Gaslighting Questions

[@chelsbrindley9059]

I think it's important to know the difference between emotional manipulation and real gaslighting. By definition, the intent/awareness on behalf of the aggressor is the biggest difference/most definable characteristic, though admittedly often difficult (if not impossible) to prove without knowing the honest intention of the person.

[@lnaph8215]

People who have a false self and false reality often need to convince both you and themselves they are not wrong, and conversely that you are.

[@rachaelesque3]

Spot on!

[@feedyourhead731]

Absolutely, this is not an extremely rare phenomenon unfortunately.

[@lnaph8215]

@@feedyourhead731 exactly

[@Wendy-Williams-NC]

Glad you did this Dr Kirk...as someone who has dealt with true gaslighting before it was even a "thing" its very frustrating to see it thrown onto situations everywhere!

[@modesttriangle1022]

From what I know academically/have experienced, gaslighting is: Manipulation of another person's perception of themselves/reality/both. Invalidating feelings. "Saving face" by denying abusive/hurtful behavior, then making oneself out to be a victim. I don't think it matters whether a person is doing this purposefully or not if the effects are harmful psychologically...although that can be debated, I'm sure. People on social media seem to simply not care that they are doing this. In fact, people will support the gaslighters on social media simply because they're friends, or because they're psychologically distressed. This seems to be an extremely pernicious and harmful social heuristic, and frankly a false understanding of interpersonal communication. I'm no counselor yet, but it doesn't take a genius to know that we don't excuse hurtful actions, we apologize for them honestly. That's like, step one. Think about how it'd make you feel if someone told you, "You are a bad person and nothing you say or do will change that. Why? Because you constantly complain and tell me how hurt you are by my words. I don't say hurtful things. If I do, you deserve them. So now, you are to be tarred and feathered. Meanwhile I shall ride off into the sunset, my ego stroked by my followers/friends who excuse my hurtful behavior." Purposefully denying hurtful behavior in order to manipulate a persons' sense of self/reality. There seems to be an underlying theme with gaslighting, which is " I am a good/worthy person, you are a bad/unworthy person. I will convince you and others of this so that I can justify my hurtful behavior towards you" instead of just...apologizing, maybe, idk. But cool people don't do that.

[@kyootzee]

I watched Bachelor in Paradise this week and Brendan told Natasha she must have "selective hearing" because she recalled all the times she felt lead on by him and he wanted to deny it. I hope you will have time to review that episode because to me, that was clearly gaslighting.

[@CrimsonArclight]

Yes! I came here to recommend to that he watch that too.

[@kat632]

Gaslighting happens over a long period of time, people in BAP have only known each other for a few weeks. He was being extremely manipulative and deceptive, but not gaslighting. He WAS trying to get her to question herself but it wasn't a long term campaign to get her to completely question her sanity. He likely felt shameful for what he did and felt like he was being attacked, so he lied (Dr. Kirk explains this in the video). All gaslighting is manipulation, but not all manipulation is gaslighting, if that makes sense!

[@SamM32727]

I get toaaa

[@therabbithat]

If you try to get someone else to see things from your perspective that is not gaslighting. They might feel invalidated, either because you didn't first acknowledge their perspective, or because they need extra acknowledgement of it because of past experiences of being invalidated

[@suelawson7273]

I was thinking about this the other day. Narcissism seems to be used in situations, when years ago words like 'conceited' and 'full of themselves' were used instead 🤔

[@debrajanzen6661]

Thanks for covering this topic. I'm being gaslighted in the classical sense by a stalker who breaks in and enters non forced entry, changes things around in my home, swaps items and steals. He has made it difficult to prove. I do et irritated when pple use the term in a trivial way because true gaslighting is so abusive and a serious crime.

[@kerfufflebus9690]

I kind of see the overuse of the term as a symptom of society trying to talk about emotional abuse and how damaging it is more. Hopefully the usage will evolve and mature 🤷‍♀️ idk

[@cbgbstew4072]

I’m sorry, Dr. Honda, I asked you recently about doing a video on the real definition of this without doing my due diligence and searching your videos. This is great and what everyone needs to know to stop the ubiquitous misuse of the term.

[@prettybyaccident]

Oof this was a tough one doc. I hear the delicate battle of Dr Kirk not wanting to invalidate people who believe they were gaslit and also try to maintain the clinical meaning of the word. It made my head hurt lol

[@Pinkoala4207]

I really appreciate this and the flippant use of the term will only damage true victims. While I am not receiving professional treatment I have begun to think about starting. I was gaslit in a previous relationship for 2 years and was told by my mother that she believed I was becoming a victim of gaslighting due to some concerning things I would say to her about my relationship. I didn’t believe her at first because I viewed myself as a “strong woman” and that it wouldn’t happen to me. My current partner has expressed that he feels as if I don’t let my guard down with him or tell him what’s going on in my head sometimes. I am now realizing that I may be doing that as a coping mechanism to keep him distant enough so he cannot manipulate my reality even though he is amazing and shows no signs of these tendencies.

[@user-dm2ck3pb5r]

I am 67 years old. Middle sister has been gaslighting me and continues to this day. I loved her so much but about a year ago I stumbled on gaslighting explanation and it blew my mind. She has set up situations where she accuses me or other sister of doing things but I believe it’s her on so many occasions. One particular was her put over father’s estate. He was still alive as we prepared to sell his house and divided things up. She called and said, hey someone is calling Father and saying to him, Mamma and hanging on the phone. It’s upsetting to him. Is it you? This many years ago. Another as I went to see him in nursing home and she insisted I go in and defend her over his behavior toward sisters daughter. All this time I was doing all she wanted and then she came off like I chose to do it. Well I began to drift away from her and man alive she doesn’t like that. So now, she has pulled my children in and comes off so sweet and me, I’m just wrong to not want contact. It’s just crazy and yes she has done this for ages with me for sure. With Father, I believe she tried to get him to take everyone out of the will but it didn’t work. It was then that I got that something was wrong . It’s a mess.

[@chuppa1chups]

I think that "malicious distortion" would be a better term. Invalidation is the refuting or minimizing of another person's perspective, and I don't think that it fully expresses the extent of the unacceptable behavior.

[@kiwiquent]

Nice description

[@bigwhy6845]

I feel Dr Honda's frustration around the words "gaslighting" and "narcissism." It's infuriating that these words are so overused. l don't get the morbid fascination people have with these terms.

[@aleynahrizo797]

The new “version” of gaslighting is becoming popularized on TikTok by people who have been gaslighted and by mental health professionals. There were videos and even pictures/memes going around that said things like “Gaslighting Sounds Like: ‘You remember that wrong.’ ‘That’s not what I said.’ ‘You’re crazy!’ ‘You’re being so dramatic, it wasn’t that bad’ “ Etc. My unpopular opinion, is that while it might not be the correct clinical term, it’s opened mine and many others’ eyes to the fact that we were being manipulated and manipulatIVE. I didn’t realize prior to learning about (modern term) gaslighting, that there was a word for being manipulated in that kind of way. I guess “invalidating” is the correct term, but the popularization of the conversation about emotional abuse and manipulation has opened so many eyes

[@aleynahrizo797]

the “new version” of gaslighting makes the abuser’s/manipulator’s invalidation question your own feeling and reality

[@Grayhead1979]

I love the use of 'invalidating' here! I will sue that!

[@aleka..]

interesting... typo? lol If we could only sue invalidators...

[@Grayhead1979]

@@aleka.. 'use' :)

[@karenharrison6407]

Described my ex husband to the letter. I never had counseling but realised 40 plus years later...I have discovered he was the idiot not me.

[@thetnta]

Paternalism is also a term you can use for the medical community.

[@asunnywebb]

I think the term gaslighting in the Darcey & Georgi example was used to say "You're trying to replace my reality with a different - and untrue - reality". It's a feeling like nothing makes sense so you feel like you're in the Twilight Zone but you can't put your finger on exactly why just yet, at least without a ton of processing, that's the feeling people are applying to the term "gaslighting". Which is and isn't what your described. Subtly different maybe.

[@aleka..]

While sure - terms take up different meanings over time, I do find it harmful and argue for protesting that change when it's trivializing serious issues - *and* there's no good alternative to keep the original meaning. If it's happening with previously medical/psych terms, it's also ableism. Say - how _triggered_ became accusation of every (perceived) sensitivity/feelings at all. It's denigrating non-traumatized compering their (generally healthy) response (most often - to bigotry) to actual serious issue >> is denigrating people with trauma/ptsd in a process. (and it's used to invalidate & dismiss people's valid complaints. So no good can come out of that language change)

[@rosu5726]

Thank you for explaing. It is new to me and I dislike it for being misleading and tricky.

[@RaymondJiang444]

I guess I'm probably of the 'new' generation you're referring to that likes to use the term 'gaslighting' more liberally, but I also agree that it's overused. I think the biggest issue with the term is that it can be highly dependent on how the victim themselves react to the perceived gaslighting. For some people, even the slightest disagreements or miscommunication can affect them, while others are more thick-skinned or are just able to recognize the signs better. The clinical definition of gaslighting as being volitional and long-term seems to represent the most severe and extreme form of gaslighting, where few people would be able to make it out without some harm to their mental health. Also as I was listening to this episode, and especially after you talked about the scenario with the two business partners, a question that came to me was, if someone accuses you of gaslighting, is that in itself a form of gaslighting or psychological manipulation? Where you make the person doubt their own intentions and mindset? I know it probably depends a lot on the nature of the conversation, your relationship with the other person, and whether or not it's part of a pattern of pervasive behavior, but it feels like some people just casually see the definition of gaslighting as 'making someone question their own perception of reality,' and then start using that term _any time_ they feel like their perspectives are being challenged. Well, isn't part of changing your perspectives mean having to adjust your perception of reality to some extent? It's not to say that arguments are always done respectfully or in good faith, but as you said we need to get better at using our words and not shy away from backing up our arguments, especially if we choose to share them in the first place. I also agree that using the term does make some people feel like a doctor diagnosing a patient, so it gives them a sense of moral superiority.

[@ooze8354]

Dr. Honda: I dont like when people use labels like borderline personality. Also dr. Honda: people with borderline personality etc... Me: lol ok doc.

[@jessa.4529]

So we could gaslight Dr. Honda into thinking that we believe the new definition of gaslighting if we specifically don't believe the definition just to trick him into believing that we do...just to intentionally make him feel crazy? Do I have that right??

[@kyootzee]

I think people are going to keep using the word gaslighting because it sounds more dramatic and has fewer syllables. Like, "you're using motivational reasoning against me" does not have the same effect as "you're gaslighting me".

[@doreenplischke7645]

I believe from my own personal observations that ppl might mistake projecting for gaslighting.

[@sandralamkin2252]

Thank times a million.

[@rosu5726]

Wow I'm surprised Humberto had that serious problem. He always seemef annoying healthy. I should be dead but I keep livin dammitt!

[@alinw-n7t]

Nice one. Next topic can be mansplaining.

[@runlolarun8957]

Didn't he include that in viewer emails at some point?

[@alinw-n7t]

@@runlolarun8957 Don't know.

[@chuppa1chups]

I think he talks about this in "Debating Feminism" although I'm not 100% certain as I haven't listened to the older episodes in at least a couple of years.

[@FeatherrBrain]

“Use your words”. I tell this to my 6 yr old all the time.

[@megancaceres7525]

Dr. Honda. Darcey used "love bombing." Either way still the wrong term 😂

[@saiikik2727]

There are so many other psychological terms people DO use correctly, and gaslight may have not been correctly taught to laymen. If professionals are really into this business for helping people, helping laymen, helping society--and it's not about pride-- then professionals should have a solid definition of the words they create and consistent usage. I'm sure many professionals were unsure about "gaslight" 's meaning. But it feels like another thing some professionals want to use to hold themselves higher than their clients. My take is once a psychology term hits mainstream and it's being used wrong, the higher ups messed up.

[@MAIMEDWOLF]

Kirk I absolutely adore your podcast! Please will you watch all of Frenemies and talk about it? I'm dying to hear your opinions on it. GUYS PLEASE THUMBS UP SO HE SEES THIS :3 (thank youuu!!)

[@J03ski3s]

Yesyesyes