Gordon Ingram's Westarm .308 Battle Rifle

[@Simplebutsandy]

"Some place more stable, like Somalia" Well if you insist...

[@jm9371]

EXACTLY what I was about to type... lol.

[@CrazyPalidin57]

Somalia wasn't too bad until it fell into civil war. Kinda a result of the vacum of power left as European nations abandoned colonies post WW2 combined with the Soviets meddling with trying to spread communism into lesser developed nations.

[@Psiberzerker]

Nicaragua?

[@Psiberzerker]

@@CrazyPalidin57 And yeah, rather than saying "We fucked this up," let's point out how fucked up Somalia is. "Some place more stable, like America." If we're more stable, we wouldn't need so many guns.

[@lairdcummings9092]

@@Psiberzerker that's a gross misstatement. In America, we have those great numbers of guns as a cultural artifact, and the stability of the country allows us to indulge in our fetish *without* destabilizing the country.

[@mattdirks7896]

Its kind of a shame that this didn't work out. A semi-auto 308 that looked classy-ish and could be made fairly cheap would be pretty nice.

[@niceguy391987]

A more stable place "Somalia" 🤣

[@badkingjohn5235]

The Somali government? Now that is a name I haven't heard in a long time..

[@stephenbinion6348]

Up till 1979 it was one of the more stable countries in Africa. Then it just spun out of control.

[@areed2000]

Indeed. Afghanistan used to be one of the more peaceful and tolerant countries. The world changes in strange ways.

[@duneydan7993]

@@stephenbinion6348 now Somalia is basically the word "CHAOS" in big red letters written on an East-africa map.

[@stephenbinion6348]

@@duneydan7993 I know. There was a time though. They were on our side for the Cold War and had a government. It actually rather sad. The lack of a coast guard to protect the fisheries caused the piracy off the coast.

[@wurzel9671]

3:26 "And they get the idea to take this rifle, but move it some place more stable - like Somalia." lmao

[@DefconMaster]

Somalia actually was fairly stable until the mid 1980s. It was only after the Somali Civil War and the collapse of the Barre regime in 1991 that things really fell apart.

[@Norkeys]

@@DefconMaster Yes exactly, I see a lot of jokes thrown around on this thread but Somalia was a military powerhouse well into the 80s, it was clan influence and corruption that lead to our civil war.

[@wurzel9671]

@@DefconMaster I know that, and I assume Ian does as well, but I still thought that joke was pretty funny

[@felixliang6877]

i almost spit out my water when he said that

[@SpiderDevice]

Me watching Forgotten Weapons: 🙂 Ian: "Oh boy, do we have a funky story today" Me, ready to get funky: 😎

[@stevenlee798]

You could never get a background story like that one to happen these days.... the true "good old days"

[@swendsenwiley]

Sporter AKs from eastern Europe that are remanufactured in Vermont & then "walked" to mexico for use by drug cartels(who convert them to full auto) seems just as wild to me.

[@FirstDagger]

"Officials at Lakeland Linder International Airport found the Matra 530 missile in a shipment to a defense contractor that uses the airport to house its fleet of fighter jets.", 2020.

[@logancurl9526]

@@FirstDagger what now? If that is a real story, please provide a link because I've got to see it lol

[@hendrickziegler8487]

Germany almost had such luck with the G36 successor. Haenel was chosen as the manufacturer for the new Bundeswehr rifle, a company that was big in WWII arms manufacturing. Nowadays they do however have a handful of employees only (Wikipedia states 8 as the number for 2018). Questions were raised if they'd really manufacture the six figure number of rifles necessary and they were deselected as it became clear that they worked as front man for a UAE company and the contract was provided to H&K. But yeah - a story not nearly as crazy.

[@williamprince1114]

The parallels to Bill Rugers development of the Mini 14/30 were startling

[@holy3979]

What's interesting is that this thing might actually see some commercial success if made in the US today.

[@blahorgaslisk7763]

@@callumwright7459 I'd be happy just having a sporterized version as I really like the look of it. For me this was very unexpected as I usually go for the really practical designs, stainless steel and synthetics, and no wood that has to be cared for! And yet I like the looks of this? I might be running a fever, yes, that has to be it...

[@FyremaelGlittersparkle]

I could see Ruger making something like this, to be honest.

[@celmer6]

@@FyremaelGlittersparkle Ruger did make something like this but better. It's called the Mini-14 and Mini-30.

[@richardsolberg4047]

@@FyremaelGlittersparkle A Mini 14 before there was a Mini 14 ...

[@Pinned2Five]

Came here to say this. They had me at M1 Carbine in .308. Everything else is Icing on the cake.

[@flavio_spqr]

Honestly, someone call Guy Ritchie! This story is perfect for one of his movies. It's just absurd, in the best way possible.

[@lairdcummings9092]

Looks like a Ruger 10/22's bigger brother.

[@lairdcummings9092]

Honestly, properly developed, this would still be a useful sporting rifle.

[@TheTransgenderAgenda]

10/22 supersized

[@tarmaque]

More like a knock-off Mini-14. The genetics of the design are quite similar.

[@lairdcummings9092]

@@tarmaque halfway between; the choice of the M1 carbine basis was very smart - simple and proven. The ergonomics of the M1 carbine and the 10/22 are quite similar.

[@xoxo2008oxox]

Or like a Mini-14 bigger brother...

[@charlesinglin]

That looks like a perfect offering for the "California Legal" market.

[@oiartsun]

Yup. Detachable magazine-fed but no pistol grip, so I could even change the furniture to something in polymer and as long as I didn't change to a pistol grip I could own this here in California.

[@Bloodreign137]

As a Californian, can confirm when he said it was available in 7,62x39 and took AK mags I got excited before remembering I was watching “forgotten weapons”

[@troy9477]

I was thinking the same thing. Good to go with 10 round mags

[@BasedOddz]

Yeah your right it sounds like a gun the democrats would build... One that dont work and cost 5 million for 10 of them... "Defrauding the American People is a Capital offense."

[@allangibson2408]

@@BasedOddz Defrauding the American people gets you a presidential pardon… (At least when the Republicans are in charge (refer Steve Bannon)).

[@johnhughes1140]

I love this concept! !! A full power cartridge in a 30 carbinish sized rifle! Somebody needs to pick up this design, refine it to get the bugs out and sell me 3 of them. 1 in each caliber. In .308 this would be an amazing deer rifle!

[@tamlandipper29]

Everyone laughing about Somalia hasn't grasped how easy it is for promise and potential to be betrayed.

[@noneed4me2n7]

Love your channel. I recently inherited a Remington 550 that my dad and I shot together when I was a child. My goal is to get it functionally restored (last time we had it out when I was a lad it always jammed after the first round) so I can share the experience with my kids. I’ve been following your channel for a while now and really appreciated all your efforts at documenting these marvels of engineering.

[@ALIGwedew62]

This it boys, the 308 m1 carbine

[@Lumadous]

Ohhhh, I see what's behind you and I'm already excited

[@schrodingersgat4344]

The two {screen left} got drunk... ... and made the one on the right.

[@davem2369]

He's previously covered all 3 at some point in the past

[@JohnDoe-mx2kp]

@@badgermcbadger1968 looks like a m2 browning hmg, a mg42 and a m60 to me.

[@ulriklange3924]

@@schrodingersgat4344 awesome comment 😄💪 .... Salute, from Denmark 🍻

[@a.h.504]

Meh, another M60 video? I doubt it.

[@turbografx16]

That disassembly is really neat.

[@Shaneshaneshaneb]

Are we not going to talk about the rack behind Ian?! Lovely set.

[@iansnell8897]

M60: MG42: Ma Deuce....

[@RealMrSmit]

The idea with the mags are perfect.

[@marvindebot3264]

That is actually a very nice design and with a bit of refinement, I'd like one. Do it in stainless steel and it would be a great truck/boat/airplane/ski cabin/whatever gun. It's a 7.62 NATO not much larger than the size of an M1 carbine. That has to be a good thing for a lot of uses where size and weight and firepower are all important. No trouble getting mags either!

[@duncanwilson9533]

That sounded like a sales pitch at the end. I guess Morphy wants him to move that rifle real bad.

[@andersbendsen5931]

I think he's just loving it. 🤷‍♂️

[@douglasclark1894]

Interesting that the concept for this rifle is very similar to the mini14 and at about the same time frame. Both rifles are simplified versions of a Garand style action that used casting extensively. These guys had the foresight of having their rifle use AR/AK mags for their respective calibers instead of proprietary mags.

[@Khalrua]

seems like a really well designed platform

[@sandych33ks1]

The spring loaded sling for detaching the stock is genius..

[@harperhellems3648]

.308 out of a m1 carbine sized frame? Hoodaddy

[@donjones4719]

In full auto! It would have made the M14 feel like a Bren gun.

[@bmag02]

I can't be the only one getting some major 10/22 vibes from the shape of the grip and stock.

[@maroman556]

This is a gorgeous looking rifle.

[@b-conn6624]

Like that giant hole in the receiver behind the bolt. Great place for dirt and mud.

[@fg42t2]

It's covered by the stock and makes it easy to clean the bore from the rear.

[@Ni999]

@@fg42t2 Gaping hole at 5:57 and 6:34 - how is that covered by the stock?

[@b-conn6624]

@@fg42t2 all I'm saying is in the mud test this thing would probably fire once and jam.

[@theharbinger2573]

So nobody in Italy thought to test fire the guns before shipping them to Somalia? That is some serious engineering hubris. The least Ingram could have done was go to Italy and test the guns before delivery to the customer.

[@neutronalchemist3241]

No firearm (any single sample) can be sold by an Italian manufacturer without having been tested by a public proof house. The rifles obviously worked and cycled without signs of overpressure even when proofloaded. They had not been tested for field use, that requires different tolerancies than for range use. That was something that the designer should have taken into account when designing the rifle. Not something that the manufacturer could adjust by arbitrarily changing the given specs.

[@skookapalooza2016]

The quintessential "What if?" rifle. Mr. Ingram had the benefit of seeing the Garand, M1 Carbine, M14 & FAL. So, he took an eclectic approach and produced a frankenrifle. However, it was really a step backwards. The AR system was the wave of the future, and the Mini-14 answered the "What if?"...well...sort of.

[@richardelliott9511]

From a current view point it's hard to think that in the late 70s any military would be looking at a rifle that wasn't an AR, AK or FN FAL derivative.

[@TheCat48488]

Ingram seems to have a knack for chaotic business deals...

[@SafetyProMalta]

Gave me a headache just following the story...😂😂 Hallmarks of Sabre Arms.

[@philipcaseyacalloway204]

That seems like a really smart and simple design. Very cool piece of history.

[@craigevans6156]

Saw your Varustaleka advert for the beard oil! 😂😂😂

[@12345NoNamesLeft]

Typo The production guns were select-fire, but the handful or prototypes brought into the US were semiautomatic only, or = of

[@russellst9441]

Some really nice design and manufacturing solutions here. Might have made a nice sporter

[@OpaKnows]

I’m shocked, shocked I say, to hear that there is corruption in Somalia.

[@dphalanx7465]

"Be prepared to round up the uaual suspects..." lol

[@OpaKnows]

@@dphalanx7465 Casablanca. Good movie. Same continent. “Of all the gin joints...”

[@jimkoney4200]

Cool rifle. Cool story behind the rifle.

[@loupiscanis9449]

Thank you , Ian .

[@BruceEEvans1]

That is a very well designed rifle.

[@mikehound8315]

Ian do you have a video on the Winchester model 100?

[@LordKhyron85]

I've actually always wondered what the result would have been if Ruger had decided to make a scaled-up M1 Carbine instead of a scaled-down M14.

[@ben501st]

It looks like the area where the serial number is stamped is ground flat and maybe touch up blued.

[@VMEMotor5]

That is really neat. I could see it as a civilian hunting/plinking/defensive weapon. Perhaps a police weapon, but not a military weapon.

[@pekkalipponen1933]

Uncle Ians fantastic bedtime stories.

[@katsu-graphics5634]

That's a very appealing rifle.

[@johncashwell1024]

Ruger was able to sell their select-fire Mini-14 in 5.56mm NATO to a handful of countries and I am sure Ruger would have designed a 7.62x39 version if they had been asked to by a prospective buyer. Of course Ruger make them now in 7.62x39 but when did they first do it, I am curious. Anyway, it seems Ingram was trying to produce something that was already available.

[@johnmc6155]

That Belongs In A Museum !! Somalia getting some of the Ingram love.

[@jacobhuisman3489]

Son of a....I was thinking my list of traditional-stocked, removable magazine rifles to collect was done. My wallet can't take three more!

[@amphibiousone7972]

Very interesting history. Thanks Boss, keep them coming. 👍🏜️

[@guaporeturns9472]

someplace stable like Somalia” .. never thought I would hear that.

[@froodefroo]

slick af rifle. needs a bit of r&d love and i bet it'd sell well up in canada since the m14 is now prohibited.

[@scoutrifle6827]

If there was a modern, reliable version of that, I'd buy it TODAY.

[@TraTranc]

*WRITING THIS BEFORE ACTUALLY WATCHING THE VIDEO SO BEAR WITH ME* The Ingram/Westarm rifles in .308/7.62mm, 5.56mm/.223 and .243 Winchester were manufactured in Italy for civilian sales by (now defunct) C.O.M. Armi. They're beautiful guns and I just wish I had one.

[@SwordsMen4]

Dude, Ian, that goatee, nice.

[@fivizzano]

a m a z i n g !!! now we got this out of our system, BIG QUESTION, have you ever heard of a semi auto "mod" to the Italian 91, allegedly made in 1939-41 at the Terni or La Spezia offices of OTO ? My uncle who was working there (after the war he became head of design of the Whitehead torpedo factory in Livorno ) told me he heard at the time of a test prototype which alleggedly was very good and easy to install on regular rifles albeit costly as it was labor intensive, I guess needed lots of machining.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oKPTaISCiNF-epY

[@chapiit08]

As a lover of classic wood and steel firearms I have to confess that if I owned that rifle I couldn't help sleeping with it for some time before getting used to it's presence in my vault.

[@tedarcher9120]

Finally, the scaled up scaled down m1 garand

[@justinjones9042]

Very cool I wanted to build a m1 carbine cambered in 350 legend myself .

[@JRbiker1]

Dang looks like a Ruger Mini14 in .308. Come on Ruger there's your Maxi14.

[@rendered-papillon]

This strikes me as very mini 14ish. As a guy who grew up around the Mac factory, I’d love to see this brought back.

[@rosewhite---]

lovely looking gun!

[@Mag_Aoidh]

Interesting that the receiver design of the rifle wouldn’t pass “modern reliability testing” yet saved the world during numerous conflicts.

[@mopar_dude9227]

I always laugh when people dump on the M1 Garand, or the M1 Carbine, saying that they were junk because of the exposed areas allowing dirt and such in. The damn well put enough Germans, Italians, Japanese, and North Koreans (and some VCs) in the ground to be proven as a great battle rifle. And it is pretty high praise when someone like Patton claims that the Garand is what won the war. Maybe soldiers in WW2-Korea didn’t drop their rifles as much back then.

[@benjaminphipps8325]

I would say modern consumers demand more from their rifles than the actual military. The “tacticool” group of gun owners want to use the bayonet to chop lumber, mortar it on concrete, throw sand through the ejection port and fire ten thousand rounds without cleaning. And if it fails they’ll destroy it on the internet. That’s why a lot of people to this day don’t like ars and prefer ak styles. I use a polymer lower ar with budget accoutrements and it’s never failed. However, I’m not using it as a war club or speed bump. So idk

[@barrylarking8986]

One of the better April Fool's efforts. 'Dominican Republic', Hungarian gun designer, Arab's with suitcases of money, Lebanese 'businessman', Somalia ... - I want the D.V.D.!

[@eusebioortiz390]

I'm always interested in all things Ingram.

[@brucep9342]

Palmetto State Armory should buy up this patent, close up the top of the receiver and mill it for a picatinny rail, change the old locking lugs out for beefed up version of their in house roller delay lock, thread the barrel, and most importantly, serialize the cast trigger group housing. This could be the next best thing to sliced bread. I'd buy one!

[@tedarcher9120]

It will be completely different rifle though

[@kowell]

Not gonna lie, an M1 carbine in 223 or 7.62x39 sounds awesome

[@FelixstoweFoamForge]

i just watched a video on the Walther Volkspistole from like 8 years ago....WHY isn't this man looking ANY older? And Ian is so right...the story behind this does sound like something Frederick Forsythe would've come up with.

[@TheArgieH]

Don't ask about the oil painting in the back of the gun cabinet.

[@ForgottenWeapons]

My secret trick: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lWGwdWqVbaaehKM

[@steven-k.]

@@ForgottenWeapons Hahaha, although I'm not sure I'd be putting it on my face, the Vietnamese were enthusiastic about using it on the M16s they took off the ARVN and it wrecked the fibreglass or whatever the furniture is made out of.

[@pahunter3]

This is something that might become a way to have semi automatic rifles in the US that don’t scare the left so much as the “black rifles” have been over the years. One of the semi automatic bans proposed excluded the Ruger Mini-14.

[@johnhans2929]

Somebody needs to finish the design development and make these again.

[@danielwang2956]

Just imagine if COVID hit in the 70s the amount of faxing we'd all have to do

[@mekaerwin7187]

If Covid hit in the 70's the response would be a bit different I expect.

[@45auto82]

Well done, Ian! I wonder if just simply increasing the recoil spring strength would have increased the lock time/dwell enuf to improve the rifle’s perf to the point of making it at least functional? First thing I would have tried...however I guess we’ll never know. Great review & content! Love the details you usually try to include that provides “The Rest of the Story” (Paul Harvey😎). Cheers!

[@neutronalchemist3241]

Spring strenght has practically no impact on opening time.

[@Svveet69]

what a beautiful rifle. Would love to own one

[@sjhoff]

Ruger could have just bought this design and called it the XGI, saved themselves some money for the same outcome.

[@tomtruesdale6901]

I like it! Very interesting rifle and the story behind it sounds like one told around a camp fire over LOTS of beer.

[@ductileiron98]

Interesting story. Handsome rifle

[@RichardCranium321]

This seems to have developed at the same time as Jim Sullivan & Bill Ruger's mini 14... very interesting story and multiple similarities between the 2 from what I can see

[@NVEMBER]

the space between the bolt and the receiver bothers me, makes me feel like it wouldn't stand up to a mud test.

[@kevinfox1780]

Nice looking rifle

[@mikehoare6093]

A pitty that Ingram and WerBell are gone, that could have been a 1mio. views interview !

[@elijahf111]

dude this thing is cool af

[@troy9477]

Looks like a great design with a lot of potential. Modifying the Carbine makes perfect sense, esp for a tird world factory- no need to reinvent the wheel, plus the changes simplify production somewhat. If i had to guess, the pressure of 223 and 308 were just a bit high for the design (7.62x39 is a little lower, and might be the best choice). That can all be addressed, of course. I bet they were relatively light too- maybe 7 lbs? Which is great. Beautiful wood on that one too- wobder wgere it was sourced. The build quality looks fine, even the parkerizing or matte finish on the trigger group and mag housing. A new version with a recoil pad and scope mounting ability would make a great knockaround/casual sporting rifle, esp here in Kalifornia- perfectly fine with 10 round mags. I would like one in 7.62x39- would probably shoot rings around an SKS, once the design is fleshed out completely. Wait, what? Somalia was perceived as being more stable than the DR??!! My, how times change. The whole story would probably make a good international intrigue movie. Maybe Brad Pitt as Gordon "Wardaddy" Ingram and some weasely guy as the exec who absconds with the Arab cash? Probably better than most of the recycled dreck that Hollywood is pumping out now. Let's hope someone resurrects this design, or something like it. Great video as always. Thank you

[@TheQuidditchfan]

Basically a mini 14 or mini 30 if you changed the magazines over to AR or AK mags. Then up scale it to .308. This was basically making a gun that already existed.

[@goforbroke4428]

Jason S the mini 14 is a scaled down M14. This is a scaled up m1 carbine style rifle.

[@reaperov6016]

I'd pay pretty decent money for one of these in 7.62x39. Love an esoteric battle rifle

[@machintelligence]

A well designed, beautifully finished example of a miserable concept. Was this video perhaps released a day late?

[@Odood19]

What I would pay to get one that's battle ready. Beautiful gun.

[@cyphosthadon4123]

Would've really liked to see a few million get made but oh well.

[@willy480able]

.308, Garand bolt, wood stock. Surprised the Ordnance Corp didn’t buy this in quantity.

[@calderniven8110]

Honestly I would listen to the history and development background as an audiobook. Forgotten Weapons: Histories. aka story time with Ian.

[@tomparker9001]

Holy crap you can’t make shit like that up. Gotta love 70s cheeze

[@davidbowman2716]

Lovely rifle. Could be a sports or a battle rifle.

[@MrShtbrick]

Its like everything that the Mini-30 would never be.

[@davidbrennan660]

Controls set to funky.

[@hairydogstail]

Looks like a great rifle for Ruger to build with their casting expertise..

[@vampire847]

The fact that the .223 version and the 7.62x39 versions didn't succeed makes me so sad. I'm one those freaks that wants a mini14 and mini30 that take AR mags and AK mags...

[@paulbarthol8372]

It's a wild wild world

[@mementomori4972]

That really is a beautiful rifle! I love it!

[@Breakfast_and_Bullets]

3:59 - So basically Ingram made the Mini-14 for foreign armies?

[@george2113]

Sorry to quibble, but on the 308 rifle is that inch or metric FAL magazines?