Can a 230whp, widebody MR2 beat a Honda Civic? - MR2 vs Civic REMATCH

[@GearsandGasoline]

I did not cheat, Lin’s just slow. -Thorn

[@AmirPomen]

Mr2 needs much bigger front sway bar and Toe in for the rear (atleast 2degree total toe in)

[@TheZohanLohan]

​@@AmirPomen2 degree toe in is ginormous, maybe 0.2 you mean

[@crxtodd16]

Does Ben's MR2 have a rear sway bar? I can't remember...

[@scarea2691]

@@crxtodd16 if he does he needs to dump it, get an addco front, no rear, stiffen up rear damping

[@spreilly71]

I really don't know the level of suspension work you guys have done on the mr2 yet but for the front mac struts on the mr2 a roll center adapter on ball joints/ tie rods should help keep the front suspension from catching wild camber under compression. Small part that might help tame that mid corner oversteer

[@PajamaSenpai]

Thorn must have cheated. There's no way a car with years of development would beat a car that was put together weeks before the race 😉

[@gar24407]

The MR2 needs a wing and probably play with sway bars. OEMs use "soft" sway bars to prevent oversteer, it maybe too stiff.

[@Weimerica8841]

Subframe bracing could help too, the car was pretty salty when they got it and they are really flimsy. I know they have a cage now but it's only really tying the cabin together

[@xoriatmike6857]

Definitely a suspension root issue, downforce will help mostly only at moderate+ speeds. Definitely look at rear suspension and then test for aero.

[@longsleevethong1457]

Stiffer rear sway bar leads to snap oversteer. Yeah….Prolly needs softer rear sway bar

[@Weimerica8841]

@@longsleevethong1457 Yep, very common for track MR-S builds to remove the rear sway bar entirely since coilovers all come with 30-50% stiffer rear spring rates compared to front. I know some guys that run equal springs F/R that keep the rear bar and fine tune with sway bars. Just different ways of achieving the same thing

[@longsleevethong1457]

@@Weimerica8841 yep. I’d do some good adjustable shocks and corner balance it.

[@CorpseExplosion]

Seems like the expected result for a very mature build vs a new one. Always appreciate just how much of your content is actual driving.

[@JaredR1996]

I for one can’t wait to see what livery Ben will wrap his MR2. You know it’s gonna look so cool

[@darrelpads]

Want a sneak peek? 👀

[@ChinitFxt]

Dude it’s everywhere

[@JaredR1996]

@@ChinitFxtoh I haven’t seen it yet. Sorry I didn’t know 😅

[@joey_f4ke238]

Yep, it looks good

[@darrelpads]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/epaXp6mEia97iKssi=FjNMqO1aU8cdRBwC

[@DaleGeorge-t8n]

MR-s seams worse handling than stock setup very nervous cornering, one thing I notice in vid is Ben was on off the throttle quite a lot during corners which will make car snap over steer. My advice is get throttle on lightly at turn in and try and keep it there through the corner till your almost out at the end. Then if the car starts to over steer during corner don't let off but try to hold the drift then mess with setup a little till it becomes predictable over steer or neutral steering as you could be altering setup for not If you ain't keeping the car balanced under cornering loads. Naturally start at a slower speed while doing this and try to use a track with good run offs. Loved the yellow rx7 perfect if that had the kswap lol

[@RTRKNG]

Hey Ben Lin, I fixed my oversteer with ARB settings on my MR2 Roadster. You could try disconnecting your rear bar and seeing what happens? Really moves the balance around. Also I ran 0 toe front and a tiny touch of toe in at the rear, and it was most stable, but again personally a hint of toe out at the front 0.15 degrees i think, made the turn in a lot sharper without being snappy. Also, tryres. 255/235 is a lot less stagger than stock 185/205, on a percentage you have shifted tyre to the front

[@Wirenfeldt1990]

please, please for the love of God.. Redo this when the Mister Two has been dialed.. Redemption for Tall Ben!

[@solaryellowis3007]

Man putting angle and a +40 overfender really tested my patience. Became good friends with my hammer and grinder.

[@blackhatch46]

Have you tried playing with the rear sway bar on the MR2? Or just removing it?

[@paidinm3263]

That Mr.2 was a disaster 😮 so much effort went into it think best call it quits

[@konstadinosnikolakis4098]

Make some aero for the mr2. It needs a wing and a front splitter ASAP. Remove the rear sway bar or put the oem one and leave the aftermarket in front.

[@dylanandersen9318]

Tire pressures are another thing to consider. Might be able to lower the rear a couple PSI to help. Also, probably remove the rear sway bar.

[@Genevagirls-h2x]

Always love seeing mr2 content. MR2 vs Civic should be fun in the upcoming season!!!!! Glad the zz30 is getting some attention, other than Toyota making a poor engine decision its an awesome little car. I've driven the three gens and its definitely the most fun.

[@tomika_nagy]

You have to work on that rear alignment. If it was factory spec, forget that,it needs more toe in or Try it without swaybar, maybe it's too stiff.

[@t-uuRacing]

Just came here to say the chapter titles are mint 😂

[@EricEgot]

Everytime bro countersteers he got Kerosene playing😂

[@EricEgot]

@GEARSANDGAS2 scam?

[@shawnbalch6046]

I thought it was a known issue when running a staggered tire setup that understeer is more prevalent than running a square setup.

[@dawidgolonka6274]

@BenLin - the front of MR2 looks (almost) like a Porsche Carrera GT 😁

[@davidstevenson9633]

The MR2 bar work is a work of art well done

[@AndorRadnai]

5:03 That is excellent pronunciation Ben! And that’s coming from a German..! Cheers from Austria by the way! ^^

[@carlohenley4044]

The best chapter titles in the history of chapter titles.

[@Ruserton]

That mr2 looks like some sketchy fun

[@ReefyBmx]

Another roadtrip with the subie and evo man asap

[@zanixxg]

Not saying you should do this, but try it out atleast. The MR2's front is so light that when you press the gas for a bit, it lifts up a bit, it needs downforce in front and definitely in the REAR. Maybe a roof and some airduct going directly to the engine will help you too. Aerodynamics will change the way that MR2 drive.

[@HumbleHonkingEnthusiast]

I thought this car was going to be a shitposting project given how much of a hunk of shit it was when you bought. It's actually a sick car now

[@wadesloan]

Love the direction the MR2 is going, keep it up

[@TheDisBeat]

Used to be a honda fan boy but toyota has won me over. However I think you guys should do a mini cooper s build that would be something different to watch

[@chris-graham]

Come do a main event!!!

[@anzelcanete435]

Yes, I do read them 🙏🏾

[@Saj5DJ]

Addco 25.4mm front sway. Stock rear sway. Problem gone.

[@pottasium7117]

man, that zzw30 looks like a riot to drive

[@petkokrushev3840]

MR2 needs a big wing in the back, looks unfinished without it

[@glizzyanddog1666]

yes i do “read those”😂

[@anthonyrobitaille8963]

The interior of the mr2 looks like a reap death trap, did ben just cut his leg on the radio bracket? 5:57

[@jimbob5589]

Time stamps are great 🤣

[@mattwillow7]

Thorn must have cheated. Also, check out DannyDC2 and his MR2 content, he's in SW20 this year, but few years back he drove 3rd gen he built and his car seemed to handle pretty good.

[@FoolishPursuitForce]

I wonder whether the MR2 can even put enough heat in the tires for them to actually start working. It might just be too light for the 255 rears without any aero.

[@turbohayabusa01]

Softer sway bar in the rear and rear wing should help stick that rear end to the ground alittle better 👌🏻 I’m team Honda but still wana see that Mr2 to its greatest potential

[@rynjylbyg]

watching from the philippines.

[@Tacojoint]

Watching from Japan

[@420Nate]

Didn’t ask

[@Tacojoint]

@@420Nate bros mad

[@bheypuor]

Big ben’s poor right leg looks like the mr2 is cutting into it without that center support trim piece covering the metal support

[@geoffwatches]

Smashing content gentlemen

[@tsega60]

Battle of the Benjamins yet again

[@rynjms]

Yes 9:24

[@Kamukix]

Thorn must have cheated...also I'm still wondering after all this time what kind of alignment the MR-S has on it? I imagine with dialing in the alignment and spending some time working on dialing in the suspension frequencies will balance the car out nicely. They both look great though and I imagine are hugely fun to drive. 😁

[@thitakapa9]

The mr2 is a car designed with 1zz an engine weigthing only 100 kilos...2ar is 150 kilos...thats why it oversteers....my opinion is to move weight at the front...even adding some

[@nejcmirtic529]

Thorn must have cheated. It will be really fun to see the future developement of the MR2.

[@s_t_r_a_y_e_d]

that MR2 is a widowmaker 💀

[@Foldingblade]

Thorn must have cheated. but damn these are close cant wait for more def

[@cuconatparfour665]

No way the car that's been tuned for years defeat a car that's been built in a month, KZbin logic does do that.

[@habeth0205]

This mr2 sounds exactly like a badly set up 911. First session last year before I dialed mine in it was similar to thorn’s experience. Maybe longer wheelbase helped me a bit but yea

[@mikedor7987]

Thorn must have cheated

[@sooyster4033]

Must have

[@SlamICED]

Thorn must have cheated

[@LaurentVanderdonck]

Definitely

[@svgPhoenix]

100%

[@93455Driver]

Thorngate

[@izzieb]

I think Ben will be the fastest.

[@jhref]

... how did you know!?

[@dylang.1436]

Ben is always faster than Ben, its ridiculous.

[@SpiritBlueFezST]

Have a look at the Techno Pro Spirit MR-S for how quick these cars can be when set up properly. Also not sure if the fact the car having no roof, and no rear aero (wing) is negatively affecting it's performance? Love the Civic though, you can see it's a proper set up car.

[@benji-yw2dx]

love the TPS MR-S. fastest car on gunsai (?) with 1/3 the horsepower of the competition

[@v8_sami]

Also there is a video where TPS literally gives away the formula for the car. Also would like to know how much weight the new engine added after the swap. No aero and with no suspension work the car is basically all over the place.

[@Giuliana-w1f]

lightness is a powerful weapon

[@iamstd2]

That car is insanely fast for the setup. 2ZZ, stock brake size, narrow body, and 16 inch wheels I think.

[@Shrrby]

Having no roof probably isn't a factor for Ben's car as it sits, the cage ties so many chassis points together across the top of the car it's probably adding more rigidity than any hard top ever could. The aerodynamics of a smooth top though may be a different issue 😂

[@kimparedes1920]

Mate, this mr2 needs a lot of work, i have one with k24 and i can tell you the car should not be that difficult to drive specially with your current tyre setup... could you post your current alignment setup? Suspension setup regading rebound? Rear sway bar is changed? Once you put the mr2 where you want it will be a joy to drive.

[@AyushK7318]

Thorn must have cheated! And yes, we do read the chapter titles!

[@crazykidksyt2848]

Thorn must have cheated. There’s no way

[@LLbrker]

I have been racing my Mr2 Spyder since 2020, various track days and lots of autocross and I’ve never experienced snap oversteer like this , it’s very neutral, certainly not the hand shuffling I’m seeing on the video , try running the rear a little stiffer with shock tuning , you want to eliminate the pendulum effect of the rear swaying, and remember that the front is really light, you don’t need high tire pressure or stiff shock settings there’s no weight up there .rear shock midway shock adj front 1/4

[@Weimerica8841]

Me too, at several power levels and never had the issues Ben describes. Front tire pressures need to be almost unbelievably low here in TX. Not sure if they've tried removing the rear sway bar and putting a 1" or bigger front bar in, but that should help too.

[@sabotagetyler]

I don't own an MR2 but have watched plenty of in-car videos of cars that are well set up with explanations to their setups and this checks out, definitely seems like the rear is too soft.

[@longsleevethong1457]

Rear sway needs to be softer. Stiffer rear sway bar leads to oversteer. But yeah it prolly needs adjustable shocks and corner balancing.

[@LLbrker]

@@longsleevethong1457 not on a mid engine car

[@camryt]

Yeah, exactly. Mine is super balanced and neutral, to the point I wish it rotated more. IIRC Ben’s car has an open diff, this might be the biggest issue (but then again most Lotuses have open diffs 🤷‍♂️) and suspension seems to be waay too soft. A lot of people swear by 8/12kg spring combo in these cars. I’m also wondering if the wide stance didn’t fuck the suspension geometry up?

[@TheFreeWulf]

Hey Ben, as you’re having trouble with massive oversteer on the MR2, why not check out the Techno Pro Spirit MR2 and it’s many renditions. Could be a massive help for setting up suspension since their known as the ultimate mr2 spyder tuner in Japan with massive accomplishments on track and touge.

[@frederickschulze8014]

With the mr-2, if the issue is only lift off oversteer, you may want to soften compression in the front and soften rebound in the rear if you have two way adjustable shocks. This will allow the rear tires to stay more planted as weight shifts forward while not overloading the front.

[@longsleevethong1457]

Yep….also a softer rear sway bar and maybe some bracing.

[@adriangonzales6645]

TEE HEE 37’s😂😂😂😂

[@ProphetMotorsports]

For the MR2, i run the same spring rates as you. A techno toy front sway bar and factory rear bar. 225/245 tires. Very composed. Current regional autox champ. Soften rear bar, increase rear rebound and drop 3psi rear tire pressure will help.

[@PajEvo_Aus]

Did you have to chop the guards to fit the tyres? Just starting to get into it with my own MR2 Spyder

[@ProphetMotorsports]

@@PajEvo_Aus nope. I run 15x9 +35 in the rear and 15x7.5 +35 in the front. Fits perfectly. You need correct ride height and spring rates to avoid too much travel and rubbing at max compression stroke.

[@trigon.6296]

It is amazing to see what really goes into making a car racespec ready and to see how to diagnose problems and finding solutions for it!

[@RyanDohertyRacing]

Need to change sway bar set up, possibly remove the rear. My 2nd gen mr2 had similar issue until I removed the rear sway bar, and then i could attack corners off throttle with a lot more aggression. I still have rotation off throttle trail braking into corners, but it’s manageable now rather than a nuisance.

[@kalindugunathilake2811]

Bro im just so dialed in like a grandma now looking for the video subscribe button 🤣🤣. Anyways, cheers guys. Happy Development!!

[@shannacollins4741]

Man I almost bought a black MR2 as my first new car at 18 but im like 6'4 and it was kinda tight and i didn't think id be very comfortable in the car driving for long periods so i bought a 2001 Honda Prelude instead way better purchase and better car !

[@MrStanYoung]

MR-S needs a massive front sway bar and/or some stiffer springs up front.

[@R03333]

255 tyres aren't doing a lot when they have no weight on them, get a wing on the back? Then in the slower stuff i'd assume its rear roll bar/coilovers not helping traction

[@FernandoSosaIndustries]

Love my “Saturday Morning Cartoons” … Thanks G&G for the awesome content

[@MrTwoZZT]

I think they went too wide on the MR2 tyres, standard was 205/185 and I like mine slightly wide on 215/195. I remember one the Japanese Touge videos when they have tuner battles there was always a guy with a MR2 and they went with wider tyres and then in later versions went narrower again.

[@zwgrafakhsandrianos7784]

APR widebody MR-S is slowly becoming my favorite attainable pocket rocket🎉

[@donmcneil722]

I want to be like you guys someday. It just looks like so much fun!

[@AsianWithHat]

Thorn must have cheated

[@jamesmchenry4708]

...the chapter titles give me joy every video. Don't feel so bad about it. :3 Also thorn must have cheated.

[@garagecedric]

In the DrivingLine video Ben mentioned that the MR2 had no droop at all, that would explain alot of the nervous behaviour. Hope its sorted out so you can push it harder!

[@jhref]

I'm a bit of a noob. What's droop?

[@TheCorington]

@@jhref suspension travel when a wheel is lifted above static height

[@anderskleven9202]

homie needs downforce

[@brapgarage]

Chapter titles have been an ongoing joy of watching this channel.

[@someperson7]

That MR2 clearly has a lot more to give. You'll get it there.

[@mrfurzzy8867]

Thorn must have cheated. He obviously switched the front tires to the rear to make it more tail happy

[@djsonicc]

Thorn has been running reverse stagger since he entered Time Attack

[@mrfurzzy8867]

@@djsonicc It's a joke. I'm saying that he swapped the MR2 tires to reverse stagger to mess with tall ben

[@ryanmattson1735]

Its kinda funny to know exactly what the mr2 looks like in it's finished form thanks to konig wheels vid

[@opt123123]

Things i (rear engine race car guy) would be looking at on the mr2: 1. Are the rear tyres coming up to temperature? 2. Seems to be weight shift to front unleashing rear tyres, therefore stiffer front compression (shocks, springs, geometry) and allow ready to droop more (less rebound damping) 3. Brake bias 4. Maybe sprung rear too stiff which might be roll bar and/or springs+damper 5. Check shock dampers are actually working (shock dyno) and appropriate to control the spring. 6. No point looking at aero until you have improved mechanical grip

[@hectorae86]

The MR2 basically just has parts thrown at it at this point. It needs a LOT of work. The thing that has bugged me the most is spacers on the front.... There's a lot more than that of course, but that bugged me the most. I think a smooth underbody is going to help you A LOT as well. The second most buggy thing is the unpredictable oversteer you are claiming, that thing should oversteer predictably every single time, so something is very wrong if the oversteer is truly unpredictable.. could also be that you're just not used to it yet. I think a perfectly set up 200 HP MR2 Spyder would beat that Civic... Not by much, but it would beat it.

[@longsleevethong1457]

Mr2 prolly needs softer rear sway bar.

[@dbracing7228]

Y'all should send DannyDC2 a text for tips and tricks for the MR2, a mid engine car being this unstable is shocking

[@blairo15]

It's funny how in America it's ok to not wear your race suit to track days. In Australia that would never happen. They say a car doesn't know its not a serious race and you can still catch fire so wear it. Also same thing with the HANS device. One other bit of constructive criticism.... It looks like both you guys are reaching for your wheels around the corners. It's like the steering wheels in both cars need to be closer to the driver. Hey I'm not perfect either. Just food for thought.. Love the video 👍

[@Atsah]

If you ever want to push stupid amounts of power in the MR2, there’s a guy based here in the U.K. called StavTech on KZbin who’s worked out swap kits for 1.8t, VR5 and VR6s with both DSG and manual. Which means you can push past 1600+ without any subframe modifications or serious bulkhead work(I say that only because it’s easier to make part of the bulkhead rivnuted to be able to remove it when you need to work on the intake side of the engine). He’s got a fairly stock 1.8t one pushing over 500 on pump fuel rn, obviously the issue with your car isnt power it’s suspension/arb/tires (or a combination of all 3) but it’s possible to make these 3rd gen MR2s fking rapid without that much work!

[@noceilingsmotorsports]

The MR2 needs a lsd that disengages the clutches slower on decel so maybe a 1.5 or 2 way. Car has a lot off throttle oversteer on entry (expected tho ITS AN MR2 lol)

[@jacobgreen490]

Thanks for taking the 350 out! Glad you got to drive it 😁

[@maccarioandrea]

It's sketchy not only on change of direction, but also in steady cornering. That means the load on the tyres is not balanced towards understeer. I'll look at SWAY BARS, BUMP STOP LENGTH, and ALIGNMENT

[@jpotter]

one word for the oversteer problem. SUSpension. its kinda SUS. haha seriously tho, maybe adjustable arms, play with rollbar thickness. F/R damping. Then put on a GT wing, front canards. MR-S arent supposed to be that snap oversteery. But may Thorn cheated idfk. GLHF Tall Ben.

[@orbitaljunkie]

Those sparks flying off the EK make it look so badass!

[@nicolelongneckergallery]

Long time track rat here. May I suggest eliminating the ABS on the MR2? My old FD Rx-7 brakes came alive after removing the ABS pump. Good luck.

[@styledliving]

you guys should reach out to joe mcguigan. he tracks the mr-s at places like laguna seca. the suspension he runs was co developed with a west coast suspension vendor. valving was made specifically for their platform.

[@InsaneBimmer]

Not an MR2. Never will be. They were crap when they came out and they'll forever be crap. I'm sorry. Just cold hard fact. MR2... yeah right. Not in your wildest dreams.

[@hamishmclean2083]

Yes... "Thorn must have cheated". When skimming watching the video again helps me find what I wanted to watch. Great channel... love your work. Love the road trips best of all. The RX7 road trip my favorite by far!

[@feathersandtarmac6456]

Uprated the rear anti roll bar around 300% from stock keep the stock anti roll bar

[@KutsugeMindUrmoks]

Thorn must have cheated

[@jacobs.9797]

Thorn must have cheated. The MR2 is too much of a beast for any mortal vehicle to beat it. Not even the 2011 Nissan Murano Cross Cabriolet is capable of overtaking the MR2, and we all know how exceptional that vehicle is.

[@elarr8733]

Neither of these situations apply to this video, but: Chapter titles help me skip the spoiler reel everybody started adding at the beginning. I use it to skip two minute intros at the beginning of 10 minute videos without crucial subjects. If I was learning to defuse a bomb in 10 minutes, I might want the intro. Otherwise, what are you preparing me for? The shock of actual content? Edit to add: Chapter titles often help in a comedy podcast when they veer off into politics.

[@Elaruwan]

Thorn must have cheated. THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORAL IMPROVES