Growing in contaminated soils - discussion and science

Today we have a discussion on contaminated soils and is it safe to grow in them? What things can we think about and how can we design our land when we take into account the possibility that an area may not be ideal for growing food?
I have been reading about this topic for years, and it's impossible to link all the articles and studies that I've read on the topic. There are many influential researchers in this area, but among my favorites I've found are Dr John Todd (www.toddecological.com/about), Dr. Paul Stamets (www.fungi.com), and Dr Ganga Hettiarachchi.
The KC study mentioned in the video is behind a paywall, but this site here is an article about the study that is a good read: www.k-state.edu/media/newsrel.... She has a bunch of interesting research you can find here: www.researchgate.net/profile/...
The tables in the video are from SUPER HELPFUL paper from the Environmental Protection Agency:
clu-in.org/download/remed/epa...
There is also an EPA fact sheet that is a little easier to digest, but has less discrete information:
www.epa.gov/sites/default/fil...
Soil pH chart is from Emporium Hydroponics.
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[@debbiehenri345]

I despise Round-Up. When that poison first came out, I was working as a gardener and my boss was using it everywhere he could. He died in his 50's. My friend used it to control Giant Hemlock and she sent me some photos of the dead plants - plus the spidery brown stains weaving across her lawn, where the poison had infiltrated the Hemlock roots, and then killed the grass above them. A couple of years ago, the local laird had his gamekeeper spray a hunter's path (it was the first time he'd ever done this). It killed the grass and weeds outright, as you would expect. That year's mushroom crop didn't grow at all. The next year, Bluebells in the spray zone grew up with striped leaves and very pale lilac and black striped flowers (pretty, but eerie). Fortunately, the following Autumn saw a bumper crop of Boletes. I won't use Round-Up in my garden. Many would use it, if they had a garden like mine - because there are masses of brambles (no exaggeration to say - thousands of brambles) that reappear with the same level of determination every year, and each winter I go through the gruelling task of digging them up again (takes 5 months). However, despite the irritation of the planet's most persistent brambles - I can't bring myself to resort to using Round-Up. In my mind, it's simply out of the question when I consider this is a place for growing food and feeding wildlife. lad you mentioned Paul Stamets. I think everyone should make an effort to own a copy of Mycelium Running. One of the best books I've read.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I agree with everything here!

[@annburge291]

You'll despise it even more if you listen to Stephany Seneff about how it interferes with the cholesterol transpired system

[@TheEmbrio]

Maybe goats can help with your brambles. Some sheep might too. Either your own herd or you op3n up for someone else’s flock to come

[@amberbates2149]

I have only watched the first minute of this and would have to say the KZbin information being like a drunk guy at a bars advice is the best analogy I have heard in ages! ❤

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

😆

[@janice8695]

I want to make sure I understand the part about composting the comfrey/mushroom etc that is grown in the contaminated soil. Is that compost ok to put in the garden/food forest?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yes it should be, especially if you then use it to grow trees and bushes. I would avoid root crops. It also depends on what the contaminant is. When in doubt, get a soil test to find out what you have in your soils, because some toxins may be worth being extra careful over. For example, what is happening in Ohio right now.

[@StayPrimal]

Thanks for the video dude! I liked that. When I bought my property, it was an abandoned house and the backyard was filled with garbage. The other owners were very... VERY dirty and unresponsible. They enjoyed working on mechanic too... So there was mechanic parts and oil and gas spilled everywhere in the backyard. I was able to spot a few places where I was literally digging oil soaked in the ground. I'm sure they were just dropping their old oil on the ground when changing it in their cars. Some trees that used to be there when the other owners were here, are still to this day very unhealthy without apparent reason. But I still bought the house, repaired it, and did a MASSIVE clean up in the backyard. I have let the backyard grow wild for 5 years, and the vegetation has uncompacted the ground very well, now its very lose. I started a pretty large compost station and built a no-dig organic garden and everything was fine. I'm very happy of how I regenerated this property so far. I heard something one day and it really hit me hard, it was saying : “My philosophy in life about what to do in the world isn’t to go to a pristine area and live there and enjoy my life; it’s to find a place that’s degraded or destroyed and fix it up”. That's exactly what I did and i'm so glad I did, now my property is truly a little paradise and there is very very little traces left of the other owners. This year i'm 100% focusing on my food forest around my garden, extremely exciting.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

That saying was from a Happen Films video and it was Robert Guyton who said it. Did you know he also has a youtube channel? I can't remember what his was called, but if you search youtube for Robert Guyton you will find a bunch of videos on him. I love that man's energy and Vibe. I want to be him when I'm older, and to do that I needed to start now!

[@StayPrimal]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Thank you very much for the info about him. He's indeed a HUGE inspiration for me as well, and I really want to be like him later. I will.

[@debbiehenri345]

That's the way to do it. My garden was a totally exhausted piece of ex-pasture. Bare rock was showing through a third of the area, the rest was but a thin turf overlying rock. The previous owners had dumped tools everywhere. Before the house was built, there used to be a smithy, and all the old clinker, ash, etc from the forge had been thrown out to create a huge mound over more than 2 centuries. So, I didn't have a lot of soil to begin with, most of what I did have was full of carbon. I had the added disadvantage of most of my garden being on a steep slope, so couldn't just buy in soil since a heavy rain would just wash it away. It's been a gradual process of introducing plants that will put up with the most tortuous conditions, first planting a hedge (and replanting it 5 times as rabbit plagues, rogue sheep and rogue cows made their way into the garden and destroyed nearly everything). From there, as soil levels build through chopping and dropping, emptying containers at the end of the growing season, incorporating fungi into the garden, and making compost from every kitchen scrap, tissues and cardboard, collecting leaves, collecting fern leaves (I grow masses of ferns in dark corners where nothing else will thrive, makes the most wonderful light soil) - I finally began to plant out those fruit trees and bushes which had been growing in containers all these years. It's taken me the better part of 20 years just to 'get started' on my permaculture garden - but even though most plants are still quite small, this piece of ground looks a heck of a lot better than the sheet of rock that we bought all those years ago. You definitely get a kick out of making a really positive improvement.

[@boppingbetweenworlds8309]

" . . . it’s to find a place that’s degraded or destroyed and fix it up." I've felt that my entire life and I am just now getting the chance to make it happen.

[@millennialhmong7121]

Wonderful

[@JoelKSullivan]

Q&A's like this are a great format for you to do during the winter when you can't be outside as often.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks 😊

[@SgtScourge]

Here's some notes I'll be editing as I watch: I believe what I learned from Dr. Elaine Ingham's course was that measured ph doesn't matter at all because a plant will modify the pH of the soil on a minute/mm tiny basis along each section of a root in order to take up the nutrients it's looking for. So modifying pH to block a certain bad thing doesn't seem like it would be effective. Rice takes up a lot of arsenic. I haven't learned extensively about this, but I have learned that some mushrooms not only bioaccumulate, but take up and break apart toxins. Problem is I haven't found which mushrooms and which toxins

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

This is a great point, and I wish I went into it deeper, and not just reference that old pH chart in an offhand way. That chart is a decent thing to reference quickly, but is not the Bible. It wss formulated with a very low plant density, for example tilled agriculture with 1 plant every 6 inches. In that setup, soil pH matters a lot because the density of plants and thus plant roots is really low. Once you start looking at a dense polyculture like a perennial grassland, the plants have much greater control of soil pH jsit due to density of roots and "solar panels" and thus density of root exudates to modify the soil condition! This is the hardest part about making videos... a 10 second mention of an item can lead to its own 15 minute video discussion!

[@Perennial_Curiosity]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Maybe that can be your next video topic :)

[@Crina-LudmilaCristeaAuthor]

Great video! This autumn and winter I've inoculated woodchips with wine cap mycelium after hearing many people, including and especially Paul Stamets, that they are good for contaminated soil. While we don't have toxic soil here, as far as I know, I think it will greatly benefit the soil biology. Thank you for sharing this!

[@treehugfarm-jj3ue]

Keith, thank you for suggesting this video to view. This great information and so timely for our needs. Thanks to you, I now have a great plan! Thank you for all you do to help us grow our food forests.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Wonderful!

[@novampires223]

I remember an article about sheep being used to graze on a ammunition dump from wwII, they could eat the TNT laden plants and completely break it down. So amazed by that.. I love sheep!

[@merrireilly4614]

Thanks for the advice Dad! 😂. Such a great topic and thanks especially for the wisdom and admonition. We can always learn to do better.

[@jdvanallen2907]

Great information. I have a friend who is moving to Nova Scotia and wants to garden but they have high arsenic levels so I was pondering solutions. It’s a good time to be catching up on your videos!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Some of the papers I linked in the description talk about arsenic specifically

[@amberbates2149]

OK! I have watched the remainder of the video and am so glad you mentioned mushrooms. Understanding how mycelium networks can benefit a garden bed or a food forest (well, almost anything to do with growing) is such a powerful tool for anyone interested in permaculture & self sufficiency!! I literally put substrate in all our beds and will be doing the same with our food forest! Thank you 🌱🍄❤

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Mushrooms are the MVP of a garden and food forest especially!

[@AbdalMasih]

I love the way you qualify your knowledge and its sources and limitations in your videos. This video was interesting to me, because--even though I wouldn't categorize my soil as "toxic--my soil has some problems. I recently removed about 12 tons of gravel and found all sorts of random building materials scattered through my compacted yard. Since I live in an environment approaching high dessert, I decided to spend next year heavily sowing seed of native dryland "weed" trees, bushes, and grasses. Part of this will be done to kickstart the soil microbiology and part to accumulate some biomass. But the main reason will be to let nature show me the problem areas (if any) exist throughout my yard. Your video was tangentially helpful to hear.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

This is exactly the right path. Good job!

[@chefe2152]

This information and this channel is soo incredible.We need more this kind of content instead of bro science gardening tips.We can see how actual science be distant from word of mouth tips. I live in Montreal and just bought place in the city,the backyard is big and I plan to plant dome fruit trees and vegetables. I will be doing lab sou test soon,but in the meantime I'm planting some beans along the fence.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Unfortunately "bury a fish head under a tree", and "THIS ONE TIP WILL GROW MONSTER TOMATOES!!" and it's about using egg shells... that kind of garbage is what people want to see. The actual real science is really not that popular unfortunately. I'm glad there are people out there that appreciate it though! ❤️

[@babybalrog]

Excellent suggestions, matches with what I've heard elsewhere. One thing I'll add, is that these work for toxic compounds, that can be broken apart, I'd be a little more worried about things like heavy metal poisoning and contamination. I've seen Lavender used to reclaim coal mines high in metal, pressed for oil, and the biomass composted back into the fields. The metals don't make it into the oil. But defiantly don't eat. Lavender is apparently known to take things out of soil

[@LucieMartins-ht9jf]

As always, thank you for all you do. This is great information you are passing on and I appreciate that you include the sources of that information.

[@djmoulton1558]

Very interesting and great suggestions for consideration.

[@KatarinaClaire]

Love the chosen topic since it's not only very important but highly relevant to many of the areas where people are now making homes. My own example is that I have a house that was built in the 60s. At the time, it was a country road but the city has since built-up around it. While I have not had a soil test done yet, it would not be surprising given the age of the house to find soil contaminates, particularly at the front near the road/driveway. I've been contemplating various scenarios that address this and am leaning towards making the front yard a place for wildlife with the inclusion of flowers, bushes and fruit-producing trees like serviceberry. This makes the area useful to wildlife while also beautifying an otherwise largely monoculture lawn. One other topic that would be interesting to hear you discuss is air pollution and plants that are beneficial in helping to clean the air, particularly for those of us living in urban centers. Your videos are always great, Keith, and I appreciate you encouraging us to do our own research. A critical step for anything but especially one's health.

[@Tsuchimursu]

I would just use the area for pollarding firewood, growing plants for seed saving or any other non food products. Or just doing non gardening activities like building a shed there.

[@boppingbetweenworlds8309]

This is the most brilliant, inspiring video ever. And the mushroom idea is so interesting. I've heard that when yeast and other fungi-type irritations show up in the human body, it's a sign of toxin or heavy metal breakdown. Like, that is one of the main goals of fungi, so it makes perfect sense that it's relative species would do the same in soil.

[@TheEmbrio]

You mentionning tritium is spot on and abit scary, as i’m in a ountry with 70% nuclear electricity....

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I as well. I also work in that industry. Trust me that tritium management, engineered barriers to keep it put of the environment is one of the reasons nuclear is so expensive. But it's better that there are so many engineered barriers to prevent any release that you are more likely to have an asteroid land on your head than get exposed to tritium. It's a very serious concern and one that we take with the utmost seriousness. Not only are there engineered barriers to prevent it, pipes, catchment, dykes, drainage collection, monitoring and testing, and redundancy in all the above. We spend a lot of money and human resources to ensure the public oand environment never sees a drop of radiation from tritium.

[@MrAnderskrieger]

I try to learn more about pfas contamination in soil, and how it effect growing food. I also really want to learn more about how much generel effect Charcoal can have due to soil contamination.

[@dwdavis5977]

This is helpful. Thank you!

[@millennialhmong7121]

Good information.

[@lunastar832]

Sunflowers have been known to help out too. Also would it be possible for you to make a video listing bioremediate plants at least as many as you know of or a source of info your aware of on this particular subject as far as listing different plants to utilize for this particular purpose or for filtering stuff like dish water or shower water I try to catalog and research as many plants as possible and list their purposes and uses besides edible status for both humans and animals though I'm very interested in this as well.thanks for your content garden friend 😄

[@Growinginontario]

Excellent video! Love the sciency garden talk

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Glad you enjoyed it! I will try to do more of these. I already have another one in the pipeline, about Roundup/glyphosate, and it's currently sitting at 32 references!

[@GimmeADream]

Thanks! Mostly I'm living on the top of a hill on PEI. I think it might have had minimal farming (animal pastureland) a hundred or more years ago. Until about 30 years ago it was forested, much of it was an old forest. I imagine there is some contamination near a repair garage but my gardens are all above that on the hill. That being said, I am using horse manure and woodchip-based fertilizer which could have some contaminants in it in the form of horse de-wormer and antibiotics from 10 years ago or longer. Other than possible pesticide contaminates from the air or store-bought foods, the property is probably pretty natural. At least I hope so. It does have a mildly acidic, sandy soil base.

[@djpaz75]

I recommend to not use manure of anything that was given ivermectin or a dewormer. Research has shown a cow pat that had worker will not break down and dung beetles will not attend them. Only fly larvae survive. So you exacerbate the problem. No higher life to control the flies, more pest and disease to the herd, more worming and drugs needed to manage. Snake eating the tail. Your best bet is to not use wormers at all. A method to help manage pests is controlled grazing with daily movement, follow identical pen 3 days later with chickens. They will feast on fly larvae and explode the pat and nature will compost in situ immediately.

[@reno_death]

Heck yeah a new video! Thanks for spreading all your knowledge out there. I am starting my first food forest in the spring here in zone 7a. The only thing I am nervous about is my old next door neighbor sprayed round up constantly on his lawn and I am fairly certain there was some runoff onto our land at a place that will soon be a catchment area for some swales. I'm still working out my plan.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

You will like my next video coming Wednesday, on roundup! 😀

[@reno_death]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Looking forward to it, thanks! God bless, brother!

[@leep4655]

THANK YOU 🙏 G.B.Y

[@djpaz75]

I would like to challenge that the pH/nutrient availability chart from the 1950s is only correct to tell you what nutrients will bind to the soil colloid and become available or unavailable. Yes, from an organic chemistry this is true, but the standard agronomy test is flawed completely. Soil pH is managed dynamically in the rhizosphere, and agronomic testing is not able to observe this phenomena. Trying to manage pH and nutrient availability is incorrect now. Support photosythesis (John Kempf/Jill Claperton) and support soil biodiversity (Elaine Ingham/Rattan Lall), and the pH and nutrient availability manages itself. If you want to manage soil toxin, and approach it using standard agronomic test, you are going to make matters far worse. Let nature do the work, see my comment below about Tom Dykstra, using 1 lb/acre sugar just to create a temporary over-reaction by bacteria to "burn off" many toxins quickly

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Fantastic comment, and I couldn't agree more. The more we learn about the complex web of life (Ingram and Kempf are amazing references BTW), the more we realize that humans tinkering trying to play chemist is the wrong approach. The right approach is to mimic nature and let nature sort it out. Just push for diversity and healthy the microbiome and most problems will sort themselves out!

[@annburge291]

Some minor comments to your wonderful video about soil contamination and plants. Before I start, I'd like to comment how love KZbin. I find so much great information that leads me down so many rabbit holes It teaches me the vocabulary so I can begin to research. It gives me new perspectives. It saves me hours of time when I used to have to visit the library for simple questions. I even meet wonderful people like you where I can chat away with. Just because it's peer reviewed doesn't mean it's right. KZbin gives a chance for the alternative thinkers. As you know, I'm in the desert, in an agricultural area, at the bottom of a basin, where we have had two droughts lasting, 13 years and 11 years within a thirty year time frame. As Bill Mollison stated, agricultural areas in desert environments are some of the most contaminated soils outside industrial petrochemical spill sites because there is no water washing of the soil. Everything accumulates. The city of Chihuahua is an industrial city dealing with plastics, airplane components. There is no adequate sewer treatment plant and three quarters of the city drains directly into the river. The natural limestone bedrock is high in arsenic, lead, aluminium, fluoride and other heavy metals. There is naturally occuring very low grade radioactive rocks/water which I can't remember the details. So now about plants uptake of excessive amounts of heavy metals and radioactive substances. As Walter Jeanne states, mycorrhizal fungi is the natural filter system for heavy metals. If mycorrhizal fungi is present, the plants uptake of all metals is in the correct amount. Fungi have a limited pH zone, this is why having a pH close to 7 is important. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jqWTk52vf6yrpbM. If the mycorrhizal fungi is limited because of tilling, application of artificial salt fertilizers, fungicides, and other antibiotic agricultural chemicals, the plants have no natural filter system and will deposit the heavy metals in key parts of the plant, particularly the bark, seeds, and young leaves. It's not a question of distance. Hard woods are hard because they have more accumulated metals.

[@annburge291]

Methods for limiting my exposure to heavy metals are: I actively avoid tilling and application of agrochemicals even if it means full blown arguments with my husband. Plants that don't require mycorrhizal fungi such as kale, broccoli, I grow with a variety of plants that do require it. I try and keep the soil biology alive by keeping chickens, adding mulches, compost, biochar, LAB foliar sprays and watering. There doesn't seem much point in raised beds because all dirt is contaminated. I grow mop up metal hard wood trees such as mezquite, Palo Verde and a relative to oak for firewood. I assume all garden mushrooms are toxic (white angel is rampant). I grow carrots for their leaves rather than the roots. All high oxalate green leaves are boiled and drained. I eat pecans, but in general avoid eating seeds. I assume that the food I eat is contaminated so now and then I detox using a combination of Ramadan dry water fasting, shortly followed with longer water fasting taking binders such as activated charcoal, powered ziolite, open cell chlorella , spirulina, bentonite clay (one with each glass of water). I drink filtered water from the city house, which I carry with me, rather than well water from the outer city property.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Such a great comment as always!

[@liabobia]

Thank you so much! My poor soil is contaminated with arsenic from misused CCA lumber. I've been growing in containers and doing remediation with grow/pull/throw away and it is slow work. Most plants will not bring up arsenic in any significant quantities but in the interest of removal, Brassica rapa has been shown to do so. Just trying to get the soil to better levels before a mulch layer.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Awesome! That Kansas professor does a lot of work researching Arsenic, you should definitely dig deeper with her if you want more info.

[@PaleGhost69]

Also a benefit from composting the affected biomass is spreading the concentration over a large area like the example you used of chlorine but with water treatment.

[@hhwippedcream]

Thanks for the video. Asteraceae - sunflower family has some good bioaccumulators as well.

[@iamtmckendry]

Very cool to know about the arsenic/lead studies, living in an old mining area that stuff is often around. Will def do some more research and get a soil test. Are there any more studies you could mention that study uptake from soil -> food with arsenic/lead? I've also heard that bracken bio accumulates arsenic-- would it be feasible that a field of bracken could clean up shop after a few decades? Also wondering-- does Silver have any mitigating influence on these toxins?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I don't know enough about those questions to answer confidently. I wouldn't want to steer you wrong. I want to be really aware of my knowledge and its limits.

[@kerriegreen9057]

I have to say that I love your content, it's so helpful & informative, also I can't help saying that you look so much like Virgil Tracy from 'The Thunderbirds' English Supermarionation television series!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

OMG I showed to my wife and we had a roar! So funny

[@elodiemercier2502]

My family bought a woodland where I intend to use an acre to gradualy implant a food forest. Thing is, we've found a LOT of trash there. Some spots have been used as a dump. This video will help. I do need to find out where to get it tested

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Most universities will have a program for this. Also if in the states contact your extension office and they may have something for this.

[@elodiemercier2502]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy I'll check it out! Thanks

[@djpaz75]

I highly reccomend that you look into Tom Dykstra's work. John Kempf has several podcast and youtube videos from Tom. He has found that using 1lb/acre of raw sugar creates a frenzy of bacterial activity that remediates heavy agricultural contamination with in 3 months! It's an interesting premise worth investigating.

[@boppingbetweenworlds8309]

I'd buy that. It reminds me of when I make kombucha or lacto ferment vegetation. It's done by adding either salt or sugar to the mix as food for the bacteria.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

That's exactly where I got the idea of using molasses to bloom the bacterial colonies which break down the contaminants! John Kempf is an amazing resource, as are just about every guest he has on. A truly fantastic podcast, my #1 single favorite!

[@mmmmarada]

It would be wonderful if you could do a video on roundup. I inherited a lawn that had roundup sprayed on it every year but last year, so got all my fruit trees last spring and planted them in big pots, waiting as long as possible to plant them in the soil. This spring I plan to plant them with some lupine and flowers for the bees. I will also put some raised beds with things that need a lot of room like winter squash and sweet potatoes. I am wondering if I can ever plant food crops outside of raised beds - like making a bed above the soil. I have very sandy soil, so would have to plant cover crops to get enough nutrients into the soil, but then worry about the cover crops having forever chemicals in them. The one possibly good thing is that maybe the sandy soil won't hold onto the roundup as long maybe?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

So funny, it's already made and will go live Wed. :)

[@mmmmarada]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Oooo, wonderful!!! I'll look for it!

[@cboy5oc]

I have had a question pertaining to living on a busy street and wanting to plant food in the front yard. So particulate from exhaust is a continuing issue. Is there a safe distance from the road? Are there any specific concerns that you have heard about? Or do I just need to apply what you have told us in general about toxins?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I would definitely create a windbreak/hedgerow if possible. This is much worse than contaminated soils, because the contaminants get deposited directly on the food itself, where it can then leach into it via osmosis and diffusion. I would try to plant as solid as a fence of bushes, and grow on your side of them if possible.

[@MsCaterific]

❤

[@timneuman2230]

Off topic question, but if you could only have 1 peach tree which would you recommend? I'm trying to decide between the contender and reliance but not sure how to pick!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I would pick Reliance all day long. It's FANTASTIC. One of the best tasting peaches. It can get peach leaf curl, but so can contender, and it's manageable. The Reliance peach is one of the best tasting peaches I've ever had the privilege to eat. It's life changing, that peach!

[@ninemoonplanet]

I heard of a study using hemp to get PFOS, PFOAS out of soil on an easy coast military base. Have you run across the preliminary studies? I understand hemp plants do have some uses in soil remediation.

[@ninemoonplanet]

Dr. Elaine Ingham, Dr. Stametz, both are good sources with both field studies and expertise in ecology, soils, fungi, and soil biology. You're correct, there are some odd, to say the least, people exclaiming all sorts of "magical" stuff.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I have, hemp is truly and incredible plant. Another great one is called vetiver grass. As for the magical claims, soil microbiology is so complex that even world experts feel they understand less than 1% of what is going on. Often, the more we learn about something, the more we realize we don't know about it. It's the other end of Dunning Krueuger effect. And often, unknown science and "magic" are indistinguishable from eachother!

[@alisonnewall1748]

Do you have a Canadian resource for soil testing? Fantastic info, thank you!

[@Lauradicus]

Yes to “biochar” but in this instance you would apply char that hasn’t soaked up nutrients, hasn’t been inoculated first. The whole point is to absorb the toxins and that should be the sole goal as much as possible. (Putting nutrients in with the toxins only encourages plants to take nutrients from a dirty source.)

[@bonniefinnerty2826]

Cardboard and pfas- I’ve always used the cardboard & wood chip method to start new gardens (I loved the video of you and your wife dumpster diving for cardboard). I’ve now heard of PFAS in cardboard so I’m reluctant to use cardboard anymore. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on this.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

PFAS Is a grease resistant forever chemical. They are likely to show up in things like McDonalds fries containers, paper salad bowls, paper Hamburger containers, etc. They are extremely unlikely to show up in Amazon cardboard for example. There is also no research that I know that shows there is a pathway from cardboard to compost to soil to food, similar to my other video on how to grow in contaminated soils from a few months ago. The concern is mostly cardboard and then directly into the food it's holding. Actually that last sentence could be wrong, I haven't verified it in a fairly long time, and there could be new data showing otherwise. That being said, if that's still a concern, then newspaper should be fine, as long as it isn't glossy print. And for compost, just use leaves, and never add paper plates, or any food container paper.

[@novampires223]

Please talk about plastics in garden soil, I just bought an old homestead where they used black plastic in the paths. It is now in a bunch of little piece’s..😢

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I have a video on it already. Search my channel for "plastic"

[@bookswithatwist-vanvelzerp9262]

I had a barn fire 7 years ago - the firefighters HAD to use the suppressive foam - and I have been searching high and low for how long that remains before degrading - or how plants uptake it - as it is near my asparagus !!!! but can't find anything

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I have no idea, wish I could help.

[@allisonmastropierro3242]

I have a question that I think is related. We had about two acres of forested land cleared to start a food forest. The company piled the trees they cleared and attempted to burn it using diesel fuel. The fire burned itself out and they said they would come back to finish when the weather was drier. Can these logs be safely mulched to use in the food forest now or can I use the logs to delineate the growing areas? How long does it take for diesel to break down? It seems like such a waste to burn them. I didn’t realize that is what they would do.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I would use the wood to build something like a fence, use it to line a pollinator garden, build a timber framed pond with a liner, etc. I wouldn't grow food near it, just to be safe. Another thing you can do is put them out in the sun and cover them with sawdust. Then each day scrape away the sawdust and put it in a container, and cover it with more. The diesel will leach out of the wood and the sawdust will absorb it. Then you can use the sawdust as Firestarter material, etc. It will help draw the diesel out-of the wood. You can then use the sawdust or wood shavings as a mulch in a contained remediation garden, and try to innoculate mushrooms, maybe grow sunflowers there, etc. Try your best to isolate it (and any runoff from it) from getting anywhere.

[@paulyounger1190]

Regarding the point at 8:15 about trying to create distance from the contamination, I do agree that as a general principle it makes sense, but it's worth noting that this cannot be universally applied and there are some documented exceptions. For example, the 2020 study from Italian scientists titled "Micro- and nano-plastics in edible fruit and vegetables. The first diet risks assessment for the general population" (by Gea Oliveri Conti, Margherita Ferrante, Mohamed Banni, Claudia Favara, Ilenia Nicolosi, Antonio Cristaldi, Maria Fiore, Pietro Zuccarello, published in Environmental Research, Volume 187, 2020, ISSN 0013-9351), showed that the fruits from apple trees, had more than twice the concentration of microplastics when compared to lettuce. It kind of boggles my mind how microplastics can be absorbed from the soil into the roots, through the tree's vascular system, and make it all the way into the actual fruit cells. The whole study is quite interesting and I look forward to more studies on the topic. Some other notable observations from their research: there was significant variability of the size of the microplastics detected in different samples, so that may be something to keep in mind when more studies come out regarding microplastic health effects relative to particle size. Also the researchers posit that the uptake and transport mechanism for microplastics is likely the same or similar to the mechanisms for carbon nano-materials, which are slightly more studied than microplastics.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Indeed, microplastics need an entire video on their own. The problem is that it's a newly developing field, and I think we're only now starting to really understand just how bad they are. I think they'll be seen by future generations as the "asbestos" of our generation.

[@bonniepoole1095]

Hyperaccumulators are plants that concentrate metals. Some research is being done to use plants to 'mine' the tailings of spent rare metal mines. This brought up the idea that cruciferous plants are used to mine various metals. Research shows that even trace amounts in soil can be concentrated in some plants; test the plants for toxicity, not the soil! Here's an example of hyperaccumulators: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hyperaccumulators

[@Lauradicus]

Absolutely correct. Sunflowers and Sea Holly are two we are using. It’s best to plant, grow them until fruiting stage, remove them and dispose of them the first year. In our area we are required to dispose of them as toxic waste, which costs a lot but being part of the remediation is a good thing and we are willing to pay for responsible removal. Also application of humic acid in subsequent years can help bind up residual toxins so that even these plants won’t take them up. (Elaine Ingram)

[@bookswithatwist-vanvelzerp9262]

Another question! AFTER I bought my property - I found out a previous own had a fire and they just dug and buried things like old metal desks from the early 80s and chairs and all manner of whatever was in the office they had in the LARGE outbuilding ... SHEESH - so that is right where I had started orchard trees .....

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Usually garbage like that isn't a problem. It doesn't look great but often doesn't leech any chemicals into the ground either. Possibly old printers would be a concern. Most garbage is fabric, aluminum, steel and that's not a concern.

[@bookswithatwist-vanvelzerp9262]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy thank you so much - I have tossed and turned because after all of work - I now have pecan, chestnut and cherry trees above the site! I could have made it my cut flower area if I knew ahead of time ! there may have been a printer or two - but not huge ones so a little leaching I know I can handle

[@georgettesavard4347]

Aluminum being that it is a neurotoxin and 'dummy maker', is a huge concern to me more so because the levels of aluminum in the water and soil is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than it used to be! Why I can only speculate.... I did read that Aluminum can become soluble when soil ph goes below 6. Any thoughts on Aluminum specifically?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

It depends on what form the aluminum is in. Some compounds/oxides that have aluminum are actually pretty stable. Some like AlI3 is really really terrible. I read an article on aluminum toxicity when making this video, but cut that discussion because I felt like it was too specific and too much of a tangent. Let me see if I can dig it up again.... Here: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710549/

[@TheEmbrio]

Oh yeah ! Treat youtube like a drunk guy in a bar :) i’ll share that !

[@PaleGhost69]

Have you heard about the plants that can accumulate certain metals? It's a shame we waste so much effort on profit gmos instead of functional ones.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Indeed, different plants bioaccumulate different elements in varying amounts. Reeds are a good example of a plant that bioaccumulates things that are surprising that the plant would ever take up, which is why Dr Todd uses them so much in his bio machines for soil decontamination.

[@PaleGhost69]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy I was referring to the ones being used for phytomining. Like this one shrub that sucks up so much nickel that it's sap is around 25% nickel. There are experiment farms in the works now. If it works out, we could eliminate a lot of harmful nickel mining. If we could harness those genes, we could make iron wood actually grow iron for us. What if we could have a lithium bush? With some smart genetic engineering we could eliminate a ton of highly damaging mining operations while restoring those contaminated ecosystems at the same time.

[@barbarasimoes9463]

I love your analogies: You Tube=a drunk guy at a bar! Perfect!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

LOL pretty much! Half the time he's just a drunk brain surgeon, but half the time he's a full blown whino. It's a box of chocolates.

[@doinacampean9132]

..."from the mouths of babes and drunks...."... :)

[@johnlamasters3224]

I trust that you will see that I am not disparaging your video or ignoring the disclaimer you had at the beginning about doing one's own research. Therefore, I will be shorter than might be preferable so I don't ramble like I would otherwise. I disagree with what I think your stance is on heavy metals in soil. Some of your ideas are likely applicable to them; I think that by adding organic matter you can decrease the concentrations of those metals. However, to say that plants won't uptake them as much because they have no use for, say, lead, is simply wrong. The whole reason that lead is so dangerous is because living organisms cannot distinguish between it and calcium, and thus absorb and store it much like calcium rather than removing it from the body. This is why lead accumulates and remains in your bones. Plants will simply absorb it as they would with calcium. In general, I think you needed to draw a clearer distinction between toxins that can biologically degrade and toxins that cannot, because the ways that one would manage those over time can be very different. Lots of your ideas seem pretty legitimate to me, but they may be more apt to apply to only certain types of toxins.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Do you have any links for any of that? I find it very questionable that a plant would not be able to distinguish between lead and calcium, just based on their charge, type, and weight/size. I'm not saying it's not true, just that it's extremely surprising if that's true and I'd love to read about why.

[@johnlamasters3224]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy It seems like plants do actually have more methods for decreasing lead toxicity to the plant than I thought (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21541849/#:~:text=Despite%20its%20lack%20of%20essential%20function%20in%20plants%2C,surface%20area%2Croot%20exudation%2C%20and%20degree%20of%20mycorrhizal%20transpiration.?adlt=strict&toWww=1&redig=A90A61F5B5E64DDA82C56146A2B12D5E). I was assuming too much common biology between animals and plants. While I was correct that they absorb the lead through calcium mechanisms, they are better at isolating it in the roots before it spreads through the plant than I realized. It does still, however, seem to me that the mechanisms that isolate the toxins in these plants do not make them less dangerous in the soil to humans when the plant dies. I am not currently aware of any biologically interactive chemical structure which render heavy metals safe to humans. It'd be different for, say, cyanide, which only contains normal elements for life to work with and is common in nature; cyanide can break down very quickly in the right circumstances. I fail to see how plants storing toxins in vacuoles or low-phytotoxicity chemicals is an improvement from the perspective of someone consuming the plant. This functionally infinite lifespan and potential for bioaccumulation is probably a better reason to draw a distinction between heavy metals and complex toxins than the ones that I originally gave. There are still artificial organic toxins which don't break down very effectively, like polychlorinated biphenyls, but heavy metals seem almost uniquely toxic because they are dangerous regardless of form. That mercury atom will pretty much always be mercury, and it will most likely never leave the soil unless it leaches out into rivers or groundwater. It can at least be conceived that eventually some bacterial species will evolve the ability to break down an organic compound, but lead is a famously stable element which lies at the bottom of a lot of radioactive decay chains. I might be surprised though. I would look into it more, but I have to go to sleep.

[@cdevpayne]

It is snowing here and i have put on media not to eat the snow, it is full of chemicals. from chemtrails.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Good heavens...

[@iHATEbigots666]

I really appreciate how you presented the information in this video. I like the emphasis on looking into things that you've heard from people. I also appreciate the links to papers, I'm really bad at doing research on the internet and this is a great starting point for me. I'm wondering, even if my backyard soil is polluted, is there any guarantee that the soil big agriculture uses to grow my supermarket food doesn't have the same or higher concentration of pollutants? Thanks😊

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

The only way to tell which is worse would be tests of the food itself. Depending on what was on your land, it's extremely possible that your food grown there may be substantially worse.

[@iHATEbigots666]

Just bought a new house and looked on Google maps and saw that in the yard there used to be a lot of trash and motor vehicles. Additionally, even though the previous owners were supposed to clean up all the trash from the lawn, there is still a sprinkling of plastic, metal, and other materials. Very interested in growing my own food that I've done in the past. I'd be happy to trucking some topsoil raised beds but I have the sense that this is not very environmentally friendly, topsoil is a limited resource and trucking it would cost fossil fuels. Part of the reason I want to grow my own food at home is to be more sustainable, so trucking in the soil seems self-defeating. So I will definitely get a soil test done and hope for the best. Something I wonder is, even if my backyard soil is somewhat contaminated, perhaps it would still be less contaminated than food I buy at the store, as I would not use pesticides myself. Is there any guarantee that the soils used to grow food at the store are less contaminated in my backyard ? On one hand, my backyard is small so pollutants would be concentrated. On the other hand I imagine there's a decent amount of pollution occurring from the use of heavy machinery in industrial agriculture. On the other hand, maybe all of this is a moot point because humanity has doomed itself and I should just focus on growing food for the short-term instead of avoiding an increased risk of a long-term health problem

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

It sucks to have to spend carbon and gas to remediate soils. However, if they parked cars there, the soils are insanely contaminated, almost certainly. Don't put the negative aspects of spending carbon/gas above the positive impacts of remediating the land. If it were my land, I would do the following: 1) If the contaminated area is small, grow a pollinator garden there, and be aware of what is downhill of that area (leeching and rain runoff), and also do pollinator gardens there. 2) If the area of contaminated soil is the entire property, I would excavate and bring in new topsoil, and feel very confident that any additional pollution I would generate in doing so, is more than offset from the fact that I'm taking a full household or more worth of food production out of the industrial agriculture system.

[@iHATEbigots666]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy awesome, I really appreciate your opinion and time! Haha I'll definitely be learning a lot by doing this.