Glaring Lyman Incongruities That Should Not Be

[@claiborneeastjr4129]

I have the latest editions of Lyman cast bullet manuals, and the 50th Edition. Excellent manuals, and I like the fact that they load and test bullets from many manufacturers. This makes it very useful; I have Hornady and Speer manuals as well. I have an old Lyman manual from 1967 that has the plastic ring binders and a soft cover. Very interesting how components have evolved over the decades.

[@allthingsconsidered3211]

I never thought of them not sealing. Thx for the explanation and lesson. Im still “new” and always learning

[@TimKollat]

Im not a cast bullet maker, just a typical reloader, so the best thing I took away from this video is how to use the word incongruity, so thanks for that.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

mojo jojo - You are a reloader and a shooter - and your experience and knowledge is many fold. The reason this video was ho hum to you is that you have seen the incongruities and your experience, skill and knowledge allow you to navigate and handle those inconsistencies without missing a beat. Perhaps the point of the video was that neither we nor new reloaders should have to deal with such if efforts had been made to correct them. If Lyman really cared about their information for the sake of putting out their very best, this video would never have been made. Best to ya, FC

[@TimKollat]

actually the more of your videos I watch the more interested Im becoming in casting. I was at my local Sportsmans Warehouse yesterday and came so close to buying the Lyman Big Dipper set. I keep watching your and Elvis Ammo videos and Im pretty sure I have a new hobby in the works...and by the way, I don't find any of your videos ho hum, I enjoy them all. You're a good man!

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

mojo jojo - Your kind remarks are much appreciated. Congrats on your desire to start casting. You will want to gather some raw lead and melt it into clean casting ingots as you start. When I started getting good castings in my first ever bullet casting session, they were so nice, I was hooked for life. There is just something about their goodness that you made yourself that is really appealing... Have a great day, FC

[@jamesheath9385]

Earlier reloading manuals had no way to measure chamber pressure or over all pressures. These companies further had no knowledge what condition firearms were in at the time their information was used. Linotype is worn lead letters and symbols used in typesetting machines at newspaper/printing companies. Linotype is unavailable currently. Adjust lead mix to wheel weights with 2% tin/antimony added to each pot.

[@truebornsonofliberty554]

What a classy and elegant way to take Lyman to the woodshed.

[@joeprimal2044]

Really. His kids must get the best lectures when they screw up.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

M85FSLUVR - You guys are a riot...a real riot... :) ;) Best to ya, FC

[@vincentnastri7736]

I would also recommend the Lee manual it goes into greater detail and covers more loads and powders. However I use all three manuals as I have many loads to do and it’s nice to compare what powders they recommend or more importantly the ones I don’t have ! 😂🇬🇧🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

[@wetwriterrr]

Another valuable video from FC45.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

Crabby Old Warrior - Thanks for posting comment... much appreciated. Best to ya, FC Steve

[@johnblood3731]

Lyman pistol and revolver handbooks one two and three have mostly yhe same loads and match lyman 47. 48. 49. Speer is the same. They go four or five boks with few changes. They both put out a lot of books with little new info.

[@krossF]

Noticed that too, I frequently disregard most of their alloy choices and save my lino for cast 223 and custom spitzer 30 cal/8mm molds. I thought it was hilarious they wanted Linotype for 38 wadcutters, where swaged pure lead suffices.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

superswaglord1945 - Just as hilarious as using linotype for standard 3.5 Bullseye and 158 grain bullets. But also very expensive way to cast bullets. Have a great day, FC

[@thedobc]

I don't think they are recommending alloys, but listing the alloys used to get the bullet weight as listed since different alloys will weigh different in the same mould... And I have used Lyman manuals for over 30 years...

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

Scott Silva - Thanks for the comment. We all like Lyman manuals and every reloader should have the Lyman 50th Edition Reloading Manual, and the 49th, and the 46th, and the 42nd etc. But I don't think I see any disclaimers on the alloys being used to uncouple that alloy from the reloading data that immediate follows. And if indeed, that is what is happening here, then Lyman's purpose must be to confuse the daylights out of reloaders - That would not have been a formula for the high regard Lyman holds with us today... I'm just pushing to make the 51st Edition of the Lyman Reloading Manual all that better, that is if the editing at Lyman is paying attention.... Best to ya, FC

[@iceandhotwax]

I suspect that Lyman did this on purpose, the harder alloy creating a higher pressure spike than softer alloys. The chose the hardest common type of lead, and adjusted their data accordingly, to prevent someone from overloading, just due to harder alloys.

[@DenverLoveless]

FC, I have been reloading for only about 5 yrs, and I have found that discrepancies between manuals , not just between companies, but between different publications from the SAME companies is very frustrating. This raises a lot of questions and diminishes confidence in the printed data. It's like, uh, ok..., which one is correct..? It would be nice if they could get their act together. Thanks for trying to bring this to their attention.

[@edwardmauch2918]

I was just asking myself about the hardness Lyman recommends. I think it’s because they are trying to sell more lead.

[@Zorbawon]

Good catch. Even though this video dates back to 2017 I had not seen it until now, have you received a comment from Lyman about this inconsistency?

[@greybone777]

Lead bullet technology. I believe out of moyei springs Idaho was a great source for casting data. We use wheel weights and heat treat them in the oven. You can experiment with adding linotype in small amounts for extra hardness. Loads with linotype will shatter instead of expand. A trade off between leading and expansion. I see the concern and that totally makes sense. New people will see that reloading is a confusing process and that it's best not to rush into anything or make assumptions about veracity of claims made by manufacturers. For instance the info on the front of hodgdon powder cans is highly optimistic and doesn't tell the whole story. Ammo manufacturers are especially optimistic about claimed velocity especially Weatherby whos loads used to consistently chronograph 200 fps below advertised. Lyman has never been the greatest, even in its heyday years of the 60s and 70s. It is just one of the few sources we had.read a lot of manuals, the whole thing, not just the load charts 😑

[@Toolness1]

I powder coat all my cast bullets and use nothing but wheel weights. Works great. I started powder coating the first day I started casting so I've never worried about alloys or traditional lube

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

Toolness1 - You mean you avoided all those hours / days of running bullets through sizer lubricators until your fingers were numb...!!?? Of all the nerve, you never paid your dues..!! :) ;) :) Best to ya, FC

[@Billbobaker]

I was sure hoping they would have more info about reloading 9mm.. with more powders and bullet weights. Pretty disappointing...

[@rustyblair7515]

Wonder when the cast reloading sections in Lyman and others will include Powder Coat?

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

Rusty Blair - At some point, they will have to as PC is here to stay... Best to ya, FC Steve

[@stevenmike1878]

from what i have heard from wat others think, they might have picked linotype, just to have data because it has higher pressure spikes. so in case the unexperienced caster loads up the wrong lead thinking lead is lead the gun wouldn't blow up. or if thats all a person had and they decided to cast they would still load a safe round. and to save curious casters from diving into dangerous territory and hurting themselves. there not optimal rounds but there safe tested, and they left the hand casting book for the optimized casting round for the more enthusiastically experienced hand loaders and casters. so the lyman 50th ed is there for the worst case scenario lead casting , the guy who thinks lead is lead.

[@Thorsaxe777]

I noticed the same thing years ago. It's something that I scratched my head over . You and I know for Linotype is expensive compared to other resources and I believe it should be reserved only as high velocity applications in cases of rifle pressures. we can use alloy material for handgun use. also, in cases where low pressure is involved, a Handgun target bullet needs a softer alloy in order to work correctly for obdurate with in the barrel. Dave.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

Thorsaxe777 - I didn't even get a chance to bring out the expense factor with Linotype...Thanks for pointing that out... Good day to ya, Dave... FC Steve

[@allthingsconsidered3211]

I tend to load hardball. 50/50 lino lead powder coated or gas checked. Up to 1800 or so i get great accuracy. 2 moa. 300 blk and 458. I havent loaded for 357 mag or sig. And pure lead for slugs. What kind of alloys do you recommend?

[@me_92other42]

Thanks for the video. Lyman has been my go to for many years. I have for many years been using light loads of Unique for plinker loads in my 45-70's along with paper patching. I size down the 458 and patch them back up. Very good accuracy without breaking my shoulder. You don't hear much anymore about light loads with Uniuqe any more

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

me_82 other - And Unique is a great powder for reduced loads in the 45/70 Some of the loads recommend using fiberfill because of the big air space as I recall... Best to ya, FC

[@tonyc1547]

It has been like that for years. The 49th edition is the same. Check your older manuals to see when it changed.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

Tony C - I just never checked the alloys recommended because I always used my own. Best to ya, FC

[@e.kent.d9561]

Yes, Lyman 49 states Linotype for all of the 38s also.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

E.Kent.D - Just think of all the money wadcutter shooters would have to spend if we casted every 38 with Linotype... horrors... Best to ya, FC

[@toycollector2611]

Likely there will be an update posted online. I have seen similar Hornady mistakes.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

toy collector - Thanks for bringing this out...what protects us is our practices of using starting loads under the max loads and working up watching for safety. There are variables that we may not have accounted for, and we will be OK... However, we don't expect variables like errors in published data... Best to ya, FC

[@dowdawg]

And its not just limited to that either. Same goes for loading data also, that of which I'm sure has already been covered due to your excellent attention to detail...

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

dowdawg - Yes, but not enough to be a danger as long as we do the good reloading practice of starting low and working up... Have a great day to the dowdawg..!! FC

[@davel9162]

Inconsistencies like that are frustrating. Like the other video you had showing how acceptable charges in old manuals have been seriously downgraded in newer ones. I found something like that in the Lee manual as well. I have a few years older vol 2 and my dad just bought a brand new vol 2. Cover is the same but his is printed differently, and the 9mm data for 124/125 for TiteGroup powder is way different! He loads 4.2gr which is way over max according to his new book while it is closer to start in my version. Why would they change the data from one printing to another while not stating an edition change??!!!

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

Dave L - very frustrating indeed...as are all of these similar type examples...Have a great day, FC

[@161Sheriff]

incroguities, I'm going to use that word someday when I need to sound smart. ; )

[@jessjessup2361]

161Sheriff Very Amusing!

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

161Sheriff - And you guys are also real riots as well... ;) ;) :) Best to ya, FC

[@bwax1542]

I think I learn something from just about every video that I watch produced by you. I'm curious if you have contacted Thomas Griffin/Lyman regarding your findings and what their response would be. I own both of those books and will pay better attention to the details found in each. Thanks for the free education.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

B WAX - You will find other incongruities, but none more glaring... you would think that a little alarm would have sounded in the consciousness of someone at Lyman somehow... Best to ya, FC

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

B WAX - Might just drop over to Lyman web site and post a contact... wouldn't expect an answer, but why not? The service I get will means something if nothing else... Best to ya, FC

[@spyderxtra777]

I can't come up with a logical reason for them to do that other than an editing mistake? OR! Maybe they assume we are using the (typically) extra hard commercial cast bullets when we are using the reloading manual, but assume we are using bullets we cast ourselves when using the cast bullet handbook?

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

spyderxtra777 - You would think that some proofreading would have been done... There really aren't any valid explanations or excuses... Best to ya, FC

[@tjmooremusic]

I have the 50th anniversary edition from Lyman. It is the first manual I have bought. I am still new at reloading and have a question. I want to use projectiles that are not in the manual. It o my offers hollow point or cast bullets in its data. I want to use jacketed target ammo for my revolver and levergun. For my levergun I prefer jacketed soft point bullets. Can I substitute day a 158 grain flat top fully plated bullet for the expensive Hornady or Spear hollow point as long as the weight is the same and the OAL is within the correct tolerances? I have sent requests to bullet and powder companies for alternative data for specific bullets. Don't want to move forward with the manual I have until I get my question answered. I have gotten mixed responses to the question.. An you help me out with this? Love your channel. Thank you.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

tjmooremusic - Best advice on safe load data for plated bullets is to use cast bullet load data for equal weight bullets with comparable bearing surface. Then, if the pressures are OK, and more performance is desired, go with load data for jacketed bullets substituting the equal weight plated for the jacketed bullets. I know that some recommend going straight to the jacketed bullet data, but I remember the plated bullet manufacturers recommending using cast bullet data back in the early days. Good reloadin' to ya, FC Steve

[@cyberpunk004]

its also a severe waste of money to use linotype for 38 special. considering you get roughly 1.5 lbs of antimony in a 5 lb bar of super hard alloy(30% antimony) its roughly 12.5 lbs of lead vs 30 lbs or so of lyman #2 alloy. i have the lee mold and for 38 special i think all they use is 10:1 and i wouldn't shoot them at 357 magnum velocities but fine for 38.

[@chevy6299]

I have to wonder if Lyman Staff is watching FC45LC video???

[@GunFunZS]

Lee does. Lyman better if they want to compete!

[@2541968joey]

I rely on the Lyman 50th manual & find real differences in their loads for TiteGroup Hodgdon power versus what Hodgdon states sometimes a real eye opener for sure.

[@jamesvi2625]

I've been having pretty poor experiences with Lyman these years of late. Molds cut undersized, brand new sizer(s!) having the pressure screw pull through the base metal after only a few hundred cycles. then there was the outrageous hassle of trying to get these things fixed /replaced. I'm through byin lieman.. now cut me a switch!!!

[@totallyjonesin]

Could be they simply changed their opinion on it. A lot of new load specs for a given company have been cut back from older recipes.

[@henryhorne3160]

Good catch Fortune Cookie.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

Henry Horne - Thanks, Henry...and a good day to you, sir....FC

[@alanb76]

Thanks for the heads-up (I need to get new manuals, mine are all much older :), but it raises a question. Is that notation a "recommendation" or is it documentation of the lead type they used during their testing and development of that data? It should be both, but if not both, which is it? Changing alloys changes pressures. Perhaps in the past they were using linotype on everything to simplify and standardize their testing, and if that was the case would one want to just change the type without redoing all the testing? At least softer mixes are likely to reduce pressures, so the data might be wrong in a safe direction. Perhaps they should state their test methodology and recommendations separately. Before piezo systems the effort required to do these tests was very high, setting up each measurement for CUP is a time and material consuming job. Even with modern equipment it takes time and effort (though less), and they cannot update all the load data in a new manual so some of it must be recopied from earlier manuals. If the load data being presented now in the manuals is the same, but the stated alloy has changed that indicates a problem of a different type - this means the data was copied but the alloy changed without doing new measurements, which would seem to be a potentially serious issue, or at least a failure to properly document the data being presented. I would expect newer measurements to be in PSI from piezo equipment which is far less effort to use once calibrated. I suppose it is possible they may do some conversion to CUP even if they are not using copper crushers though. It just reconfirms what we already know - consult more than one manual, and learn what you are doing if you are going to reload! These days companies expect more from less, so these writers and editors probably have to work with very tight schedules and very limited budgets for re-measuring test data. That budget is likely used for new cartridges rather than re-testing old ones.

[@peteralexben]

back then you could explain the linotype advice in 38 special ,that the lino type letters being used wrong bij bookprint factory

[@michaelsandolo861]

Hi FC, I will be casting 45/70 for my Henry. I will be casting 500 grain with lead and Linotype. Which recipe should I follow?

[@nickjm37fordel1]

Hey FC, isn't Linotype getting harder to find ?

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

Nick J - You are absolutely right if you are thinking scrap yards. Years ago, when lino was used extensively in printing, it was readily available for 50 cents a pound (when I started casting, it was 35 cents). Now, we can readily get lino from RotoMetals, but we've got to pay over $3 a pound. I like the new Foundry Lead alloy from RM - it has even more antimony and tin (23% antimony, 12 1/2% tin). Best to ya, FC

[@GunFunZS]

Lyman deserves credit for posting data for Lee, RCBS and Saeco molds.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

GunFun ZS - Right you are, well thought out line of argument in the defense of Lyman - You probably have a few more to spring out as necessary. I do like the Lyman manuals, use 'em all the time...but they could have done better. like include more bullet weights also... Best to ya, FC

[@oldscout7]

How did you get the "N" in that LYMAN cast ingot to come out backwards?

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

oldschout7 - The ingot mold I bought was in a series made that was because the workers at the factory wanted to play a joke... Best Regards to ya, FC

[@psykoklown874]

Perhaps those will be considered collector's items some day in the reloading world.

[@FatManLeather]

That's interesting.

[@danielshore667]

That why if I got a questions I know how to contact you plus its easier than reading the book 🔫📚🎯

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

Always great hearing from ya, Dan - Hope you are well, you are getting opportunities to enjoy your tobacco and fishing... Best Regards, FC

[@gapster46]

Wow. The 50th Edition hasn’t been out all that long, and yours already looks 50 years old.

[@e.kent.d9561]

Ha, he ran over it with his car. I forget which video where he told about that.

[@gapster46]

+E.Kent.D - Must have missed that video.

[@FortuneCookie45LC]

gapster46 - Yes, E.Kent.D has the lowdown - and it was out in the street for a while as well...just goes to show how tough that manual is...a little bit of packing tape, and the doggone thing is front line once again... Best Regards, FC