Greaves, Defense for the Lower Leg

In the 3rd video in the series we will focus on lower leg defense of the late 14th and early 15th century, cased greaves.
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An Analysis of 1300 Effigies Dated Between 1300 and 1450 by Douglas W. Strong
talbotsfineacce...
Jeff Wasson, Armorer
www.wassonartis...
#medievalarmor #livinghistory #knyghterrant

[@krisztianpovazson4535]

I wonder if this special need for the greaves and sabatons to be form-fitted more than any other part of the harness was part of the reason why they were not included in the more mass-produced "three-quarters armours" of the later cuirassiers.

[@jared925]

Thanks for posting a link to the effigy analysis. That really does help me a lot.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Jared McClelland Yes it's an indispensable resource. You just have to be careful using it. Regional differences do matter, so you can see from the charts that Germany and England have differing trends, so if you're focusing on a very specific location try to use regional data. Also the dating on effigies is never precise. They're generally dated by the year of death of the person depicted. That doesn't mean the effigy was commissioned and carved that year. So there is some leeway in the dating.

[@jared925]

Thanks. I didn't even think about the regional differences. I'm wanting a German inspired suit so I'll try to just use the German effigies page.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Please also browse the following websites. They are searchable by location and years and contain an incredible amount of primary source material: www.effigiesandbrasses.com and it's sister sites www.manuscriptminiatures.com and www.armourinart.com

[@jared925]

I really cannot thank you enough. These help me tremendously.

[@KnyghtErrant]

No problem. When I get done with this arming series maybe I'll do a video on good web sources for armor and historical research.

[@svargyle]

Just discovered your channel. Love your videos, really enjoying this series. It's clear you've spent a lot of effort and expense in getting your harness historically correct. Thank you for sharing that with us. Question, how is the type of steel chosen for each piece? Is spring steel historically accurate for your period? What are the compromises?

[@KnyghtErrant]

+S/V Argyle Thank you! There really is no perfect analogue for historical steels from what we have available today. Historical armors were made from everything from pure iron to medium and high carbon content steels. The big difference though is steel plates in period were generally made from a bloomery furnace where the resulting 'bloom' was hammered into plates by a plattner. Modern steels are of course manufactured in perfectly uniform sheets of consistent thickness with homogeneous content. There are samples of high quality armors in the late 14th century that contained what we would consider today medium carbon content and were heat treated and hardened. Moving into the 15th century we see even more examples of quality heat hardened steels used for armor. So my armor, being 1050 spring steel is an attempt at something similar to a high quality medium carbon content steel from period, but inevitably it's not precisely the same thing. Performance and weight are very similar however.

[@lordllewellynofdarkdelight2613]

Thank you this was very helpful.

[@EvilMerlin]

Well done!

[@Whathellllll]

Really appreciating your work here, I do have a small question: Could the pin and the staple be dateted from 1370 to1400? I'm part of a group of reenactors in Italy and we're trying to stay faithful to the period of time from 1360 to 1380; I'd really like a system of suspension for the greaves like yours, but I'd also like to keep everything historically accurate for the sake of my group, thank you for the good work! :)

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Whathellllll The leg harness on the Bashford Dean armor at the Met has a staple visible on the left greave here (www.pinterest.com/pin/294845106830660788/) and is dated 1380-1400. The Kelvingrove closed greave (www.pinterest.com/pin/294845106830608393/) has a surviving staple and is dated to right around 1400. The Bargello (www.pinterest.com/pin/294845106830608460/) closed greave shows where a staple used to be and is also dated to around 1400 I believe. The problem is there's not much actual survivals of true 14th century armor, and a staple on the back of a greave is likely not something visible on a funeral effigy. Now for hte pin, the armour in the Musee de Beaux Arts from Chartres, attributed to Charles VI when he was a boy shows a hole in the greave where a pin likely was, and a corresponding hole in the demi-greave hanging off the poleyn, and it is dated somewhere near 1380 as well. (www.pinterest.com/pin/294845106830406467/) (www.pinterest.com/pin/294845106830412744/).

[@Whathellllll]

Then it's likely they already had the technology for making this type of leg harness in the final 30-40 years of the 14th century, thank you very much!

[@Nieumarlamalpa]

so if you were to hit the gym to get ripped you would need to buy bigger armour? hmmm never thought about that

[@lughfiregod16]

+Cpt. Gavorn Yeah, if you plan to get larger muscle, or narrow down, do that _before_ you get armor.

[@LutefiskSavage]

Or have armour of a style that makes accommodations that way. there are 3 part splinted greaves from an earlier style that buckle shut in the back. Similar adjustable armour forms could be used over the large muscle groups too.

[@lughfiregod16]

LutefiskSavage True, and you can also get it adjusted at a smith. However, it is easier to just be in the shape you want to be wearing the armor in, before it is made.

[@rchave]

Curiously I have yet to see any evidence of a medieval guy with gym muscles. Fighting, training, hunting, even warbows, will end up with dense wiry muscles. Only ancient greeks or closet gays need to worry about bulking up.

[@GregTom2]

That's probably why you'd remain a squire until you were 21. Just got to make sure that growth spurt is done before you invest any money.

[@TheAca300]

Morrowind tought me greaves are for the upper part of the leg...

[@scubashark5962]

Ian, first off, great videos. Question, what was worn under the greves? Was it textile, or, mail?

[@KnyghtErrant]

Stout wool hosen is the most common garment worn under plate leg harness. There is evidence for small patches of mail being worn at the instep of the ankle and behind the knee to cover some of the gaps left by the rest of the armor, but this is not universal.

[@hery19741]

Great work cheers.

[@ryancoker8198]

What about a smaller set of plates attached to the greave to protect the joint between it and the sabaton?

[@Maximilien1462]

Very nice work ! I was wandering since the video on sabatons, about the heel piece... doesn't it hurt your achilles' tendon when your foot is extended ? I noticed it is pretty high and there is no lip on this piece... Keep it up, sir ! It's very interesting indeed.

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Huet Maximilien Hi, thanks! No the sabaton doesn't come up high enough in the back to dig into the back of your ankle even with the ankle in full plantar flexion.

[@Johpickfan]

I'm really sorry to add a comment that interrupts this serious conversation but as a non-native speaker of english, when i just listened to this video while my boyfriend next to me watched it, I understood "male hoes" all the time :D What is he actually saying??

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Johpickfan lol, :) It should be mail hose, as in leggings (single leg pants) made from mail (chainmail).

[@Johpickfan]

hahaha okay thanks :D again sorry for this awkward interruption :D

[@KnyghtErrant]

Johpickfan It's no problem!

[@sprucetwigs4864]

this is so cute ^-^

[@AngelsArmour]

Question. When you talk about how the cased greaves are spring steel which helps them form a tight fit was that authentic? Did they have spring steel back then?

[@rchave]

+Lael Jones Yes- as far as I am aware, steel quality is from both the carbon content and how it's tempered. Steel *could* be made to a very high standard throughout the 1300's, and most of the surviving armour we have from 1400 onwards is of as high a standard as modern steel. It wasn't so much about developing knowledge, as much as developing industry and economy so it got more common.

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Lael Jones Yes. 'Spring steel' is just a modern term to denote steels of high enough carbon content to allow hardening (generally everything with 0.3% carbon or more). Hardening was done in the 14th century on high quality armors. especially in Italy. It became more common through the 15th century. There is ample evidence that our medieval counterparts did not understand the metallurgy quite as well as we do now, because we have surviving pieces of armor that were made from pure iron, or low carbon steels that were put through the heat treating process, which of course will not work on low carbon steel or iron. It seems they didn't quite know exactly how to determine carbon content and what was and what was not harden-able, but they knew how to accomplish the process and did so successfully on many extant examples. The use of modern medium carbon steels to reproduce armors like this are one of the best analogs we have available to us, but real medieval steel would have been produced from a bloomery furnace. The end results of hardened and tempered modern spring steels are 'similar' but not identical to what they would have had available in medieval high quality medium carbon steels.

[@ununius7436]

Awsomee video.

[@oifaye]

Great video. I heard that custom made armor can be pricey. Where did you get your greaves and how much did they cost for a pair? Do you have any suggestions for cheaper options?

[@KnyghtErrant]

+oifaye The majority of my armor was made by Jeff Wasson (www.wassonartistry.com). Any armorer whose work is shown in my videos should be listed in the description. As far as price goes, they can get expensive, but when it comes to something like greaves it's difficult to justify going with cheap options because the fit needs to be so precise in order for them to function properly. There are very good armorers in Eastern Europe who are doing work at very competitive prices. Depending on where you are, the drawback is not being able to visit an armorer in person for precise measuring / fitting.

[@docstockandbarrel]

All his hose was honest.

[@tristanspencer8471]

Any greaves in the 15th century that only cover the front?

[@TheGoodCrusader]

Horse, the cars of old

[@joshuagrigartis4610]

I do have to make a point that the Greeks of 5th and 4th century BC were wearing plate greaves. Albeit theirs were made of bronze (speculation says they might have had iron too). So plate armor existed long before the medieval period.

[@KnyghtErrant]

Yes of course, but the context of this video series is surrounding the rebirth of plate armor in the high to late Medieval. I'm in no way trying to suggest that people didn't wear forms of plate armor in Antiquity.

[@joshuagrigartis4610]

Knyght Errant - Fair enough. Thank you for the clarification.

[@ShengTheCraftsman]

i have been trying to find greaves that has mail attached to it, but no luck finding any online, i have made the mail of the front ankle, now all i had to do is complete the greaves

[@KnyghtErrant]

You'd be limiting yourself to only consider the objects displayed on the websites of various armorers. Most custom armorers should be able to build you what you want or refer you to someone who can. I would email a few armorers and see if they are interested in taking on such a project.

[@codyhettrick2672]

do you know of any examples of 14th century greaves that were hardened leather (not splinted)? or mail greaves worn with a solid metal knee cop and solid or splinted cuisse?

[@andrewstrongman305]

How thick is the plate you use?

[@KnyghtErrant]

+andrew strongman depends on the piece of armor, some lames on pieces like sabatons are less than 1mm thick up to over 2mm on pieces like the skull of the helmet

[@DIGUALMA5CASSAS]

Without padding and so closely fitted to hard parts of the body, would a hit in the greaves hurt much more than one in the arms, or in other kind of not enclosing greaves with padding?

[@KnyghtErrant]

The arms are not particularly padded either, but no it's not bad to take shots in those places. In fact, under plate armor, the padding, if present, is pretty light. The surface of the armor is very good at dissipating the force of the blow, a feature that is aided a bit by the close fit. On foot, against an opponent who can defend themselves, swinging for the greaves may not be too advisable anyway, unless special circumstances dictate otherwise.

[@DIGUALMA5CASSAS]

Thanks for the answer

[@sierranevada806]

Where do you find high quality, functional ("battle ready") Armor and arming garments?

[@zedman6547]

I'd try kult of athina but it's really pricy

[@zedman6547]

I'd try kult of athina but it's really pricy

[@lol3xtrach3353]

He has links to the people he bought his armor from in his video of him putting a full suit of armor on.

[@rchave]

For highest quality functional armour, you won't be able to buy it 'off the peg'. There are many armourers out there to look into, your options usually depend on where you live. So long as they know their stuff it's basically down to how much you want to pay. Before you decide on one i'd recommend asking some previous customers whether the moving lames pop out or get stuck, some guys do beautiful shaping/design but aren't fussy enough for perfect articulation. Arming garments should *ideally* be tailored but Historic Enterprise are generally the best off the peg. There are loads of others but often the patterns aren't great. Don't get any doublet that doesn't either have a horizontal seam at the waist or a "corset" back, that's the bit that needs to be really snug.

[@lunarwicca5826]

rchave look for Medieval Rats, they are the best I've found soo far

[@MrHusang23]

I wonder how the medieval armorers made these? They obviously didn't had their customers there all the time to take measurements of their legs. Did they used casts too?

[@KnyghtErrant]

There are sources that describe clients sending well fitting clothing to their armorers for this role. A close fit pair of hose and doublet can do a lot in the absence of the client himself. I've heard people mention wax castings or things similar but I've never seen any sources that actually support this.

[@MrHusang23]

@@KnyghtErrant Thank you!

[@godofimagination]

Would a splinted greave sit on the top of the foot or would it be pointed to the poleyn?

[@cryoshakespeare4465]

Would it not be possible to fit some sort of shaped undergarment beneath an unfitted greave in order to serve as a sort of psuedo-shaping? Surely not every individual who had a set of plate greaves (eg. a person who nicked them off a dead man-at-arms) would have had them perfectly fitted, and so perhaps there were ways of reducing the issues caused by that at least to some extent?

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Cryoshakespeare It's possible, but every time you introduce a departure from intended fit, you begin to sacrifice functionality in some way. What I talk about in the video is the ideal. Is that always done? Probably not. But every little step from that ideal will make armor less and less comfortable and functional until you end up at a point where the armor is now more hindrance than benefit.

[@cryoshakespeare4465]

Knyght Errant Yes, that seems logical. Thanks for the reply, and great videos by the way, I've learned so much! ^_^

[@edi9892]

I understand why people were wearing greaves, but I don't get why they would wear underneath mail stockings/socks or why this gap needs to be closed in case of sabatons.

[@KnyghtErrant]

+edi Greaves fit too closely to wear mail or padding underneath them. There are several depictions of using a small patch of mail on the front of the ankle and instep of the foot to close that small gap though.

[@edi9892]

Knyght Errant The mail-stockings was meant to be sarcastic, but refers to depictions of knights that seem to have their entire leg enclosed in mail (even the foot). Sometimes additional plates were depicted, but nothing close to the greaves you have. I got serious doubts that the protection there justifies the additional weight.

[@rchave]

Plate is lighter for the same coverage. If you've got plate greaves, mail underneath is the dead weight. All they'd have left is tiny, optional, patches to cover the gap as described above.

[@kyletoelle]

For demi greaves, if you don't wear sabatons, how do you suspend them or wear them in such a way as to not destroy the top of your foot?

[@KnyghtErrant]

The greave should not be pressing into the top of your foot if it fits correctly. It should be held up by the shaping over the top of the calf's muscle-belly, and often by pinning to our strapping to the demi-greave on your cuisse. - kzbin.info/www/bejne/kKbYoYmHf753ZtU

[@austriangamer2009]

May I ask a question?In some games and movies medieval knights are depictedonly wearing greaves with knee cops without cuisses or an suspension system.My question:Is this a practical way to wear greaves and is it historically accurate?Thanks in advance for helpful answers.

[@KnyghtErrant]

It's not uncommon to see front greaves (schynbalds), or greaves that lace on being worn with a floating knee cop and no cuisses in the early 14th century, but when it comes to fully enclosed greaves, they usually shown as being part of a full leg harness. Can it be done? Yeah, but the greaves absolutely need to have a spot on fit or they will slide down and rest on your foot making it very cumbersome to move around since the greave wouldn't be supported by anything above it.

[@austriangamer2009]

Thank your very much for your fast answer.It´s a great honour and joy to have it answered by you sir.With kind regardsaustriangamer200

[@floydkeimiii303]

Does anyone know if adding would be worn under greaves? I would think not if you needed a close fit :p

[@KnyghtErrant]

+Floyd Keim III As the greaves became more fitted and more enclosing, the padding would eventually go away. So earlier schynbalds (front-greaves only) that were worn over mail hose might have some padding underneath, but this is much less likely for later closely-fitted cased greaves. I wear no padding under mine, there would be no room.

[@dimitrizaitsew1988]

If the armor is next to useless unless closely fitted to your body, then why did soldiers bother looting the dead after the battle? The armor would be useless to them anyway. What kind of armor can be worn by any man?

[@KnyghtErrant]

Greaves specifically need to be very closely fitted to function well. Other forms of armor can still be worn if not closely fitted, but the worse they fit the more uncomfortable and more cumbersome they will be to wear. If your head is roughly the same size, you can easily wear someone else's helmet. Breastplates can still work if they hang off your shoulders. They'll still turn a blade away, but they'll be a lot more uncomfortable and fatiguing than a breastplate that's the proper length and closely fitted at the waist. Gauntlets can be worn be others if your hands are similar etc... greaves on the other hand can hobble their wearer if they don't fit. Leg harness in general should fit well or it will hinder your movements greatly. It's one of the reasons you often don't see leg armor on lower status infantry. It's hard to make 'off-the-peg' leg armor that will fit people well enough.

[@tatayoyo337]

There is plate half armour that is worn without greaves. what in the context permit to not protect the lower legs ?

[@rchave]

+clubinglex I think only modern re-enactments (my own harness is lacking greaves so far)- the reason being for the cost and difficulty of having full greaves made these days. As far as I am aware, 14th or 15th century art work shows either just knees, or complete legs, but never just thighs and knees. Part of the reason, supposedly, is that well fitted greaves support some of the weight of the upper legs rather than the weight all hanging off the waist of the doublet.

[@tatayoyo337]

+rchave en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munition_armour#/media/File:Savoyard_armour_IMG_3805.jpg like this ?

[@rchave]

I did say 14th and 15th centuries, that's later. Don't know a lot about 16th century warfare and why it was different then.

[@CarnelianUK]

+rchave IIRC one of Matt Easton's videos with Toby from the Wallace collection mentions the wearing of only partial leg covering during the 100 years war

[@gpgpgpgp1000]

+clubinglex In the St. Louis Art Museum, which has a good arms and armor section, they have a suit of "three-quarters" plate harness. Basically it is missing just the armor from the knees on down. They explanation they gave was that as firearms became more common in the Renaissance it became necessary to thicken the armor on the upper body, particularly the chest. To deal with the added weight, many knights /men at arms opted to discard the weight of lower leg armor. So, that's the answer from one source. Not saying it is the definitive answer, but it makes sense to me anyway.

[@updemirons8853]

Where did you buy all your armor

[@charlesdeleo4608]

Well actually, plate greaves have been in use as far back as Ancient Greece.

[@charliejackson5096]

Are you a jouster?