehabilitation after the events of Metal Gear 2, You could also argue that Ghost Babel doesn't star Raiden at all.

[@marvelsandals4228]

Oh my god, you're right. How the hell did I forget that Big Boss' name was also Jack? I suppose his name probably wasn't confirmed until Metal Gear Solid 3, so in truth they named Raiden first, then later decided to give Big Boss the same name, but still, it is fascinating that they share the same name. Big Boss and Snake share the same genes (sort of), but Big Boss and Raiden share the same name (again, sort of). Who is the protagonist of Ghost Babel? Jack. That fact doesn't answer the question, it just opens up more questions. Which Jack? Raiden? Big Boss? Or some OTHER character named Jack? This franchise is madness

[@craggylotus]

@@marvelsandals4228 Wasn't Raiden raised by Solidus (at least a child soldier for him)? It's possible Solidus named the kid after his "dad".

[@wintermute8315]

Why would an ageing Big Boss be put through VR simulations of the soldier that was cloned from him? Who is putting him through these simulations? Makes no sense. It's Raiden.

[@awesomegaymer5786]

​@@wintermute8315we crossed a line of what makes sense a long time ago.

[@nouche]

@@wintermute8315: It does make no sense but hey, he’s playing video games cuz he’s proud of his big boy! Yes, like we both said. Makes no sense. That’s just the beauty of non-canon parallel universes. Remember you have to go through a stupid Donkey Kong minigame to get that line of dialogue to even show up~

[@roabino5723]

So princess peach wasn’t in another castle, those bastards

[@alsokyle]

Sometime before MGS2's release (i forget how long, it was such a long time ago), Official Playstation 2 Magazine UK had a huge reveal about Raiden. It was actually pretty cool - the several pages of info were sealed at the outer edge in a sort of perforated cardboard security thing - you had to tear it away to get into the pages about Raiden. No other mention of him anywhere else in the magazine - just lots of talk about "it's a huge spoiler, so don't open it unless you wanna know." And, like, it wasn't a leak or something, it was clear that preview was sanctioned. I actually didn't know until watching this video that it was considered completely new to players that Raiden was the main character. I've been trying to google around and figure out exactly which issue of the magazine it was but i'm coming up empty.

[@MixMasterLar]

I've heard before that they didn't particularly try to hide it for the PAL release of the game since it was already in two regions and the internet existed. Not sure how true that really is, though

[@alsokyle]

@@MixMasterLar That's probably true - it certainly makes a lot of sense! I forgot that PAL regions used to get games so much later.

[@mayanightstar]

This vid has the kind of manic energy I live for. "Who-even-knows-ish-ness" is a great new word

[@CheddarBayBaby]

Even as someone who beat Ghost Babel my mind is absolutely blown

[@Kyanite_45]

I think I already got completely lost at the mere MENTION of Ghost Babel. The fact that it exists in the first place already fried my brain, not even to mention the fact that Jack is somehow in... YEAH, I AM SO CONFUSED.

[@totalhydration5240]

would that make the noncanon Ghost Babel to canonically be Raiden's VR Mission training when he was a child? he's always been fed information that are somewhat incorrect or censored, so could the story of Ghost Babel be written off as a sort of alternate retelling of the events before the Shadow Moses incident being given to Raiden to both train and feed him wrong information? idk, food for thought

[@Vanity0666]

Ghost Babel is part of the "Legend of Snake" or "Snake Tales" Raidens VR training for the Shadow Moses scenario is Twin Snakes

[@Vanity0666]

The goal of the Patriots wasn't to create more clones of Solid Snake, it was to create super soldiers who were trained off of the legends of people, through a combinatory selection of memetic data and gene editing, to surpass the reality of what Snake as a human being amounted to and progress into mythological beings (which results in the creation of the Beauty and Beast Corps)

[@texivani]

Damn dude, I really should play the original MGS games. I knew they had good writing and lessons and stuff, but I never knew they staight up had "here's what you do when you don't know who you are, when the entire world is lieing to you, and when you have no footing under yourself to make meaningful forward progress". You just sorta do it anyways.

[@hirobeez]

A thing I find funny is that if Raiden took what Snake told him to heart, and he heard to nerds arguing which Jack was the first he would probably slap both of them in the back of their heads.

[@LauraLowe]

The "first appearance" line on the wikipedia page was changed to Ghost Babel, but then later reverted with the comment "how is Raiden in Ghost Babel?"

[@Tman2bard]

The whole canon thing of Ghost Babel is a hard one to fully grappled with since its hinted at in many other games. Like in MGS2, when the Colonel AI goes crazy, he sometimes uses the Ghost Babel portrait, and can tell Raiden to infiltrate the Fortress Galuade. There's also a poster based on Babel's Box art in a room on the Big Shell. And even crazier, rereleases of Original MG2 use new portraits for everyone except Snake and Cambell. They reuse the Ghost Babel Portraits instead! Along with that, MGS4 has the Five Seven, and its description mentions Snake used it in the infiltration of Fortress Galuade, but it doesn't mention that its also used in AC!D 1&2, which came out earlier as well! There's so much that talks about Ghost Babel that no one really notices in the end

[@wollins7244]

It’s a fun reference in the other games but it is confirmed to be non-canon by Kojima himself

[@Tman2bard]

@@wollins7244 yeah yeah "Its non-canon but I can't help making people double think since I shove so much shit in it"

[@marvelsandals4228]

@@wollins7244 But I think the whole point of this game and many of Kojima's creative decisions were deliberately to toy with the concept of canon. For example, in Metal Gear Solid 1, the player can fail the torture mini game, and the ending is different, with Meryl dying at Shadow Moses. Then later it is confirmed that Meryl is alive and well. How can that be if the player lived the events of the game firsthand and saw her die? Was the whole game not reality, but just an alternate reality similar to the real timeline? In truth, they can do that at any time, presenting a "timeline" where events we KNOW are true apparently didn't happen the way we think it did. For example, in MGS2 the Colonel during the Codec calls was not the real Colonel, but a creation by the AI of "GW" to guide Raiden's actions. Then in MGS4 the Colonel (to be vague about the details) knows Rose well and it is implied that they have worked together in the past, perhaps on Raiden's mission...but that's impossible, we KNOW the real Colonel wasn't involved. The more you replay these games and think about the details the less sure you are about how ANY of these storylines could possibly be reconciled as one true canon.

[@KasumiRINA]

@@Tman2bard Psycho Mantis also mentions you loving Castlevania among other things and Snake catches monkeys and laments that Gabe (Syphon Filter) and Sam (Splinter Cell) weren't available. These are just Easter Eggs, references to other games. Don't overthink it. All games do it, and people just react as "gotcha, you made a Star Wars reference here" but we MGS fans go "OH WHAT DID KOJIMA MEANT WITH THIS". xD

[@ATPokemon]

Raiden's wikipedia page now says his first appearance is Ghost Babel.

[@TheFloodFourm]

Love this vid! MGS2 doesn’t get much discussion about the themes! So many people get caught up in the lore, MGS fans especially, but the lore isn’t the point. It’s never the point. It’s about the memories we make and the experiences we take away, that’s life, that’s what’s important. MGS2 isn’t a game *about* misinformation, it’s a game about dealing with it. We won’t ever know everything, especially when it comes to a video games lore, we have to find our own truths to live by, make our own lives. Make it and pass on what we deem worthy. That’s the “theme” of MGS, at least that’s what I choose to believe, because that’s what I take away. At it’s core MGS2 is just a well told spy thriller that makes you empathize and question things, as all the best art does.

[@GamingintheAM0801]

Super Bunnyhop put it best in his MGS2 video: "This was Kojima trying to tell his fans to stop worrying about canon and learn to love subtext."

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

You're right we won't know everything, but part of our experience is trying to know and sharing what we know. It is the shared experience and lore in memory. The point of people sharing is to make a cumulative memory. A memory which much like know how to make fire might help or give others clarity in explaining their own memories.

[@davisbreci5332]

Bro clearly hasn't sifted through hours and hours of mgs2 deep analysis videos

[@psychosalad7812]

can’t wait for them to come out and confirm that the jack from ghost babel is a completely different guy who just happens to share a common name with raiden

[@TypetwoAbsolute]

Every MGS protagonist ever: You're allowed to just go by one name?

[@tumultuousmacaroni4317]

I mean, even in MGS2 there's a callback to Ghost Babel through the Colonel AI telling Snake to rescue the hostages from the fortress Galuade.

[@GamingintheAM0801]

There's actually three more! When he tells you about a fork in the conveyer belt, and when he tells you to destroy the power plant with C4, which are objectives from Ghost Babel, and the weird story about the man named Two-Point Five is also from a secret Easter egg in Ghost Babel as well. Also, when he starts going haywire, he'll occasionally glitch out and his portrait will be replaced with the one from Ghost Babel for a frame or two.

[@vierzwanzigen9722]

​@@GamingintheAM0801TIL. And some people were saying Ghost Babel wasn't a simulation Raiden played, when all those references are present in MGS2. I'm going to play Ghost Babel now, is 2.5 a shadowy figure from a codec call or what?

[@SS2Dante]

20 years later and MGS2 is still finding new ways to absolutely *break* peoples brains 😂

[@NJoCaulfield]

So, realistically speaking, as an MG super fan: Kojima had some level of input in this game's development process, as he stated that he wanted to try and adapt the new MGS formula into a 2D game. The choice to have the reveal be Jack is likely a nod toward MGS2 that the writer, Tomokazu Fukushima (who was very closely involved in the writing for MGS, 2, and 3 as the Codec writer), chose to throw in since he would know the twist and find the VR mission setting appropriate. My tinfoil hat theory, on the other hand, says Fukushima was 'the man behind the man' that wrote the truly amazing stuff we've seen from the Metal Gear series, or at the very least tempered Kojima's ideas into a more tangible and substantive form, and thus deliberately chose to write his spin off with Shuyo Murata (also a common writer for the series) to include the nod toward the twist as a way of indulging the very ideas you're talking about in this video: to make the reveal an unreveal, to make the themes stronger and more powerful. It would fall perfectly in line with the fan claim that Fukushima was the one inserting the more impactful narrative behind the writing, but when we come back to reality, there's no proof for this because Fukushima receded from the public years ago. Damn good video, Miss Champ. Loved it!

[@NJoCaulfield]

Kojima is also a very openly self-indulgent guy, and given GB's referenced in MGS2, it's at the very least deliberate and something that I, personally, had never noticed.

[@GamingintheAM0801]

I mean, the simple fact that the franchise's writing took a dive off a cliff after Fukushima left is all the proof I need.

[@KasumiRINA]

Yeah Kojima is by no means a bad game maker, but for what it's worth, he's overrated to the point of idolization and it was the ENTIRE TEAM that made the magic work.

[@IrvinCascade]

First Appearance: Metal Gear Solid 2 Sons of Liberty. First Referenced/Mentioned: Metal Gear Ghost Babel.

[@Scoutp1]

Do he the devils advocate: RAIDEN didn't appear in ghost Babel, Jack did. Jack was called "Snake" until he got to the big shell, then he was called RAIDEN

[@ThePhantom9495]

So what I learned today is Gamechamp has a compulsion to play video games in release order due to fear of missing context, and potentially feels insecure about it to the point of making a video to justify how her brain works. That probably seems stupid to a neurotypical, but it makes total sense to me.

[@LiquidSevens]

i totally feel her... i first played MGS out of order and ever since then ive decided to play games like this (within reason)

[@KasumiRINA]

I want to play in story order. So MGS5 before MGS4, the two I missed.

[@awesomegaymer5786]

So did gamechamp play all of Zelda and mario including spinoffs to get to botw and odyssey or is that just a random exception? It seems kind of random to have played 50ish Mario and 30ish Zelda but 3 pokemon

[@StarmanSymphony]

As someone who has never played a Metal Gear Solid game nor knows much about the series as a whole, this video was extra interesting to me because it taught me so much, like MGS2'S marketing tying into the narrative themes of the game, Ghost Babel's existence, and the fact that MGS2 is on a level of mindscrew that no other piece of media will ever achieve for the rest of time, if that part of the game with all the eerie fourth wall breaks plus Gamechamp spiralling into madness when she went deeper into Raiden's "first appearance" is anything to go by.

[@KasumiRINA]

There were absolutely games with more mind-breaks than MGS2, for example, Undertale, Eternal Darkness, Stanley Parable to an extent. Spec Ops: the Line can be pretty close too. I like MGS2 but only final chapter of it is weird like that. You should try playing MGS games, at least the trilogy of numbered ones (1, 2 and 3). They're kinda short, have multiple ways to complete (stealth or guns blazing) and are interesting experience. Videos about the game don't really translate that.

[@Chowder_T]

I really liked this video. It's very different from your other stuff but it was interesting and thought provoking. It'd be cool if you did more stuff like this from time to time.

[@crozraven]

Wouldn't MG Ghost Babel being a noncanon spinoff actually make so much sense in the canonical lore if the whole game is actually just alternate VR training for Jack/Raiden?? Like the special stage truly revealed that this whole time you play as Jack "playing" as Solid Snake. Even after MGS2, this whole identity inception player thing actually become the main theme for MGSV as you the player literally "playing" as The Medic/Venom Snake who is "playing" as Big Boss/Naked Snake. This concept even become a key slogan for Kojima Productions, we are the "homo ludens," as the man who play...

[@dasaiyantv8483]

Wait so did no one else in the comments realize this video was uploaded on April 30th? I appreciate that mini easter egg, Ms. Gamechamp.

[@TheBanishedWind]

I'm just sitting back and laughing at Gamechamp driving herself crazy trying to make sense of it all.

[@MissingNo_]

I thought I literally knew everything about metal gear. Hell I even have the Fox logo tattooed on me, and had no idea about that end of Ghost Babel.

[@digimoncrazy]

14:28 I know it was unintentional, but the voice-explosion sounded pretty cool! Video is excellent, and I like the way you presented this, great job!

[@luisduerto631]

No way... What? I mean, I just paused the video as soon as I read "Get some rest for now... Jack" I've played all Metal Gear games, including the Game Boy Color one, when I was like 6 or 7 years old, and I didn't even speak English back then. I never re-visited this game because I thought it wasn't canon to the story line, but man, just that little subtle hint to what was going to happen in MGS2 got me off-guard. Man, I just love Kojima. Makes a 28 year old man get all nostalgic, even to this day. 🥲 Now I will continue watching the video, you just earned a sub and a like, man!

[@KobytheHero]

The one quote of the guy saying Raiden appears to be “the antithesis of Snake” is so funny. Congrats man you understand the whole point

[@JacobJohnson-lh4gx]

I loved Ghost Babel glad to see it being shown more, too bad you can't emulate it on android without the elavator glitch locking you in game making it impossible to proceed..

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

Now imagine he secretly appeared way way back in the first game as some random guard or something like.

[@PrincessNine]

Technically Raiden gets the codename in MGS2 after his first codename Snake. So them not calling him Raiden makes sense because....why would they? He literally gets that codename last minute on the job. Really really weird how people don't remember this

[@EricNightStorm]

I think this was completely intentional, Kojima is actually the producer of Ghost Babel, and by the time it released they were most likely working on MGS2, so he probably tied in both in a way that actually works with MGS2's narrative

[@Akay4444444444444444]

Here's a perspective: Characters are narrative concepts. While later Metal Gear games include continuity with prior games, they are separate games with their own narratives. Therefore, Jack in Ghost Babel, Raiden in MGS2, Raiden in MGS4, and Raiden in MGRR are all separate characters, with the latter ones referencing continuity with the prior ones.

[@vatrig]

It’s very interesting seeing a new perspective about something everyone has taken as fact. I also love Metal Gear. Good job on the new content!

[@frogmoss10]

Even disregarding the fact that it is non-canon, the Jack in Ghost Babel cannot be "Raiden". Oh sure, it could be the same Jack, but the codename "Raiden" did not exist in-universe until Jack was given it during the Big Shell incident. Before that point he went by the codename "Snake". Yes, this is an entirely pointless nit to pick.

[@MisterJackTheAttack]

Ms. Gamerchamp, April Fool's Day is the first day of the month, not the last day. This really felt like it was an April Fool's video 😹

[@autobotstarscream765]

It's not April Fool's, Kojima really did try to turn Metal Gear into Kingdom Hearts. 😂

[@CoralCopperHead]

@@autobotstarscream765 ...Tried?

[@delgande]

Another troon?!? Man its so annoying to see them in gaming. The voice is that of a man, not a woman

[@scottmccombs5287]

The second half of this video was an incoherent fever dream

[@GM_Darius]

That's just Metal Gear as a series in a nutshell. In this case, it's macadamia.

[@zentendoxn8955]

All this mental struggle over a vaguely specific character, without even taking the time to decide his name is pronounced more like Rayman than like Raichu.

[@janlusi6574]

this was actually mentioned on the wikipedia talk page for raiden as early as 2006

[@stevenn1940]

I would argue that the first *reference* to raiden is ghost babel, but his first *appearance* is MGS2

[@Rainbow-vf5uw]

This feels like a month later April fools joke

[@corndog_clubb]

7:00 MGS2 was *written* in the late 90s. I don’t see how this is impossible.

[@samurai6817]

Jack/Raiden never "appears" until MGS2. JACK was only MENTIONED so technically the wiki is correct. Furthermore, the codename "Raiden" wasn't assigned to Jack until "The Big Shell Incident".

[@Beltheczar]

Am I the only one that thinks that GC does a pretty good Solid Snake impression. At a few points, I honestly thought she got David Hayter to make a cameo

[@F2PAlius]

This whole video is on brand with GameChamp. It's basically Raiden's origin with a lot of astericks

[@GomerJ]

Also one could argue that until he was put into the field and given that code name, “Raiden” didn’t exist and thus MGS2 is actually correct in being the first appearance of “Raiden.” At the time of Ghost Babel he was simply “Jack.”

[@kyuubimadara]

Man you really stretched this video to 26 min just to say "Raiden was referenced in Ghost Babel"

[@howellkatz2063]

I like your video! Although, I think it's kind of a jump to say that they hinted at Raiden being the main character in MGS2 using the cameo from Ghost Babel. In Ghost Babel, they really only reveal that a character named Jack is going through VR Training, without making any reference to potential future events. Still, I appreciated hearing about Ghost Babel, and I liked your editing a lot! I hope that you keep making neat videos. :)

[@Henry-so3qp]

If you want to go even more down the rabbit hole, there is a theory that MGS1 on PS1 might actually be the VR mission that Raiden plays, while the Gamecube Twin Snakes is the actual canon events, because Naomi and Mei-Ling do not have the accents like the PS1 versions of the game and have the ones they would have in 4. BUT, fans also flip and say that Twin Snakes is actual the VR mission Jack plays, because the gameplay is the same as 2's and it would explain the more outlandish cutscene direction featured in the remake. WHICH COULD MEAN JACK APPEARED IN MGS1, MAYBE???? BUT MAYBE NOT????

[@GamingintheAM0801]

MGS2 points out differences in MGS2's controls as being "different from the VR training," so if you were to subscribe to this theory, mechanically it makes more sense for the PS1 game to be VR.

[@GeneFOX70]

Twin Snakes can't be Raiden's VR Training m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z2aXh4trlr17r5o

[@Lucaz-111]

The twist is the title itself

[@ShuckleII]

This felt like it could've been condensed more Yes, I have a dopamine dependency

[@autobotstarscream765]

Nah, I think the broken ranting is a reference to the Colonel losing it.

[@RedMageGaming]

I mean MGS2 basically states that MGS1 and VR Missions were both Simulations Jack went through, so... His first "appearance" would have been in MGS1.

[@vierzwanzigen9722]

MG2?

[@RedMageGaming]

@@vierzwanzigen9722 apparently 9 months ago I made a typo. MGS2

[@Omnicide101]

This got to the point where I think Raiden could say "I am Alpharius. This is a lie." and it'd probably make things MORE comprehensible.