God = All-Good and All-Powerful?

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[@displacegamer1379]

It's always funny to watch them act like all of a sudden you started speaking a different language. You walk them through it and they seem to understand. Then you get to the point the contradicts with the religion and all of a sudden they have no way of comprehending what you just said. We just start speaking a different language. I think this video is like the perfect example of cognitive dissonance.

[@realSAPERE_AUDE]

Well, see, if you’re obedient then you can’t understand the inconsistencies 🤣

[@NN-wc7dl]

Exactly.

[@New_Essay_6416]

Dude you weren’t kidding Huge display of cognitive dissonance

[@wilberforce1826]

It's an even better example of refusing to let go of special pleading to get out of an obvious contradiction

[@Pitts_not_Pitty]

It's called cognitive dissonance. If you listen closely you can usually hear the gears in their head grinding when they reach that point.

[@MrSterlinglinford]

Heart breaking hearing someone so intentionally not understanding.

[@letsomethingshine]

Intentionally trying to remain a faithful believer in a certain verbal dogma/detail, yes.

[@AndJusticeForMe]

Agreed. He cannot yield to this heretic. 😂

[@51elephantchang]

You give him too much credit he is brainwashed IMO.

[@realSAPERE_AUDE]

Good one, Danny. There was some obvious discomfort/dissonance being experienced by this guy with some of the questions, especially the part where you asked about lying being part of the set of all powers. I really appreciate the clarity with which you speak to people. Thanks!

[@letsomethingshine]

I didn't think of "doubt" as being part of the set of all powers... until I finally did (thanks to an agnostic religion forum surfer with pseudonym Penumbra). That helped me understand the Buddhist idea of "deluded gods" and "deluded gods that compete with each other thinking they are the only and "necessary" Creator god."

[@brik74]

You can tell when they start to pick up on the traps, they start throwing in all kinds of caveats hoping to avoid it.

[@AndJusticeForMe]

Yep, they can see the cracks and desperately initiate damage control.

[@joelhackett6100]

Great job structuring your logical arguments. I really appreciated your pacing and your clarity. You are clearly very good at this, keep it up😊

[@acason4]

His brain completely broke regarding set theory because he could see the coming contradiction & he knows it’s a problem for his view. Another person using motivated reasoning & working backwards towards their preferred/presupposed conclusion. 🤦🏼‍♂️

[@Overonator]

You tied Bambi to a tree and fired an RPG at her. Gratuitous overkill.

[@callmeflexplays]

Danny, as soon as you said "the set of all abilities" this guy knew he was fucked. He melted down after that, done and dusted.

[@AndJusticeForMe]

All of a sudden, he doesn’t understand what a set is.

[@coffeesmug3406]

"I'm sorry you had to talk to me on your first day" lol

[@HarryNicNicholas]

24:00 lol. there's a trap coming, he knows there's a trap coming, he can't avoid the trap, but the trap! it'll hurt!!

[@Solutionsarejustcompromises]

Embrace the trap, its the only way

[@NN-wc7dl]

"It's impossible for God to do evil." Has he read the Bible? Mass murderers usually are considered evil.

[@piage84]

Yeah but if you are god and you give life then you can slaughter as much as you like and it's A-OK.... Or something like that

[@NN-wc7dl]

@@piage84 Yeah, the dissonance is echoing.

[@AggToaster]

I think its hard in the moment to have a view challenged and in real time think of a way out of it so most people just try to avoid the challenege. I think he will be thinking on that set part for a while.

[@Solutionsarejustcompromises]

Fist day on the job, straight to the End Boss, poor guy

[@AndJusticeForMe]

Elden Ring with a spatula.

[@silverlining2677]

Man....people REALLY need to know when to say "lemme think about that" instead of barfing out whatever nonsense pops in their brain.

[@j.gairns]

Seems obvious that an all powerful god that can't lie or commit evil acts is necessarily NOT all powerful.

[@Lmaoh5150]

If God has these two wills, a sovereign will and an emotive will, and the sovereign will is the ultimate truth-making will, then for the emotive will to be out of accordance with the sovereign would be irrational on that part of God. Does the emotive will not have knowledge of the sovereign will? Then some “part” of God is not all knowing. But if God’s emotive will is that all are to be saved, but if it knows that within the sovereign will’s plan there will be some that are not saved, it would have to be in accordance with the sovereign will in order to avoid being irrational. So this emotive will should not exist if God has the Omni properties.

[@davec-1378]

How to make theists uncomfortable- Strip away their ability to use woo, feel good, conflated, equivocations in their terminology and force them to use clear definitions with explanations They are accustomed to fuzzy language that they believe makes sense, but when clear terms are used the fallacious, non sequitur reasoning shines thru

[@HarryNicNicholas]

19:00 er, surely free will trumps everything, god can't stop me doing anything i want to do, in fact he never has stopped any evil ever occurring, and he doesn't stop evil cos it's part of a bigger plan, so evil is in fact good.

[@TheCannoth]

Rough. How many ways can he skin the cat but still deny he is skinning the cat.

[@davidcarey1538]

Classic example of Christianity make me sound stupid. Good job Danny

[@lastlevi]

This feels similar to trying to explain how If god is perfect how can god have wants and desires,

[@kingobama4305]

the christian idea of perfection is another attribute that makes absolutely no sense if you start digging into it. for example - if heaven is a perfect place, then why did satan and the other angels rebel? why is there dissatisfaction in a place that's supposed to be maximally great/desirable?

[@vincentsolis5149]

What are emotions to an all knowing being? What could sadden such a being? How can a being desire if they're both all powerful and all knowing (past, present, future)?

[@scottgodlewski306]

Believers define God out of existence.

[@lanceindependent]

Great convo!

[@samanthuel8746]

I really like this guy. Just like everyone, he has cognitive biases that make it hard to accept critiques of deeply held beliefs in the moment. But he comes across as honestly trying to understand Danny's critiques and address them seriously, even when failing to do so. And I think that's admirable. Not like the blowhards who try to steamroll and don't actually listen to Danny's arguments.

[@letsomethingshine]

This awesomely patient but gymnastically dogma-defensive guy is likely motivated by religious fear-mongering (or something else like guilt mongering or loyalty mongering etc) to not see that his "but that's not exactly correct" and "but that's not totally necessary" defenses/downplays for oxymorons like All-Powerful and impossible-perfections like All-Successful apply just as equally, if not more so, to his view of the dogmas/details themselves.

[@derkylos]

"That which does not glorify god=evil" implies that mundane things like walking down the street are evil...unless you think walking down the street glorifies god?...

[@AndJusticeForMe]

My goodness, the Squirm is strong with this one.

[@jjccarpentry]

Danny, do you have any experience running these types of objections by someone who is a strong Molinism defender, someone like Tim Straton? I'm wondering what that would look like, or if there would ultimately be much difference.

[@NN-wc7dl]

Don't like the word "set" this guy. He thinks another three-letter word like "God" is easier to understand.

[@deathbecomesboleyn6530]

How can I be a part of one of these debate's

[@frederickfairlieesq5316]

While he clearly had not heard this line of questioning before, it’s not like any other theist would’ve been able to give you much better answers. They just might be able to obfuscate and disguise their nonsense better than this guy.

[@piage84]

At minute 28, you can see his brain melting with his own definition of all powerful: god is in control of every events (like an author with his book) but god is also not responsible for three evil actions of people. This wins hands down the world Championship of "heads i win, tails i win as well". Let's make it sink guys. According to this guy, good controls our actions like an writer controls the characters of a book, but he's not responsible for the immoral things the characters do.

[@john_reese]

Classic theism in a nutshell

[@Joe-bw2ew]

All good. Be careful how you define " good". God might have His OWN DICTIONARY

[@crystalrauh9206]

There are different types of will

[@DannyPhilTalk]

And?

[@piage84]

​@@DannyPhilTalkand probably nothing... Also, the sky is blue, Danny.. remember that

[@flowdreas5351]

20:53 special pleading and the theist doubles down on being dishonest for the rest of the discussion 😢

[@JerryPenna]

Maybe you should check yourself when you say “all powerful” but don't really mean “all powerful”. You know you're trapped but dodging isn't the answer.

[@callmeflexplays]

God wrote a book but he's not responsible for what happens in the book. 🤣

[@daviddivad777]

it's easy to defeat white belts

[@DannyPhilTalk]

If it’s Christianity, it’s all easy. Not a hard issue.

[@daviddivad777]

@@DannyPhilTalk you say that as if people like William Lane Craig are not winning most of their debates. and tbh sounds a bit pedantic. Have you talked to Jimmy Stephens? Even if could do a better job than the guy from this video

[@DannyPhilTalk]

@@daviddivad777 WLC does win a lot of his debates. I’ve talked to Jimmy. He’s a gibberish generator.

[@kamilgregor]

​@@daviddivad777 what do you think WLC would say in response to Danny?

[@daviddivad777]

@@kamilgregor i think he would point out Danny's wrongheaded notion of omnipotence and point to stuff like Maximal Power Thomas P. Flint and Alfred J. Freddoso. Danny also seems to equivocate on good/goodness. WLC would say goodness, i.e., benevolence is xyz (list of virtues as an analytical identity in which ontology is grounded in God's nature, see finite and infinite Goods by Robert Adams). and the question if it's good for God to allow x event, is a different/generic use of good, not moral goodness. WLC would probably also say that God has reasons we don't have access to, including the atheist. e.g., God desired free will which means He can't force us to always be Good. but He didn't fail to be in accord with His desire. which was to create free agents. even though they technically get out of contradiction, i disagree with that 'solution'. as a Calvinist, we say God desired to create a world in which evil could obtain in order to display his attributes such are righteousness and justice by the punishment of those vessels of wrath (Rom 9)