Should Humans Exist in Fantasy?

Humans are in nearly every fantasy realm, but should they be? Honestly, we're far worse at most things than the other sapient species. Do humans even have a place in fantasy?
#elves #dwarves #humans #dnd #dnd5e #history #worldbuilding #fantasy
Credits:
The Grungeon Master logo, intro, and background music were composed by the wonderful Janina Arndt!
Find her here: / janinaarndt

[@henryjones3232]

Another thing humans are called Good At is that they seem to learn things faster, being quick on the uptake. They do not have 50 master carpenters like an elven city, they have 300 decent carpenters with the capacity to make as many more as they want in the 15 years it takes to raise a generation’s children

[@Luredreier]

That's definitely a point that's important. A dwarven city that has a trade deal with another species might find it useful to add a few human blacksmiths to increase their production under dwarven supervision to increase their profit.

[@nicholashodges201]

There's another point involving cities nobody ever seems to pick up on that shows a VERY powerful advantage humans have over other races in typical fantasy. Human social ability. Humans are the *only* race that will freely cooperate with all of the other races, unless the other races are too hostile. It's not a big leap for them very good at playing the races off of each other & cleaning up the scraps once the dust settles. You're definitely right about the skill and learning thing. Except in most rpgs where elves and dwarves learn/get XP at the same rate as shorter lived races. I personally make elves & dwarves more conservative towards new ways & things as a way to help differenciate between them and humans. Like they're still not sure the "plow" is going to catch on after humans have already moved to the "seed drill"

[@sspectre8217]

⁠@@nicholashodges201you make a really god point considering humans evolved eating the scraps left by other scavenger species. Of course they would learn to scavenge after the wars of other sentient species. Humans are excellent social scavengers

[@qq-wy7zs]

Don't underestimate the human ability to make friends. We can be very good at rewarding those that are nice to us. I've never seen a story where an elf becomes king of Goblins but I have seen a story about a human doing that.

[@AzraelThanatos]

You also have the progression of skills there. When working on something, you have diminishing returns the further into something you go, fewer ways to improve a skill. So, how much better is a 500 year old dwarven smith than a 50 year old human...both being viewed as masters of their craft. You also hit the entire thing of the results combined with the speed of it. An elven craftsman might spend a year working on a single dagger, leaving a highly ornate and special in many ways. The human makes it in an hour or so there and is more willing to churn out daggers that do their job rather well without the embelishments and such that elves would be appalled to not include in their work. It may not be a work of art like the elfs work, but it's entirely functional. And you also hit the population growth speed. Elves and dwarves can't really risk things early on, but human children might already be learning their skills in ways that the other species view as extremely dangerous...or why are you putting them into a role rather than letting them grow and find their "destined" job that they'd do well.

[@devourlordasmodeus]

It tends to actually be fairly logical in fantasy, Elves and Dwarves are isolationist and breed much more slowly and faster breeding races don't have the same social incentive in their society to cooperate thus they don't thrive as well as humans.

[@qq-wy7zs]

I think he's underestimating the generalist nature of fantasy humans. He basically said that species play to their strengths and, since we don't have one, we'll lose. But look at it this way. When up against Elves, they have a few masters at war, powerful mages. They're all veteran warriors but there's a small amount of them. These would excel at guerilla warfare in the forests or, likewise, in swamps or hills (swamp elves). So, we don't tight them in the forests. Compared to elves we breed like Goblins, goblins that use crossbows like dwarves and magic like ... a not as good elf. Can one elven mage fight off 10 human mages? 100? What's the ratio? Can one elven mage fight one human mage and 100 crossbowmen? When fighting goblins we fight like dwarves, slow and methodical, using choke points and fortifications. Dwarves we fight in the field using our speed and magic to our advantage. This all depends on ratios. How much better/worse are we? How many more/fewer of us are there? Makes the argument kind of semantic when you can just say that elves are so good at magic that one average elf can beat an army 500,000 human battle wizards with gear in your story.

[@devourlordasmodeus]

@qq-wy7zs I don't actually care or consider the generalist/adaptable nature of humans, I more or less treat that as a trait of any sapient race, the fact is our breeding rate and desire to spread out beats dwarves and elves, and our cooperation as a social species beats goblins and orcs, not to mention dwarves and elves hating the later races as well.

[@morrigankasa570]

​@@devourlordasmodeusIt depends on the fantasy setting the relationships between Elves, Dwarves, Humans, etc. Look at Christopher Paolini's Inheritance Cycle, the Elves are Isolationist for the most part. But in the past helped Humans "evolve" past barbarism. Similar to the Dwarves, they are mostly Isolationist as well. But at times in the past helped Humans improve as well. What's more there was an acknowledgement that Dwarves and Humans are somewhat similar to each other, that Elves are the most distant and unlike any other Race.

[@CasperTheRamKnight]

humans are social species tho@@qq-wy7zs

[@bgcvetan]

Isolation is always stupid policy.

[@Xaphedo]

I think the "generalist" property is often oversimplified. While human societies might be generalists, there's nothing really saying that individual humans cannot be specialists. Moreover, if we take as an example the 5e variant human mechanic of gaining a feat, which is no small thing, they can be impressive specialists at that. I also feel like the adaptability of humans is often misunderstood. It goes hand in hand with their ability to crossbreed and mingle with other species: while the average of all human societies might be dull and generic, specific settlements and cultures might be highly integrated into otherwise hostile environments, especially once 2nd+ generation half-humans start making up the bulk of the population.

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

I just imagine what makes pure-blooded humans so special is their ability to adapt in situations and pure-blooded human abilities to crossbreed. But would also mean half-human would lose the ability to crossbreed and adapt too. making half-elves to only breed with half-elves or pure-blooded of their species. Making the half-human to live in a society pure blood of their kind or living in a society of half-elves

[@Xaphedo]

@@majesticgothitelle1802 To clarify, my point about adaptation is that individual human settlements or subcultures would be highly adapted to a specific type of environment, broadly increasing human success as a species. How hybrid humans would work exactly is usually a bit of an overlooked bit of lore, but if we subscribe to the way genes work IRL we're likely to find "half" humans that are much more humans than not, or the other way around. With that premise, I feel that it could take quite a long time in generational isolation for a mixed gene pool to fully lose its generalist and adaptive advantages.

[@TheGreatCreator101]

I guess in that case it's more accurate to say that humans are generalists in isolation. Humans adapt and specialize to any environment they decide to settle in.

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

@@TheGreatCreator101 humans already able to adapted to their new environment through small changes and mutations to survive in a short period of time called micro evolution. Humans quickly adapt to much higher radiation levels, the body is quickly able to adapt in newer environments to adjust body temperature core, climate adaptation, develop adjustments to pigments, thicker callus or internal bacteria adaptation. Able to pass that adaptation to their offspring. Plus the most extreme and impossible ways that humans survive from d deadly to near death experience. Humanity would be a race defined as a survival species. Imagine surviving an iron rob that pierces through your head or survived 100 free from the sky. Either humanity has the highest luck attribute, one of the ultimate survival species or deities of death just like us more. I just imagine other long lifespan species seeing humans doing stupid and extremely dangerous things as normal and act slightly surprised that they are surviving it. Or watching a TV show called Stan Lee superhuman

[@MauroDraco]

Specially if they congregate not only in very large cities, but having the "monopoly" on them.

[@animorph17]

I am now reminded of humans in dwarf fortress, where their immediately obvious specialty is that they have the most variety in what are effectively the best weapon designs. Dwarves have axes, swords, and maces that all have their different specialties, but humans show up rocking a halberd that outshines them all. But this doesn't really hold up on close inspection, as they don't exactly have the best /weapons/ period, they just have the best designs for what poor quality weapons they do make. Their true specialty is trading. Humans go everywhere and trade with everyone, getting ahold of everyone else's stuff.

[@sayerglasgow115]

I definitely think trading, and using their generalist status and usual ability to get along with everyone, is humanity's greatest and possibly most narratively compelling niche in fantasy worlds- certainly much better than the genocidal uber-empires that edgy 40k fans keep coming up with. A civilization of elves needs metal to make their tools and stone to make their buildings, and have deposits of both on their land, but elves really don't like digging around in the dirt and they don't see eye to eye with dwarves (heh). But, you know who can mine and quarry just fine and can generally get along pretty well with elves? Humans. A dwarven king wants to trade the gold and gems from his mines far and wide, but not very many dwarves are interested in sailing or going on long journeys overland. But, humans can and will for a fair share of the profits. An orc warlord wants to batter down the gates of a city and pillage its inhabitants, but he realizes that his own people aren't any good at building siege equipment. But, there are warlike humans who like a good fight almost as much as an orc and are a lot more mechanically adept, and gaining their aide is more than worth letting them take a share of the loot. I would expect humans to perhaps be a bit like halflings, in that they may not have that many great kingdoms and empires of their own, but you can find plenty of prosperous enclaves of humans in the empires founded by other races, doing whatever work the specialists can't or don't want to do. I think people, including the guy in the video, have a tendency to think of a fantasy world with different races in terms of all of those races existing in a state of total genocidal war in a fight to the last one standing, and thus you get people either complaining that humans aren't strong enough to "win", or that humans will fin easily because muh HFY. But it's a really childish mindset and leads to uninteresting worldbuilding.

[@rafibausk7071]

​@@sayerglasgow115I personally think he raised some interesting points. But I do agree with what you're saying about not everyone being in constant genocidal war. (With orcs being the major exemption) I've generally thought of the various fantasy races. Being environmentally segregated. Elves live in the ancient old growth forests. Dwarves live under the ground. (They may even have a species wide case of agoraphobia.) And humans, halfling, and orcs. Live everywhere else. The plains, the coasts, the swamps, the surface of the mountains, the desert, the tundra, islands. I could very easily see and I'm pretty sure there have been various examples. Where the humans have a small settlement or town on the surface. And it turns out there's a dwarf settlement right underneath their feet.

[@sayerglasgow115]

@@rafibausk7071 DnD's Forgotten Realms setting has a city like that, and it works as you'd expect- humans on the surface do agriculture and trading, and meanwhile right below them is a massive complex of dwarven mines.

[@rafibausk7071]

@@sayerglasgow115 are you talking about Icewind Dale? I know I've seen something like that over there. But I was talking general.

[@sayerglasgow115]

@@rafibausk7071 No, it's called Mirabar.

[@darklordofsword]

One of the problems is a fundamental issue of writing fiction; its hard, as humans, for us to write sonething that is so fundamentally different from ourselves that it doesn't just read as a literary version of Star Trek's "rubber forehead aliens" problem. Either you wind up with "theyre not so different", or with endless naval-gazing that ONLY focuses on the differences (eg the endless agonizing of Drizzt about what a burden his long lifespan is).

[@Wesley_Youre_a_Rabbit]

Harder still is being able to PLAY as something “inhuman” without it just being a quirky human in behavior. Players, and their fellow party members, would likely not enjoy playing something truly alien as they would have to do things that go against the party’s very human goals and sensibilities. That’s why most of the fantasy races are just re-skinned humans with quirks and strange cultures.

[@thiagom8478]

Perhaps what most people look for when they are writing/reading fantasy is to reaffirm the assumption that their perspective and their feelings are "Universal". Doesn't need to involve non-humans even, we "make past (and the future) present" in all sorts of variations of Jetsons and Flintstones formula. If a society has something that is not "us", like arranged marriages or castes, slavery, cannibalism, what have you, it is only there to stress the point that it is wrong. The "biological immortality is bad" trope is the extreme case of that absurd xenophobia, I believe. And becomes even worse when it is not even immortality, or extended lifespan. Like the case you mention, where this so called "long" lifespan is the natural lifespan of someone. I don't believe that's what everybody looks for in fiction. I don't see that as a "human" difficulty. Greek Deities did not crave to be ephemerals, usually. Even most elves from Tolkien don't. Even Bran Stocker's Dracula is pretty happy about being a vampire, and looking for improve his existence as a vampire. Dracula is Evil, certainly, but there is nothing wrong about Tolkien elves, as a people. They are what they are supposed to be. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps I am being unfair. Perhaps it will sound worse than it should. Anyway. From where I am sitting most of that difficulty to see anything from another point of view (even in fantastic fiction) is a core ingredient of United States Way of look at things, and "feel" existence. "There is our way, and there is the wrong way" seems to be the natural approach for Yankees. A lot, a really huge lot, of people here in Brasil does this same xenophobic deformation when they look any subject. However, interestingly, they do not place Brasil at the centre of their worlds, and deform things to serve this vision centred around Brazilian culture. They place "America" in the centre, and treat what is not like "America" as wrong, without a second thought about what they are doing. That's the main reason why I believe this xenophobic way of tell stories and worldbuilding may be a problem of US and US satellite nations. Not a problem of humans as humans, but a specific cultural taste. Goes without saying: when you are planning a adventure of RPG you must consider what your players are looking for. The goal is to have fun, not to frustrate (another word for the same thing is "educate", nowadays) the players. If people want to play Star-Trek aliens in a medieval fantasy setting, there is no reason to shame anyone for that preference.

[@kogorun]

When you talk about the American way of looking at things, you're describing the way an empire is looking at things.

[@thiagom8478]

Perhaps,@@kogorun. In a metaphorical sense, maybe, since empires in a most literal sense should have an hereditary ruler of some sort. But, still, I am not sure if I agree that all empires must share this same way of looking at things in order to be considered empires. The Roman Empire was very close to that, they had some opening to absorve other cultures and religions but always in the Roman way of doing that. Same goes for US. The empire Alexander was building would perhaps end um more as a mix of different ways than as a imposition of Greek/Macedonian way of life. His conquests changed his original culture as much as they changed the conquered, I believe. Resulting in something new. Still, Alexandre was a expansionist ruler. There are empires that seem to have no interest in expand their culture. "Civilized the Barbarians". The Greeks before being conquered by Macedonia didn't seemed to feel any inclination to change the barbarians, as far as I know. Jewish people (whatever we say about their extermination campaign against the Palestine people, happening now) proudly boast their lack of proselytism, and I do agree with them that's something a nations should feel proud for. Makes them a lot more likeable, in my opinion. China has a long History of not expanding and leaving their barbarian neighbours undisturbed in their barbarian ways. What gives (some) credit to their claims that they will NOT adopt the ugly habits of US. Once they consolidate themselves in the position of first economy and military power in the know Universe. Instead they will keep their current policy of mutual profit from commerce, technological advancement, and no intervention in internal affairs of other nations. I don't see why an (metaphorical) "empire" could not work following those guidelines. US is certainly attracting a lot of strong and fair opposition and disfavour, for trying to keep pushing the agenda of "civilize" the "barbarians" Woke fashion. Why not to drop that?

[@albertwestbrook4813]

Star Trek's "rubber forehead" problem was addressed in a TNG episode where the first intelligent species in our galaxy, finding themselves alone, spread DNA across the galaxy to create more intelligent species. They used themselves as models, so huge similarities arose. We just wound up as the " Swiss Army Knife" of evolution.

[@theinsanegamer1024]

Apparently, in Ben 10, every sapient species has something interesting and special about them. Some can shoot fire, some can control plants (some can do both), some are naturally very durable, or able to do something or has something. Humans? Universal breeders. ...Makes us good negotiators as well, "charisma" is literally our thing. I don't 100% know if this is true, but given there was a kid of an alien *made of lava* and a human, I think it might be.

[@alexandrub8786]

Pretty sure the special humans are called "osmosians" and the majority are just dormant. You know like psykers in the 40k appearing later in human history.

[@krinkrin5982]

Considering that hormones have a huge impact on how you see another person, I'd say this is definitely the case.

[@segismundosaulalex3065]

​@@krinkrin5982 From the creators of "Humans are space orcs" Coming this summer. "Humans are space succubi"

[@kujojotarostandoceanman2641]

Our special ability is sex 😎

[@wdyd_masterattwitch4956]

In the first movie, wasn't it established that a lot of races love eating humans.

[@Mastikator]

The reason other races are all basically human+ is that we take our own unique features for granted and then add them to fantasy races. In the animal kingdom humans have many strong traits, like the ability to throw far with high accuracy, or the ability to sweat, or supreme intelligence, or the fact that we can resist poison. If we were to change fantasy races so that they gained exhaustion at much faster rate, and were unable to throw with any accuracy or force beyond 6 meters then their pointy ears start to look lackluster, and few people would actually want to play non-human races.

[@Aufsammelkabbler]

Yeah, that is true. Another thing where we like to be very humanocentric is in the brain department, especially today. It is hard for us to Imagine what exact impacts it would have for a society of orcs for example if they are as a collective seriously impaired intelligence wise compared to humans. We tend to simplify this as them being more brutal or living in more primitive/tribalistic societies and that leads to the unpleasant comparison to the legends told of every society at some point of history about the „babarians“. Since our own moral system works on the principle egalitarian assumption that we all are the same as human beings it seems inherently wrong to attribute negative attributes to fantasy species. But if we are honest it is highly unlikely that an alien species for example is exactly as intelligent as humans on average and possesses the same higher brain functions. Just Imagine an orc society where people tend to forget even important information in months or years. Where it is extremely hard to organize larger groups. Where abilities like object permanence require deep thought for many individuals in the tribe. Where many simply don‘t possess the ability for empathy (which is an insanely complex brain function by the way. Being able to project yourself into another being and feeling their pain or joy is not something that has to be present in another lifeform. In a society where even the most intelligent members struggle with addition and subtraction, lets not talk about multiplication The possibility to master certain cultural techniques might be impossible. Such an society might also be highly gullible when confronted with vastly more intelligent species. All of this holds true for vastly more intelligent species as well but in this scenario we are the orcs in this setting. Truely incorporating all of this and the consequences of it into a fantasy setting without just making orcs basically humans living in a hunter gatherer society is mindbreakingly hard and not realy feasible for a pen&paper game. It is also extremely close to racist stereotypes told about the others, the enemies or the slaves that it rightfully doesn‘t sit well for many people but it would play a huge role in any world dynamics and might answer the question how humans are able to thrive.

[@GoranXII]

One important thing to consider, we might not be surviving _purely off our own backs_ . Think of LOTR, only an alliance of humans and elves was able to beat Sauron, so perhaps one or more of the other races _supports_ us in a way, without being too obvious, so that we can play the role of meat-shields or army fillers when a big war comes.

[@Grivehn]

Warhammer fantasy has plenty examples of that, too. Kislev is the shield of the Empire on the north, whilst Border Princes on the south. Bretonnia is the shield of High and Wood Elves, and the Empire itself is a shield for Dwarfs and Elves in general, since Chaos focuses most of its ire on mankind, not the 'dying' races. Funnily enough Dark Elves also serve as a shield in the New World against Chaos, for the rest of the world, but Malekith surely wouldnt like to hear being put it like that. In the same way a lot of Greenskin, Skaven and Chaos Dwarf aggression is directed towards the last few Dwarfholds. Without those city fortresses, the Old World would be overrun.

[@ShadowWolfRising]

The race that ultimately destroys Sauron for good aren't even Human, they are Hobbits.

[@GoranXII]

@@ShadowWolfRising A feat only managed because the elves drew off all of Sauron's forces.

[@ShadowWolfRising]

Exactly, the Elves. @@GoranXII

[@krinkrin5982]

@@Grivehn There's also the fact that when the humans first appeared on the scene, it was elves and dwarves that were the dominant civilizations. However, one devastating war and a natural disaster later, the dwarves have lost most of their cities, and the elves isolated themselves from much of the world.

[@kailenmitchell8571]

I really wanted to make a campaign setting where humans are tribal nomads and the dominate people are elves and dwarves. Human are thought of as just more civilized goblinoids.

[@robrib2682]

if you go with the tried & true "dwarf hate goblin" and "elf hate orc" then having a human party member deal with what normally would be a combat encounter and being able to go into the goblin camp to say "hey, those weird people with beards and axes just want that stone hammer back and all this nonsense will end. So lets ransom it back" would be a neat encounter Edit: also explaining to the orcs that they're under siege in their camp because they chopped down a tree and if they just leave the forest it'll likely stop would be fun

[@thiagom8478]

I have tried to sketch variations of that concept a few times. The one that comes to my mind is one where I got a (somewhat typical, but a bit more cruel than usual) medieval setting with no humans in it. To introduce the humans as survivors from the crash of a spaceship, who lost any chance of contact with their interstellar civilization. Can't even say for sure if that's their Universe or not. Then we have a very small population of humans, who cannot eat the food nor drink the water, outside the small territory they managed to clean and populate with their animals. Every other specie can do magic, and can "gain levels" (RPG style) humans cannot. The average orc (for instance) 'level 3', the average dwarf 'level 5', the average elf 'level 11'. All humans are level 0, with no chance to gain levels. Therefore very easily killed (as normal people are, when compared to the heroic characters of epic fantasy). First generations survived because they still had weapons and technology, but those things don't endured this magically rich environment. So now humans are seriously desperate, with little memory of where their people came from or why no deity likes them. Never managed to write the story. One thing I didn't tried, but that just occurred to me that could work, is to have no human as main character. If minotaurs are the dominant race in your setting make most your characters minotaurs. A few of them could me dwarves, or elves, or what have you. After the first quarter of the book, in a world with no humans, they met the humans as random encounter, like we would usually met orcs or snake-folk. Them they kill those humans without hesitation, because they are minions for the evil warlord, or barbarian cannibals trying to eat them, just like we would do with orcs or snake-folk. No need to have humans as main characters. They play the role of background element as easily as any other fantasy race can. And if they do, then in that story human life will have the same value orc life usually has in the average setting of epic fantasy. I suppose.

[@Maladjester]

Last D&D campaign I ran took place in a hobgoblin empire where other goblinoids were second-class citizens and "good" races were chattel slaves. The hostiles raiding fringe settlements weren't goblins or orcs, but free humans coming down from the mountains. Where in a typical campaign the party might be prodded by an eccentric wizard towards recovering ancient magic to defeat some looming evil, in this one the party was owned by said wizard and ordered to search for the magic so the empire could smash the elven kingdom next door. A simple enough reversal but I think everyone enjoyed it.

[@parttimehero8640]

In one of my campaigns all humans are extinct. Elves , dwarf goblin and orcs are result of magical and genetic engineering for supersoldiers. Some native species have been subjugated long ago... But now no one know about humans. Their ruins all but totally destroyed. In the remnants new empires rose and fell.

[@thiagom8478]

That's a nice setting,@@parttimehero8640. I suppose you placed some clues in the background to suggest that "Planet of the Apes" effect in the players? But since humans are extinct there was no character in the story to cry out loud about that. Maybe some ancient bunker with advanced human technology which turned into useless garbage long time ago, or human corpses preserved in some ice mountain somewhere. That could be a setting with fantasy races but without magic. Something similar to what George RR Martin did with vampires in his Fever Dream.

[@OakandIV]

Overlord did a fun job of presenting a High Fantasy world where humans were just barely hanging on, and then just because we had outside help.

[@Mahbu]

Yes, what we don't see in the anime is the world BEFORE Yggdrasil's magic system was introduced. That magic allowed humanity to thrive to some extent whereas before they were on the verge.

[@cegesh1459]

I hope you don't mean the Anime... NPCs are not something I call interessting.

[@OakandIV]

@@cegesh1459 if you are interested, try the light novels. They are seriously amazing.

[@schyzm]

@@cegesh1459 I think you don't understand that the anime doesn't take place in a game. The world is similar to the game he used to play, but the world itself is another world. The "NPCs" are actual creatures and people in that world. Overlord isn't SAO, he isn't trapped in a game, he was transported to another world as his character.

[@erkdoc5]

@@cegesh1459 The NPCs are the residents of Nazarick that came with the main characters. The humans of that world are just regular people. For context, Yggdrasil's magic system was introduced when people from Yggdrasil entered the world some time before the main character. They used a world item (a very powerful magical item) to change the magic of the world to Yggdrasil's. It had the downside of messing with lineage magic native to that world, for example dwarves stopped being born able to use rune magic. To add to it, a lot of the perspectives of other characters are great.

[@ArakkoaChronicles]

I've always seen it as humans being the barbarians to the elven Romans. Not making elves Roman, just that... they were the old civilization, and we just overwhelmed them with numbers, ferocity - and a social and political weakness they had at the time we came onto the scene. And yes, goblins outpace humans at that - and that's why humans are afraid of them. They're afraid they'll be next. So far, goblins are held back by poor medicine/healing, so while they have a lot of babies, they also have very low life expectancy. If goblins learn how to keep more of themselves alive, or catch humans at a weak point, they might be the next dominant race.

[@KevinWarburton-tv2iy]

Smart Humans would make friends with some Goblins just like some smart Elves made friends with some humans. Set a thief to catch a thief ...i.e. having a friendly Goblin neighbour or friendly Goblins settled in border provinces might well be a good defence. Offer benefits to Goblins of being in empire/realm or being a Client-State or trading partner & in return your Empire gets a fast breeding replenishible foot-soldiery and/or useful buffer states. You cement that alliance by supporting that tribe/nation in defence against it's rival nations of it's Species & and against other enemies elsewhere. For example Roman Empire allowed some barbarian groups fleeing conflict across their borders & then those Clans/Tribes helped guard that border or were sent to other borders of Empire. Little enclaves of those groups got established within the empire.

[@mateuszosuch6267]

There is also one specific thing - humans have shortest lifespan of "high" races - which basically means that sharing knowledge is one of the most important traits for such community. That would lead us to be much more efficient with ingenuity than dwarwes and elves - elves and dwarves would (and mostly are in depictions) focus on individual skills rarely passing them down to aprrentieces, whereas humans would start guilds from the get go. Which would allow humans to have more organized and faster moving society.

[@Dranguinidae_Opalux]

Yeah, and because of that, the dwarves or elves *would* have better craftsmanship, because they are more individual masters of their crafts, where we have our mass-produced or highly efficient social structures and systems. I like this explanation.

[@bobbycrosby9765]

Arguably, a quicker evolution of social structures would eventually lead to superior craftsmanship. Think of how your grandparents approach tech and societal change. Now imagine they're 10x older and in charge of everything. In my worlds, I have Elves stuck in a bronze age era of tech. They make up for it with immortality and some natural magic. No new-fangled steel for them, they lug their bronze cuirass uphill both ways in a sandy desert.

[@DiceWarwick]

Personally, I go with Humans being natural beast masters, where when you do find humans, there are always dogs nereby, not to forget horses, oxen, cats, rabbits, pidgons, and a hole host of non-domesticated animals that tend to enjoy human compony. Hell, we had a bear fight in WW1 I think, might have been WW2. It be an intresting race feature that by defult, a human can pic a basic animal companion, and if an ranger, they can have two. The humans aren't that terrifying to fight on their own, but a human and their hounds, that changes everything. Even the terrifying wolf, who tolerates no trespassers on their land, plays nice with humans if the humans play nice with them.

[@goodhunter9791]

That's actually a pretty cool take on it. Gonna make a note of that in my little DM Journal

[@Plaugus_Screenz]

Humans lords of the plains king of beasts

[@user-sm4mi8ug9q]

Yes you are correct in ww2 the swedish somehow managed to tame a bear that helped them carry supplies and load up and fire artillery shells at the nazis, also I saw a vid once of a Russian family that also managed to somewhat tame a bear, also I think this is a cool idea that would work great in a fantasy setting.

[@DiceWarwick]

@@user-sm4mi8ug9q In the Koran War the US Marines got themselves a hoarse to move ammo. It effectively became a VIP that insured they not just won their fights, but saved many lives. Oh and lets not forget all the dog.

[@DrkLrdHan0n]

@@user-sm4mi8ug9q You're thinking of Corporal Wojtek of the Polish Army, a bear some polish refugee soldiers raised after his mother was killed by hunters. He was later taken care of in a zoo in Britain after the war where his old comrades would get free admission to visit their old friend till he passed in the 50s/60s.

[@luci1st43]

I'd like to mention that not all fantasy races are prepared to create settlements in all places; whether this is due to cultural or biological reasons, elven and dwarven settlements tend to be near wooded areas and mines respectively. Depending on the geography of the fantasy world, humans might have the most land that could be settled, and given enough time, become the most populous. Goblins might also have this characteristic, though I am not sure if they tend to create settlements in the same ways humans, elfs, or dwarfs do.

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

I just imagine humans feel more comfortable with other non-long lifespan species. So humans wanted to create a nation but needed a negotiator for goblin and ogre. So humans described the nation, how it would function, laws, trade, protection, agriculture, food, housing, clothing and currency but needed their land. The human told the goblin and ogre to pick a leader to be their noble mayor for the new nation and helped create a town or village for the estate.

[@ChasePhifer-hj3wl]

Well, not all elves or dwarves want to live in trees or mountains, respectively, just like humans don't all want to live in a crowded city on the coast. The difference is, I don't call a human that lives in rural Idaho a Meadow Human, nor a Canadian in the northwest territory a Frost Human.

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

@@ChasePhifer-hj3wl I never mention dwarves or elves live in forest or trees. I'm saying that humans may feel so disconnected and uncomfortable with the long lifespan species. so humans rather trade and negotiate with those species. They rather trade and negotiate with species that are much closer to lifespan to themselves for they don't have change nor candidate the lifestyle of others long lifespan species. The long lifespan species would affect the shorter lifespan species from commuter, educational, housing, job and financial level.

[@ChasePhifer-hj3wl]

@majesticgothitelle1802 Your first sentence talks about the geographical separation. In either case, I was alluding to those who buck the trend being called [geographic region species] (eg desert elf, Ice Dwarf).

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

@@ChasePhifer-hj3wlautocorrect it was supposed to be xenophobic

[@MrFish1124]

My Homebrew setting, part of the reason humans rose to domince is because they were the first wizards. Elves were traditionally very connected with nature, so the most prominent spell casters from their culture were druids. Humans however began experimenting with the weave of magic in ways most other races haven't, so when war sparked between humans and elves, one side having counter spell was very significant.

[@FangofFate]

Following up on that adaptability point, “high tolerance of pain” is how I also differentiate humans in my world. Not just physical pain, but emotional pain too. Humans are more likely to endure suffering, put themselves through deadly locales and close to dangerous creatures, and minimize their own pain, all for the sake of a goal or to make a settled land work

[@megazero713]

One recurring thing I see in the old "Humanity Fuck Yeah!" stories is human's ability to pact bond with basically anything. Domestication of useful species en mass and the ability to work with other races almost seamlessly if conflict isn't direct. Along with their skill to mimic and recreate the technology (or spells) of other races. Many spells were made by other creatures in D&D, the mage hand spell for instance was made by a gold dragon, which was dissected and recreated by Bigby to be compatible with human casters.

[@user-sm4mi8ug9q]

But what stops some other species coming along and doing the same things? Accept possibly ten times better and without the restrictions that dwarfs and elfs have

[@thiagom8478]

Well, @@user-sm4mi8ug9q, I believe what prevents that is that you can only have one Marry Sue Specie for setting (a Universal Law of Worldbuilding, I suppose, don't know which number). If that's humans, then the sit is taken.

[@thewingedone1172]

​@@user-sm4mi8ug9qsame thing that stops humans from living as long as elves. The rules.

[@screamingcactus1753]

@@user-sm4mi8ug9q What if there was a race that could dig tunnels ten times faster and blacksmith ten times better than dwarfs? This seems like kind of a pointless question.

[@kujojotarostandoceanman2641]

"Ahh the negotiator" Honestly makes a lot of sense, if humans are the weakest race, we would strive our ability to learn languages of oder races and become a communicator, like most fantasy settings there would be little reasons for different species to share the same languages, but as the weakest, to survive we will learn it all and gain power through information and negotiation

[@UnswimmingFishYT]

The Elder Scrolls is much more effective at explaining how humans can be so strong. Elves in general breed slower, and both Orc and Dwarf are actually elven races, meaning the only ones to compete in rapidly producing more people would be Argonians and Khajiit, the former favoring their homeland and the latter just not being a very warlike people in general. Orcs in particular didn't initially exist in TES, being an altered elf race that appeared after others had already established themselves, and have been historically kept from advancing as a race, remaining scattered in smaller pockets through most of Tamriel's timeline. Redguards took a land that nobody else wanted, and Bretons were originally normal humans owned by elves who interbred with them so long that the hybrid race became the population majority and naturally took over without competition. Nords are stated to be fairly simple warrior types, but are just so tough as a race that their physical strength combined with numbers was enough to overwhelm everything else in range, so they conquered Skyrim and rapidly built a population which spread over it quickly, sped up to some extent by their rougher lives leading to a culture where couples marry and have children in a hurry, in case of the dangerous land they live in ending their lives too soon. This leads to a civilization where most can fight, strength is very valued and strived towards, and population is both large and can recover from conflicts easily, demonstrated by their tendency to go to war a lot of times with both each other and neighboring people without suffering much from it long-term, and they stay less developed and simpler as a result. Finally Imperials, a race of human which like Bretons totally belonged to an elven population in Cyrodiil, and overthrew them more due to divine intervention in the form of two demigods than their own merit, and remained strong through constant alliance with Nords, being welcoming to the Orcs who made good fighters, and a combination of focusing a lot on maintaining a strong military while also often favoring diplomacy to deal with the other civilizations which totally surround them. Imperials also have multiple harsh points in their history when they have trouble dealing with all sorts of conflicts, making them believable.

[@NamelessKing1597]

The exceptions for anyone wondering are the Bosmer which breed at a rate comperable to humans and because of their long lifespan end up having huuuuge families. Also Orcs have always been in TES but until one of the multiple endings of the second game were just thought to be the bigger smarter cousin of goblins. I do love how the games use real world cultures for inspiration for the various races though.

[@piercingmoon24]

If I recall correctly Imperials are also, as a whole, a mixture of both Nordic and Nedic peoples. Being that the Colovian side is more militaristic and Nibenean side is more Diplomatic/Mercantile.

[@UnswimmingFishYT]

@@piercingmoon24 Mostly Nedes, but yes. There's no wording I'm aware of saying Nords interbred with them which actually says the name Nord, but there is direct mention of "Men of Kreath," which means men from Falkreath, which is Nords. Bruma in particular has also been historically very intermixed with Nords as much as Imperials, and intermarrying between the humans in Bruma is extremely likely to have happened a fair bit.

[@pinappletoast3726]

My guy I love your lore/insight drop but, PLEASE LEARN HOW TO SPACE YOUR STARTING PARAGRAPH

[@zesky6654]

​@@NamelessKing1597I think their limiting factor is that they can't use or eat plants in their homeland because of the pact they made with the forest spirits. Being forbiden from farming and foraging would put a very hard limit on their growth and power.

[@MalloonTarka]

There are two Doylist reasons for humans being average generalists: 1) They can do anything, meaning there is no archetype they cannot fulfill. That's important for escapist fantasy, both in games and stories. Having humans be better or worst at particular things like intelligence or strength pushes them into specialising or avoiding in that niche, which limits character options. 2) Being average lets you give them recognisable cultures and societies, letting humans be the known baseline other races/lineages/sentient species are compared to. If they were mostly specialised in certain things, their culture would look a lot different than it does on Earth. These are also the reason most races/lineages/sentient species are often just as good in the things we _are_ specialised in on Earth, such as endurance, throwing precision, sociability and intelligence, with exceptions or differences leaving humans in the middle and the difference being a defining trait for that race/lineage/sentient species. The campaign I'm running now does not have humans. Or rather, it no longer has them. There were the distant ancestors all current races descend from. Edit: And I completely forgot to mention some other things that make humans special on Earth, but most fantasy races/lineages/sentient species have, namely language (and thus culture and teaching), sweat and other adaptations useful for tool use and production besides intelligence, such as hands.

[@MaxHaydenChiz]

The GURPS Banestorm setting dealt with this by having humans get warped in by a poorly thought through Wish spell. There were no humans at first. But the elves wished for something capable of destroying the Orcs, and that wish warped in humans from a parallel world in such massive numbers that they vastly outnumbered every other species from the outset by orders of magnitude. And every time the banestorm flared up again, more and more humans would arrive. It's a bit contrived, but I think it did a better job at it than most settings in explaining human dominance.

[@lostbutfreesoul]

See, I love explanations like this. It gives humans the upper hand needed to get that foot hold and dig in. One that made me giggle was Jim Butcher's: Sure only 20,000 or so humans just appeared in his universe, but every human found themselves magically gifted. Made sense that, a few thousand years later, there would be a whole thriving empire of the things. An empire that had forgotten the technology of their Roman ancestors, in lue of just being able to ask spirits to do it all. One that had settled in as if they where always there.... A few massive wars fought against the less magical inhabitants, very roman like, and the locals decided it is better to simply accept that humans exist now.

[@user-sm4mi8ug9q]

Imagine if it just warped in the entirety of the u.s military, with equipment and all.

[@settheshallow8913]

I've seen it posited, in some settings, that shorter lifespans mean quicker adaptation to environment, assuming a sufficiently large genepool; it rarely takes many generations for skin colors to adjust based on Vitamin D availability, for example. Of course, in settings with goblins or orcs who have even shorter lifespans? they would likely dominate such contests. Of course, I've always thought that other fantasy 'races' are/should be human species, closely related to homosapiens. Of course, speciation is a blurry line, and very distantly species can at times somehow interbreed. So ultimately 'humans' are just... one type of human. Perhaps an unmodified baseline, before magic or divine blessings? Just a thought...

[@Mahbu]

Tau, Warhammer 40. The use that to explain why they developed so quickly. As for the goblins, you can see their adaptability and potential for growth if left unchecked and the importance of wiping out a WHOLE nest in the anime Goblin Slayer. The eponymous Goblin Slayer makes it a point that you MUST wipe out a whole nest, including the younglings, or they will spread and grow rapidly.

[@xzardas541]

Well there is a reason why goblins are being hunted to shit by other races in most fantasies.

[@mohandasjung]

Goblins and orcs would thrive in a chaotic world or after a big disaster. Humans, elfs and dwarves will always win on the long run, thought

[@Nostripe361]

Usually I see them explain why orcs or goblins don’t take over is either they are constantly culling them or they are so chaotic that they end up infighting so much it keeps their population in check. Basically humans succeed by being the merger between chaos and order Like humans are the middle point between chaos and order, things like elves and dwarves are long lived and more on the order side of things while sapient monsters like like orcs and goblins are pretty much pure chaos

[@GeebusCrust]

Conversely, what if humans are the mutts? It would explain the wide variety of body types, and the fading recollections of knowledges from societies and civilizations that humans have been separated from for generations could explain the lack of a race-wide penchant for one particular craft or way of life. It could even be that the muddling of so many widely different genepools could be the cause of both humans' short lifespans, as well as other older, more established races distrust for humankind

[@ggdynfytugfy6892]

If a setting is one a those “goblins are inherently evil or chaotic” ones, humans may be the fastest repopulating of the good-aligned species, so basically just kept around to fill out the Forces Of Good whenever a Demon King or whatever shows up, though this requires that kind of “elves dwarves and humans are, in overwhelming majority, The Good Guys” type thing

[@zenthossohtnez8331]

Humans are neutral though

[@StarlasAiko]

Goblins are inherently evil by definition. The word "goblin" means "ugly elf" whereas "ugly" refers primarely to their character, alongside their appearance. Also, "Orcs" are just Goblins. Tolkien invented the word "Orc", it is the Sindarin word for "Goblin", just like "Morgen" is the German word for "Morning".

[@screamingcactus1753]

@@StarlasAiko That's only true in Tolkein's work, and while he may have invented the terms as we know them today, that doesn't mean that other writers and settings can't iterate on those concepts. Goblin doesn't HAVE to mean "ugly elf" in every setting that includes goblins.

[@StarlasAiko]

@@screamingcactus1753 "Goblin" meaning "ugly elf" is not an Tolkienism, it is east European folklore, I just can't remember if it was Baltic or Slavic.

[@lunarAureola]

@@StarlasAiko i dont know where you get this etymology of the word "goblin" from, but if you google it you can find that "goblin" either comes ultimately from Ancient Greek κόβαλος (kobalos) meaning something like "rogue", or the word "goblin" might be related to the word "kobold" (a type of household spirits in German folklore) which could originally mean something along the lines of a "master of the house", or the word could trace to the roots of koben "pigsty" and hold "stall spirit" and also- goblins absolutely dont need to be evil or malicious just because Tolkien said so. and also also, Tolkien didnt "invent" the word "orc", he just reappropriated the already existent word for his story, the word itself has its real-life etymology and history

[@chickensky1121]

One thing I hate about the portrayal of fantasy races in stories (particularly D&D, I'm sure there are exceptions) is that everything seems to be a variant of humans physically. I don't just mean elves, dwarves, and orcs; D&D's ANGELS, literally cosmic beings, look way more like humans than any other race, unless there are pointy-eared Angels I'm not aware of. Giants and other 'humanoid-adjacent' creatures follow similar patterns (although I guess the 3.5e MM depictions of Fire and Frost Giants could be argued to resemble dwarves). Maybe 'hate' is an exaggeration in this case, it doesn't interfere with my ability to enjoy the game, but it does nag me when I'm worldbuilding for my own stories.

[@heitorpedrodegodoi5646]

Probably because its hard to imagine a inteligent race that inst humanoid

[@l3gend576]

Oh and Angels look humanoid bc they’re the agents of the gods of the humanoid races and are interacting with primarily humanoids what else would they appear as?

[@arandomzoomer4837]

I think it's forgivable and even somewhat cool for fantasy but its extraordinarily lazy for science fiction. There's no way a sentient species would evolve separately to look like a human.

[@chickensky1121]

@@l3gend576 I dunno. Elves, dwarves, any of the other fantasy races that are SUPPOSEDLY way older and more prominent than human beings. Again, I ask, have you seen a D&D Angel with pointy ears?

[@heitorpedrodegodoi5646]

@@l3gend576 Biblicaly accurate angels my boy.

[@evilmurlock]

Whenever I think about what makes humans special or diferent or where they have the advantage I always come back to the description of a human in dwarf fortress: "A medium sized creature prone to great ambition" Its short, sweet and to the point. Doesnt fav over any human strenght, nor does it overgeneralize humanity, as it only says "prone". I also like the humans are great diplomats angle, that is seen a lot in fiction with star trek, wars, gate, and many others. Cool analisis.

[@teyrncousland7152]

I was raised with myths of heroes fighting monsters. One of the most attractive narratives is “human vs monster” or “humans vs the supernatural “. Stories about how humans dominated a world full of fantasy races never get old.

[@Chaosmancer7]

Well... they might occasionally get old. We humans like variety, not monotony

[@teyrncousland7152]

@@Chaosmancer7 Bear in mind that these tropes go as far back as antiquity.

[@Chaosmancer7]

@teyrncousland7152 Yes, and? I'm not saying they are bad tropes, just that sometimes we want something else. If "but it is a really old story" was enough to prevent us from doing things differently, literature would have gotten very boring, very fast

[@filiprohn1643]

​@@Chaosmancer7Bold take. Our preferences and conceptions of beauty are firmly grounded in our pattern recognition skills. While we like expanding our horizons, some things stay with us. The hero journey is the classic, reaching antiquity. Now we just like to sprinkle it with space and lasers because our horizons have broadened to include those ideas. But the stories we tell are made with the sames patterns that were with us thousands of years ago.

[@Chaosmancer7]

@filiprohn1643 Fair enough point, but nothing in the Hero's journey says that it must be a human hero. And I have in fact read a few stories that do not feature humans, nor humans defeating monsters. Yes, the tale of a human hero is old, and very good, but nothing says we can't get a bit bored of it and occasionally seek non-human heroes in non-human societies.

[@spartanalex9006]

Oddly similarly, I had a fantasy project where the Human Civilization was basically the Cossacks. Semi nomadic , elite horse warriors living out on the South Eastern Step. Using guns and swords traded from the Dwarves in exchange for protecting their trade routes.

[@Miklosh.Prostoi]

Looks like Steppe Civilization, how Goktyurkic kaganate

[@pedronobre9833]

The "Adaptability" part, I believe, could use a small addition: Age. You see, children can learn new skills and languages quite quickly. However, as they get older and more set in their ways, this becomes harder and harder. A Software Engineer needs to work even harder to learn the new codes that appear and hope they're not left behind. Learning a new language becomes harder when you've only spoken your mother tongue for 40 years. Now, imagine this with the long-lived races. Would an elf that has learned and mastered a certain type of smithing for 400 years be able to quickly switch to a new type that was recently discovered and is more efficient, producing better steel? And what about their disciples? What for us would be a generational tradition spanning 7 generations might just be a living elf's grandpa who taught them. It would all be so stagnant, so unchanging. How could they ever hope to match the quick-paced, crushing competition and innovation of the humans' work?

[@clayxros576]

I agree, but we need to rephrase the nature of the stagnation. Long lived isolationist species like Elves wouldnt likely be slow on the uptake when they learn of new techniques. However, actually hearing about them is the primary hurdle. What i mean is that an elven master would be working on a 10 year project regularly, likely very rarely conferring with others during the process. As they continue making masterworks, they naturally miss out on new discoveries since they are literally committed to an old form. Combine this with information VERY slowly reaching elven cities, and by the time an elven master learns about Steel, the humans are mass producing huge varieties of steel, while the elven master needs to both learn the process and figure out how they can USE the process. The stagnation isnt due to the individuals being stagnant, its moreso due to how little they gain detailed information from other races. And thats just from them not caring. Couple that with Humans or Gnomes actively sabotaging their data streams, and those old races are actually at a pretty severe disadvantage. BUT in the same vein, this could be why those masters start leaving. They want to keep up and get on the bleeding edge, but its impossible in their home societies. So they leave, basically becoming literal traitors of their home nation, and planting themselves in guilds. And as those human craft guilds are enriched by rapidly growing Grandmasters, those old cities begin to fall apart and grow weak. Elves become a powerful minority rapidly losing population, an old race of masters with no culture of their own anymore. And as their slow breeding couples with their now scattered population, the old nations simply dissolve.

[@cubaj8723]

I think my favorite fantasy setting, Warhammer Fantasy, actually solves this question pretty well. In the main continent where the story takes place, the Old World, humans only rose to prominence after a Great War between the Dwarfen and Elven Empires. The Dwarfs drove the elves back to their island, with the exception of a few of the deep forests and, in their weakened state, were set upon by Orcs, Goblins, and Skaven, the Ratmen. In this time humans moved in to the now unoccupied plains, forests and hills and one of the tribes formed an alliance with the dwarfs that has lasted for more than 2 and a half thousand years. The Elves and Dwarfs were too weakened by this fight to oust the humans, and the Orcs were defeated in a great battle that ensured human dominance over their corner of the Old World. As for how humans fight in this world, they use tactics and military discipline. Unlike many other fantasy settings, the main weapons used by human armies are predominantly spears, pikes and halberds, with disciplined ranks of infantry able to overcome the physical superiority of Orcs and Beastmen.

[@ChancellorMcDermott]

They also have guns which helps massively

[@AlteredGames]

In 5e your initial statements about humans are truths, however in old school D&D humans are the masters of their environment because they have no limit on their levels (again depending the on the edition) like the demi-humans do. The reasoning is because these other races are on their way out, its their last days, while we are rising in importance. These concepts are totally lost on the modern gamer, however, due to the fact the system informs what the reality of the world is.

[@almitrahopkins1873]

That’s why elves look down their noses at dwarves and humans. Evan a human is like a goblin to an elf, being able to breed multiple generations of adults in the time it takes to raise one elf to adulthood. A pair of dwarves will have grandchildren before a pair of elves have an adult child. Humans will have great-great-great-grandchildren before a pair of elves have an adult offspring. Goblins could produce a seventeenth generation in the time it takes for one elf to reach adulthood.

[@albertwestbrook4813]

Also, in AD&D 1, the Enchant Item spell is 6th level; only elves and humans could reach a high enough level to cast it. Further, Permanency is 7th level, so only humans could make permanent magic items. Any other race could only manage scrolls, potions or one-time-only items. Being the sole source of permanent magic items (anything as good as a +1 dagger) makes for a dominant race in a world with magic items. At least that's how I explained the rarity of magic items in my world to my players. "All you have to do is find a 13th level magic-user, the needed rare components and a buttload of gold..."

[@AlteredGames]

@@albertwestbrook4813 No I think its totally spot on, and something I was talking about with one of my players whose a DM too. Humans burn the brightest, but their shine doesn't last very long.

[@almitrahopkins1873]

@@albertwestbrook4813 That was one of the weaknesses in 1st edition that carried over into 2nd. The only NPCs being able to make magic items made the number of them in existence too low for high fantasy games. 3e brought it down to where it needed to be to make sense. It still took using your feats, but it made minor magic items more available.

[@krinkrin5982]

@@almitrahopkins1873 I posit here that it wasn't a problem back then, because D&D used to be a survival horror game rather than a high fantasy romp.

[@camowyvern3836]

This is actually something i was thinking of for a fantasy setting, humans being rare if still a proliferant species. After all, humans can deal with most things ok, but what about the big threats, dragons, hydras, giants. creatures with such overarching strength and potentially being sentient( giants and maybe dragons, whould really cause a dramatic decrease in humanoid populations). Humans have really rarely ever had natural predators, and we often outsmart said predators when they come up. But a natural predator that is leagues stronger than you, while potentially being nearly as smart, is beutifuly terrifying.

[@tomizatko3138]

Wouldn't it be repeat of our history? Like at first there where like small tribe making cities and lot of them where wiped out and those that where sucessful like a lucky seed finding good ground to thrive in. And then wiped out some more primitive civilisations until some civilisation are left and from there the game is basically over because once humans start innovating and unlock even simple gunpowder it is over.

[@camowyvern3836]

@tomizatko3138 problem is humans getting to that stage, unlike our world humans would not be as widespread, as such creatures would dramatically outcompete humans and early gunpowder weapons(which to put into perspective guns are specifically designed to kill other humans), if humans even get that far would be mostly ineffective against giants with elephant thick skin or dragons scales, which in most settings are exceptionally tough. So that comes the fun how would humans adapt in a would unlike ours where things are not as easy as ours. We're we have natural predators that we can't simply kill off. How does human society change. It's thought-provoking and interesting.

[@youngimperialistmkii]

This trope definitely exists in the context of the slow reproduction and low populations of elves and dwarves. Doesn't really work as well in relation to races like goblins.

[@Z1gguratVert1go]

Goblins are stupid and don't cooperate well on a large scale. Goblins can survive underground better, so they have a place to hide, but on the surface they're doomed. Breeding fast is an edge but hardly the only one that counts.

[@gamervox1707]

the common goblin is dumber then humans well being cunning. human beast master that have species related to dragons, griffons, and a hold host of fantasy animal side going to over power goblins, if not keep goblins as pest control.

[@kurtacus3581]

Ive always seen it as goblins being everywhere that humans aren't. Goblins are small and generally weak so they would avoid civilizations of bigger folk where they would be subjugated or enslaved amd live in the wilds and outskirts of other populations. Could explain why goblins are a common enemy type when traveling. Its like how ants are everywhere and outnumber us but whe just dont notice because they stay out of site and live where we arent

[@thiagom8478]

Like most people I always accepted this "low reproduction trope" for elves and space-elves. Until I saw a video commenting it in channel Isaac Arthur. When you think about, there is no evolutionary reason for elves not to breed like rabbits. It is done in fantasy settings to keep elven populations low, but that's not how competition for existence works. If we have deities (what is common in fantasy) creating the intelligent species by hand and with the intent of making harmonious balance, then that's fine. If not, would be better to look for some alternative explanation for low reproduction. "They live long lives" only works when we don't look at it. Or maybe we don't have a reason for elves to be rare, and they are not rare. Elves breed as fast as orcs, 6 times more than humans, and there are a hundred trillion elves to each member of any other talking race. Elves just emigrate very often to some magical world that others cannot reach, and those we see here are visiting their families and friends during vacation.

[@goblincookie5233]

​@@thiagom8478 Except that elves start off existing *somewhere* and if there end up with too many elves in that somewhere, the elves simply go extinct because they all starve to death by their millions when they render that somewhere uninhabitable.

[@Sviorr]

There's one thing that you are overlooking. If humans are the most enduring species, they are not only the best long-distance runners, they are the best soldiers. Battles of big armies (1000+ men) last for hours and consist of long marshes mostly. Humans will outmanoeuvre dwarwes on the battlefield, human soldier will stand firmly where elven or orcish soldier will collapse from exhaustion. It will be tremendously hard to siege human cities or be besieged by humans.

[@Preppy_Delicious]

I would probably use humans as buffer states to keep the teeming hoards of monsters away from the mountain halls/forests of the world The dwarves get grain, beef, and time to muster their own warriors while the humans get the initial protection from the dwarves to develop and then a trading partner/ally during tough times. A sort of mutualistic relationship

[@ansfelt8154]

I find it best to have humans come from another world, either earth or earth-like ones, throught some portals, much like Orcs in warcraft came to Azeroth. In our homebrewed d&d setting, humans were mostly taken by pan-cosmic beings from earth.

[@Grivehn]

I did the same thing for my fantasy world. Humans are taken via portals to other planets by higher beings. Stargate series had the same idea as well, broadly speaking. Of course, Ancients who are basically humans existed way before humans ever did in other galaxies, but still. Its a solid idea overall.

[@KevinWarburton-tv2iy]

Yes, this. In my world humans are there but they are the newcomers, least established. scattered, some enslaved, a handful of human States/Statelets. The story is not about dominating colonising master humans but dealing with simultaneous dealing with be in a sense Colonists yet subject to be under thumb of non-human Species/Realms & empires. They came in Recent Wild Rifts ...Strangers in a Strange Land :)

[@DragonKingZero]

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change." - quote commonly (mis)attributed to Charles Darwin

[@darkranger116]

I've always thought Tolkien's "answer" to this felt the most realistic, with humans being "the large ones" in comparison to most other races, to the point where there's an entire sub-plot of the evil faction making a breed of orc thats actually as big and strong as humans to have a better chance at fighting them. Speaking to the old typical races and how each one correlates to each Stat, I usually go with the following.. Strength (Orc) Dexterity (Halfling) Constitution (Human) Intelligence (Elf) Wisdom (Dwarf) Charisma (Gnome). And the reason for the delineation between Con/Wis and Humans/Dwarves is the following, Dwarves already have an increase to their average HP pool over other races, and the usual poison/magic resistances ontop of it all. They live for a long time, but also more specifically, they exist mentally at a speed that's perfect for internalizing data and reflecting it outwards as Wisdom. Human's on the other hand, while not being as strong as Orcs on average, are height and width wise just as large, if not larger *eats another puff pastry* A human can get hit by almost anything, and it will probably survive. Their save bonus effects ANYTHING that targets Constitution. THATS the bonus we get for waiting 9 months for a baby, and then another 16-18 years before they can even reliably hold a weapon and shoot/impale something on the field of battle. We may not always land our shots, or get it right the first time, but when the dust settles, there's *always* some humans left holding the flag with reloaded weapons.

[@shroomian2739]

I’d swap humans and dwarves. Humans are generally more adaptable, and typically are seen as superior in terms of surviving in the wild, seeing things/detecting lies, and domesticating animals; all of which are wisdom related skills. Dwarves, on the other hand, are built like barrels an can work stone and steel for hours on end, indicating high constitution.

[@darkranger116]

@@shroomian2739 The issue I have with that typical approach is that Surviving in the wild, seeing things/detecting lies, and domesticating animals are all factors and aspects of creating a civilization. Every race has to hone these aspects in order to leave the Tool Age and move into the Agriculture Era with cities. The main reason for giving Dwarves Wisdom is because Dwarves are frequently cited as reaching "normal human maturity" at the age of 50+ by the standards of a typical D&D setting. 50 years. Five entire decades to accumulate Wisdom and lessons, and they're still only a "kid". That HAS to grant some inherent passive Wisdom advantage (while the Elves in contrast, take the Intelligence bonus) Humans, on the other hand are very tall and wide. And we have a rather high volume of blood in our bodies, giving us a large window of survival in worst case scenarios. Dwarves have higher HP on average, can resist magic and poison, but humans can roll Con saves vs almost everything in the entire book. Its my way of trying to exemplify the Human ability to live anywhere. The fact that we HAVE a Con save, WITHOUT it being specialized, IS the bonus.

[@mateuszosuch6267]

@@darkranger116 Yes, but doing so you actually giving dwarves and elves benefits of two characteristics, and you are treating traits that should be asssociated with each other as separate. What if poison and magic resistance of dwarves isn't despite their CON effectivenes, but because of that? IE. so adapt at constitution that it propagates to other skills. The same goes for halflings - they have nimbleness that can be seen as extension/derivative of their DEX bonus Orcs - better crits and attact at death can be seen as deribatives of strength Gnomes are trickier and but their treat can be seen as "soo good at presence the world, that world has issues to influence them" That leaves us with humans and elfes, and we go into what is intelligence, and what is wisdom in d&d. It doesn't help that elves have dexterity bonus instead if wisdom, but they are adapt at skills that could be seen as derived from getting insight, and noticing things - they are harder to be charmed, and they have native Perception bonus (which is derivative of Wisdom) - this basically creates them as long living, hard anchors in the world, that can't be easily influenced and who are getting more, and more experience in the world, the longer they live. And finally we have humans , the jack of all trades in d&d, the +1 to everything, or +1 to two ability scores, or one skill or feat. But why? And it's my proposition that because they are good at sharing knowledge, that they (even stupidest ones ), have innate ability to learn, and share discoveries - the INT score. But not so much in int per se, but creating those INT based bonuses. So if we are to fix one core race to one ability score, I would personally give humans INT, elves WIS, Dvarwes CON, and in the rest we are in agreement. But if I am to make changes as i see fit, I would split this, so humans can stay as they are, and all races have innate +1 to desired score, and +1 based on origin (basically backstory) so that each race will be more prone to variance between individuals (and players have at least reason to think of backstory). EDIT: missed "as separate" in the first sentence

[@darkranger116]

@@mateuszosuch6267 "Yes, but doing so you actually giving dwarves and elves benefits of two characteristics, and you are treating traits that should be associated with each other as separate. " Im having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say. The entire excessive is to give races the benefit of one of the attribute characteristics. And Wisdom is specifically separated form Intelligence to diversify character creation in D&D. Im a bit confused on what your pretextual argument is.

[@mateuszosuch6267]

@@darkranger116 Ok, so in my opinion you are splitting the ability score bonuses and perceived "excellence" of a race in one factor as a separate aspect from other bonuses and traits so: Higher HP overall for dwarves, and resistances are in your argument helping dwarf be dwarf as we see it despite it being (in your suggestion) attributed WIS instead of CON. I am saying that we should see it as they are better at CON generally so they have those additional bonuses. Also 50 years of learning can mean also that one is terrible at learning so he must to learn lessons many times. Which is kinda matching stereotypical dwarvish stubborness. Also I've tried to match the standard D&D WIS/INT split in my reasoning (WIS being general knowledge around the world, and gathered experience and knowledge of self and INT being ability to learn more or less abstract knowledge and sheer "brain power").

[@torva360]

Now I'm just imagining a scenario like Europeans vs the Native Americans, but it's elves exploring a new land filled with humans and their pet wolves, who stalk around and strike when the elves least expect, then run across the plains and refuse to be caught.

[@timogul]

It would be more apt if the elves were the native population being invaded by the humans.

[@BloodwyrmWildheart]

@@timogul Warhammer would like a word.

[@torva360]

@@timogul The core idea is that the elves would be more advanced and whatnot and see the humans as "savages" while getting raided by them for invading.

[@yuin3320]

Personally I think Dwarves would be a better fit, since the way I've seen elves most portrayed is with some aspect of harmony or synthesis with nature, while dwarves surround themselves with artifice and always seem to hold the ability of workers and crafters to reshape their environment in immense regard. Similar could be said for gnomes, too. It also has the happy accident of playing in well with how often malnourished the Brits were at the time due to overpopulation, resulting in smaller frames. Then again that might be one of those historical myths from schools that didn't know better, so I could be way off on that.

[@almitrahopkins1873]

A closer comparison would be mongols and Turks against the remnants of the Roman Empire, with the elves being the Romans. Although it would be more like the Dwarves were the Romans and the elves were the Greeks. The European vs Native Americans would be more like the humans vs goblins.

[@worldbigfootcentral3933]

In my campaign world, the elves have ENCOURAGED very aggressive human allies to settle AROUND their area. The elves use them for a buffer zone to stop, or at least slow down, orc invasions, so the Elves don't have to bother fighting the orcs most of the time.

[@Goatknyght]

Why don't humans attack the elves?

[@Illianor123]

The large stamina could be used in a few ways. Battle with the Elves? Elves dominate for about two hours, then tire out and expect the battle to end, or that they will be ready to retreat. Meanwhile the Humans are ready to go for the second half, starting now to dominant the elves or chase them down if flee. Against dwarves they can consistently harry them and retreat, they can engage in grinds battles if needed then fall back.

[@jamestitus472]

Wow that's exactly where humans originate in my setting. I mean, now they're dominant due to their mastery of the sea and how they've united near globally, but they originate exactly that way on one continent.

[@abadidea5984]

I feel like the most obvious reason why humans are so abundant, or at least so focused upon in fantasy stories is because it frames a perfect underdog narrative. Humans are objectively weaker and disadvantaged compared to other races, but that's also why their heroes are so easy to rally behind. If every odd is stacked against them, then their strength is absolute perseverance and willingness to keep standing up no matter how many times they get knocked down. But those aren't qualities that make for very strong worldbuilding, and worldbuilders don't like favoring narrative over having coherent rules and logic.

[@MauroDraco]

We should never forget how humans are good being prejudicial too! It doesn't have to be exclusive to us, but our history shows how extremely skilled we are at that.

[@timogul]

Much less so than most species though.

[@jasonfurumetarualkemisto5917]

Tfw, you're in a Racism competition and your opponents are Elves and Dwarves.

[@n0vitski]

I mean, modern western hemisphere humans are masochistically self-flaggelating and oikophobic to the degree that borders on suicidal, which you have just demonstrated.

[@MauroDraco]

@@jasonfurumetarualkemisto5917 as they are written by Earth humans... Even then, this depends on each fictional world and the Era it describes. Early elves of the Witcher world were open and accommodative towards humans. They taught them magic. Think about trusting outsiders! And how did humans rewarded the elves (and dwarves)? By obliterating their societies and colonizing the survivors... Human aggression and prejudice often is given as a big reason to why longer lived species or more ancient societies are wary or contemptuous of humans...

[@MauroDraco]

@@timogul this depends a lot.

[@irtehdar2446]

In my opinion the technology should largely be indistinguishable between cultures. There's a limit to how long you can watch those elven balistae before you figure out how to replicate it. Doesn't matter if I'm using lower quality metal for the tip it will still poke a similar hole. Any intelligent species would be able to copy each other's tech, tactics and fighting style. Us being "middle of the pack" just means we use different tricks against different opponents. When the Orcs are coming we employ elven derived strategies and when the time comes that we get up close and personal with Elves we dig deep into that bag of brute force called "Orcish Martial Arts". Doesn't matter how much fancy elven dance fighting you know when there's 250 pounds of pissed off barbarian with steel gauntlets on-top of you.

[@xhagast]

D&D Elves MAY be more fragile than a human. Tolkien's Elves went hand to hand with Balroqs. And they also ran fast.

[@Zanatos42]

D&d actually answers this question by humans being the best at magic. Faerun and Athas demonstrate this. Additionally only humans can obtain truly high level, in older editions, most races couldn't get beyond 12th-ish level (barring a few very exceptional individuals)

[@morrigankasa570]

For the long-distance running thing & other points you made it depends on fantasy setting.

[@Bysthedragon]

One of the reasons I enjoy the Wings of Fire Series. It's a Fantasy world from the perspective of Dragons. There are Humans which the Dragons call "Scavengers" that exist in this world but they don't see them as anything more than a clever animal like a Monkey or a Crow. Apparently humans used to have a society in this world but then something called "The Scorching" happened and now they just live in simple hidden villages while the Dragons have Kingdoms

[@Bighansen1981]

I believe its also important to look at the human desire to expand. In most fantasy settings dwarves and elves are isolationist. they stay in their lane as it were, probably because every death is so impacted. Humans (and greenskins) don't have that problem, so we make excellent explorers. From there, we are also more likely to become the settings best navigators/sailors. We then have the luxury of spreading and settling islands, and in several centuries of trade, we catch up. The elves are blown away by these rsft builders who start building comparable ships of the line in one elven generation, and we use naval superiority to hold our own.

[@williansnobre]

"Should humans even exist" sounds like Elven propaganda, the kind of stuff humans would go to war for

[@jonathanshaver5310]

I'm reminded a personal homebrew setting - humans actually do have an odd advantage over the other races. Humans are the only ones to produce ghosts, undead, and the like. And they're the only ones that have the magic to safely and quickly deal with them. So the other races run into the problem of "if we kill them all today, there is a decent chance they'll get back up tonight to continue fighting, unless they combine to form something worse." Then an elves decide to just use the humans as a buffer against the elves most frightening enemy, the orcs.

[@azuriel9292]

its funny how close this is to a campaign i'm running, in which humans are mostly messengers and diplomats, where there is guilds that make use of the half-human trait to have a better chance at surviving in different regions. there are almost no settlements of just humans, but rather they are mixxed in with each other folk. There is also the custom of never shooting a lone human since they are almost always messengers, politicians or are delivering something. the only different thing i did was i used human faith and search for purpose to make them pretty much turbo clerics, the only pure-human settlements are places of worship and cults, that are protected by their deities

[@Tmanowns]

I once had a setting I was working on that was a world that had been fought over by dragons, giants, and fae for thousands of years, in this world, they have this war waging across tons of worlds, so their labor force and meatshields are dragonborn, dwarves, and elves, respectively. Eventually, the masters left, but their creations remained. Humans simply didnt exist in this world, until one day, an entire human civilization invades through a portal behind the front lines in the heart of the high elf empire, utterly destroying their supply lines, and catching them horribly off-guard. It took a while, but eventually the other races had a ceasefire, and a new status quo was created.

[@StrewthStoatPirate]

Steven Brust's Dragaera setting is Elf-dominant with an oppressed human underclass. More generally the question of 'why does one race not dominate over time' applies to any setting with multiple types of sapients even if you remove humans from the equation.

[@silverjohn6037]

One point you didn't account for in the traditional skills of different fantasy races was sailing. They may have mer-people in different fantasy settings and Tolkien had the elves leave Middle Earth by ships but humans tend to be the only people who use ships for trade, war and fishing. Trade has a huge impact on cultures by giving them access to new ideas and technologies. The reason humans might dominate is simply because they have access to a wider variety of magic and technology than the other races that gives them advantages over the more specialized races.

[@Anyone00TZ]

For a video idea since the 5E variant human was brought up: what effects if even commoners had the magic initiate feat have on a civilization? More specifically having wizard as the the class with the two cantrips being mold earth, mending, and the first level spell depending on the role they grow up expecting to fill. Mold Earth - plow fields, dig irrigation channels, erected earthen fornications, etc. much more easily (shovel and picks and the like would still need to be used for stones and hard packed earth) Mending - repair tools and mend clothing with only basic materials; this could allow the average population to have hard sole boots instead of the leather sock type foot ware so people walk like modern peoples. As for the first level spell: magic missile would make it easy to bring a varmint home for the stew pot every day; unseen servant could make domestic duties easier; etc.

[@xianxiaemperor1438]

I wished more Mythical Human races were featured in Fantasy tbh like Abarimons, the Pandi, Panottis, etc...

[@tinnasell4161]

One person's strength is a bunch of good friends. Who needs magic, tools and physical advantages if you can pack bond with an elf, dwarfs and goblins. Also, I've always been saying: humanity's greatest strengths are stupidity and, by extension, unpredictability, as well as madness.

[@brandondoane332]

The only way I'm able to rationalize humans in dnd type fantasy is that the gods just like us for some reason lol.

[@lightsdevil]

The pantheon's most special little guys.

[@Afronautsays]

You have this miraculous ability to present a fairly interesting topic and then present even more interesting perspectives.

[@KingOpenReview]

One thing you could do is say "fuck it" and just give humans a fantasy trait. For one of my worlds, I made them have a weird interaction with magic that made it so outside sources of magic they come in contact with became more volatile and dangerous, making them inherently good at mass destruction. I portrayed my humans as kind of scary when in a world full of magic and magical creatures.

[@StonedPriest]

I love that this channel keeps asking the question is I've been asking myself as a fantasy writer. I was just thinking through this kind of idea the other day.

[@IdoitArt]

I now would like to know how a human would function in a Heavy magic based world like would they still be generalist even in magic or will they specialized in type of magic similar to how dwarf specialized in earth magic and elf with nature magic would love to see your opinion on this

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

If magic has the same weakness in are real world in myth. Certain metal would be used to counter magic like iron, steel and adamantite would be resistant and weaken magic. But certain are in tune with magic like Thokcha is to be a mythical magic that has been used to create Magical items. Or you can go with other mythical examples that humans created other forms of power like spiritualism, psionic, auris/aura/chi pretty much the same thing then alchemy mystical science like elixirs, potions, automatons, philosopher stone like battery, homunculi, punk technology and alchemy metal like Orichalcum. Or spiritual metal like Hihi'irokane

[@thisisnotaustin1]

i found it fun to give humans in my own fantasy setting some fantasy traits of their own. in my setting, all races have some form of natural magic, and for humans, that magic is empathy. humans are naturally charismatic and have the ability to relate to other races better than others. they can also crossbreed more easily, making the human gene pool incredibly varied. many humans are actually hybrids and have minor physical quirks, like vestigial horns or flowers growing in their hair. their empathy even allows them to find friendship in animals; keeping pets is a distinctly human practice that other races see as eccentric.

[@Chaosmancer7]

Focusing on human endurance is good, but usually Dwarves and orcs are also depicted with superhuman endurance.

[@herokid789]

i kind get the books where exceptional humans build a kingdom by fighting off the other races who got lazy or ( mostly elves and drwarfs) decided that they had perfected their craft only to see a human do something so stupid it works

[@tomfoolery-4444]

I want to see more stories like Wings of Fire, where humans are little more than pesky mice to the characters

[@tomizatko3138]

I think in reality humans would have traveled around the world just the same as our world and set up a lot of civilisations which most would be wiped out and those that survive because enviroment or other factor will adapt and advance their technology and eventually in decades or centuries they will reach gunpowder and even modern weapons and start to expand their territories and that they all the wings of fire dragons will know that their days are numbered.

[@iampierce7474]

I always go with the idea that humans are the only ones with adrenaline

[@EnzoVinZ]

It depends on the lore. I once read a fantasy novel where human is the elder race -- when human becomes highly intelligent, they evolve to elves, while mountain and cave dwelling humans becomes the dwarves -- then all other races stems from that (example; orcs are corrupted humans, trolls are corrupted elves, and goblins are corrupted dwarves, etc.) So in this fantasy world, humans are necessary. DnD limits the scope of fantasy and that's not a good thing.

[@renealbrechtsen9743]

What I'm getting out of all these "don't add x to your world", "should x even be in your world", etc, is that we just shouldn't add anything at all to our world. 😅

[@Iamjordangreen]

I actually just wrote my version of humans for my next dnd campaign. My reason for them being prominent is their quicker learning. While longer lived species may master a skill over the course of hundred of years, humans simply learn faster. I even had them be the most prominent race for intermingling with other races. None of my species look like humans but bearded, short, etc. Because of this, I gave them a unique ability to also learn certain ancestral traits of other species. Elves in my world have an ability to dream of their ancestors whilst in a trance, my world's humans can learn this ability.

[@kwagmeijer26]

"we are probably the first and only creature to make tools that have the sole purpose of making it easier to make different tools" I love this line. Everyone talks about "tool use" as a major milestone, but making tools to make tools is another major step I never hear anyone talk about.

[@Grimmance]

I would think being able to start working in a field by age 5 would be factored in. Or the fact that we "don't have to" spend decades learning our trade from a master, meaning more flexibility in tasks. Also older people are generally inflexible.

[@juanisol8275]

Personally, that is one of the biggest critical points that I always summarized in my head, frankly one of the traits to consider of Evolutionary Adaptability, especially between races (humanoid representations) and species (Symbolic Animalistic Appearance or Significant Elemental Entities). How we attribute to representing the various ideological complexities, from the conceptualization of recognizable folkloric characters to reviewing facts of biological archetypes unknown until now...

[@benguerne367]

Love this video, it's making me reconsider my world a bit, but also making me realize that I've unconsciously already created explanations as to why humans are as spread out as they are which is very cool

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

You can say there was pangea but a global tragedy split the nation. So the difference Pantheon of human gods created territory and have influenced each generation's appearance of humans to make them look closer to their God appearance. That would also mean Pantheon would have influence of land, culture, entity, laws, behavior, environment, religion, nation, race, ecosystem, society, currency, offering, fauna and Flora.

[@user-sm4mi8ug9q]

​@@majesticgothitelle1802this could also insinuate that the gods were the ones who split the pangea and that the tragedy was an inside job that was meant to help each god claim an agreed upon amount of power and control over theyr chunk of land and the people who worship em.

[@majesticgothitelle1802]

@@user-sm4mi8ug9q you got your fantasy world back stories with why they are so many different intelligence species and races. Along with so many different cultures, traditions, belief, ecosystem, rules, laws, language, fashion, food, and so on. Pocket Pantheon with different intelligence species and races like goblin, ogres and so on. Why are Europeans different from Celtic, Greek and Norse phantom. Africa with Axumite, Dahomean, Guanche, Igbo, Nubian, San, Serer, Yoruba and Zulu pantheon.

[@BKPrice]

I think it's important to note that fantasy humans aren't Earth humans. They don't have to have the same limitations that we do. Not being naturally magical could make them more resistant to magical influence. They can have qualities that Earth humans don't have due to the different environment they exist in, qualities that make them more competitive in general.

[@ideamaster11]

Consider a divergent theory on fantasy races: what if humans were the primal race, and others, excluding animal races, descended from them? For instance, Furbolgs might be a feywild-twisted iteration of the original human form. The feywild's time distortions could account for elves' accelerated development. This theory harmonizes with the humanoid category, the compatibility of humans with various races, and the prevalence of humans in fantasy worlds.

[@Drejzer]

Some settings don't have humans at all (like Beszamel, where there are halflings, elves, dwarves, Orcs from the classics as well as sentient cookware and devourers (extreme omnivore humanoids, illustrations kinda resemble the fish alien from Ben10, but without the fishyness))

[@ethanstaaf404]

I think the strength of man is most exemplary in LOTR, its courage and the will to fight against hopeless odds. Take boromir. He is the only human in the fellowship. When he reaches for the ring, he makes his intentions clear, “i only ask for the strength to protect my people”, his people who were being surrounded and slaughtered by an overwhelming foe. Meanwhile these fantastical godlike beings like galadriel and gandalf openly admit they would use the power for evil and to dominate. Boromir and faramir just want to use the ring to save their kingdom. And note how the kingdoms of man come together for the last stand while the elves flee to the west and (most of) the dwarves hide in their hills. It was the armies of man that marched on the black gates of mordor, facing certain defeat, not even knowing if frodo was still alive. It was aragorn who leads the charge.

[@namelessdude207]

Historically the specialist(níche) specieses always die out, whenever a great catastrophe happens, while alrounders have a higher survival chance in great environmental shifts. In other words Humans excell in surviving

[@DaveyDAKFAE]

I love this channel; I'm so glad I discovered your work. Woefully few GMs critically examine their worlds and their implications, and I've found a kindred soul here. Thank you for all the great content you make!

[@lukekebell3146]

In most fantasy humans are indeed surpassed in birth rate by the likes of Goblins or Lizardfolk, but we have 2 things on our side. The first thing is these creatures are often depicted as lacking high maternal benefits, the children that survive were the strongest or the luckiest. While Humans will mostly dedicate time to raising a child. 2 Humans are usualy diplomatic enough to gain the allegence of their elder kin, giving them a place in the social higherachy. When it comes to technology, humans advance better than Elves & Dwarfs because these elder races often suffer creative stagnation. Which is kind of happening yo humans right now, how many games, films, toys are being re-made every year compared to new IPs & most buildings & appliances are following a set basic ruleset when being made. We dont really innovate that much as a whole anymore compared ro the past & when we do its a bit of a risk. In most fantasy settings humans are still yoing enough to discover & invent stuff we take for granted IRL. In my personal world i have it that Elves actually kept humans as slaves, before this we were just collections of tribes & clans living in the wild. The Elves reigned over their human slaves for generations until the Dwarves gifted humanity the knowladge & technology to topple the Elven Empire. Now Humans see Dwarfs as their ancient allies & Elves as pompous a££holes. However they have also fallen into the same habits when it comes to the races of Orcs & Goblins.

[@varelmarais2222]

Ive always wanted to see a piece of media with literally no humans at all, but i know that that would be pretty crazy to attempt. I reckon I'll have to be the one to do that one day After watch edit: Y'know, the way you described the potential of humans in a fantasy world staying tribal, on the plains, etc, really reminds me particularly of Native American society. While of course we had our huge cities(Aztec, Inca, Maya, etc.), Those would simply be the pockets of large human settlement you described in a sea of tribes

[@Grivehn]

It wouldnt be hard to do if you still had humanoid races. Elf, dwarf, beastfolk, etc. However, to have a setting where every race is alien, would require a lot of thought... and might not be particularly successful on a human planet if its goal is to garner fame and money. As there would be no easy self-insert or relatability. There are time periods in a few franchises where humans arent much relevant yet. Warhammer fantasy has books set during the times when it was all about Elves and Dwarfs, for example. What Id be even more interested in personally is to not make humans the center of a setting, the ultimate heroes. They could be present, but not particularly successful or relevant. Or straight up nothing but villains. God knows the actual human nations have been nothing but antagonistic throughout thousands of years. It would be hella easy to present humanity as villains... just might not sit too well with the human readers, just like not having humans at all wouldnt.

[@BloodwyrmWildheart]

"Ive always wanted to see a piece of media with literally no humans at all, but i know that that would be pretty crazy to attempt." Redwall says hi.

[@caimanthechimera679]

The Dark Crystal, Bionicle, Mixels (unless you count the occasional human skull, disembodied body part and/or that one time they mentioned Einstein by name.), and probably some others I can’t think of off the top of my head right now: “Allow us to introduce ourselves”

[@smergthedargon8974]

Xenofiction is what you're interested in. Try Golden Treasure: The Great Green - it does have humans in it, but the focus of almost all the game is on the perspective of you, a dragon, and the animals within the world.

[@alanfriesen9837]

I think the proliferation of humans makes sense in a world where humans do the majority of the farming. Dwarves certainly need someone to farm for them and the same might be said of elves if they prefer both dense forest and large quantities of wine. Even orcs might well require humans for food production. No other group appears to do a lot of large scale farming. Also, cities that thrive on agricultural distribution tend to show up at water junctions where watercraft can load and unload cargoes. Mountain rivers are usually non-navigable. Some arboreal river harbors would probably exist, but a great many would pop up on the plains where grain can be brought in on wagons.

[@benkafka3653]

In a setting I’m working on, there are 2 main landmasses. Your orcs, elves, dwarves, etc, live in peace on one, larger island in peace. All of their technological advancements go to quality of life, scholarship, etc. the second, smaller landmass, is inhabited by humans. Human nations were at war for decades, before uniting. Because of this, Humanity has adapted to war. While the people on island one use will use weapons to hunt, maybe fend off bandits, with no standing armies, humanity is a war culture. They’ve invented the flintlock, have standing armies, etc TLDR: Humans do war better than everyone else

[@greedtheron8362]

One way I've seen this accomplished is in a LitRPG with a ton of various beast/monster races where humans were generally seen as being near the bottom of the food chain, just above goblins. Everything sentient(and some non-sentient things) has their power expressed in levels, and the various beast/monster races get a lot bigger stat boosts for their monster levels, but that also takes up limited level slots you can have. For example, a 1st level Tiger-kin/1st level fighter would beat a 2nd level human fighter, but a level 20 human fighter would beat a 1st Tiger-kin/19th fighter multi-class, and the human would have an easier time getting there. So humans have their niche(as slaves, mostly) because they're seen as so much easier to train for specialty rolls.

[@TheBrute72]

You literally defeated your own argument. If you set the stage up like you have, it's inevitable that humanity becomes the most dominant force in any fantasy setting.

[@CooperAATE]

Yeah, I got that exact same vibe. Humans, as he described, are masters of the long game.

[@AdamTehranchiYT]

Personally I take the opinion that 1) there's literally enough space for everything in the manuals idk perhaps a Dyson Sphere or something or 2) that whatever you chose in the manual exists and maybe whatever one would need to support it. You can run a DnD campaign without any other sapient species if you want.

[@esbeng.s.a9761]

If elf, dwarf, orcs, goblins and humans all can create offspring with each other that is also fertile, they would all belong to the same species.

[@MauroDraco]

According to high school biology, yes. But there are more useful and used species definitions in biology that to not rely on this postulate. The conversation goes much deeper than mere reproduction barriers (and which kinds of such barriers at that).

[@zooker7938]

This is really interesting! I don't think most fantasy material properly interrogates what makes humans special. In my setting, humans were the only intelligent creature to evolve naturally, and most other creatures (elves, dwarves, etc.) were created afterwards in divine 'genesis events' using humans as the template. Humans were already well established at this point, and so pushed the newer races who lacked history to be specialised - turning the 'generalist' argument on its head. However as the world becomes more integrated, humans are starting to get worried that some other of the thirty or so races will supplant them. Already in my Africa/South America continent, a catastrophic genesis event took place about 200 years ago that created most of the beastfolk (tabaxi, minotaurs, etc), which overwhelmed the established humans and caused many humans to flee and establish exclaves and diaspora.

[@MauroDraco]

Interesting that you'd bring up human endurance specialization. Regarding other fantasy species, it is very speculative or questionable how uniquely human such a trait would or could be. Your arguments for other classical humanoids mostly hold, but elves could very easily surpass humans in that as well. It all come downs too how much endowed their booties are... specially if their are not heavy framed. Not to mention that flying species might easily overcome us in long distance locomotion too. Beside those considerations, it is worth mentioning that humans being very generalists, relatively fast reproducing and very ambitious (not to say easily xenophobic and destructive/not wise). they could have bigger populations that are full of highly or over specialized, to the point they could, as a group, compete with the strengths or other species. A kind of "cultural endurance running" of sorts. Particularly if they are over aggressive and untrusting. This and your take reminded me of the stories on the Human Dominion of the Mirror Universe in Star Trek. My take above being nearer to it and yours of human servants and population replenishment stocks opposing it. Interesting! In Lantartia non humans may traditionally adjectivize something as being "human" when it is extremely selfless or extremely selfish or traitorous. The selfless side of it being veeeeeeery rare.

[@georgethompson1460]

If you look back at Human archeology compared to Neanderthals humans were often found in larger groups and more pro-social; which lead to them being able to outcompete the otherwise stronger Neanderthals for land. So sociality and willingness to form larger groups and organize more effectively could be an aspect. Humans forming large cities and towns while Elves only forming small villages at most and Orcs being entirely focused around smallish clans.

[@MauroDraco]

@@georgethompson1460 Good point!

[@TheStephenation]

This reminds me of the Garrett, P.I. series. It doesn't come up because most of the books take place within the same huge city and they're detective stories anyway, but the setting is one in which humans have been interbreeding with other races for a very long time, and in which the ancient civilizations of those other races collapsed long ago or faded from prominence. Also, humans are sort of the best at magic in that world, so they've got that going for them.

[@dangerbeans9639]

In the light novel series "Overlord" it's revealed that humanity nearly went extinct until godlike videogame characters started getting isekaid into their world and helped humanity get a foothold in the world.

[@kevinsurget8571]

Damn, that makes the grounds of a world for worldbuilding that is incredible, especially if you set it on the brink of the next era, the next great revolution where human rise against other races and finally create their first independent nation!

[@musicjax]

can you make a video on realistic cultures in fantasy? A lot of fantasy seems to have very broad views of culture where entire countries are this one monolithic cultural thing that correspond to the borders of states which is based on very modern views of culture I think and also not true at any time and any place ever. Plus this is generally only afforded to humans and the fantastical races just seem to have one overall culture. I think the second thing would be especially interesting to think about like how would elves and kobolds and stuff develop culture compared to humans? How would cross-species cultural exchange differ from real life cultural exchange?

[@steelcladCompliant]

Gotta disagree with one of your first points, being a generalist IS a strength in battle. It allows us to be ready for everything and counter anything, as long as we get to set the terms of the fight. Orcs want to fight in melee? We'll stand over there and shoot them to pieces while they approach. Elves want an archery match? Well we dont, so we will rush them and force a melee fight as soon as possible. We cant play to our strengths, but we can always play to the enemy's weaknesses

[@alyseleem2692]

It all comes down to competition. Elves and Dwarves curb Orks , Goblins and other folk with their progress, as well as each other. Due to their own roughly equivalent or faster birth rate to those two specific races, humans prosper somewhere in the middle. That's the simplest possible fantasy setting for humans you can get; they also tend to be backed with arguments of divine intervention for humans for one reason or another; all it takes is a suitably generous godly patron. There's also the question of where elves and dwarves, among other humanoid races,come from; it is entirely possible they are divergent humans themselves! After all, how else would they resemble us so much?

[@andrewmeakin324]

I've always thought that one great way to even the playing field for humans in a fantasy setting is one simple thing. Horses. Cavalry lets them match the general military strength of other fantasy races, particularly in their preferred terrain of plains. Humans might have little chance of ever overcoming the defences of Elven forests or Dwarven mines, but neither could the Elves or Dwarves hope to match the power and strategic mobility of Human cavalry in the open plains surrounding their settlements. Sure, Elves and Dwarves might have handfuls of horses or similar creatures used by messengers, adventurers and important officials, but only the Humans have whole armies of them.

[@KevinWarburton-tv2iy]

Yes there is some merit in that idea ...but it falls short in that in a history of co-existence & warfare all of the Species would soon be aware of shortcomings/shortfalls & would do their best to equalise/acquire parity or at least near-parity. Humans have lots & lots of dumb horses? ....fine, but the Elves have sentient/sapient magic-powered Unicorns in lesser numbers sure ...but each unicorn equal 5 or 10 horses. Unicorn can fire bolts of lightning from it's horn as well as use it to gore enemy horses & men. Dwarves too would develop a Cavalry ...maybe not as fast or long ranging as Humans but good enough for downhill & short distance charges riding Mountain Goats, Ponies, Dire-Wolves, Reindeer, Camels etc. Also it's never going be just one Species vs one Species. Peoples will make Alliances to offset weakness & bolster strength. Dwarves & Elves both have weakness & strengths against each other & against Humans but together they could eliminate/reduce such weaknesses. Also each Species also has possibility of hiring Human Mercenaries or having their own Human Allies. Religious conversions, Trade, Historical conquests & incorporation to Empire means each Species will have Allies, Clients, Subjects of the other Peoples. Humans of Human only Empire X are steamrollering ...until they come up against Empire Y which has Humans, Dwarves, Elves & every other Species united together. The 100 Nations of Persia just might defeat the 1 Nation of Rome :)

[@sirgideonofnir6840]

I don't think you pressed the animal husbandry enough. Beast are some of the most dangerous things to common ppl of every location. Irl if we had a need we could tame dangerous beast with enough effort. Not including magical assistance in fantasy.

[@gambitaku6179]

This is a pretty interesting video I think the implications of magic, varying special races, varing biology and socio-cultural impacts all make dnd very interesting

[@m-yday]

yeah, I agree with most commenters here. human species as a whole may be generalists, but the key things that set humans apart are their individual abilities to specialise into many different areas. And the other trope I see is that they learn at an incredible rate when compared to the other races. So tying their ability to individually specialise, and thus cover each others' weak points, plus their ability to 'keep up' with the other races by groups specialising in their niches, Humans put up a strong show in enough areas. I am also fond of the social openness idea that another commenter brought up all in all though, this topic of yours was very enlightening and brought up a great point of discussion. If we didn't consider these points laid out in my comment, I think I'd very much agree with you deeply! very well argued