George RR Martin Criticizes HOTD -(SPOILERS) - The Raw Take

[@bluebod2264]

I’m frustrated that what could have been used as a selling point for this show was that the lore was finished. GOT’s fall was so legendary that even non-viewers knew about it, so convincing my non-GOT fan friends (and even myself, to an extent) to give this show a shot hinged on telling them: “don’t worry, GRRM finished this story, so the writers won’t be left to tie it up themselves.” And now that’s gone.

[@VANIT_E]

Imagine a person's honesty, in their personal space, on their personal blog, being considered "unprofessional" regarding their life's work being tarnished. As if he had no right to talk about the thing HE wrote.

[@DCharles]

The issue is that it’s a public site available to the public. There’s also an etiquette. But the biggest issue is that he’s an executive producer on HOTD, meaning he’s got a contract with HBO. Somewhere in that contract(just like actors and anyone else involved), there might be something in there restricting him from publicly criticizing the show, but there’s definitely a clause about spoiling future episodes. Is it unprofessional, yeah.. sorta. It’s also not something he should be slammed for or overly praised for. This isn’t a victory for fans that have been critical, it’s an alarm to anyone who was still optimistic.

[@gattzflappa6306]

So in your mind GRRM is unprofessional because he voiced his issues with the show publicly, when you know he brought this up privately to the show runners, and was disregarded. Do you think that getting a contract to adapt a previous work, and then adapting said work unfaithfully while actively disregarding the original creators wishes is in any way unprofessional? Do you think GRRM might have a legitimate reason to worry about the show runners making significant changes to the storyline given what happened to the original GOT series? Imagine calling Da'vinci unprofessional because he complained that the museum director changed the Mona Lisa's hairline.

[@TalkingThrones]

Well said. It's a damn shame we've found ourselves in this same situation again. George should walk away from this show, completely, and just focus on WINDS.

[@DCharles]

Dude, yeah. A couple years ago I thought that if HOTD struggled, it’d be for very different reasons than GoT. Unfortunately, they seem to be forcing it to have these similar issues. I wonder how the Night King will make a world altering cameo in Dunk & Egg now.. 😞

[@LuciusYano]

@@DCharlesflash forward to summer hall egg says hes trying to bring dragons back in preparation for the long night, as he was told about aegon I prophecy, flashes of fire and a kid playing a harp in a burnt castle all framed as a dragon dream

[@beige_projection]

George's close friend, Xiran Jay Zhao, made a Tumblr post, saying that they hung out with George recently and that he told them more of his criticisms on HoTD, and that compared to what he told them, what he wrote on his blog is very mild. Zhao also said that just because George didn't write about other points in the show doesn't mean he approves of them. Heavily implying that as we've speculated, George has much more problems with the show than just B&C and Maelor The Missing. I personally am frustrated with the show. I'm a book reader but not a book purist. I can say that honestly because I love Viserys and Alicent so much from S1 and they're so very different from their book versions. However, I'm so disappointed with the show mainly with how they handled Alicent's character. I think S2 Alicent is unrecognizable from S1 Alicent, and that her character writing has departed from sense. So I'm arguing here from the show-only perspective. Them departing from the themes and the vibes of the book was hard for me but not enough for me to drop the show. But the destruction of Alicent's character at the finale is the final straw for me. I really thought Alicent was one of the best written and compelling characters in S1 and it all went down the drain with that scene with Rhaenyra in the S2 finale. I'm out of this show. and I'm extremely happy that George called it out.

[@valerievanwyk6122]

G.R.R.M., J.R.R .Tolkien and George Lucas are sitting in a talk show studio, and Oprah is there representing Hollywood, going "You get a fanfiction! You get a fanfiction! And you get a fanfiction!!"

[@jessjess23brooks89]

I don't care if it is unprofessional. Let it rip G-dog ☕ These writers think they can improve on the work of a master. The ego, the hubris of Ryan's team... They deserve this slap of reality.

[@samf.s.7731]

What bothers me is that Ryan could have thrown HBO under the bus and said they are forcing them to do A B C D and E... But he hasn't yet. And I think it means if he were to say something, he would get into an argument with Zaslav and gets Sapochniked/Yaitased. I think one day he may write about this though.

[@DCharles]

Condal isn’t going to throw his career away to win fan support.

[@Stay_Zerose]

I am 99% sure this was George firing warning shots. No mention of Nettles his favourite character being scraped entirely, he could keep going and his friends have attested to that, he is basically trying to convince the writer's not to leave him out of the discussion and to listen to him. And if the take down time was any indication he got their attention FAST

[@humbleopulence]

Those who call this move unprofessional clearly don't know how Hollywood works. In Hollywood, no one cares about source material and no one has any moral value. If George got to the point where not one but TWO major series are shitting on his works, which the audience has long since proven to be more attracted to than anything HBO serves up, he has no choice but to sound the alarm bells like this. It means he got nowhere with all the other available avenues to him and this is his last chance to FORCE the writers' hands and make them appear so bad that HBO mandates a change for season 3. Had he not exhausted his other options before this, I might agree. But considering he's been callously lied to about the treatment of his own children.... Well.... He gets to go scorched earth in my book.

[@DCharles]

YOU don’t know how Hollywood works. There’s a reason that post was taken down.

[@humbleopulence]

@@DCharles ive worked on Netflix productions and have friends who worked on HBO productions. I know enough, friend. The post was likely taken down because of bad optics and George likely knew this would happen. He's not dumb. He knows how the internet works. Im simply putting two and two together here

[@DCharles]

Then you would know that there’s certainly a clause in that contract about disclosing outlines for scripts.

[@humbleopulence]

@@DCharles certainly. Not just for outlines. For any production plans, in theory. But its highly unlikely that they'd sue George. Besides, i doubt he thought it'd go any other way. He needed the word out. The fact they asked him to delete the post is even better for his purposes, if his idea was, Indeed, to make HBO listen to him through public pressure. Its a win win for George. He doesn't need the post to stay up.

[@DCharles]

It’s definitely not a good look to have it taken down. It inflames the conversation.

[@capybaraenthusiast101]

I haven’t read the books (they’ve been on my shelf for years unread I just don’t have time) but I have been watching asoiaf content creators for years because I’m a fan of the lore and a fan of literature in general. I’m really worried about how the show is going to end up especially with the seeds they’ve planted. Rhaenyra’s whitewashing frustrated me to no end but I had to keep justifying it by saying to myself she was a mirror of her father and his inaction. I have to keep justifying and lying to myself about ‘enjoying’ the series when the changes have bothered me a lot. And I’m not even a book reader!

[@jjosifovic]

They do EVERYTHING for Rhaenyra. 1. Changing characters like aegon and making him a a grapist that like child fight to show he is a worse person than rt. 2. Eliminating characters like the silent 5, nettles, and maelor because they make rhaenyra character worse is biased. 3. Changing events to make the audience to hate the greens such as blood and cheese shows biased. 4. Creating a prophecy and getting an animal that proves divine leadership shows the biased of the writers for rhaenyra. The butchering of Alicent character was not really surprising but I still had hope…..a fools hope. To me its unprofessional when the author gives u the right to create from the source material that doesnt mean u can do whatever u want with no repercussions.

[@jennifera.4511]

It's shocking, to say the least, that people defend big companies instead of the author of the story, and these very same people are the same who criticize capitalism, hypocrites lmao If casuals don't care about source material they have no business expressing themselves about George's post, but the show is not exclusively for them: it's for the largest number possible of people otherwise the story wouldn't be so watered down. Apparently the deal regarding HBO's adaptations of his books is quite aggressive and now I understand why he doesn't finish his books lmao

[@itsmainelyyou5541]

Okay, this is only a perspective of an admittedly bitter book centric: The reason the concept even exists is _because_ a man wrote an epic. A marvelous epic, arguable one of the very best. So yes, the book readers are the ones who would support and keep this gravy train going. Forever, if they did it right. I have no impetus or real drive to even watch Dunk and Egg- they are more simplistic stories, you'd think they couldn't screw that up. But so far, they screwed every adaptation beyond reproach. They'll find a way to ruin this too. What's the point? Etiquette? Ruining a man's magnum opus and it's branch tales is a total breach of etiquette. Thinking they are anywhere near the wordsmiths, as clever or have enough of a grasp world history to draw from to make sweeping changes to stories they fundamentally apparently don't understand well enough to appropriately infer is a bigger insult in my estimation. It's not about physically seeing it, it's all about the underlying emotional weight. Show B&C didn't have it. Maelor an innocent being ripped apart not happening(it doesn't have to be graphically shown, just implied) won't show the full horror of war. Those two scenes are seminal to the story. What it does to their mother is the story. They ARE the story. Nettles, also seminal- gives proof to the lie of Targaryen supremacy. It shows that the whole war has no true meaning. The are the emotional innocent sacrifices. They are the lesson. The story is poor imitation without them. They've ruined this story, that's why people don't connect with it. It's shallow characterization dragon show, with bad writing by people who lack the emotional depth. Sorry about that, it stings, rant over.

[@Al4___]

I hate it, they made one story that had unlimited potential into another feminist girl impowerment typical crap, even people who loved the first 4 seasons of GoT can't like the first two seasons of this thing, it's a monstrosity, Otto, Viserys, Aegon and kinda Larys are the only real characters in the story

[@BrandonNinja]

I'm glad GRRM is on my side. HOTD is garbage fan fiction.

[@bettinanielsen6336]

Nettles. He's referring to Nettles.

[@alexman378]

This reads like he very much did try to get through to them and got ignored.

[@ionutcristian9650]

I think they could have use her pointing out her son with little resistance as a reason for self deletion, but she got over it pretty fast so that's out the window 🤣.

[@SkyExplosion]

I get it. I thought the whole Second Season was a fuck up, and they are hardcore trying to paint the women as sympathetic, level headed, and good. They are not good. they are fucking horrible in the book. But HBO is so god damn scared of people calling them sexist they killed Aegon's dragon so now she won't even be fed to it and they just fucking cut Nettles out. Season 1 was good couple changes but good Season 2 is a diffrent story entirely. they are so afraid to paint Rhaenyra and Alicent as the worst rulers and cruel awful people who want war and blood all because their wahmen.

[@gingercatqueen4368]

I agree with you. I am a book fan. If people are enjoying the show. That’s fine. I am not. I am disappointed in too many little things and a few big things to want to continue watching it. I will keep watching your videos though. I enjoy them very much.

[@DCharles]

This is gonna be my last HOTD/rawtake for a while. I’m kinda out of it with little positive to add for now. Hopefully you’ll enjoy more ASOIAF/GoT themed content.

[@ALtheuncommonicedragon8360]

There is ppl out there now saying George is causing harassment to writing team with this statement which is just so delusional. We live in landscape where ppl harass cons just because. He has a right to speak on his opinion of the adaptation & onus is not on him for hate writers get as this stuff far far far predates blog post.

[@birdhead9943]

Twitter is full of this rn. And its worrying bc now something probably won't get done about it since the writers are seeing support for their version. So sick of all this shit honestly can we just get winds

[@travaughnanderson3958]

I am so heartbroken rn dawg i cant believe this. You can ask my family members i was freaking out for days when i heard they were making a series on the dance

[@Al4___]

I had some level of trust with HBO, and after two bad seasons of TV I feel like that trust if fully gone, they ruined GoT, WestWorld, The Last of Us and now this, I won't be looking forward to any HBO stuff anymore

[@MyWickedSmile]

Yea I never forgive them for casting Bella Fucking Ramsay for Ellie, what the fuck were they thinking? I thought she did fantastic as Lady Mormont, but as Ellie it’s a big turn off.

[@mintkit1064]

I'm hoping the messy season 2 was due to the scripts being done before the strikes and not getting reworked. And the lack of budget for episodes. Hoping season 3 will be more decisive and just pull it together.

[@birdhead9943]

A lot of it is sara hess too let's be honest

[@myaalexander354]

As someone who works in television I think George felt he had no options left but to pull the emergency lever. It may not have been the most politically professional move, but back in GOT s4 he was politely warning the network that D&D were fucking up and they paid him dust. So it’s not like he hasn’t been playing by the rules for well over a decade just to have them spit in his face again. Only this time the source material is there with plenty of room for creative interpretation, yet the disrespect they’re showing to the IP is just inexcusable. Yeah, he is probably in breach speaking about Ryan’s outline but are they really going to sue him? Of course not. I respect the hell out of him for using the clout he has left to try and stop the sabotage before it’s too late. He got his point across. They need to course correct or lose his support and a fair chunk of the fandom along with it.

[@iceyardfan4394]

"I dont want to see that" Watch a different show then.

[@DCharles]

What are you referring to?

[@dudeguys6362]

Season 1 was really good. Season 2 was the first 80% of something really good. The missing 2 episodes is borderline unforgivable. I feel like an idiot because when they said the 8 episodes was for "story purposes", I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

[@astrinymris9953]

I've thought of a way the show can replace Maelor. We know that after generations of randy Targaryen princes and Lyseni sailors there are Targeryen-looking children in King's Landing. Exhibit A: Gaemon Palehair. So... Alicent sends Jaehaera out of the city for her protection, and Jaehaera reaches her destination safely. But at the same time, a man is trying to leave the city with his half-Lyseni daughter, who is roughly about Jaehaera's age. A crowd assumes that this is the young princess traveling incognito with her protector... and they exact same scenario which happens with Maelor in the book goes down. The man is killed trying to protect his daughter while protesting the false identification, and the poor terrified child is ripped to bits in search of the reward money. Unfortunately, the news of this tragedy reaches Helaena before the message confirming that the real Jaehaera arrived safely. The distraught young mother commits suicide... with all the consequent downstream effects.

[@frostycane5134]

Wow I can’t believe I was wrong . I thought his blog post was going to shit on his fans for disliking season 2

[@bridgetofold5645]

He is sending a warning. We have already been through this with GOT, he did not realky speak out about the last few seasons of GOT and fans both book and causal were traumatized so much we are still angry 5 years later. HOTD is on the same path. Production value, great but the story is falling a part. I am not going to wait 2 years in hope it will get better just to see that hope murdered before my eyes like Helena's son. That is what happened in 2019 and Im not going through it again. We cant even re-watch GOT because you know how it ends. I will not be re-watching HOTD over the next two years and I will not watch HOTD in the future until it is well over. Unprofessional or not. Thank you George.

[@justinczech1489]

Yes yes GRRM, HOTD was disappointing FINISH WINDS FUCK

[@ForzaMara]

I can see House of the Dragon becoming The Last Jedi of this franchise, and Ryan Condal becoming the new Rian Johnson.

[@DavidCarradinesBelt]

Whats interesting is that the writers are obviously pro-green but theyre cutting out all the story beats that would feed into the narrative theyve been spinning since the show started which is no matter what Aegon & Aemond do Rhaenyra had "bastards" and is married to Daemon so by default shes the bad one regardless of the fact the show is showing you that the narrative of the Greens is at least to this point still largely propaganda. If Condal & crews whole goal was to do the Dany turn again with Rhaenyra then you might as well kiss any chance of the Dunk & Egg show being successful goodbye. I enjoy HoTD for the dragons and getting to see them on screen and hope that one day we're going to get a show where the main Targaryen isnt secretly evil the whole time. I still dont believe GRRM wrote all that background and lore just for Robert Baratheon to be revealed as the only one with the correct opinion of them, which is that the children should be killed along with the men while the women should be raped before being killed as well

[@sarwatarannya8786]

How are the writers pro-green are you nuts lmao. Targ glazing is bad enough, but how can you come watching this show believing that writers favour the greens

[@DavidCarradinesBelt]

@@sarwatarannya8786Name one thing rhaenyra did that the greens didn’t harp endlessly on about how bad she was regardless of how mundane it was? Everything Rhaenyra does is framed as bad or evil whereas there’s a mountain of excuses for everything the greens do, whether it’s killing Luke or Aemond trying to kill Aemond they’ll give the greens some speech that washes them of all responsibility or just plain ignores it completely like Aegon with the maid while with rhaenyra they beat it into the ground whatever her “crime” was before giving her a line or two defending or clarifying her actions/intentions

[@jjosifovic]

@@DavidCarradinesBelt They do EVERYTHING for Rhaenyra. Changing characters like aegon and making him a a grapist that like child fight to show he is a worse person than rt. Eliminating characters like the silent 5, nettles, and maelor because they make rhaenyra character worse is biased. Changing events to make the audience to hate the greens such as blood and cheese shows biased. Creating a prophecy and getting an animal that proves divine leadership shows the biased of the writers for rhaenyra. Did they writers change things to make the greens sympathetic yes, but to me the writers have overly whitewashed Rhaenyra because their obvious team black.

[@Timquan.]

What kills me the most about the show is how hard its self sabotaging itself in order to tell the story from a certain angle. Some people blame the narrative's shortcomings on using Rheanyra and Alicent as the 2 main lenses in which we are viewing the entire conflict. That is not the problem and actually a great angle to take as they both are 2 different examples of westerosi femininity. The problem comes in with how they try to interject current modern day Feminist ideals WITH NO REGARD for the world's characters traditions, or Governments. Condel and Hess dont want to tell a story of two friends made enimies and their families fighting over the throne due to the clashing values of, lust, duty, privledge, honor, fear, and revenge. No, instead they want to write a fan fiction about a privileged princess who is somehow the greatest victim of the very patriarchy that allows her the autonomy to enjoy her self indulgent and rather legally destructive lifestyle as she wields the power of this very patriarchy to to hurt, mock and outmaneuver those who actually adhere to the standing laws, weather they be Male or Female. Alicent gets depicted as this ambitious hater, mad that she wasnt born a girl boss and should be ashamed of tending to her duties and wondering into a higher station instead of being born there. The show goes out of its way to demean her and what she symbolizes when she is in fact one of the biggest victims of the patriarchy. Alicent was coerced into marying the King by her Father. She was forced to by law, to lay with Viserys and grant him Children (marital rape) And forced to care for these children that Viserys couldn't give less fucks about, as he constantly spoiled Rheanyra and neglected his other children. Alicent who has to face the full brunt of being a woman in Westeros still has to go as low as using her body to secure her alliance with Larys. This is play many noble women are taught and forced to use in the Game of Thrones, Cersei herself a prime example. but never the royal women. Rheanys never used her body suggestively, she used her title as princess to forge Marriage Alliances, Same as Rheanyra who was never forced to seduce someone for gain or survival. They had no reason to because they are fully backed by the patriarchy. But yet they both have the nerve to call her a prisoner or a beholden dog of the patriarchy when she has been one of the few key people keeping the realm running and stable as Viserys fell apart and Rheanyra fled to Dragonstone to create true born kids that would most certainly not do much to improve the claims and saftey of her bastard boys (seriously she has no political savy but yet they have the nerve to pass her off as smart or misunderstood ). The show never in a meta sense acknowledges Alicent's plights or when and where she is right, however the show will flip character intellect and dynamincs in a heart beat if it meant making Rheanyra look more just, or harrowing. Dont even get me started on how the dynamics and use of sex between Alicent and the Greens is treated totaly more viciously by the show compared to Rheanyra and team Black. Like its wierd how much they want us to cheer for Rheanyra and hate Alicent and the Greens when this story is supposed to be the tragic downfall of a family, not the valiant rise of a great feminist over a leser woman and her bigoted family. Like why use the Team Black vs Team Green marketing if yall gonna implement 5 seperate prophicies that annoints Rheanyra as the best and only choice, It insults our intelligence.

[@DavidCarradinesBelt]

All of that and didn’t actually say anything. Pretending Alicent is a victim here is hilarious you truly are mentally challenged

[@TheNovaimmortal]

Helaenas not pregnant and Aegon can no longer get it up period after being burned.

[@samf.s.7731]

I have to say the thumbnails and the titles are a bit harsh. His intention was to express disagreement with adaptation choices .. Not to personally attack Condal and Hess. Though the internet would love to spin it that way. It's primarily about his work.

[@DCharles]

Fair

[@JayR-lu1gp]

In my opinion its NOT BOOK ADAPTION TO SCREEN BUT THEIR OWN IDEAS THAT DONT REALLY BENEFIT THE STORY IT WAS ALOT OF THINGS WE COULD HAVE DONE WITHOUT AND ALOT OF THINGS THEY COULD HAVE KEPT SO I UNDERSTAND CHANGES but we get uneccessary changes to the story like rhaenys bursting through the dragonpit and then it never being mentioned by ANYONE AGAIN even rhaenyra and mysaria kiss scene they put it there with no buildup or anything and then abandon it afterward it was just a moment that DONESNT MATTER AT ALL TO THE STORY daemon killing the heir aemond killing lucerys its all an accident they didnt mean for it, THE MOTIVATION FOR WAR TO BEGIN WITH THEY CHANGE THE CHARACTERS ACTIONS WHY WOULDNT THEY CHANGE THEIR JURNEY THEY MADE GOT and HOTD THE SAME DESPITE IT BEING A DIFFERENT TIMELINE WITH ALL THESE CHANGES INCLUDING TO VISERYS and all the characters the CIVIL WAR as a whole the 7 kingdoms are split already which is why alicent asking rhaenyra to split the realm is meaningful instead we get stupid stuff like peace rhaenyra and alicent at kingslanding suggesting that they stand down AFTER HEIRS HAVE BEEN MURDERED A HORRIBLE DEATH FOR THEM BOTH and they want peace, they want to run away together do alp these things impact the story, we get mud wrestling in the middle of war people drinking and partying but its CIVIL WAR not just any normal war all the kingdoms have been tangled into the fighting except for those who didnt DECLARE FOR EITHER SIDE AEGON DIDNT HAVE MUCH SUPPORT OVER RHAENYRA AND IT WAS HARDER FOR AEGON TO GAIN SUPPORT THAN RHAENYRA BUT HOW WELL DO THE WRITERS KNOW THE STORY LEGITIMATELY OR DO THET WANT TO CHANGE THE ENTIRE STORY BECAUSE THEY WILL CHANGE MORE AND WILL NOT BE IMPACTFUL OR MEANINGFUL THEY WILL CHANGE THE DEATHS, THE ENDING, THE IN BETWEENS THEY ALREADY CHANGED ALL THE CHARACTERS SO OFC I LOST FAITH IN THIS SHOW i mean there is alot of things they left unexplained like in season 1 rhea royce cousin storyline with daemon we didnt see that completed it is tuings they left unfulfilled i could go into a lot more detail that the moral of the story sucks there are no true character developement or growth in fact its flipped... the story JUST DRIFTS SO FAR APART FROM THE PAGES OF FIRE AND BLOOD THEY PISS ON FIRE AND BLOOD AND TELL THE BOOKREADERS LIKE MYSELF TO GO FUCK OURSELVES 😂 BUT THEY MESSING UP THE STORY THEIR OWN STORY IS EVEN CONTRADICTING

[@gattzflappa6306]

Being true to the books isn't pandering to book readers. If HBO wanted to make their own medieval fantasy they could have done that, but they chose to ADAPT the game of thrones BOOKS. Treating the show as if it were separate from the books is cope. GRRM has poured his life into this work and he has every right to tell the public that it's being mishandled.

[@xxPARAMOREFANMANxx]

I really don’t like this narrative that it’s “book fans” who are upset with the show. There is a specific subset of book fans who are upset with certain decisions made in the show, who are then making leaps in logic that are just overtly pessimistic. Game of thrones is my favorite book series all time, I love HOTD, and I’m not alone. There are plenty of book fans who have either very few or no problems with the show. And actually if you look at the overall reviews from both book fans and casual fans, it’s overwhelmingly positive. I loved how season two ended, sure nettles would’ve been nice to see in the actual show but I’m of the opinion that nettles is Daemons daughter either way, so it fits. Helena is now much more interesting than the simpleminded girl in the books, if you disagree cool but that goes to show my point, all of this is opinion. This is nothing like seasons 5-8 of game of thrones.

[@jesuscortez6047]

Finish your books George

[@Al4___]

I hate it, they made one story that had unlimited potential into another feminist girl impowerment typical crap, even people who loved the first 4 seasons of GoT can't like the first two seasons of this thing, it's a monstrosity, Otto, Viserys, Aegon and kinda Larys are the only real characters in the story

[@Al4___]

I hate it, they made one story that had unlimited potential into another feminist girl impowerment typical crap, even people who loved the first 4 seasons of GoT can't like the first two seasons of this thing, it's a monstrosity, Otto, Viserys, Aegon and kinda Larys are the only real characters in the story