Glassware Tierlist

[@chuckvanderbildt]

This one is going to rustle a lot of jimmies.

[@That_Chemist]

My Jimmie’s remain unrustled

[@BambiTrout]

Oooh I love a good jimmy rustling

[@sageunix3381]

I'm Jimmy and I'm pretty ruffled 🙁✌💣👈

[@SeekingTheLoveThatGodMeans7648]

Isn't it going to make a difference what the laboratory typically does? One lab's seldom used item is another lab's everyday item.

[@aar3604]

my favourite piece of glassware is a window

[@pratiikkaushik8285]

Defenestration, amirite?

[@That_Chemist]

Lol

[@pmathewizard]

A window is next best way of escape just behind the door

[@yougottrolledbythebest8117]

@@pratiikkaushik8285 silicon

[@spantim]

long neck funnel is still overrated, although it simply becomes a shorter funnel over time

[@Kualinar]

Once flame treated a long neck funnel that spontaneously transformed into a short neck one... No more sharp edge.

[@prestonhanson501]

Long neck funnels are super important for distilation stet ups and don't want reagents poured down your condenser which happens in vitro often

[@indigateau241]

S+ Tier: Purposely broken glassware shards to prevent unseen stresses from ruining a project

[@CarbonatedGravy]

*and using them as boiling chips

[@TechsavvyScientist]

"you have an open system until you dont" this made me literally laugh out loud

[@That_Chemist]

Haha

[@u.v.s.5583]

Is this another way to say "it never explodes until it does"?

[@WizardTim]

SSR disposable PET cups/bottles are glassware if you believe hard enough they're compatible with your solution, plus there's the added benefit of sometimes getting 120% yield.

[@harrisonmundschutz2654]

A long neck funnel is just an imminently short neck funnel

[@lolatmyage]

short neck funnel with extra steps

[@Dangerousbros1]

I work for a pharmaceutical company and do a lot of their raw material testing. Basically everything I do relies on volumetric flasks can't believe glass pipettes and glass weighing boats received no mention either...

[@pmman4232]

glass weigh boats?!

[@Dangerousbros1]

@@pmman4232 Try weighing out mg quantities of stuff like API in a plastic boat and you're gonna have a bad time with stability because of static. Therefore, we use these, then rinse to disolve with solvent. uk.vwr.com/stibo/bigweb/std.lang.all/05/89/4950589.jpg

[@pmman4232]

@@Dangerousbros1 We usually use weigh paper that is zapped by the anti static ionizer

[@Dangerousbros1]

@@pmman4232 we have those for Dev work, but they are not useful for QC as obviously you cannot rinse with solvent so you will always retain some sample on a paper boat.

[@TheLetterH111]

glass weigh boats are amazing, ive used that exact model you linked still get annoying static but theyre the best option imo

[@Anderson_Hwang]

I always use pear-shaped RBF whenever I can. It holds more volume and is better suited for rotavap than normal RBF. Due to the pear shape, it is easier to collect the solid that is stuck near the top of the flask (normally a pre-bent spatula is required)

[@prestonhanson501]

Yeah good call. I use them for the same reason. Small advantages like that

[@stephenjacks8196]

You forgot Klein bottles. Useful for mythical lab results.

[@That_Chemist]

Those are legendary

[@askyle]

in b4 Figueroa paper on improved toothpaste-mediated reductions using conventional grade Klein bottles

[@stephenjacks8196]

@@askyle old Crest toothpaste (with SnF2) was the best for cleaning tarnished Copper to be soldered. Crest no longer has SnF2 but is still the most abrasive toothpaste. For polishing glassware, "Bon Ami" and "Bartenders Friend" have rounded silica particles so no microscratches. Noting because sometimes tar or metal removal requires abrasive.

[@thesledgehammerblog]

@@stephenjacks8196 I believe Colgate still has SnF2 in it.

[@RitterDagobert]

As an analytical chemist, I feel like I have to defend the honour of the Soxhlet, but to be honest anything higher than D-tier would be quite a stretch based on how long those damned extractions take. I do however have one at home to make flavoured liqueur from Korn, which is quite nice.

[@chrisb3585]

I will back you up on this as the soxhelt extraction is our main method of removing fats/lipids and oils from dried samples, while I have highlighted a major issue with this method in a comment on another video, the soxhelt itself wasn't the party at fault... kinda, maybe... Anyway, to better preserve our glassware, we place our samples in cellulose extraction thimbles topped with cotton wool and this usually will solve any clogging issues while making sample removal a lot easier and quicker.

[@Christopher.Marshall]

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[@richardblair3021]

A wide necked long length funnel is S tier for syntheses in sealed ampules (such as in the preparation of GaI3). It allows the precursors to be placed at the bottom of an unsealed glass ampoule in a glove box without getting material on the region that will be heated to form the seal. I had a glass blower make one and it is orders of magnitude better than trying to make a funnel with weigh paper and tapping precursors into the ampoule. Now that I think about it it’s still unbroken. The larger neck is a bit more robust.

[@enesince6329]

Claisen condensor is straight F tier because it reminds me of the times the distilliations didnt work 😢 And 3 neck flask is straight S tier, because its like a little uterus for your chemicals of a baby 🤣🤣 the mother of glassware

[@Felixkeeg]

Cursed comment

[@mcanderson0]

Stoppers also keep stuff OUT (bc my ‘lab’ is known to everyone else as my ‘garage’). And they MAY seize, but when my clumsy ass knocks over a bottle bc i reached around and thought it’d be fine… and then knocked it over… and nothing spilled bc the stopper is seized! D tier haha Good episode!

[@That_Chemist]

That is true - this has saved my ass more than once

[@SirJeff]

For me burette will depend on how old it is. For some reason my school unlike all the other schools I know uses old burettes that don't have a stopcock. Instead, there's a phallic rubber tubing you clamp shut with a metal clip and squeeze to let out the titrant. An absolute POS to handle, and if that wasn't bad enough, the rubber tubing can break. Once I was titrating with NaOH and thymolpthalein, and I must've been about 0.50cm^3 away from the end point before the tubing broke, and the NaOH leaked into the solution. I spent the next five seconds watching my solution go a nice deep blue colour while contemplating my life. TLDR: Burette with rubber tubing = F tier, nothing else

[@That_Chemist]

F

[@theleva7]

I disagree, but only because in my Uni we used condom-tipped burettes not with metal clamps on the rubber, but with a glass ball inside of it. It was SO MUCH EASIER to precisely control the burette I'd rather spend an hour looking for the proper glass ball than use metal clamp. E tier for that reason alone, everything else still true though.

[@panchemist]

I love the older minuscule burettes that are the wonders of glass-blowing technique. Having all those reservoirs attached to them. Glass stopcocks are a pain though. Don't even remember what kind of grease or smear was used to make them hold the solvent.

[@petrosstefanis6234]

A dad joke, a liebig condenser will never tell you the truth.

[@That_Chemist]

Lmao

[@HAL_9001]

Sidearm filter flask + Buchner funnel as a combo is S+ in my book. You can use different filter media for different reactions, _if_ it clogs it's because you're using the wrong media, and you can toss the filter instead of leaving a clogged frit for the next guy.

[@user-ze8pt5nd9v]

I'd put the Graham condenser in E at most. Cleaning it has almost given me PTSD.

[@STKhero]

Gas adapter in F tier?! A tier at worst, if you're doing any reaction in a round bottom that requires an inert atmosphere these gas adapters are necessary! Plus you can use them to monitor reaction progress when a gas is evolved and you have it connected to a bubbler.

[@pirobot668beta]

Outsiders perspective: Separator funnel is S tier...condensers and boiling flasks A tier. All else can be improvised, especially if you know how to work hot glass... Graduated cylinders are clearly F tier...measuring by volume? In this economy? Use a scale, measure by mass! Did I mention that I don't know anything about lab practices?

[@MrDJAK777]

That one broken graduated cylinder with a jagged top we all have is S tier tho.

[@VerbenaIDK]

everything can be improvised with the right things just doensy always mean you *should* improvise it

[@jermainerace4156]

"All else can be improvised, especially if you know how to work hot glass." ...there is a lot that can be improvised, but most people don't have the skills to make "all else" and besides may not be able to justify "I needed one of these so I spent the whole day making it" to their boss if they could have just ordered it off the shelf for

[@VerbenaIDK]

@@jermainerace4156 what if you need a custom piece at the spot tho? and for some reason thr lsb has a oxyhydrogen blowlamp?

[@cyan_oxy6734]

@@jermainerace4156 Every chemist should be able to make a test tube into a crackpipe in a pinch.

[@robertlapointe4093]

We always had a half dozen sodium/benzophenone stills chugging away in our grad school lab and they all used Friedrich's condensers, which are great for refluxing. Vacuum sublimators, flip-frits, mercury diffusion pumps, Toepler pumps and McCleod gauges were other standard glassware in that lab (organometallics). Also, Soxhlet extractors work great if you load your solids into cellulose or fritted glass thimbles with a plug of cotton or glass wool on top.

[@swan4439]

Well, from which ones could you smoke pot? From which could you make distilled spirits? Everything has more than one use no matter the original purpose.

[@Space_Reptile]

I've seen a solid addition funnels in a few dorm rooms Atleast I think that's what those where

[@Erosis]

For a pear-shaped glass, it's easier to collect crystals from a recrystallization compared to rbf. You did my man dirty.

[@hovant6666]

When Ex&F used a graham condenser and it filled with snowing precipitate it looked like the worst possible cleanup

[@That_Chemist]

I’ve had to clean one and it sucks

[@eier5472]

In our labs, the broken long necked funnels are then use as short necked funnels, until there's only the funnel left

[@That_Chemist]

Exactly

[@anhondacivic6541]

i agree with the glass syringe in E tier just because in my relatively short experience of working with them as a gas syringe, you've got a 65% chance of the plunger not being lubricated properly

[@That_Chemist]

Absolutely

[@anhondacivic6541]

@@That_Chemist just asking, where would you put the glass pipette?

[@joshp6061]

Disposable glass pipettes and vacuum flasks easily A or even S tier, so useful. Also less common NMR tubes, E or F tier they break too easily ffs

[@science_and_anonymous]

Those short-necked funnels are no joke with how sharp they can get! I can't even recall all the times I've had my gloves suddenly rip into two pieces because they got caught on of the edges. With that, seen some nasty cuts with people not being careful with them. Because they're hollow, they usually go pretty deep!

[@robertlapointe4093]

I remember one of my lab mates in grad school used a bit too much force capping an NMR tube in the glove-box. The tube snapped, went through the double thick butyl rubber glove and deep into her finger - blood in the glove-box!

[@theleva7]

I bought a propane burner to use in a lab specifically for blunting the goddamn broken necks because at one point every single one 56mm and larger diameter funnel got its neck broken. Best purchase for the lab I've ever made.

[@pmathewizard]

PSA: If your glassware have the following properties: - uncleanably sticky - uncleanably funny smelling - permanently discolored - permanently due to pressure or heat - have tenedcy to spontaneously crack and explode to pieces Please either the replace the glassware to prevent preventive amputation, emotional damage from ego and peers, or early forever sleep

[@whawdotca]

The glass fritted filter reaching S tier heights only to clog is so extremely relatable haha!

[@stephenjacks8196]

My undergrad advisor was doing early borane chem. He had me build hermetic glassware for air free chemistry.

[@That_Chemist]

cool!

[@tsm688]

so.. torch-sealing the glass around the experiment? or what?

[@stephenjacks8196]

@@tsm688 O2-H2 torch and pressure/vacuum tested "welded" glass joints. Some preforms like valves and flasks. No ground glass joints. Brazed glass-metal joints (Chloroplatinate). FYI some chemicals, like Diazomethane, decompose on contact with ground glass, even greased.

[@stephenjacks8196]

@chu HarrySurface area? 1. Some chemicals (e.g. diazomethane) decompose from ground glass contact. 2. Repeating similar experiments is easier than reassembing ground glass settups. 3. An unpaid student is less expensive than buying custom glassware. 4. Our Chem and physics depts had paid professional glassblowers (I had guidance.) Note lab supply companies will build custom glassware fot $$$. 5. The confidence that you tested the apparatus under pressure and vacuum yourself. And same apparatus worked the previous times. 6. Working with gases is different than working with well behaved liquids or even solids/powders. "Negative eddies" using non-hermetic connections.

[@stephenjacks8196]

@chu Harry offhand, several substances with negative heat of formation like NCl3 or C2H2 have been reported to have "explosive" chain reaction when contacting "active" surfaces like alumina or activated charcoal. We were methylating phenols for a documented EPA analytical method, free radical methylene insertion was to be avoided.

[@FishyJ]

0 dead rats in this video Running total: 2

[@That_Chemist]

You’re doing good work - S-tier

[@foxyfoxington2651]

Dead rats are strictly non-glassware laboratory equipment.

[@squelchedotter]

Since this is a reupload, I'm gonna have to reupload my comment about the S Tier short path condenser!

[@Christopher.Marshall]

How do pear shape flasks suck? Easier to recover solutions than from a regular RBF. Less bumping when evaporating in vacuo. A 100-mL pear flask doesn't sit too well in a small cork rings but turn over one of the larger cork rings, set it in and then your issue with them falling over is resolved.

[@That_Chemist]

they.... *pear poorly*

[@foxyfoxington2651]

@@That_Chemist That went pear-shaped quickly.

[@petevenuti7355]

I don't own any but I wanted some as I would have thought they would have been good for being able to fit both in my heating mantle and on my hot plate with good enough contact..

[@originalmianos]

A bit harsh in the side arm flask. They rock with a buchner filter for the vacuum line. Of course they suck when you pour from them with the side arm down, or anywhere but straight up. Which, of course sneaks downward when you are not looking.

[@Tadesan]

I've spent a LOT of time operating manual pipettes. Graduated and volumetric. I love the method of it. I also love that people still suck on the end of them... I really like soxhlet extractors. They are like little toilets.

[@janmelantu7490]

This was the first video of yours I ever saw (back on your old channel). Glad KZbin recommended your channel to me

[@That_Chemist]

I’m glad KZbin recommended my channel to you too :)

[@adrianhenle]

HOW DARE YOU BESMIRCH MY BELOVED SOXHLET EXTRACTOR but yeah, they're about as tricky as they are cool.

[@allenhonaker4107]

My first one worked great until I tried to clean it. I broke the inner tube trying to clean it with a qtip

[@bharatmadho3742]

man a burette in D tier made me so happy. one broke while i moved it because the glass part just fell out. a friend of mine broke the bottom of the burette wile turning the knob

[@somethingsafoot]

i wanna see NileRed reacting to this video, man i knew like 3 of these but idk why i cant stop watching these tierlists LOL

[@not_vinkami]

Why do I feel like I've seen the video before?

[@tsm688]

because it says in the desc that it's a reupload.

[@not_vinkami]

@@tsm688 reasonable. Thanks

[@SirFloIII]

TC: 3 necked roundbottom flasks, I hate these. me: but they look so neat! TC: and they look really cool to non-scientists me: oof...

[@That_Chemist]

hahaha

[@purplealice]

I remember when I could go to Edmunds Scientifics and browse through their lab-glassware shop. Great fun!

[@OmicronCoder]

Analytical chemistry erasure run amuck

[@VerbenaIDK]

I have a trick with syringes Altough it might not always be useful and I use thise cheap ten cent US HDPE syringes you can get at the pharmacie so take this with a grain of salt So, if the syringe is hard to pull, you can dissasemble it and put some teflon tape around the plunge thing The syringe never get's stuck or hard to pull from experience, obviously if you try to syringe gypsum paste it wont work well but it does the job and never failed me Might not work for eveything, but for me, it works pretty well Something I like to say: Teflon tape fixes everything!

[@petermorph0se]

Great video! I just miss the good old thermometer. Sep funnels and the stop cocked gas adapters are s tier in my experience. I dont put too concentrated solutions or solids in a sep funnel that is bigger than reasonable and dilute one or both phases if needed. The gas adapter is great for inert chemistry if you dont have schlenk flasks, and if you have an emergency bubbler for your nitrogen line you cannot get overpressure that easily.

[@meme__supreme3373]

surprised the wide neck funnel wasn't S tier for purpose of being a good funnel, but I guess the pout spout on a beaker is enough to limit the amount of solvent spilling to only "some solvent" painstakingly pipetting a few hundred mils works fine too ig

[@heath_00000]

I like the circle guy with the 3 necks. My favorite subject was history.

[@kenbrady119]

What about the humble glass stirring rod?

[@That_Chemist]

F-Tier

[@Fragmentofbone]

No glasswere can survive my hands.

[@Fragmentofbone]

One time my supervisor broke glass flask and told me to clean it up. Then I looked him in the eyes and sweped with my hand all glasswere that was on the table and told him to clean it up.

[@TreHazenF]

Every good YT chemistry channel uses column condensers for fractional destillation So I would swap positions with Claisen/Liebig :D I never used a Soxhlet but the theory sounds nice...I understand the ranking cuz I've never used it. This is where your practical experience helps to understand why some of these devices are bad. Clogging, pressure building up. It all makes sense Beakers still the best! I thought of getting some nice fresh once for home. They would make the best glass ware in the house for tea or coffee :D

[@christiannorf1680]

Gas adapter, dropping funnel with side arm, glass stopper, Schlenk flask (not on list) absolutely S tier. I do practically exclusively air sensitive chemistry, so perspective seems to be quite different :) In that case beakers, erlenmeyers and regular round bottom flasks are pretty much useless. Never heard of the solid addition funnel. The story made me actually laugh out loud. Schlenk line is S++ tier

[@table454545]

Sep funnel S tier cause how else are you gonna do a workup? Burette F tier, I just use a syringe. Beaker B tier, not many uses and it starts with B

[@ENANTIO]

I think it was too expected that flask and beaker would be in the S tier :)

[@LenKusov]

A Soxhlet extractor is just a worse version of an addition funnel, anything the Soxhlet can do the addition funnel can do with a little manual intervention every 10 minutes or so, and it can also actually be used to add things. Also, any addition funnel can be a powder addition funnel if you bring the magic wand to the lab, mama's little helper can do a much better job at getting things out of the funnel than that sticky, gritty, leaky corkscrew.

[@jansenart0]

No watchglasses?! How do you cover your beakers?

[@1brytol]

Parafilm. Or even just sandwich plastic foil.

[@saturnslastring]

Judging by the descriptions given for some of these apparatus, I'm convinced he's never used them.

[@randy0120]

PEAR SHAPED FLASKS ARE AMAZING!

[@randy0120]

Like no explanation to why?!?

[@crackedemerald4930]

Talking about glassware audibly reduced his health

[@That_Chemist]

Haha

[@theoverconfidenceofnapkins1857]

I use reflux dividers in my lab for distillation. S+, easy.

[@bajelman]

The true question is test tubes vs vials

[@That_Chemist]

Vials are better but test tubes have their place

[@That_Chemist]

Another way to ask this is “a vessel which can be sealed or a vessel which can’t”

[@tristan795]

@@That_Chemist Both can be sealed

[@brusicor02]

@@That_Chemist You can have test tubes with joint and stopper. 😉

[@DarkCook1es]

I well say I've never had a problem with a Graham condenser. they are my go to for making fuming H2NO4.

[@That_Chemist]

They are so bad

[@DarkCook1es]

@@That_Chemist naw just make sure you have it straight up and down. And don't put anything in it that is solid at room temperature. It's a small tube made for liquid and gas only. Idk everything has it's use.

[@filiphabek271]

You put my beloved sidearm/ vacuum extraction flask in C tier! Things in F tier are things that are almost never used so it makes sense, I only saw them displayed on display shelves in my college hallway. Yes, I also hate long neck funnels, I'd put them in E tier, they are atrociously unwieldly and shorter neck funnels can often do the same job.

[@yusefsadik8730]

pear shaped flasks are no way on F tier, they're a cheat code for rotavapor evaporation

[@Xeonerable]

Pear-shaped flask, no explanation F THIS THING That hatred runs deep. lol

[@chromatogiraffery3104]

The long-necked funnel, in theory, filters faster as the longer liquid column creates a better partial vacuum, which would be very relevant 150 years ago

[@TheBunzinator]

Possibly the nerdiest video I've seen. Well done, that man!

[@Erosis]

Gas adapter s-tier for Schlenk lines. I'm crying.

[@EvocativeKitsune]

Finally a video that's on my level.

[@Kualinar]

Pretty much spot on for the glassware that I'm familiar with.

[@DJslopp10]

Epic bong tier list

[@That_Chemist]

🗞

[@youngold95]

quickfit size tierlist S: B14 A: B24 B: B19 everything else is weird

[@jercos]

You really column as you see 'em.

[@That_Chemist]

Facepalm

[@SeekingTheLoveThatGodMeans7648]

Since these pieces of glassware are typically labeled, why can't suppliers actually put the name of the item upon them? It might sound stupid (give me that 2 liter beaker marked "2 liter beaker") but it would save a lot of newbies. The best ones to me would be made of some hypothetical breakproof material. I don't know if there are clear ceramics or anything like that, or whether in some cases it will actually be okay to use an opaque material akin to Corning ware. It just feels "wrong" to me to put some vicious reagent into something that only needs a knock of the wrong kind to shatter and splash that reagent all around. I'm leery enough just plain cooking in the kitchen with glass equipment, since burns (and cuts!) are no joke.

[@That_Chemist]

Ikr, it’s so dumb

[@TNTLuc]

Oh yeah, already before watching the vid I knew this will leave some room for discussion. I think I'm going to control myself and keep it to my most important point: Do you hate analytical chemistry that much, that you didn't even mention volumetric flasks? ;)

[@TheBayru]

Quite a long time ago, ... but I think he just hates washing up, which is what analytical chemistry mostly consists of.

[@PaulSteMarie]

I'm not quite sure what's going on with the Graham condenser. When I used them, which, admittedly, was decades ago, we had a distilling head that looked like your Klyson (sp?) adapter upside down. It had a male fitting going straight down, a thermometer fitting above it, a side arm about 8" long and filtered down about 15°, and then a second make fitting pointing straight down. The setup U used had the distillation column going up, the head going over, and the Graham condenser going straight down. The whole affair was about 2' tap and 1' wide; a fairly compact setup. All that said, I went looking on Amazon, and didn't see anything like what I used to use. Maybe they don't make them anymore?

[@lop2167]

I really like sep funnels. Disappointed with the rating. I might be biased though because it's one of the only things I ever use outside flasks filters and beakers

[@evil_me]

Dean Stark apparatus!

[@FUZxxl]

Where's my Anschütz-Thiele when I need it?

[@mihaialexandrupetre6736]

love your videos but I have never ever been in this situation. I disagree with everything: burette? F. dean-stark? B at best. Pear shaped flask? totally an S. etc lol 😅

[@chuckteeples530]

No sphincter glass funnel or gooch apparatus didnt watch

[@JoshuaNicoll]

Oh come on, a sepratory funnel is wayyy better than C tier, how else can you separate two or more different liquids without getting them all mixed up, it's not the glassware's fault you can't see the boundary between liquids or shook the DCM too much and formed an emulsion (the trick is to not shake DCM as it just loves being a goo, other solvents are fine), it has to be B or A tier, still a pain in the ass to clean though.

[@toronagasama9417]

Disagree with almost everything except S tier! Great videos tho. love the Ochem lectures and horrifying accident stories.

[@That_Chemist]

Thanks :)

[@prestonhanson501]

The only glass i use is for a bong

[@SqueezeBakon]

Stopper S tier for sure

[@SqueezeBakon]

Just watched the video and I'm in awe rn. I suppose I just conflated rubber and glass stoppers.

[@tv-pp]

i love cup

[@Drakeblood97]

Soxhlets are easily S tier, not just because they begin with an S, but also because they are the most effective method for extracting solid material and getting well over 90% recovery of target analytes. One does not do a reaction in a soxhlet, and therefore your assessment is rendered invalid.

[@DeathMetalDerf]

I love my soxhlet...😢

[@LARVAMOLT]

pearshapedcels seething over Erlenmeyerchads

[@salmeli5886]

what are peoples methods for cleaning a fritted glass buchner funnel? doesn't take long for them to clog up thats for sure.

[@irwinlandgrave1644]

Allihn condenser can be superior to liebig when set up vertically

[@NitronNeutron]

A simple test tube.

[@knoetzel8818]

Bought my first lab glass for a good price

[@Sam-ob4of]

In which tier would a flat bottom 2L boiling flask with a 29/32 bore be?

[@purplelotus531]

No pipette or volumetric flask, im offended. Jk

[@Blackdiamond2]

Haven't you already done this one on your old channel?

[@That_Chemist]

Yep! It’s a reupload

[@TheCobrabee]

What you are calling a Claisen condenser looks like a Liebig to me, but I could be wrong.

[@sugondiesthephilosopher]

A perkin triangle with an electromagnetic take-off and timer... sheeeesh that jawn do be scrapping 60:2 at 0.01 mmHg

[@christophergonzales8894]

What about the Clevenger?!