Grove Park to Bromley North: A Branch Line With An Uncertain Future

[@dodgydruid]

Did you know David Bowie grew up alongside Sundridge Park station? He was a god to us local Sundridge Park boys, I even went to the same schools. The tales I could tell of that part o' south London and the naughty no no's I and me mates got up to back in the day hehe

[@somenorthlondoner]

Didn’t know that David Bowie lived in Sundridge! I knew he was born in Brixton but sort of assumed he stayed there for much of his childhood!

[@avigdonable]

Also in Beckenham and started his career playing in the local pubs and clubs. Today’s Zizzi @ High Street is one of them.

[@AlteranAnciote]

I always love it when the Bromley North "popper" (as it is known by the drivers) shows up on my KZbin feed. It was one of my local lines until recently. It's just useful enough for them to continue running as-is, and while there is some desire to modernise the line, all current options are considered too complex or prohibitively expensive to proceed with. - The DLR option would require a re-build of Lewisham and sacrificing half of the South Eastern Mainline. - Extension of the Overground is more realistic, but the flat junction at Grove Park crosses the "fast" lines, which is designated as such due to the position of the stations at New Cross, St Johns and Lewisham. So this option would require slowing down or diverting the fast services, or building a flyover or dive-under to grade-separate the Bromley branch from the fast lines. - The Tramlink would be (subjectively) a good option - after Beckenham, it could follow Beckenham Hill or Albermarle Road and head towards Bromley Town Centre, but constructing this extension would be disruptive, and the sharp incline after Shortlands might be too steep for a tram to traverse. For now, with a frequent enough timetable, the Bromley North line remains a good option to connect Bromley to London, as well as providing a convenient set of spare platforms to terminate trains away from London if anything goes wrong beyond Grove Park (or if a train becomes defective). But until there is enough political willpower, we'll be stuck with the "popper" shuttle for the foreseeable.

[@fussyboy2000]

Pop there and back whilst the kettle boils!

[@Super_Trainspotter]

If the Bakerloo line were to be extended to Hayes it would free up 6 paths per hour between Tanners Hill Junction and Charing Cross, which could allow the Bromley North shuttle to be extended into London again

[@somenorthlondoner]

Would it not be more useful for longer distance Southeastern services though? Hayes is also 4TPH IIRC so it would only be 4 paths freed up, still valuable in the grand scheme of things though. Not too clued up on whether any line reopening are proposed in the SE network vicinity but that’ll probably improve their business case knowing that the services could reach London on available paths

[@Super_Trainspotter]

@@somenorthlondoner Hayes is 4tph off-peak, but there is an additional train leaving at 0738 from Hayes which another 2 paths per hour are reserved for. I think any improvements to mainline trains would be making off-peak services more frequent/longer for lesiure travellers instead of adding more peak capacity

[@jos4669]

465/9s are no longer allocated on longer distance services since the removal of first class. They just share diagrams with the rest of the 465 fleet, so they can regularly appear on any service operated by a 465. Also, 466s dont operate on this branch anymore due to PRM requirements. They are now only permitted to operate in multiple with class 465s.

[@chrisadye1590]

The issue is that there are too many passengers to abandon the line, but not enough to improve it. This is not helped by the fact that it joins the mainline on the west side, used by fast trains. One solution would be to build a flyover between Hither Green and Grove Park to swap the fast lines to the east side, at Chislehurst junction trains from Cannon Street to the Medway towns could diverge, and then another flyover could swap the slow lines back to the west side for access to the terminating platforms at Orpington. Service could be a mix of London to Orpington and London to Bromley North stoppers, plus semi fasts running fast from London to Grove Park and then all stations to Sevenoaks - these would follow the Bromley North trains into Grove Park to pick up passengers from the intermediate stations. Tube extensions are too expensive for the number of passengers, and tram extension would be subject to traffic delays and may struggle with the steep hill into Bromley from Beckenham as well as not serving Bromley High Street properly

[@somenorthlondoner]

I'm not so sure on whether lack of passengers is a reason to not improve it. If there were a lack of potential passengers then you might have a point but I think there is potential to entice more people towards using the railway. Depending on how the Tram extension is done I think it could serve the high street but as you say the main concern is the tight bends between Beckenham and Bromley if it were to be street running. If you could maybe fit in an extra track or two alongside the Chatham Mainline with the tram leaving at Simpson's Road you would then be able to serve the town centre. Issue with that is a LOT of lineside properties would have to be purchased so there'd need to be a damn good business case for all that $$$ to be spent

[@chrisadye1590]

@@somenorthlondoner the problem is that if you are someone who has to wait for 10 minutes at Clapham North to actually get onto a northern line tube, and you then spend the rest of your journey standing with your nose in someone else's sweaty armpit you would have every reason to question why money is being spent on a line where even in the rush hour there ten times as many seats as there are passengers. It's a matter of priorities. That said I'm in favour of converting it to a guided busway - which is not a solution I propose very often. There is space at both ends to join the route onto the road network. At Grove Park a footbridge would be provided at the SE end of the platforms to a bus stop alongside the railway, and Pullman Mews widened onto the site of the branch line and platform to enable buses to rejoin the road at the traffic lights at the end of Downham Way. Footpaths would link Wydeville Manor Rd and Oakbrook Close to this stop, with extra stops at New Street Hill, Milk Street, and the footbridge at the north end of Minster Road to increase the catchment of the line. The 126 would be diverted from the parallel roads onto the busway, and both the 227 and the SL5 could be extended from Bromley North to Grove Park (obviously these are all single deck buses - the double deck 261 would continue to serve the existing route). This would eliminate the long traffic related delays on the approach to Grove Park from the south, and into Bromley in the morning, while also allowing through journeys to the busy southern end of Bromley High Street without having to walk or change modes. There would be a huge increase in frequency, although a small loss in speed due to the extra stops.

[@somenorthlondoner]

@@chrisadye1590 The solution for Clapham North is Crossrail 2 and splitting the Northern Line

[@jmaybankjackson]

Nice video. To answer the question on passenger numbers, during the peaks, the service can get rather busy. Before 466s were taken away from the branch, all the services from Bromley to Grove Park between 0700-0830 used to be full and standing at Sundridge Park and the same around 1630-1900. Lots of commuters use it and on a Saturday, it is fairly busy with shoppers, but at night, the line is dead

[@somenorthlondoner]

Glad you enjoyed the video! Interesting that it is filled with shoppers, I’d have thought if people had heavy bags they’d probably get on closer to Bromley South and catch a bus home, although there are probably people coming from further afield :)

[@176MarkW]

My complete fantasy suggestion would be an extension of the New Cross Overgrounds to St Johns, and then tunnel to a standalone sub surface station at Lewisham High Street (so that it doesn't get the pressure of all the connecting passengers at Lewisham mainline station but rather serves the local population from a new station that is slightly better positioned for central Lewisham than the current one). The line would then continue underground towards Hither Green, then connecting to the current branch at Grove Park. But clearly this would be a civil engineering nightmare, the extortionate cost of which would be very difficult to justify.

[@somenorthlondoner]

Maybe a Lewisham High Street stop could have been looked at in the early 10s when plans for the regeneration of Lewisham were swirling around, fat chance of it happening nowadays though

[@stevieinselby]

It's a mistake to look at passenger numbers on the current service and use that as a rationale against an improved service. 20 years ago, no-one would have looked at usage of the 15-minute frequency to stations like Forest Hill and Sydenham and thought "Yes, what we need is three times as many trains", but now that the Overground has been extended down that way the number of passengers has grown massively with the extra destinations. Likewise Bromley North is hugely under its potential because it's a shuttle and everyone has to change at Grove Park ... direct trains through to Lewisham and beyond - whether central London or Docklands (via DLR or ELL) - would generate vastly more traffic, and would also mean more people choosing to use those stations rather than Bromley South or making their own way to Grove Park (if you've got to change there anyway, you might prefer to get a bus from nearer your house than walking to BN or SP, but if the trains ran through then you'd use them).

[@liliijeh_tarila8349]

when i used to go to school in grove park the line was well used by students that were going to bromley after school (me included) and commuters coming in from central that lived in around the residential area in sundrige park and those wanting to go into bromley (im assuming those that dont work near victoria)

[@somenorthlondoner]

I’ve heard it is well used during the peaks yeah

[@TAMS1952]

Re extension of Bakerloo Line. Back in 1972/73 when I worked for London Transport, London Transport conducted a feasibility study to extend the Bakerloo Line from Elephant & Castle to Bromley South via Bricklayers Arms, Peckham, New Cross, Lewisham, Catford, Bellingham, Downham, Bromley North and Bromley South. This would have alleviated the pressure on train services from Grove Park, as it was a very heavily used station, with peak hour trains to and from London Bridge & Charing Cross often overcrowded. It would’ve also relieved the pressure on bus routes 1, 36b, 47, 94 & the 141 routes at the time, with a further reduction of traffic on the A21. I can only assume that this did not go ahead due to the astronomical cost. I know British Rail at the time would’ve backed it, as it meant they could close the Grove Park - Bromley North branch down. A golden opportunity was lost for that part of SE London to vastly improve the transport links.

[@CoolTransport]

Great video!

[@somenorthlondoner]

Thank you so much!

[@jackmartinleith]

Looking at OpenStreetMap, the two Bromley stations are equidistant from the town centre.

[@ajworrell]

The reason Class 466 units no longer operate as single units on the Bromley North, Medway Valley and Sheerness branch lines is due to People of Restricted Mobility legislation The 4 car 465 units had their centre trailers partially rebuilt to incorporate a dedicated wheelchair space and enlarged lavatory, whereas the 2 car 466 units retain their cupboard style lavatory and have no space for wheelchair users.

[@somenorthlondoner]

I wasn’t aware of that, thanks for informing me!

[@juliansadler6263]

The main issue with extending Tramlink to Bromley is the steep and twisty hill up from Shortlands. Remember trams run downhill only along Church Street in Croydon.

[@dodgydruid]

Only if you chose to come up via Swan Hill which is a way too steep hill for trams. Thing is, its either a steep hill one side of Bromley South or a deep valley to a hill other side of Bromley South, however all up the main high road from Bromley South is a decent sized central reservation which could be a tram line and the gradient is doable. You could use the long lifted loading platform and then rise up onto the high street there if it weren't for the old bill station now in the way.

[@TheLondonTransportDroid]

Great video, I have subscribed 😊

[@somenorthlondoner]

Thank you so much!

[@john7857]

I remember catching a train at Grove park in the Sixties that came in from Bromley north and went to London Bridges and on, but I thought when the railwys changed hands there was talk of closing the whole line down, until the residents of Bromley managd to convince the network to at least leave the line through Bromley Nth to Grove Park.?

[@ricktownend9144]

Excellent summary of the line and future options. Re the frequency, it looks as if the new December timetable has reduced it back to half-hourly, with good connections at Grove Pk for the half-hourly Charing X trains - I guess this is OK for Swiss-style taktfahrplan! But south London's main-line rail services are based on a complicated mix of half-hourly services, contrasting dismally with the frequency of the Underground - which has been operating highly successfully for over a century on a model of high frequency, consistent simple all-stations services, easy interchanges with excellent way-finding, and a clear system map. Once you enter an Underground station you can get to hundreds of destinations without needing a timetable; how can main-line rail managers have not noticed this? Probably the way to get more people to use the Bromley N branch would be more trains on the main suburban lines through Grove Pk, and to match that with same frequency trains on the branch - for a good network, you must drop the 'each service has its own frequency' mantra. And maybe the best chance of this would be to hand over the south London services en bloc to the Overground - as I gather was planned, but blocked politically. Ideally - looking at the brilliant success of Thameslink and the 'Liz' line - connect up more of the the terminating lines; surely there is a less expensive model? - maybe link Waterloo Wimbledon services to the Liverpool St W-A lines (now OG) by redigging the Waterloo & City tunnels, with a stop at Blackfriars; and run the Cannon St services back out, over the Thameslink and Charing X lines, and link them with the Waterloo Windsor lines ... Bromley N station is rather isolated by traffic from the shopping area - maybe a better quality walkway would help; also perhaps a positive attitude to bus connections: on G-Maps, options for a journey Grove Pk to Bromley South are buses all the way, or the train to Bromley N plus a 17 minute walk! If only those train managers would pick up the phone and call a bus manager or two ... There may also be improvements to be made at Grove Park - better, bigger signage, PI screens listing all trains (and maybe buses) on both the branch and main line platforms etc.. Re Sundays, might the line be used for heritage 3rd-rail electric trains? Looking forward very much to your next video

[@Super_Trainspotter]

The December timetable change hasn't affected anything, the branch has been 2tph off-peak and 3tph peak since COVID

[@somenorthlondoner]

@@Super_Trainspotter Unfortunately when I got some of the evening shots I had just missed the branch so had to get the 126 and 314 instead :(

[@ricktownend9144]

@@Super_Trainspotter Many thanks!

[@DadgeCity]

It should be converted to trams, a new stop added at Burnt Ash, and extended along East St and High St to Bromley South (stopping at Market Sq and Elmfield Rd), with a view to connecting up with the tram network at Beckenham Jct at a later date.

[@somenorthlondoner]

I would argue it would be better to connect it all up at once and perhaps a Bromley South section as well, although not too sure on whether it would be possible to take on the 367 route from Shortlands to Bromley!

[@transportandtheatrekid2298]

I would make this line a part of London Overground

[@dodgydruid]

A station at New Street Hill O.o Now that is a thought although folks from there would normally cut through Chinbrook Park and come up to Grove Park other side.

[@LordEverythingtrains]

As a resident of the links estate i can confirm this

[@nathanw9770]

There was also a suggestion to run a fast service directly from Grove Park to London Bridge and onto Charing Cross but it's unpopular due to the question of the demand for the route, especially with the new SL4 Superloop bus being introduced next year.

[@somenorthlondoner]

I can’t imagine many people travelling to Canary Wharf from Grove Park to commute so in a sense the branch probably wouldn’t lose much in the way of demand but it’s commonly suggested the SL4 should terminate in Bromley with the SL3 and 5, I wonder how a limited stop Grove Park to Bromley service would impact the branch

[@nathanw9770]

@@somenorthlondoner True but will be interesting to see how many people use it especially once the timetable for the route comes out. I agree it should be extended to Bromley as well for the same reasons and also to support routes 126 and 261 during the peak. I'm also skeptical about the routing as well since surely it will have to use single deckers to go through the Blackwall tunnel and onto Canary Wharf. They should've made the route start at North Greenwich or Greenwich imo.

[@somenorthlondoner]

@@nathanw9770 SL4 is going through Silvertown no?

[@nathanw9770]

@@somenorthlondoner My bad I forgot about that, I just assumed it was going through Blackwall lol. Just checked the wiki and it will use double deckers luckily.

[@dodgydruid]

Lol my dad's old panel on the front of that book, he operated the "widowmaker" as it was called covering the LB platforms 1-6 and during rush hour was possibly the most horrendous panel on BR with trains back to back and all it took was one idiot and the whole house of cards would fall and then chaos to follow.

[@somenorthlondoner]

How interesting!

[@john7857]

I use to catch the train at Grove Park from Bromley n right up to London

[@somenorthlondoner]

And how was it?

[@SingleTheShot]

kinda crazy the driver let you into the cab, props to him tho

[@somenorthlondoner]

He was a very kind driver and kudos to him for allowing that!

[@Smart1529]

I have an idea to save this branch. Just like Romford to Upminster with Emerson Park in the middle, how about converting it into a London Overground service. I also have these ideas as well, it sounds ludicrous I know and where the money is going to come from but hear me out on this one. The Bakerloo line should first serve Beckenham Junction, then Bromley North and finally Bromley South where the trains terminate and connects with other rail services, hoping the extension beyond Lewisham is given permission. That way we can still save Bromley North and other vital links. No matter where you are in the town centre you are on the Bakerloo line. My next suggest is this one, its a bit more wilder and I am jumping ahead here and we probably never see this solution but here it is. TFL and Department for Transport really should look into Crossrail 3. Crossrail 3 should improve links from North West London to South East London. Supporting the Bakerloo, Jubilee, Northern and Met lines The North West section should have two branches serving Watford Junction, Harrow, Wembley Park, West Hampstead, Finchley Central, Mill Hill East and Edgware. The Northern line shuttle from Finchley Central to Mill Hill East should be replaced by the service and the new tracks should link Mill Hill East to Edgware due to its history. West Hampstead could be a major interchange point with Thameslink, Overground and Jubilee line. Quicker journey times for Wembley and Harrow. The South section should definitely involve serving Elephant and Castle, Camberwell, Peckham Rye, Lewisham and Hither Green. It then splits to serve Lee, Mottingham, New Eltham, Sidcup, Bexley and Craford and the other branch to Grove Park, Chislehurst, Petts Wood, Orpington and Sevenoaks replacing the two Southeastern rail services. That way the Grove Park to Bromley will have a useful interchange with Sunridge Park and serves Bakerloo line and Crossrail 3. It will serve both Camberwell and Peckham Rye due to Bakerloo line extension opportunity loss in consultation. This is just my idea/suggestion, like I said before where is the money going to come from and also Bakerloo line extension and Crossrail 2 hasnt started yet due to pandemic and lack of finances. Please dont roast me, I am aware of the issues and I am just offering a solution. This was all inspired by the Elizabeth line changing commuters lives from East to West. I really do hope the Bakerloo line extension and Crossrail 2 happens as soon as possible. Im open to other people's thoughs and lets be nice to each other. 🙂

[@somenorthlondoner]

I’m not too sure on what this line given over to the London Overground would do for it, it’s not really got a great deal of demand as is and would find itself more useful if lumped onto another existing mode of transport like the trams or Bakerloo Line. Interesting suggestions you’ve made though! :D

[@Smart1529]

@@somenorthlondoner yeah like I said sounds a bit ludicrous. But an interchange for other train services at Bromley North and Grove Park could be an option to save it. Kinda like Romford for Elizabeth line and National rail service and Upminster for District line and national rail service.

[@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire]

The DLR could be put underground between Lewisham and Grove Park. Also, the BCR for extending the DLR to Bromley North would be 3:1.

[@somenorthlondoner]

Wouldn’t that be a little expensive though when you consider Southeastern does the same thing currently?

[@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire]

@@somenorthlondoner DLR would fill a diffrent market to Southeastern as it could run to Stratford and therfore providing a quicker link to Anglia, Essex, Canary Whaft and North East London than is currently possible. It has a far better BCR than the trams with the trams only being 0.9:1 which would mean you would loss more money than you would gain from extending tramlink.

[@henreereeman8529]

I'm not gonna lie, some of the reasons not to extend to Overground are grasping at straws and probably just trying to cope with the lack of will to invest in railways at the moment. How are you gonna say that a 5-car train every 15 minutes won't be necessary, but also say that the East London Line is overcrowded??

[@somenorthlondoner]

I think you misinterpreted what I said because I said that 5 car train won’t be necessary down the branch every 15 but new demand from Lewisham would likely overcrowd the existing LO New Cross terminators and given it’s a struggle to get on at Surrey Quays due to Clapham, CP and Croydon services being rammed I think would present a bit of an issue

[@officialmcdeath]

The Sundridge passengers are getting on there precisely because there's more space than on the parallel buses \m/

[@somenorthlondoner]

Yes the 126 I was on was quite busy

[@officialmcdeath]

@@somenorthlondoner zonal travel is what gives us these short opportunistic infill journies \m/

[@petersmith4455]

i remember when EPB units used to run this line in the 80s great back then

[@laurenceskinnerton73]

Interesting.

[@somenorthlondoner]

Thanks very much! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@PaulYoudell]

i like the Bromley North to Grove Park branch line.

[@somenorthlondoner]

It’s an awesome line, the enthusiast in me adores the MetCam and jointed track combo whenever a /9 is chucked out 😄

[@ashleyjiscool]

Tbh, I think if the tube comes up to Bromley then Bromley North to Grove Park could be made a heritage Railway, the tube could make a new line underground to Grove Park as a provision for later. Sadly given Bromley’s Hatred for the Tube I doubt this will happen.

[@somenorthlondoner]

The Bakerloo Line wouldn’t be the worst idea but I question how many journeys would be done using it to and from Grove Park. I think the branch would be better suited to the trams, it would establish a Croydon to Bromley link.

[@ashleyjiscool]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@somenorthlondonerI think more would use it as there would be a extra station, but the tram is also good idea.

[@liliijeh_tarila8349]

also i must add, the true numbers are far higher because of how many people do not tap to use the line

[@somenorthlondoner]

Sure

[@pj100565]

What’s with the reference to Plaistow at 1.47? Don’t you mean Sundridge Park?

[@somenorthlondoner]

The station was initially called Plaistow

[@pj100565]

@@somenorthlondoner well I’ve learned something new then! I always thought Plaistow was in the East End!

[@somenorthlondoner]

@@pj100565 there is a plaistow green in sundridge park, no clue why it wasn’t called that! There is a Plaistow in East London though

[@bruceperkins4601]

There are the 2 Plaistows, but I fancy the Bromley one is pronounced 'PLAYstow'. No Cockneys in Bromley!@@somenorthlondoner

[@somenorthlondoner]

@@bruceperkins4601 My apologies 😂

[@skellertons113]

Known by Bus Drivers as, "The North".

[@SirKenchalot]

Would Network Rail want tram power lines over their rails or would they insist on 25Kv AC and thus require new rolling stock that could work on multi-voltages be purchased for tram-train operation, as in the Sheffield Super-tram? Unpowered sections of tram where wires can't be run happens already in Birmingham on the Midland Metro so low bridges aren't necessarily prohibitive. Generally though, sadly, the silver age of rail in London is a bit of a memory now and TfL are so broke they're not going to fund this; you'll only see this being funded by private interests such as home/office developers, see Battersea Power Station, Canary Wharf etc. Also, what's this about few branch lines in London? Yeah, only 3 to Heathrow, 2 to Windows and Eaton, 1 to Greenford, 1 between Romford and Upminster, the Northern line to Mill Hill, in fact most of London Overground, 3 branches on the Met and so on.

[@somenorthlondoner]

I think my definition of branches at the time (baring in mind this video is approaching 2 months old) was a little vague but I should’ve called them “self contained”. As there you only have Romford to Upminster, Greenford branch and this line. Windsor isn’t in London

[@SirKenchalot]

@@somenorthlondoner One can learn a lot in 2 months. So I think you perhaps meant shuttle services but please don't do the KZbin thing of making an entire video about a term and then concluding thet there are so many exceptions we can't use the term except that we all use it so we'll just carry on, as seems to happen so often. Unless, I suppose you're running out of other ideas.

[@somenorthlondoner]

@@SirKenchalot I never intended for it to come across as what you speak of but sure, I’ll bear that in mind!

[@danielspencer6174]

Bakerloo line go there go to Hayes in South East London it take Hart of centrel London?

[@somenorthlondoner]

Doesn't go there right now but it is proposed to take over existing Southeastern services after its extension to Lewisham

[@eastlancsesteem]

I hope it gets bought by TFL.

[@somenorthlondoner]

More likely than them taking over the Greenford branch TBH