🏉 Get Rid of Scrums in Rugby League and Rugby Union? Ninh explains ...

Should we get rid of scrums in Rugby? In both Rugby League and Rugby Union - the scrum is a method of restarting play. But has it become antiquated? A waste of time? Pointless? Does anyone actually care? Ninh explains why we should or should not get rid of the scrum.
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Video: Copyright Ninh Ly 2020, RFL, BBC, Sky Sports, Fox Sports, RFU
Images: Various
Music: ‘Cut & Run’ by Kevin MacLeod
Narrated, Directed and Produced by Ninh Ly
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#scrum #rugby #worldcup #rugbyleague #rugbyunion #rfl #rfu #ninhlyuk

[@NinhLyUK]

What are your thoughts? Comments please! EDIT: So many dislikes from people who never actually watched the video. Such uptightness!

[@TheMrPeteChannel]

Make them safer. And feed the ball down the center in Leauge forcing teams to push.

[@NinhLyUK]

That's one way of sorting out the 'I'm not trying' problem.

[@kimarabutt]

Penalties should be able to be taken anywhere across the field. An infringement on the sideline is less likely to result in points than one closer to the center of the field.

[@WillCarrollHamilton]

they do role the ball down the middle in union

[@greenwhitechequered9885]

The point of scrums in rugby league is also to remove the forwards from play to have a more exciting play with only backs for a tackle. But this doesn't happen as teams break the scrum early and fill the scrum with backs anyway, so its pointless.

[@matts9474]

Scrums are a good part of union as they provide spacing for backs to attack backs in open field. It's like the only time when the field becomes that open and leads to a lot of creativity.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, exactly.

[@markbenedid5828]

But also it shows how strong your pack is compared to the opposing side but, I agree to have that much field for a cross-kick, switches, or really any play requires an open field.

[@megaluke007]

A suggestion might be to downsize the number of players on the field? I'm not being a cynical league fan by saying that. I think union is better, but could you take some influence from league and rid the scrum of the flankers?

[@adambrown1719]

Kind of has the same effect in league if you can execute the play off the scrum you have a really good chance of scoring cause it’s just backs on backs 9/10 rare occasions they leave forwards out of the scrum

[@fu8713]

Nah they SUCK! Slows down the game too much Make it more like rugby league, straight in and out ON WITH THE GAME Instead of spending HOURS on boring pointless scrums. JUST GET ON WITH THE GAME ✊✊😳😳

[@ratedpending]

"In rugby league, the word 'straight' isn't there" I'm weak

[@NinhLyUK]

It takes so little to please some people I guess?

[@ratedpending]

@@NinhLyUK i'm a simple man and i'm not ashamed

[@Moses_VII]

@@NinhLyUK especially people whose minds are too dirty

[@mondayrhymes7340]

The 2019 rwc final proves that the scrum is still alive and well in union

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes.

[@blueshells50]

new rules like "use it" have made the scrum wayyy better. I actually want Union to bring a league scrum in on a failure instead of a penalty kick as it becomes way too much of a competition for penalties when you are inside the 22 area

[@mwidunn]

Are you kidding me?! The scrum-halves just shamelessly rolled to ball to their own side. There was no contest. Go to: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qneTn4uArdR0isk. Look at 32:15 for just one (egregious) example..

[@mwidunn]

@@NinhLyUK Like, . . . no. Watch some RU games over the past 10 years, please.

[@chrisr5499]

And the 2019 final was a borefeast like 2007 and it was England v South Africa yet 2015 was the best final ever and it was an unoffical Bledisloe Cup.

[@hammerandtack]

An interesting idea would be removing the three man scrums in sevens. A tap off could speed up the game even further.

[@NinhLyUK]

I'm surprised that they don't do that already!

[@hammerandtack]

@@NinhLyUK suppose they are just attempting to stick to their Union roots

[@stephenhagen8976]

I've noticed more teams opted the the scrum in sevens this year because it ties up the defenders in one spot and allows you to shoot it across quick to a more open field. (I'd assume this is the same thinking in league, but I haven't watched it much.) I'd be happy with them removing it tho because it can make a knock-on a bigger advantage than a penalty.

[@oliverpearson9094]

It ties 3 players in to an area which allows more explansive playing for the backs which is good imo

[@stevenmcalister826]

@Yetimelly57 lor more athletic players? Have you played sevens?

[@rahmatramadhan9874]

I casually watch both sports, and someone told me that the little actual use of League scrums is to bunch up the forwards, making it more backs vs backs (even tho only for a split second because piss weak scrum).

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, that's the idea, because it's very rare that you win the ball. But it's still a waste of time

[@MasterModoc]

Union forwards are a different monster with a different agenda than the backs. League tends to homogenize to much. The "scrunch" up the backs idea kinda barely works because 2nd phase is almost always loose forwards off of a crash. Union ball, the pack sets more of the tone. Relentelessly grinding on a pack pays dividends the last 20.

[@TheOrganicOverdose]

I agree with you, mate. Though there have been some pretty significant tries scored off the back of scrums in recent rugby league history (last 10 years or so). I will also point out that Rugby League is a very high intensity sport and players in the middle are typically running forwards and backwards 10 to 15 metres per play. A scrum often gives an excuse for a much needed break in play and players would be loathe to give that up. Especially the forwards, I imagine. There is a certain pride in packing the scrum, not to mention the traditional positional naming which derive specifically from how the players set up on the field at the scrum.

[@NinhLyUK]

Thanks! Whilst that's very true, and you're right about the facts that you present ... I don't believe in giving people 'breaks' via the scrum - especially the team that committed the infraction. I used to play at hooker for my local Rugby League team and the actually started timing scrums because people were taking advantage and really slowing the play down to give themselves some breathing room. Most of the refs that ruled our games insisted that no teams rests during the game ... because this isn't Union!

[@tychu9]

I agree with you on this one. My problem with Union Scrums is that it looks like a clusterf**k. Penalties seem to be called for random reasons. One team turned the wrong way, they were pushed to much or pushed the other team too much, the defending and offensive team touches the ball to early and at different times. Just make a clearer and cleaner version of what’s suppose to happen is all I want

[@NinhLyUK]

They do, I agree. It can be annoying as hell when they spend all day to form a clean scrum and then one team pointlessly gives away an accidental penalty. I agree - make it cleaner, make it simpler, make it quicker!

[@alexanderwallace7551]

Its also important to remember that pushing only occurs in Rugby Union scrums once you reach a certain age (for safety reasons). Their only purpose is to teach kids how to form a scrum so pushing can be added when you reach the appropriate age.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, that's right.

[@moocowp4970]

When did that change? We used to push in our scrums when I was 11 years old and playing at school (I'm 34 now, so this is over 20 years ago, but I'm still curious when it changed)

[@DoctorCyan]

@@moocowp4970 I'd imagine it happened after one too many children got their shoulders twisted backwards

[@neill392]

@@NinhLyUK Not really, there is a push, but restricted to 1.5 meters for u18's.

[@buffscrum]

One of the problems with getting rid of the scrum in league is that it would eliminate one of few times the attacking team is not faced with a nearly full team of defenders spread across the pitch. I am much more of a union man, so I don't speak with any authority, but I imagine that having the feed in the attacking half must be like gold.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, that's the idea. I think it's an advantage in the lower leagues, but the top teams would have defended the line and tightened up way before the ball is played in any meaningful position.

[@michaelmoran9399]

The league scrum ties up eight of the thirteen players to a small area of the pitch when the ball comes back into open play the centres and wingers have more of the pitch to show us their skills .Just one of the reasons league is exciting to watch.

[@NinhLyUK]

In theory that's the case. In reality, good teams defend the line and the ball carrying team plays it out to the wings that are already covered.

[@michaelmoran9399]

@@NinhLyUK mine which is fact .more games are won and lost in rugby league by tries scored not penalties kicked union seem to play for penalties and would go for one in the kop if rules permitted it 😁

[@NinhLyUK]

@@michaelmoran9399 I don't dispute that.

[@robmcd]

I’d love to see line outs in league! Probably the best part of union. League is better to watch coz it’s fast; Union better to watch because it’s tactical. Chuck the scrum in league and increase field goals to 2 points coz the Matty Johns and Cooper Cronk’s of the world need to shine.

[@SportsFan838]

The whole Union is more tactical bullshit needs to stop

[@rorybone100]

This conversation really needs to happen in Union. I'm an old front row pig and in my playing days I absolutely relished the physical confrontation of the scrum. However, the scrum is killing our game as a spectacle. It has become an arm wrestle, a penalty generation machine. How often do we see a ref blowing penalty and we're scratching our heads?

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, absolutely correct! That is one of the downsides to Rugby Union scrums. The new rule changes have quickened the process up significantly, but try to force a non-sensical penalty will always be an issue.

[@zabaleta66]

Keep the scrum but all scrum penalties should be free kicks. A good scrum contest can be very absorbing! The game doesn't have to be entirely re-manufactured to cater to the ignorant!

[@CCCSaxsonWarmonger]

Boo

[@juannieto2559]

Nice to see my national team! Vamos los Pumas 🐆🇦🇷

[@NinhLyUK]

Those Pumas have incredible scrum skills!

[@juannieto2559]

@@NinhLyUK Yeah. Sometimes they aren't the best team but they play with a lot of heart and passion. That's what we call garra in Argentina.

[@NinhLyUK]

@@juannieto2559 I've seen them beat almost every country with their amazing scrum skills. The rest of the game needs to improve, but otherwise, I think they're very good!

[@swinephrog6428]

@@NinhLyUK imo Ayerza is one of if not the best prop ever

[@mattyisack1]

i think there's more chance of me falling asleep during a Union scrum. I love a good scrum but they just bring the game to a grinding halt. I remember during the last world cup changing the channel when they'd pack scrums, you'd change back 5 minutes later and they'd still be packing the same scrum.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yeah, that's technically true.

[@lukesurl]

And in perhaps the majority of cases the process ends with a penalty to the side with possession. Feels like you could shorten the whole process by just awarding the penalty from the start.

[@loganmcmillan4178]

Yes - this is rugby's biggest problem by far and something they should change if they want to grow the sport. They would be better off just awarding a free kick that you can't kick to touch immediately.

[@zoltanm8278]

I play union and think rugby league scrums are pointless and should be made similar to a union scrum or just taken out of the game. Rugby union scrums are an integral part of the game and are regularly exciting (example: Fiji vs Australia 2015 world cup). The only thing they should change in my opinion is to stop the clock while setting up the scrum, as this usually takes around a few minutes.

[@rich_jg5705]

The only reason for them is to manage time allowing a breather or open up potential blindside/wide plays. Could be replaced with a tap though.

[@zoltanm8278]

@@rich_jg5705 They still get rest when it's getting set up. It only means that they play out the full 80 minutes. Sometimes there are multiple collapsed scrums, and even 5 minutes can go away with the multiple resetting

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, totally agree with all of that.

[@jamescorr1301]

You can’t just remove an integral part of the game like scrummaging

[@NinhLyUK]

You didn't watch the entire video, did you?

[@Aimless_Guy]

@@NinhLyUK 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@nathancroucher90]

What an interesting and insightful channel. The research and time spent must quite an effort

[@NinhLyUK]

Thanks Nathan, I try my best!

[@3dsaulgoodman43]

I can't be the only one that loves Ninh for uploading so frequently now.

[@NinhLyUK]

Just trying to force my way over the 100k subscriber mark!

[@RDC113]

I like League scrums. Near the line they are an effective attacking tool with 'big lads' tied up in one place. I'd argue that they could only be awarded in the attaching half, a tap instead if in your own half. The stupidly named 'shot clock' has sped them up as well. I like Union scrums but are too often deliberately collapsed or infringed which really breaks down the flow of the game when they have to be restarted all the time. If they can sort that out then keep 'em.

[@RDC113]

Thinking about it, RL scrums are much more effective in junior and amateur games where defences are less well-drilled. And that's 90 percent of your games.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yeah, you have a point. At a high level, the advantage is negated, but in lower levels it's actually effective in League. As for Union, the recent rule changes have sped the game up massively, but the breakdowns are always going to be a thing.

[@saltyspaceman5697]

Keep scrums in Union. Its one of the main differences between the 2 sports and gives a position for big guys that doesn't necessarily require a lot of skill (front row, locks). It also gives a team a way to get advantage over the other team that doesn't exist in league. If you know what is going on and understand the battle that is going on between the 2 forward packs it makes scrums exciting. They need to stop the clock for scrums in Union- so there is no advantage in collapsing the scrum and slowing the game down. I also can't understand why you are not allowed to put your hand on the ground to stop it collapsing (front row) Get rid of scrums in league and restart with a tap or play the ball. They are pointless. I think the only reason they exist is so you can draw a line in the sand between the big straight running players and the elusive fast runners. But ultimately some of the best league players are jack-of-all-trades and can do both. There are fewer specialist positions in league.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, couldn't have said that better myself. Totally agree.

[@nouri388]

You can't put your hand on the ground as front row because if you put your hand on the ground you're not binding on the opponent and that can actually be dangerous because the scrum will not be tight as when the players bind

[@saltyspaceman5697]

@@nouri388 bollocks . I've played front row. I put my hand down many times to stop it collapsing. Sometimes the ref saw it - I got penalised .....sometimes he didn't It was hell of a lot safer than my head going straight into the ground. Former All Black prop Craig Dowd agrees www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/9837992/Shove-the-scrum-time-shambles-says-Dowd

[@zabaleta66]

@@saltyspaceman5697 Couldn't agree more about using the hand! It's a pedantic rule. My one concession to the more radical changes is I believe all scrum penalties should be free kicks. A lot of teams wouldn't play for the penalties then. A lot of pedantic rulings around the scrum would immediately be done away with......and that's a good thing!

[@BlueLiberty20]

As a rugby union fan, I’d like to see a little less scrums to keep the game moving faster. Maybe in tests they could try out letting the team awarded a scrum have a choice between a scrum or tap and go, and in the case of a penalty, a scrum still being an option.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yeah, that sounds fair.

[@joeltariq5613]

one of the reasons i like the scrum as a league fan is because it allows the backs to have the ball all to themselves for a little bit with little defence

[@uberplatinum1]

I think the Leagues (NRL and Super) should bring back contested scrums. There's a lot of vintage footage out there of League code games being played back in the 50s to the 80s where the scrums were still contested. They could easily instate similar safety rules like bind and set from Union into League.

[@spartanworrior4519]

uberplatinum1 thing is tho if you knock it on and then retrieve the the ball, you have gotten an extra set because of your mistake

[@NinhLyUK]

Possibly, yes.

[@spartanworrior4519]

Warren552011 but you could also lose the ball on the next tackle. It’s a different sport now anyway. Also when it was unlimited tackles, you benefiting for knocking it on and then winning the scrum but with 6 tackle sets you would.

[@spartanworrior4519]

Warren552011 if the number of tackles is indefinite, you don’t gain tackles from winning the scrum. In 6 tackle sets you do. And yeah you aren’t at a disadvantage of winning back possession if you knock it on. But you would still be given a very real chance to gain an extra set because of your mistake.

[@spartanworrior4519]

Warren552011 also if your opponent commits a foul you shouldn’t have to work to get the ball back, you should automatically get the ball back. I know stuff like a knock on is only a small offence which is why your not rewarded with a penalty. Also, a contested scrum is more likely to result in a penalty resulting in a big gain simply because one team committed a small infraction on the rukes

[@nightclyve2857]

Well as someone who plays rugby I think no scrum should be removed. (Not just because its been essential part of the game since forever.) It grands a tactical adventage to the team it was awarded to by binding 5 players at a certain spot and opens a lot of Space, wich in the League is sometimes even more valuble then possesion of the ball. In fact I pled for making the League scrum similar to the Union scrum (straight roll in, fight for the ball etc.).

[@spartanworrior4519]

Nightclyve issue with that is if you knock the ball on and then win the scrum you get an extra set because of your mistake

[@NinhLyUK]

In theory this is the case. In reality, forwards know this and immediately run back to defend the line. Any half decent team without the ball would have plugged the gap, and any half decent team with the ball would play it towards the direction of their wings. I have no problem with enforcing the straight roll in at the scrum though and make these players actually contest the ball. In the days of old, this is exactly what they did.

[@usarugbyleagueunionfan]

I love both codes profusely. Watch enormous amounts of both. More of a League man. According to Tony Collins the Rugby historian there's a 90%ish chance of team feeding the ball of getting it in Union. My issue sometimes with Union scrum is it takes too much time. I'm used to League scrum now. Speed up the play. People want to see running and tackling. Love both codes. Had to edit my list. I love you too Ninh. You're a gem to the sporting world.

[@NinhLyUK]

Thanks bro, I appreciate your kind words! Yes, Tony Collins is probably the world's foremost expert on the history of sports and of rugby. If he says something, it's most likely correct.

[@usarugbyleagueunionfan]

Ninh Ly Check out what we're doing out here. I'd love to interview you one day. kzbin.info/www/bejne/h6K4fpathb2tY9k

[@ramesh8504]

Great video Ninh! I do have one suggestion. Please make a video analysing Rugby World Cup final. This match reminded the world how important scrums are!

[@_jeromethegreat5119]

I'm so glad i found this channel

[@NinhLyUK]

Cool, thanks!

[@FidoArtz]

The scrums are definitely kind of similar to the line battles you'd see between the offense and defense of American football without a ball snap also more so like fighting for a Face-Off in hockey. But of course I'm sure that scrum strategy is not going to appeal to everyone as a ruck and maul Rumble fight for the fumble in Union rugby would be good enough to keep the game going unless the ball goes out of bounds then the throw-in comes into play. But overall the scrums for both formats is debatable.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, that's a fair assessment. It's debatable for both codes, but there's no doubt that it serves more of a purpose in one than it does in another.

[@brendanstafford6030]

Hi Nigh Ly. Thoroughly enjoyed your little video on the dreaded scrum in both codes of rugby. I'm a leaguer, so I'm all for getting rid of the nonsense. Totally agree with you; restart with a tap start if infield, or if within the shortides ( touch to 5 metres mark) with a restart as if the ball has gone out of play. I'm sure most fans of League would be in agreement to quicken the game up. 😎 BLS Derbyshire (Derby City RLFC)

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, totally agree with the points.

[@nightw4tchman]

1:36 Woooo! Go Ninh! Good response. I've been to a few league games where I've seen a scrum contested and it's always a good shock, especially when the other team doesn't expect it. That element alone would make me want to keep it, but I can't say I'd miss it massively if they took it away. Honestly I'm not sure what I'd prefer.

[@NinhLyUK]

Had to be said! But yeah, I don't think any League fan would miss if the scrum went away, that's for sure.

[@lunar7926]

small change recently means ball can now be placed at the props feet in a union scrum instead of in the middle

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, and it's made it more noncompetitive as a result. I briefly mentioned this in the video.

[@TylerGutwein]

As a tighthead prop, it is one of the best things to do in Union where you can dominate

[@NinhLyUK]

Cool.

[@TylerGutwein]

@@NinhLyUK If there was one thing to fix it isn't so much the feed because the ball has to go through the mark. The thing to fix has to be preventing teams from not angling in which force the opposition to separate

[@NinhLyUK]

There's that. But the whole 'not rolling the ball down the middle' thing really does change the scrum dynamics. This wasn't a problem when Rugby League DID roll the ball down the middle.

[@TylerGutwein]

@@NinhLyUK Of course it does at teams tend to try to hold position rather than steal the put in. I do understand there needs to be an advantage to the attacking team so seeing it straight but slightly closer to the put in team is a good option which especially in the high school ranks mainly happens. I don't think I've had many issues though with the ball not straight in. And when you do it's fairly obvious. Packing down and pushing as we do is fine and it's the defending team who needs to ensure they don't concede the penalty too so you can't just remove the whole set piece. You do see steals from time to time, it's mainly a ref by ref thing rather than a general thing I feel. Some refs are more willing to let it go until a captain says something. If nobody is complaining about it in the second row or back row, the front row for the most part doesn't have an issue either

[@stevenmcalister826]

And waste tons of time cumulatively over the game.

[@switchgear2501]

I swear ninh you have such a weird sense of humour but some way it always makes me laugh 😆 Continue the good work and can’t wait for the next video

[@NinhLyUK]

Thanks bro, much appreciated!

[@JKellenProductions]

Your one of few KZbinrs were I drop everything to watch you. I was about to take a shower and got the notification and now the weather has been running for five minutes

[@NinhLyUK]

That's cool. Thanks bro!

[@neill392]

The difference between the 2 sports, is that league has removed any contest for the ball. The attacking team has it and gets 6 goes to do something, during which the defending team can't take it off them. In union there's a permanent contest for the ball, except when the ref says there is't. So in league the scrum is just a restart, which you could replace with a tap (I think they did so during covid). You could argue it compresses 12 players into a small area of the field and allows attacking opportunities, but it is very rarely used that way. In union, the scrum is an attacking opportunity for both sides, which is why it is keenly contested.

[@soccch]

I don't think the scrum should be abolished from RL - I think it should still be used for infringements and balls going into touch, for a couple of reasons. 1. There's still an element of strategy involved with tricky plays. For example, in the 2015 Grand Final, Justin O'Neill, usually a centre, took the ball from the hindmost position, and ran to the blindside in order to catch the defense off guard and score the first try for North Queensland - a wonderful moment in perhaps one of the greatest games of the 2010s. 2. The scrum clock, and rest. The NRL currently has a clock that counts down for teams to pack the scrum, which if not formed in time, results in a penalty. This sort of clock restricts the chance for players to rest, which would be less likely to happen for a tap restart or otherwise. Plus, the formation of the scrum can allow for time off, so tactics for a defending team to quickly form a scrum to stop the game clock is still an enjoyable aspect, and would be very hard to replicate. If rules were amended to make the scrum more enjoyable, I would say readding the "straight feed" rule (this aspect was removed in the early 1990s because no one followed it) or perhaps changing it to be more chaotic (a kick scrum, perhaps, where the halfback must kick it into the scrum and have it possibly pinball around) would be the best way to amend it, and if replaced with anything, it should just be a play the ball, since that's what they do in junior league games where scrums aren't part of the game.

[@NinhLyUK]

Hi Lem. Thanks for commenting. 1) Yes there is strategy still involved. The few times that people actually win against the head and feed is exciting stuff. 2) Even a tap without the clock is quicker than a scrum with a clock. That said, of course there's an element of strategy in tying up their forwards - but most of the time, this never comes to fruition, as teams are quick to play it towards the wings, not necessarily back in the same direction. 3) I agree. A straight feed would make the teams have to contest the ball which would solve a lot of the problems. That said, League are adamant that they don't want their game becoming like Union's kick-and-clap mentality. With never ending scrum resets and only kicking penalties from scrums to win games. As for a simple play the ball, can't argue with that (hence the tap restart suggestion). Not sure having grubber scrums would work though?

[@soccch]

@@NinhLyUK On point 2, I personally am seeing changes in strategies where a fullback will lock the scrum, a lock forward will move into another forward position and the forward pushed out of the scrum will take the next hit-up to try and get through the backs and set their team up with better field position on tackle 1. I do agree that the tap restart may speed up the game, but I feel like the scrum can help slow down the game for a team that's ahead to give a rest period for their players - just not unnecessarily like it feels it can with union, with some scrums taking 2-3 minutes off the game clock. I can see why the scrum can be done away with, and they're excellent points in the video, but I don't think the scrum is a broken part of the game that should be written out. I'm a traditionalist who doesn't like a lot of the rule changes (e.g. a player can touch the corner post, seven tackle sets on 20m restarts) but the scrum clock was a welcome change that keeps one of the early values of rugby in general alive.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yeah, of course. You're entitled to your opinion - and scrums back in the day were contested and contested pretty well. Simple rule changes could be implemented to ensure this (i.e. enforcing that they roll it down the middle) ... but sadly nothing is being done about it. My take is to just get rid of it entirely. And thanks.

[@ajthenascarexpert]

Congrats on 100k

[@NinhLyUK]

Thank you! so much. KZbin hasn't registered it yet so I can't claim my badge and award but I will do as soon as I can!

[@polaarzzz130]

To be fair, there is a part of me which says that scrums should not be contested for but it does have an element of a fair way for both teams to regain possession thus the outcome is undecided before the scrum even commence....I'm not sure what my opinion is on it. Imagine a team is dominating another team and suddenly they knock the ball on, this may be the only chance the defensive team has to regain possession, reset and start on the offense and start attacking, but If the scrum is contested for and the opposing team dominates the scrum then they hold on to possession, as it were, and it continues being a dominated game on their behalf.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yeah I see where you're coming from. There has to be at least some competitive element where both sides can win possession of the ball.

[@MaxKnight123]

Would be interested to hear your thoughts on the new MLR rules around scrums

[@wr10fan1]

Yes, keep the rugby union scrum. It is a fantastic competition when actually done right but please stop the clock whilst the scrum is being set up or breaking down at the same spot. It takes too much time off the clock which could be valuable game time and turns off new viewers of the game.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yeah, I agree with keeping the scrum in Union, but the clock constantly running is a part of the game just like it is in football.

[@wr10fan1]

@@NinhLyUK Yeah but rugby referees unlike football do stop the clock whenever they feel the need to do so I think it is possible to stop it for scrums, especially when they are taking too long.

[@NinhLyUK]

This is mainly in stoppages in play. But scrums don't really count as a stoppage. That's why they don't stop the clock.

[@raghavgoel1265]

The subtitles...I had to rewatch that section in the beginning because I just couldn't stop chuckling lol

[@NinhLyUK]

Ummm, okay?

[@ryanvanasse]

Is it that section at 1:12 where there are some words in the subtitles that aren’t in the narration?

[@MXForce16]

I miss this year super rugby😔😔

[@NinhLyUK]

Shame, eh?

[@TheWhyteC]

Super rugby, six nations, MLR I can go on

[@dgalbraith4233]

I know!!!! I miss all sports at the moment 😭

[@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042]

I think in league they should keep the scrum, but make it optional in every instance, so you can choose to do it if you as a team really want to, but otherwise it just gets replaced with quick taps. Potentially then make it so you have to roll the ball straight from a scrum (and you can push and contest for it again) then at least if you are going to do a scrum there is a point to it. Maybe even make it so you can score a try as the player in the back of a scrum so that teams might occasionally use it as a strategy to score trys.

[@thornndog]

I played Rugby Union is college in the USA with only an american football back ground. As a prop, scrums were the best part of the game, I had no idea Rugby League had half ass scrums lol

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, half-arsed doesn't even being to describe the pointlessness of League scrums.

[@thornndog]

@@NinhLyUK Love the videos! For the record I love playing Rugby Union way more than American Football. I wish the sport would catch on in the USA for a spring sport!

[@NinhLyUK]

I don't see any reason why they shouldn't? American Football players should adapt really well to either code!

[@thornndog]

@Warren552011 Wow! Good info. I need to learn more about rugby history. That sounds familiar to rule changes to speed up the game of american football we have seen in the past few years.

[@aboriginalbrotha9947]

@Warren552011 actually League stopped contested scrums in 1983. That is the fight for the head and feed until the pushing completely stopped in the early 90's. Starting that year, the scrum half had to feed the ball in to his team. People found contested scrums time consuming and unattractive.

[@MalignMusings]

As a playing forward, scrums are really important in union, but mostly to tire out the opposition forwards. If the opposition team aren't used to scrummaging then the huge amount of anaerobic effort in a scrum can win you the game as theirs are knackered meaning your forwards can contribute more (net) to the game. The long setup times are actually useful to give both sides a bit of a breather and allows the backs to refill their gas tanks, as it were. I like union as it is a much more inclusive sport, a 130kg chap such as myself (who also does strongman) is incredibly effective for a minute or two, but then requires a good 2-3 mins to refill the tank. League, like soccer to an extent, is a normative sport in that physiques, fitness and weights tend towards a 'standard' - in union, all shapes and sizes are useful, and theres a job for everyone regardless of physique.

[@dgalbraith4233]

There is the whole idea of set plays to consider that you never brought up. Having all the forwards together allows the backs the ability to set one on one attacks, this is very important in rugby union. Blind side attacks ect.

[@NinhLyUK]

The same happens in League.

[@Hans._A._Pils]

There are more reasons to keep union scrums in my opinion. To keep a scrum strong and stabel you need a strong front row. By that I mean heavy players. The is no lock below 100kg. And I think the beauty of union is, that it is a sport for everyone. You might see irelands 211cm devon toner or tongas 150kg ben tamifua playing against any scrumhalf standing at 165cm and 75kg. If you cut out scrums, props would use their usage in union and there would be no reason to put a 120kg man on the field if you could just put any fast runner. Union is a sport of specialists. A prop could never run as fast as a wing and a wing could never handel the preasure of a scrum. This diversity of different types of players is what makes me enjoy the game so much. Hope you got my point, greetings from Germany

[@NinhLyUK]

Yeah, I totally agree. It makes more sense in Union, as players (as you correctly pointed out) specialise in their positions.

[@GamingIsle]

While I completely agree the scrum should be removed in League, it forces the forwards into one area - opening (albeit briefly, as you mentioned) up space for the backs to attack. Overall though I think it does damage to the credibility of league for any union fans watching league for the first time, it'd be like league having lineouts where only the team with possession are allowed to catch it.

[@NinhLyUK]

In theory that's the case. But that small advantage is pretty much neutralised at the top level.

[@mondaymotivator_]

Apparently, the reason why league scrums and that kind of stuff is less emphasized was because players were payed for playing rugby back in the day, which led to the creation of 2 distinct branches of rugby. By fleshing out things like the scrum, it would waste time, and potentially draw away viewers, decreasing revenue and therefore potential pay for the players, who could not afford to take time off like their union counterparts. I think scrums should be kept for union, as it is a part of the game, whereas things like that were already less emphasized in league, due to its history as a sport.

[@GrootsieTheDog]

. The scrum could be one of the coolest moves in all sports if it was more of a toss up - for example, ball is placed on the ground, scrum is formed over it and the whistle blows to start the mayhem. Now that would be how we would do it in the badass USA. New to rugby and I got to be honest - the scrum seems like a whole lot of silliness for a pretty predictable outcome. I’ve yet to see a scrum go to the team that doesn’t have possession

[@3ggshe11s]

Yeah, I totally agree. I love rugby union, but the crooked feeds by the scrum-halfs make the scrum a joke. I think union should consider placing the ball in the center of the scrum and letting the two sides actually fight for the ball.

[@NoName-hg6cc]

@@3ggshe11s It is like that. It was at least

[@mysteryhombre81]

In union they should defintely keep scrums, but what has always irked me is they are barely competetive in terms of team that puts in, always gets the ball possesion. It should be more akin to a hockey face off, and either a neutral referee puts in. Or the ball is placed on set point to which the scrum forms around. Let's actually make scums a competitive part of the game again, they are just routine now.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, I agree with your points.

[@mysteryhombre81]

@@NinhLyUK Yeah cheers Ninh, not knowing which team after a knock on, adds a new exiting dimension, to the game opens up the scrum to new tactical plays, emphasises the need for unique body sizes. If the scrum is not competitive, then there's more of shift to focus on fast running medium players like in RL, and union looses it's uniqueness. Also, have a similar issue with the rule changes in American Football, where with the new 25 yard line tulle for kickoff / punt touchbacks. Kickoff and punting have become, essentially a rather non skilled routine play now. Any thoughts on this?

[@stevenmcalister826]

Thing is, the team that knocked on has infringed, so although they should be able to contest the ball, the team that didn’t infringe should have an advantage. Similar to why the team throwing in at the line out has an advantage because they can tome the throw and the lift but still have to throw straight.

[@mysteryhombre81]

@@stevenmcalister826 Yeah but 94% of aquiring the ball if knocked on? I mean might as well just give it too them! I'm sure there is some way they could make the scums competitive and also give the infringed team a slight advantage - otherwise what rly is difference between union and league? I would also personally make the advantage outside the scrum, so it's only useful if they win the ball, and as the team in possession always knock on, it's not really in their interest create a scrum anyway, so it's not like teams would start knocking on intentionally.

[@stevenmcalister826]

@@mysteryhombre81 Oh no I agree though, the scrum in reality provides basically no contest. And it’s useless at restarting play quickly too. The biggest problem is the scrum half not feeding the ball straight, which is killing the contest. But the scrum definitely needs sped up as well, because the speed it’s at right now is unacceptable.

[@coot33]

If only scrum were more like faceoff in hockey. Faster to set up not penalty prone and either team can win possession.

[@tomcollins5112]

It used to be that way

[@NinhLyUK]

In an ideal world ... yes.

[@galinor7]

I disagree,. The scrum in RL is a fast, fair way to restart the game following a knock on. It allows the attacking side to attack the defensive line in the first phase of a play with the forwards still in the scrum and therefore allows for more yardage to be gained and the defensive line to be ruptured with greater ease. It is a good attacking position. In RU it is a battle over the ball. They serve different roles in those sports and I like both with their differences.

[@NinhLyUK]

In theory you're correct, but the advantage you specify isn't really there, especially at the top level. Most teams would have closed you down by that point. There is no real advantage to the attacking team.

[@moocowp4970]

If you were given the option between a quick tap and a scrum in Rugby League you should always take the scrum though because it will give your backs more room to run and youll make more metres than a quick tap where the opposing team has all their players ready to defend. What perplexes me in rugby league though is why the attacking team never pushes... Like sure, the defending team WANTS to not push and get out and defend quickly, but why doesnt the attacking team force them to stay in by keeping the ball in the scrum and pushing? At best you force a penalty and can progress further up field for free, at worst you keep the other team bound and unable to help on defence as quickly... For Rugby Union the only thing i dont understand is why they dont change the laws to allow the props to put their hand on the ground after the ball is in. Would reduce the likelihood of injury, would make the scrums less likely to collapse (i think) and therefore lead to less resets. While im sure it could make it slightly harder to push them off their mark i dont think its going to be noticeably different at the top level when there is 800-900kg on each side pushing...

[@ecstasycalculus]

At what point during a rugby union scrum are you allowed to touch the ball? Because in several of those clips, I see opportunities where a player could conceivably either pick up the ball and run with it or kick it back to a teammate and they don't.

[@jefftaylor7780]

As an ex player and fan of rugby league I have to agree about abolishing scrums and replace them with a tap..make the game quicker.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yeah, agreed.

[@yetimelly523]

I like the Idea of a penalty scrum kick in Rugby League. Total of 8 players (4 wingers and 4 centers) line up 4 against 4 opposite of each other on one side of the field 10 meters apart and the rest of both teams players do the scrum on the broken lines on the other side of the field long ways almost parallel. Then the scrum hikes it back to player who kicks it to other side of field to 1 of the 4 players to catch and run in for more yardage or a possible TRY. Elements of gridiron. More exciting to see a player catch the kick and score a try.

[@daca8395]

I almost agree with you, but we might keed it in both, but make it optional in league?

[@NinhLyUK]

Not sure how you'd make it 'optional' in League ...?

[@daca8395]

@@NinhLyUK yeah... Bad idea! Just get rid of it

[@NinhLyUK]

My thoughts exactly.

[@gudmundursteinar]

The tactical value of the scrum is to force all the forwards (big slow heavy guys) into one spot, opening up the rest of the field. That said, as a Union man, most scrums are pointless, dangerous and wastes of time. If I had to change the rules, in, perhaps a hope to unify the codes, it would be to use normal union scrums inside the 22 (close to the try line) and use league scrums with 8 players in the rest of the pitch. This allows for the attacking scrum which is arguaby the most potentially exciting bit of a union game.

[@tab5726]

Rugby scrum Reminds me when I was researching the first American football game on Wikipedia In the scrum Was kinda similar of how they played

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, exactly.

[@TheMrPeteChannel]

Before the forward pass and downs basically half of the game time was played as a massive scrum.

[@salt1956]

In rugby league, the scrum is the only set play. You see, while 12 players are packed down in the set scrum and another 2 players are involved with the feed, that leaves only 6 players on each side who are able to contest the game as soon as the ball is out. Rugby union has set plays like the line out, the ruck, the maul and the scrum. Rugby league has evolved into a form of rugby without set plays except for the modified scrum.

[@brownsupahero]

The scrum is a restart, but tactically, the forwards and engaged in the scrum, opening the field for the backs.

[@NinhLyUK]

In theory, that's the case. In reality (especially in League), decent forwards would have defended the line way before the backs gain possession of the ball. And decent backs will know to break towards the wings where they're most likely to score.

[@erictheviking672]

I don't watch too much league but it seems to tie in the players and give more space for a short time, which seems like a good thing (I'm clearly not an expert though!). Union, on the other hand, needs the scrum; it's part of what gives "all shapes" a chance to play, gives a separate contest for competitive players who aren't built to run round players and, like you say, gives the contest that can swing games. It is so frustrating that World Rugby refuse to direct refs to police it properly, the main sin being feeding. So many easy ways to do this but they refuse and leave the debate open. Presumably this is so the game becomes more like league but missing the point that league is already fine and if that's what people want they will watch that, not a messed-up version of union. Still, when did World Rugby or the refereeing organisation ever listen to us insignificant nobodies who pay to watch the game?

[@NinhLyUK]

Exactly. The governing bodies of both sports I feel that are run by people who are against evolution and improvement. I would say that they're 'old men who refuse to change' - but politically not correct. Same theory applies though.

[@erictheviking672]

Agreed. Cheers.

[@phillipburnell8033]

Saying getting rid of scrums is like swearing to any front row forward

[@NinhLyUK]

You didn't actually watch the video, did you?

[@phillipburnell8033]

@@NinhLyUK yeah I did I play both codes of rugby like alot of people and especially in grassroots and semi pro rugby league it makes a difference

[@Theslavedrivers]

Whilst I follow the gist of your argument, I do think that - in practice - the Rugby Union scrum has become THE most frustrating part of the game - especially for the casual viewer. Using it to 'force a penalty' was never part of the game in the 70s and 80s. So it cannot be a mere coincidence that the move away from the 'amateur' ethos has brought us this new - but ultimately cynical - form of strategy. In a nutshell, players cause the thing to disintegrate, then blame the other side for it. The difference between 'He collapsed' (penalty one way) and 'No, he pulled me down' (penalty the other way) is often impossible for any referee to tell apart. I don't know what the answer to all this is, Ninh, but I DO know that it's one surefire way of boring-the-pants off any newcomer to the game - and is, for all intents and purposes, Union's equivalent to the 'dive' in soccer.

[@NinhLyUK]

Yes, precisely! I couldn't have said that any better myself. It's a pretty cynical way of getting penalties and points, but when one team gets the advantage from doing so, the others will follow. Totally agree.

[@Mateus_Carvalho]

Here's to hoping you reach 100k soon, eh?

[@NinhLyUK]

I hope so dude!

[@delamalasie]

Keep the scrum in union with the feeder being the referee

[@Ramblinman26]

When American Football was first being created, it was based on Rugby League. But they hated the scrum, and thus the scrimmage was created.

[@blueshells50]

Ninh you may not know this, but i have watched old League Scrums, and old union scrums. League scrums even back then looked wildly different than union. They essentially would bind and then the hookers would contort as much as possible to hook it back. Old union scrums are pretty consistent where the forwards stay low flat and try to actually push. is there a reason league scrums, even when contested were so different?

[@koraykay4423]

We used to force knock ons to give the fowards a breather

[@PukeSkywanker]

I agree that scrums in Rugby League are useless now. It used to be way different in league, closer to Rugby union. Back 30yrs years ago & more, the scrum in League was amazing, if you're able to check out some NSWRL & Winfield Cup games from Australia in the 60s, 70s, & 80s. Definitely lots of pushing & the ball going in the middle, teams are even penalised for feeding the ball back towards their own team in those days. But unfortunately that all came to an end due to the governing body (NSWRL, now the ARL/NRL) overreacting with safety measures in the mid 90s effectively killing the contested scrum in League. The overreaction of the governing body goes back to the late 70s, but that's another discussion for another time. Great video by the way.

[@NinhLyUK]

Thanks bro. And yes, contested scrums in League were pretty cool back in the day.

[@brendanstafford6030]

NINH. Finally, got it! Too much single malt last night, that's my excuse anyway! 👌

[@NinhLyUK]

Okay - you finally got it.

[@nannyoggsally]

I don't see any good reason to remove the scrum in union. It's the defining thing about rugby union. Even in league it's a way to group many of the players in a small area to free up space outside. That doesn't happen with a tap restart.

[@NinhLyUK]

But in League, the players immediately run back to defend anyway, so it's kinda pointless being there.

[@spartanworrior4519]

Ninh Ly still a chance to use set plays and it’s possible to catch them off guard. Scrums still play into the strategy of league

[@blueshells50]

league should put every forward on the touchline in a straight line opposite of each other. (let them get in a sprinters stance if they want) and just have the half back toss it in. would be a fun restart

[@64imma]

Makes sense to me

[@NinhLyUK]

Totally.

[@jackterry1014]

Thanks for the 🎂 even though it isn’t my birthday

[@NinhLyUK]

Cool!

[@TheMrPeteChannel]

RL should make their scrum more RU like.

[@NinhLyUK]

In terms of making them contest for the ball by enforcing rolling down the middle ... absolutely. But it's till painfully long, and a tap-restart would be infinitely quicker.

[@spartanworrior4519]

Ninh Ly issue with having contested scrums in league is if you have a knock on and then win the scrum you get an extra set of tackles because of your mistake

[@NinhLyUK]

@Spartan Worrior - But an uncontested scrum looks like this. You might as well just hand the ball to them. That's my point in this video.

[@spartanworrior4519]

Ninh Ly but the scrum allows for set plays to be used on the next couple of tackles therefore adding another level of strategy to the game

[@rambo2093]

I'm late so let me think what to comment.... Great video dude you deserve more views

[@NinhLyUK]

Thanks dude.

[@nakedref8997]

Agree the scrum in league is a waste of time but you’ve missed the entire point of why they’re still there, to tie up the forwards and allow the backs to have a play with all that extra space. Could just as easily have them sitting cross legged in a circle holding hands to achieve the same effect.

[@NinhLyUK]

In theory you're correct, but if you actually look at pro Rugby League, it doesn't make that much of a difference because the defending team would have shut you down as soon as the ball comes out. Maybe it works in amateur or rec rugby league. But at the top level - it's all but useless.

[@simonmonto]

The Kiwis and Warriors in the NRL get pinged by the ref for contesting the scrums, they did it succesfully years ago but it aint in the game anymore

[@NinhLyUK]

I believe one of them was in the video? But yeah, it's barely in the game right now.

[@juliopolina]

I am just a casual rugby viewer but, fo the life of me, I could not see why they had the scrum seeing how they were just passing the ball to one of their teammates. Because of that I searched for an explanation and that is how I got here! Thanks. You solved my question!!! PS I LOVE NFL Football!! I do not say soccer, (even though that is the proper name, because of the mobs! :) Hey Rugby is FOOTBALL, also.

[@zytrik1]

Do a Ninh explains Super Rugby and how it allows for transatlantic and transpacific championships 🙏

[@NinhLyUK]

That's not a bad idea!

[@WSleeman]

As a union ref, I'm really surprised to see that there's no straight put in requirements for league! I assumed that the rules just said to make scrums uncontested!

[@NinhLyUK]

Learn something new everyday, eh? Technically you can still contest a scrum in League, it's just not really the done thing!"

[@grahamkight9111]

So close to 100,000 subscribers!

[@NinhLyUK]

I know, right? I'm cranking out content just to get me over the line.

[@dandenrode]

Why not put the ball on the ground and form the scrum around the placed ball? Then it always starts in the middle and both sides have a fair shot at possession

[@realeststeps5271]

I won a school rugby league final by trapping the ball from an opposition feed! We got a penalty from the opposition hooker putting his hands in the scrum and we came back to win. After the game the referee said I am the only hooker in the competition that actually strikes for the ball. Great video 👍

[@NinhLyUK]

Sweet! Winning against the head and feed is a pretty cool thing to do. Especially if it wins you the game. And thanks!

[@tomeknguyen9840]

I'm wondering what a football code with unlimited forward ball passes by hand, regardless of passer's position, would look like.

[@NinhLyUK]

It'd look like either Gaelic Football, or Basketball just on a very large field.

[@Emper0rH0rde]

Australian rules football

[@NoName-hg6cc]

Australian rule

[@Ese96Agoaye]

The pace of Union is why League fans sometimes call the former “yawnion”

[@NinhLyUK]

They do, but it's not as bad as they suggest.

[@Emper0rH0rde]

Union is my favorite, but it needs fewer unnecessary stoppages.

[@NoName-hg6cc]

And League unimaginative attack is why Rugby fan call it the "simple mind game"

[@blueshells50]

I do wish Union would adopt a league scrum on scrum penalties rather than allowing a kick to goal. essentially scrum penalties would be a free put through like league. Also League should only do scrums closer to the sideline to open up the defensive line. would make them more exciting.

[@mr.hakimi07]

As rugby union player, I never understand why rugby league scrum look like shit (my country only have rugby union and nobody play rugby league here). After you said "the word straight isn't there", now I understand why they dont fight for scrum because the opponent never have advantage to win the ball when the scrum half can roll the ball like that during scrum. Thanks Ninh for explanation.

[@NinhLyUK]

Thank you brother. Yes, this is the exact reason why League scrums 'look like shit'. You have almost no chance of winning the ball, so teams don't try.

[@swmtd9484]

Why do they need to roll? Why not putting a still ball in the middle and then form the scrum accordingly?

[@dgb921]

Then why even have a scrum at all? I wonder if it because it’s been around for so long people feel weird or just against it only for that reason. Thoughts?

[@NinhLyUK]

If you watched the video fully - you'd understand the reason why.

[@dgb921]

Ninh Ly I did watch the video. This comment was meant not just for you. We heard your opinion why. You seem to be very defensive all the time.

[@phillipsstanley]

the reason for both is to be punitive. they just execute it in a different manner. when an infringement has occurred by a team play must be slowed and the offending team must be punished in some manner. hence the scrum in both codes. yes, the punishment is more harsh in one code than another but they do both serve the same purpose and should never be done away. unless league considers one your suggestions of a line out or kick into touch or tap and go.

[@pietjanjou1398]

In Rugby union it would be a different sport without the scrum. It can often turn a game as it provides a strength contest between the forward packs on the reset. Sibce most scrums are done as a reset after handling errors, ot is good to have a restart that provide a contest. In RL there is much contest, but having the forward tied up creates some space which provides an advantage to the team who was awarded the scrum.

[@NinhLyUK]

I agree with the Rugby Union part of your comment. But in League - in theory this is correct. But in reality, teams would have defended the line way before the ball came out, and any smart team would play it out to the wings anyway. The game has evolved and teams have found ways to equalise the advantage.

[@trilli7914]

Great video

[@NinhLyUK]

Cheers

[@panakara1734]

Nicely done Ninh. However, I believe the fundamental difference in the scrums comes down to each aspects key differences: Union - a fair contest for possession in EACH and EVERY play, hence competitive scrums and specialised forwards. League - each team have their 6 touch possession until turning it over to the other team, why try tire and contest possession when you know you will eventually get your turn soon enough. Stop the time during scrums in Union to avoid forced errors and taking up time. Get rid of scrums in league, they clearly don't want it with those low levels of enthusiasm anyway. 'Throwing' in line outs would be a much more exciting aspect to league instead.

[@NinhLyUK]

In short, that's technically true - but if you re-introduced contested scrums in Rugby League, it's be a whole lot different. But other than that, I totally agree.

[@lowrezz]

The scrum ties up players allowing more running passages. The only other option would be a mandated lineout with a minimum amount of players.

[@NinhLyUK]

It does in theory, but especially in League, that advantage is relatively small.

[@jacknewhouse7100]

in league the scrum opens up play and heaps of set piece plays result in tries cause there’s less defenders on the first play so i reckon keep the league scrum

[@frankien1672]

Wowwww 4 videos in a week! More time to make video during lockdown?

[@NinhLyUK]

Yeah, that's probably it. In reality, I'm just trying to force my way across the 100k subscriber mark!