German Tracked AFV Classifications

[@ilocosmetro]

"Babe, wake up! HandGrenadeDivision just uploaded a video!"

[@sintenal4078]

Ha, I too chirped aloud at seeing Hand Grenade Division dropping an upload!

[@fallschirmjagerfilms4167]

when I saw that Hand Grenade Division had a new upload I dropped everything I was doing.

[@SmittyMRE]

Ooh you play this stuff close to your chest! I didn’t expect you to have a video ready to drop and was pleasantly surprised to see this pop up in my feed

[@typxxilps]

accurate to the double points above the a to make the Panzerjager a real Panzerjäger which are differently pronounced. No german know a Jager, but a Jäger, which means hunter or as Panzerjäger tank hunter. Well done ! Chapeau !

[@akashi5763]

Great video! It’s worth noting that in a letter by Von Manstein dated to the 8 of June, 1936, he described that the sturmartillerie (sturmgeschütz) should also be usable as “indirect fire as part of the divisional artillery with a range of about 7 kilometres.” On top of that he also says that it could “be a preferred offensive anti-tank weapon and can possibly replace the division’s anti-tank battalion.” It’s fascinating how blurred the lines became between vehicles in German doctrine, let alone actual combat usage.

[@franciszeklatinik889]

Thank you for making this video

[@artinrahideh1229]

Yesss! I've been waiting.

[@MAAAAAAAAAA123]

Love your channel, good content as always. As to 3:30, I get your point in general. There is a scene also in band of brothers where they show the battle of Nuenen in Holland, and Easy company is fighting with the 23rd Hussars which also shows multiple British tanks fighting alongside each other, like the Sherman (75mm not Firefly) and Cromwell fighting alongside each other. Even though generally it was either one or the other in certain units, in the case 11th Armoured usually it had Cromwells in the recon/hussar role and regular Sherman’s as the main battle tanks, tho Sherman Fireflies were paired with both. The scene you are talking about even involved 17th SS division troops and 6. FJ regiment fighting literally side by side and intermixed at times. I’ve actually been to the Bloody gultch battle site before, and I can certainly think of things that bothered me more about that scene: namely, there were no Jagdpanthers in Normandy until way later, and even then they were used against the British during operations like Bluecoat and not the Americans. You are right about them being organized in distinct units, but the German tendency to pull together kampfgruppes from different units within a division and the allies of having their own task forces (I‘ve found more than a few photos of M36’s operating with Shermans due to the 90mm’s killing power, for example) makes me think it was more common than you might think, even on the company level.

[@MAAAAAAAAAA123]

Sometimes even organizationally too there was some mixing. The 21st Panzer Division in Normandy (famous for converting French vehicles into TD variants unique to their division) had Stug companies with hotchkiss ‘Geschutzwagons’, with a mix of 10.5cm howitzers (for a more artillery role) and 7.5cm PAK guns. But I have no doubt that in that case it was the exception to the rule.

[@geoffbarney5914]

He should do a video on the 21st Panzer division. They literally had a factor producing their own vehicles.

[@HandGrenadeDivision]

All excellent points, and the variability of Kampfgruppen is indeed legendary. The BoB film implies though that this kind of integration would have been done within platoons, which stretches the imagination just a bit further than my own threshold of willing suspension of disbelief. I've learned in studying history never to say never, but also developed a feeling that in various media (film, books, TV, reenactments, living history, etc.) one should aim to present a diet of "the rule" rather than "the exception." Accounting for dramatic and artistic license, of course. You mention being to Bloody Gulch. I am sure you found the actual battlefield was much bigger than depicted in the film. Certainly the area around Foy was heavily compressed on screen. This is obviously for visual interest and a necessity in film projects in order to remain interesting and let the viewer comprehend what is happening, who is who, and where they are in relation to each other. All that said, the German armour was a joy to see on screen, ditto the mixed Allied tank platoons, though for those in the know, it had the unintended effect of making what must have been an enormously expensive series look like a small-budget production. Which is ironic given the blood, sweat, tears and dollars that must have been poured into those armour conversions. It was so impressive I won't even point out the Sherman M4A1s were actually Grizzlies with Canadian Dry Pin tracks giving them away. Thanks for taking the time to comment, I enjoyed reading it.

[@MAAAAAAAAAA123]

@@HandGrenadeDivision yeah it is a treat to see vehicles like that represented in media. One thing I do find strange is that you rarely see Panzer IV’s and Panthers in major productions. I think they showed a couple already knocked out at the beginning of “Fury”. I know at least some are being used by re-enactors, but I guess Hollywood would rather go all the way and just use Tigers or mock ups of other heavy tanks instead

[@TheRealDill93]

Great video. Perfect length too. Longer than a short. But short enough to watch quickly.

[@EnSayne987]

The replacement of towed AT guns with vehicles does make sense at least in theory as long as the vehicles are available because tank destroyers have two major advantages over towed guns - they have more maneuverability which can be a lifesaver and they have armor protection. Even the lightly armored ones are more protective than just nothing. Of course this comes with the con of being larger and harder to conceal but some battlefields didn't allow for thorough concealment of an AT gun anyway without substantial effort. I do wonder about the AT effectiveness of a Semovente M42 over a PaK 40 though, does seem like a bit of a downgrade

[@HandGrenadeDivision]

The 3rd Company of the AT battalion, which I left out for simplicity, was equipped with anti-aircraft guns, so I suspect the Panzerjäger Abteilung was considered something of an all-purpose support organization. The 65th was also deployed to Italy, where tank combat was restricted to the low-lying areas of the valleys and coastal plains. It's interesting to note that two of the division's three Knight's Cross recipients belonged to regimental anti-tank companies (using towed equipment), earned at Anzio where US armor paid a high price. One of the geographical features the Germans referred to was "Panzerstraße", named after the large number of US tanks they knocked out on it.

[@EnSayne987]

@@HandGrenadeDivision Yeah I'm not saying that towed AT was just useless, it was very effective if it could be protected from other threats and probably preferable to TDs in some circumstances but from a very generalized perspective armored vehicles are better in other cases. This is perhaps part of the logic that the tanks shifted more to anti-tank duties along with the primary issue of economy and the urgent need to have as many AT platforms as possible

[@HandGrenadeDivision]

@@EnSayne987 I think you make a good case.

[@GenMaj_Knight]

This is true from what I've heard. The main objective with towed AT is kill what you can as quickly as possible. It should be noted some of the best performers were AT guns in the range of the Germany 50mm and shorter 75mm, or the U.S. and U.K.'s 6 Pounder/57mm M1, or Italy's 47/40 and 75/34 towed guns. You don't hear much about LATE WAR 88mm, 90mm, or 17pdr towed guns because they had a tendency to give off a massive report, and being such large guns, without the armor to back it up. By the end when pretty much everyone had multiple crew optics, long-range guns, and electric turret traverse systems, there was no hope for the towed AT. (I should note they actually continued to see service and still do to this day, but one of the most prominent examples, the Russian 2A45 Sprut, has an onboard engine for short range tactical movement.)

[@tostie3110]

@@GenMaj_Knight Yep, that is also how Mooyman got his Knight's Cross. Quickly knocking out one T34 tank after another

[@wdsp69]

Good work.

[@yungcaco1443]

This channel is awesome 💯👌🏻

[@smaragd1238]

Nice one, although you missed the chance to explain the difference between a Panzerjäger and Jagdpanzer

[@HandGrenadeDivision]

Perhaps, but truth be told, I just kicked it down the road. Panzerjäger replaced the earlier term Panzerabwehr. The former was more aggressive than the latter, but from what I can tell didn't accompany any formal change in unit structure, equipment or role. I had included some of that in the script but realized I was very quickly going down the rabbit hole and I wanted to avoid another 30 minute dissertation.... the actual formal name of the Panzerjäger I would have taken ten minutes to explain all on its own. 4.7 cm PaK(t) (Sf) auf Panzerkampfwagen I ohne Turm

[@KevinSmith-yh6tl]

Dumped the vid I was watching to tune into your new episode! 👍 (EDIT) For some reason, my notification was turned off. Makes you wonder how that happened, RIGHT? YOOOOUTUUUU.......

[@GenMaj_Knight]

Do you usually use Halo music in the background? I swear the background music at the end of this video is heard in Halo 3 on the Ark.

[@HandGrenadeDivision]

All music is fully credited. I don't have exclusive rights so it is very possible others have also licensed it.

[@GenMaj_Knight]

​@@HandGrenadeDivision Lol I missed the credits at the end even though I scrolled through the description trying to see after you commented, however an interesting connect-the-dots appeared. Kevin MacLeod worked on the ilovebees ARG for Halo 2, and after looking through more of his music, there seems to be more than a few tracks that sound very close to Halo OSTs, although none are exactly the same and you can audibly hear the difference. It's pretty interesting that someone who worked on a piece of Halo media went on to produce tons of Royalty Free Music, some of which sounds just like a franchise he worked with back in 2004. In particular: MacLeod's "Firesong," sounds like "The Battle Begins," from Halo Reach. (about 30 seconds in) The ending song from this video, "Decisions," sounds like a lot of the ambient music from Halo 3: ODST or the Ark mission like I said before from Halo 3 The ending of his song "Unseen Horrors," mimics some of the Flood's music, like Halo 3's "Gravemind." Lastly, his "Long Harvest," sounds like his own rendition of Halo 3: ODST's "Neon Night," or "Deference for Darkness."

[@oh_scheibe1878]

What about translating the Riebert Manual and understandingthe material? Page by page?

[@HandGrenadeDivision]

It's an interesting idea, though I'm not sure it would make for a decent video. You can find the printed version of the English translation for sale at www.germanmanuals.com/REmanuals.html (use the search page feature to find Reibert, the translated book is called Service Instruction in the Army).

[@oh_scheibe1878]

@@HandGrenadeDivision english manual. Thank you so much I accidentally bought the full Deutsch off of Amazon.

[@HandGrenadeDivision]

@@oh_scheibe1878 happy to help. Hang on to your German one, sometimes it is interesting to compare English translations back to the source material to double-check meanings as some terms don't easily translate and English translators take guesses that aren't necessarily the best guesses.

[@Rignite1801]

Great vids, seen you've been gone for a couple months, you coming back?

[@HandGrenadeDivision]

I appreciate the kind words, and the concern. Plenty of ideas in the pipeline, very little time to work on it all. Did shoot something a little different this summer, a short (fictional) film set at Anzio, still editing and putting it together. Might wait until it is good and cold out to release it, the sight of my sunburned friends will keep me warm over Christmas. Thank you

[@Rignite1801]

@@HandGrenadeDivision I'm glad to hear you are good and the ideas are there, that film sounds good, good luck editing it and putting it together, release it once you think its at the best quality, you know? Hope you have a good winter, stay safe dude!

[@daveJDB]

Interesting.

[@Calbrador]

i disagree on the part that tank destroyers had light armour only in the early makeshift stages yes but later no

[@HandGrenadeDivision]

I had put a category in the table about speed, realizing that the US M18 could do 80+ kph on roads, because of its light armour. I presumed the German vehicles were the same but when I went to double-check my sources I found that the later German TDs were no faster than the tanks. Probably because they used the same hull, chassis and drivetrains. Which implies the other major weights - armour, ammunition, fuel, crew - were about the same or so close as not to affect performance. So I quietly dropped the column from the table. But it does kind of reinforce the notion that the different nationalities approached their designs, and definitions, a bit differently from one another. You're right, the table does reflect the early vehicles more so than the later ones.

[@John.McMillan]

@@HandGrenadeDivision Odly enough, despite the "Blitzkrieg" being arguably the most famous act of the Germans in WW2, they really didnt make much attempt at fast vehicles beyond 1941. Scout cars being pretty much it, other than that it was mostly reliance on older loghter tanks to be quick when need be. The Germans figured the Pz.IV and StuG were fast enough with recon using smaller vehicles or things like the SdKfz 234 varients.

[@John.McMillan]

Only thing I think of when I see the name and icon of this channel is the Dirlewanger Brigade.

[@HandGrenadeDivision]

65th was definitely a run of the mill vanilla division that earned very little in the way of accolades or attention. Perhaps this channel will help dispel the association of the grenade and that most distasteful brigade.

[@John.McMillan]

@@HandGrenadeDivision Most certainly, this channel is very good for its content. As far as the 65th all I can recall about the division is that it fought in Italy from I think start to finish, Dirlewanger's infamy is just why I think of his bregade when I hear "Hand grenade division", probably because that's what Dr. Mark Felton referred to them as some time ago.

[@noelblack8159]

Ooh, noice