Guardians = UNDERRATED vs Protoss

[@Bytewalker]

"Two mutas is like one hand clapping" - good quote right there

[@ejmoreno270]

"Bitchin" First time hearing this used outside a TV show.

[@Gloriath1]

That one plague on the nexus :D. Also, if your opponent has 70 drones in PvZ, you have 1 minute to kill him, then you're dead to the swarm flood.

[@ozar_midrashim]

If your opponent in PvZ has 70 Drones, that means he has 70 supply in workers and about 50 supply of actual army.

[@bunsofthunder9827]

I think one of the more fun things about these casts is the introduction of more of the top player scene. When the SSL brackets start, we all have a much better understanding of the competitive landscape.

[@ezpz2680]

ArtosisCasts ProtossBlasts BroodwarLasts

[@soldier22881]

nice rhymes man +1

[@Berry_Bruiser]

Bars

[@ПетърПетров-й9ф]

Ok ok I'm subscribing. Thanks for the analysis and strategy explanation Artosis. I never was a player of the game, only the campaigns. But I remember my first times watching the big kids in the neighborhood playing and just being mesmerized by the game, the hud and the unit portrait. The one eye of the overmind, strong but scary zealot and nightmarish hydralisk. I love watching pro level cuz it's like chess on 3 redbulls and 1 line of coco. I play dota and can't imagine having to move 40 units at a time plus keeping production plus scouting plus thinking what the other guy is thinking and countering his moves by the second. This is truly one of the greatest games and I'm thankful you keep on casting. Just one suggestion, maybe you can leave some empty time in some replays so it's not obvious when the game ends to keep the suspense. Also don't play starcraft Artosis, your heart won't last much longer judging by the rage compilations xD

[@michaelbird9148]

Cool to see guardians used like TvZ battlecruisers - positioning them outside a base to deny resources.

[@pricklypear6298]

Between Soma, Soulkey, and dark swarm, I'm legit scared for the future of Terran and Protoss.

[@EvanWSH]

I feel like protoss at least has tools to deal with it to a degree, reavers, storm, Dweb. what does terran do vs agressive plague + swarm lmao? un siege their tanks and lose them all?

[@rockhyrax-u5i]

@@EvanWSH not allow zerg to go hive tech

[@lsdap1969]

​@@EvanWSHmass firebats and pray

[@Pangora2]

@@EvanWSH This was actually a bit of a thing in a Nada game the other day where his tanks were mostly unsieged most of the game in most combats so they could dodge spells.

[@EvanWSH]

@rockhyrax-u5i I wish this wasn't probably the only/best answer lol. But it probably is. Imagine a world where firebats didn't get instantly ruined by plague/lurkers

[@gregjuva]

I have always loved the guardian as a unit

[@Demirbaykus]

Another dinner, another amazing cast. Enjoying them so so much so far. Thank you very much RT

[@buneuocheng678]

What a great match up! Love watching some guardians played in the mix.

[@deavenhendrix]

Hope all is well on the toilet there bud

[@ImOnTheThrone13]

Thanks for the well wishes.

[@mrsupa444]

Thanks! Things are firm and smooth here

[@mrsupa444]

Nevermind

[@andreibarabash9701]

Toilet, that's funny.😂

[@HyperionBadger]

L M F A O You called it 😂

[@frankjin2484]

Scout, scout, scout.

[@tehvolka]

That was a really sick PvZ. Really good job by Moolso. You improved your PvZ a lot RT!

[@ertert4tetert]

Actually a good position to make scouts

[@Broockle]

vs the Guardians you mean? Would they deal with them better than Corsairs?

[@tehvolka]

Yes, Guardians have 2 base armor so one Corsair tickles them. One scout would have killed the Guardians fairly quickly. However I think Soma had a bunch of Mutas as well, so it shouldn't have worked. This is why I think always having a fleet of Corsairs even in late game is essential.

[@ej____________]

Moolso was on only 3 gases. Soma went guardians because 3 gas Protoss that had lost all their stargate units cannot deal with it without making big sacrafices somewhere else. You can't afford to make scouts on just 3 gases while playing vs a 5 base zerg

[@Junglej0hn]

Guardians are good! Ultras are good! They only have one short coming... none of them are defilers...

[@ghost-user559]

Ultras are kind of bad in some ways. Damage wise they are just a tank, but it’s a tank you have to wait until late game to use, which means Protoss and Terran both have tanks the entire early and mid game. It’s really just Ultras that have upgrades and are supported by a defiler or queen. But on their own Ultras are a tank with zero range, and they are very slow. They are objectively the worst “tank” in the game, if only because they have no range, and every other race gets ranged units very early. More than one or two is definitely a different story. But one is kind of just an expensive damage sponge.

[@2639theboss]

​@@ghost-user559I see you have terrible takes throughout the whole comment section. Well done. Your friends at the broodwar reddit miss you, you should spend more time there.

[@ghost-user559]

@@2639theboss I’m not sure what’s worse, admitting that you use Reddit, or the inability to rationally express your opinion. Probably using Reddit.

[@2639theboss]

@@ghost-user559 I see your reading comprehension has failed you, but i do draw the line at accusations of using reddit, so if you re-read what i said, youll realize i never said anything about using reddit personally. Youll be surprised to know that one can be aware of something existing without using it themselves. For example, im sure you know what a book is, or a dictionary, yet clearly theyve escaped your grasp. Im not sure whats more embarrassing, thinking a core unit in pro Z play is kinda bad, or being unable to read. Considering the ogre zerg gamer memes, probably the former, because even an ogre zerg gamer knows ultras arent bad.

[@ghost-user559]

@@2639theboss The entire Hive Tech tree to get Ultra takes much longer than the Robo or Mech equivalent units, and it’s objectively better to have your strongest units earlier rather than later, and having range on those units is objectively better than having melee. I’m not really sure that can be considered controversial. Terran can go for tanks very quickly and Protoss can go for Reavers very quickly. Ultras require Lair, Queens Nest, Hive, and then Ultralisk Cavern, and upgrades to truly tank because they are so slow, and by then most of the time you should have gone Spire beforehand anyway. So many Zerg decisions are based solely around distracting the other race until they can finally field Hive Tech. Like literally most of the pro Muta Harass are to keep back counterattacks and harass long enough to get to Hive Tech. All of the other races can just immediately go for Tanks or Reavers and start dropping them, while Zerg have to go Lurker or Muta whether they want to or not just to survive long enough to use Defiler or Ultra. Zergs early game units in long games just become fodder to swarm and distract long enough for that to happen. I never once said Ultras are “bad”, but that they are the worst “tank” of the three races. They are the last race to field a tank, and it’s a tank with zero range. The number of times we see even mass Ultra get mowed down by a few tanks and upgraded Bio makes them a very situational unit. You will almost never see a game where Terran don’t go mass tank at some point, and you will rarely see a Protoss that doesn’t ever make a Reaver, but there are many games where no one ever fielded an Ultra.

[@gordontubbs]

I think this particular map is well-suited for Guardians.

[@Endlessmelody4]

Great cast! 🔥

[@Larsgman]

1:51 psychotic bloodthirsty probe living up to its reputation with that moving shot 10:41 Arty’s version of “if i was a worm, would you still love me?” But instead he’s roleplaying one of the hurt mutas talking to the other one lmao

[@cosmicfox5671]

Imagine if we saw Dark Swarm instead reduce the damage units take from ranged by 50%, instead of complete nullification?

[@dr.pastrami5272]

imagine if we saw psi storm be negated completely against burrowed units?

[@Templarfreak]

that idea of +1 worker being a much bigger gain in SC1 than in SC2 is not something i ever considered before

[@dj_koen1265]

the algorythm has betrayed me in the past 2 days, but a chill reminded me what i was missing

[@drewwalbeck6006]

Hey Artosis, we love your casts, especially all the little details. If you see an opportunity in the future, could you talk about the initial overlord scouting decisions?

[@fraginatrix]

Mutalisks are just the definition of "The Bomber WIll Always Get Through". You can kill them (sometimes), but they almost always make it to target and do damage anyway. And then when they finally can't get through, you turn them into Guardians and get bullets that can.

[@krj2009]

I''m liking these videos. Also like watching sc1 more than sc2 now, its more strategic, slower paced, smarter

[@kei4904]

Imagine one Scout against those Guardians.

[@benn1181]

Do scouts have any play? They are one of my all-time favorite units, but I've never played competitively.

[@dietermitplatten]

​@@benn1181too expensive and too slow I guess.

[@kei4904]

@@benn1181 They are almost never used in competitive play as far as I know. Too expensive, take forever to build and have terrible air to ground damage. Still, against unprotected guardians which are large units, they could be very powerful. In the page about Scouts in Liquipedia, there are links for some tournament games in which Scouts were used if you are interested.

[@ej____________]

@@benn1181 On island maps in PvZ sometimes (because the game is air-centric and you already have a fleet beacon) and sometimes in PvT when P is doing a 2 base carrier rush and gets pushed by Terran, they will make a scout or 2 to delay the T push until carriers can be made.

[@thuperman5228]

Also, Nukes = Underrated vs Protoss

[@EvanWSH]

@thuperman5228 wait till ppl see my insane Dmatrix ghost nuke drop

[@panswiata3756]

+ EMP

[@EvanWSH]

@@panswiata3756 i like the way you think

[@ghost-user559]

Nukes are just underrated in general. Who don’t they work against lol?

[@Kenshiken]

Why as toss you can't maintain at least 6 corsairs at all times? why not?

[@strawberryspeedruns8413]

Random question for toiletosis- I'm not sure if I missed an announcement, but what happened to CNSL season 8? It sounded like we were getting hype for it and then it dropped off the face of the earth. Maybe I'm under a rock.

[@cliffhuang8610]

Protoss players need to start using corsairs and punish zergs who go mutas. No top tier zergs will fly their mutas into your storms enough times for it to be a defense. Most of the game he had the economy to get two starport corsair, control the skies, and force the zerg back defensively.

[@user-wk2ei3qg8e]

I worry we might be hitting a point where smaller maps are needed to nerf zerg, but would make Terran too strong? Some map maker will figure it out I’m sure.

[@DirkyDiggz]

8:35 it really is the best [computer] game ever made!

[@iwanabana]

Speaking of buildings blinking I was SO SURE the Gateway used to blink in earlier versions of the CD ROM game while building.

[@kathorsees]

Me too! Could it be that something in the technology chain changed and caused the shimmer to go away? I don't think anyone would intentionally mess with this obscure effect if it was there. E.g., it's an effect that you can see on CRT monitors the game was designed for, but not on modern ones?

[@iCalabria]

Either im remembering wrong or something changed. I totally agree, back when i was 11 i swear i saw the dots blinking.

[@rockhyrax-u5i]

Stargate is blinking not Gateway

[@EvanWSH]

@iwanabana i have a cd with key from like 99 or 2000, i might install it later and check lol

[@ghost-user559]

@@EvanWSHlet us know

[@paulkruger7934]

Minstrel game was Zelot if I remember correctly Arty, him vs Motive

[@cl8804]

a non-trash toss--can't believe my lying eyes!!

[@cryptorage7206]

With two mutas you can double scan ARTOSIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS.

[@stefanc4520]

I could barely bring myslef to watch after that opening...letting in 3 zerglings for no reason and losing a bunch of probes WHILE YOU HAVE ZEALOTS!

[@tehvolka]

that ramp is btichen, it is not so easy to block with one probe and zealot. Probably needed another probe or two.

[@Broockle]

hard game is hard

[@D3filed7]

King Soma with another good zerg strat. I think ill try this strat tonight

[@poppy3318]

Many many years ago my brother told me 12 Guardians and 12 Mutas can beat any army. I have lived my life on this knowledge.

[@thunderstorm13]

some maelstrom and psystrom would take care of them. clear the rest up with dragoons.

[@istovall2624]

simply chills!

[@TomaszWinnicki]

How do storms work under the dark swarm?

[@tehvolka]

They work as normal, they are unafected by dark swarm

[@swampybwoy]

Cannons are just dragoons with no legs

[@juanjosecorreahurtado4359]

I don't get why but I LOVE watching zergs games even though I play terran, loving these souma games, keep it up :D

[@Avokodo]

sky and moolso have the exact same hotkey's and hotkey patterns and usage :o strange

[@youtubeviewer4472]

Silly question from a casual player, why is it a "9 gate"? The gate is on 5 o' clock on the map and 12 o'clock from his main base?

[@Vladislav888]

I'm a noob too, but I assume that 9 refers to the number of workers

[@ezzygd2521]

Comment above me is correct. It refers to him building a gate at 9 workers in the build order

[@Jmanstar171996]

i believe that was zelot vs motive on minstrel

[@davidgatten1033]

Anyone know what happened to flash?

[@luischenko]

What is a drone drill?

[@bfors8498]

Based on what I've observed watching pro level games - if you let a good Z mine from 5 bases for 5 minutes, you are dead

[@TheDartdouble05]

I’m a simple man. I see and I click

[@Broockle]

There was like 1 corsair all game. Is this normal in PvZ?

[@davidorawe3931]

If Starcraft had been patched again, do you think they would've reduced the duration of Dark Swarm like they did with Disruption Web?

[@bcisleoncool]

Duration is not the issue, the 100% immunity just simply too OP. Zerg late game damage is scary, 5 lings could down a nexus in less than 10secs.

[@ghost-user559]

@@bcisleoncoolThat applies to fully upgraded units with every races tech tree though? It’s just the nature of a late game. And Zerg objectively have the weakest units. With numbers and upgrades they can accomplish a lot, but Lings have 15 health, and do 5 damage, and hydras only do 10. Dragoons start at 20 dmg and have a rechargeable shield. If anything Dark swarm is literally the only bandaid to stop tanks, dragoon, wraith and on and on, from wiping out a mid game Zerg. Every other race has way more powerful early game units.

[@dj_koen1265]

@@ghost-user559 thats a bad take imo, and the fact that you dont even know how many hp a zergling has tells me that you probably dont know what you are talking about

[@ghost-user559]

@@dj_koen1265 Well everything except the Ling health is objectively true. Dark Swarm is a counter to the inherent weakness of early to mid Zerg units. Without it they would automatically be wiped out by most other races early to mid units. Terrans can go tank, vulture and Goliath dragoons and reavers are both more powerful than anything a Zerg can field that early and they have shields. The Lurker is really the only decent mid game Zerg unit besides the muta, and even Mutas only deal 9 dmg to the first target, wraiths deal 20. Goliaths deal 20 to air units, and 12 to ground. The biggest advantage of the muta is that it counts as “small” and that the damage obviously targets 3 units, so stacking them works wonders as we have seen. But every other race has stronger units with a 1 to 1 comparison. Without having greater numbers Zerg would just get wiped out the second Mech and Robo come out. I mean Zerg have to pay 100 gas after already spending 25 gas just to get a single Lurker, which has the same base damage as the Dragoon, which has shields and costs 50 gas, and it can also move at the same time which the Lurker cannot. Find me a 1 to 1 where a Zerg unit early to mid game has more health or damage than the equivalent from another race? Hive tech is really the biggest transition that Zerg makes if they can last that long. Before that they rely on numbers to make up for their weaker units.

[@Gwanzan3325]

Nothing more annoying than mutas tearing apart a protoss for 10 minutes without a dark archon in sight.

[@chongli297]

Let's face it. Soma totally outclasses Moolso. He could've skipped mutas and just gone straight into hydras and still crushed this game!

[@seansoccer100]

What does the dark archon do?

[@Based_YT_Enjoyer]

Zerg is hella annoying I can't stand seeing it win nearly every game on these casts it looks so cheesy, just spam mutas every game with free vision all over the map, eventually get defilers then spam dark swarm 😴 dumb & unbalanced race

[@peppernoni9608]

​@@seansoccer100 if you research maelstrom u can trap all the mutas and kill them with one storm/severely bruise them so they gotta retreat to regenerate

[@chongli297]

@@seansoccer100 Dark archon has maelstrom, a spell that stuns a group of bio units. With one cast you could stun all the mutas and destroy them with a storm. DAs with maelstrom are very expensive to get going though so you gotta have a plan to work them into your build

[@michaciemniewski9791]

I think I have heard that devs had no time to make animations for Zerg buildings upgrading. I think some builidng move differently when the upgrade in Zerg but maby like 1 or 2 only.

[@ArtosisCasts]

No

[@xiaominsong]

Soma controls the game all the time.

[@ericjepson3765]

16:20

[@cattounreal9267]

thank you artosis for another wonderful cast as always you know what i havent ever seen in my short time watching brood war? a ZvZ that lasts more than 8 minutes, would love to see you cast one just to see how the mirror matchup works in late game

[@BoredLikeHelI]

He's casted a bunch already dude. Last year there were a couple of wild ones going on for long with hive tech and stuff.

[@TheBryceWade]

Missing that DA bruh

[@justiceforallcreation]

corsairs and dt's are very under used by protoss against zerg

[@Merknilash]

late 90s / early 00s protoss pros were using DTs for fighting under dark swarm because their melee dmg hits like a truck

[@justiceforallcreation]

@@Merknilash I remember taking the corsairs knocking out the overlords and sending in the DT's to wreak havoc. Get about 10-15 corsairs. You possibly wind up getting the enemy supply blocked and at the same time the dark templars do their thing. No one apparently uses spore colonies today so it becomes even more useful as a strategy.

[@andrerossel8394]

I think maelstrom on hydras was revolutionary. Making zerg pay for being pussies and not engage unless they have plus 50 hydra advantage.

[@ghost-user559]

Hydras do like 10 damage? So realistically having double the units of your opponent is literally a requirement. Protoss Dragoons do 20, I think Vulture is something similar. Zerg have the weakest early range unit in the game. But obviously they can make a bunch of them.

[@andrerossel8394]

@ghost-user559 zerg also has the fastest units overall. Although the decisive factor i think zerg players abuse well the strengths of their race specially ultras mutas and defilers. Protoss don't use reaver and dark archon enough and terran cut science vessels to do BC. Zerg players are really good on stick with what it's good and improve on it

[@ghost-user559]

@@andrerossel8394 Yeah but the speed doesn’t do much unless they have double the units or some defiler/mutant support. Zerg units are squishy and vaporize instantly to most other races mech and robo units. Zerg have to constantly overwhelm with numbers because individual units are the worst stats in the game. It’s the fact that they are so cheap that makes up for it with upgrades because they become very cost efficient as the game goes on, but individual units are the worst of the three races. I think the other races do the same thing. Terran just go Mech most games, and Protoss rely on gateway units. I think the fact that they can get stronger units stops Terran and Protoss from being creative because its harder for them to pivot strategies once they field a few armies, whereas Zerg is so cheap to just pivot into a new strategy half way through a match over and over. But 1 to 1 Zerg are the weakest race as far as units go.

[@andrerossel8394]

@@ghost-user559 speed does a lot. I agree a lot on your point and I think you agree with me too. Just 3 ling's can be a nightmare on any base. They have dirt cheap combining speed they can be annoying at the same time they can choose they engagements. I really agree with your point specially on protoss . Reavers are really tanky and not that expensive they have long range too they can snipe a few but 4 or 5 or 6. It would require protoss be more strategic on they positioning but there is not much zerg can do on ground against too many reavers. Also protoss has the best anti air unit on the game it's surprising they don't even try use it

[@ghost-user559]

@@andrerossel8394 Yeah Tanks and Reavers wreck Zerg and it’s basically gg if the Zerg are not far enough along already. Even just a few tanks and marines or Reavers dropped by the mineral line take out a Zerg immediately. And corsairs are very good and Protoss can get them nearly immediately. I think the fact that Zerg is the most restrictive building requirement keeps the game very balanced too. Protoss need at least a pylon, but they are cheap, Terran can go anywhere and move most buildings. Zerg can’t even build defensive buildings without having a hatchery first, which means it’s automatically 300 minerals baseline even if you just want a few sunkens. The Zerg being dependent on the Creep, means Lings act like the “immune system” of a Zerg base. Outside the base they have mixed results, but in their base they are almost always the first line of defense against a base attack. Overall they really did design a very balanced game, and even the apparent “imbalances” are to counter Op units that the other races have.

[@shortpitched713]

Ehh, don't think the guardians really did much. Soma was enough ahead in the game that he could use anything to win. It's like saying your ghosts win you TvZ games with nukes. Not really.

[@mistercroc9407]

Flying crabs op

[@ThunderChickenBucket]

nice

[@cirno66]

Birdy Zerg

[@EdwardMalus]

Artosis if you're reading this good luck with the shit buddy I believe in you 👍👍

[@ArtosisCasts]

Thx means a lot

[@UCfjZmDYoZY3laj2mfiinm7gc]

16:47 / 24:17

[@UCfjZmDYoZY3laj2mfiinm7gc]

GG

[@BoxStudioExecutive]

I thought zerg buildings respire/pulsate faster when they are researching tech?

[@ArtosisCasts]

No

[@benn1181]

Epic

[@Bytewalker]

Thought experiment: what race is best if AI could do infinite apm / perfect strategy on current map pool? Z > P T > Z on close spawn, Z > T on xspawn T > P on close spawn, P > T on xspawn ??

[@ghost-user559]

X spawn, Protoss, close spawn Zerg. Zerg can just flood units and the computer units don’t wall in or have any sense of meta, they just go all in over and over, so proximity is very important more than the map itself. I would argue the map meta only really impacts a human game. Ai doesn’t really take advantage of any of the little micro strategies that make a map favorable to a given race.

[@Bytewalker]

@@ghost-user559 "AI with perfect strategy". Not a dumb AI that won't wall in or will just 'flood units'

[@TagaBearClaw]

ggs

[@phoenixlich]

Zerg is so HYPE!

[@kevinf.2556]

I love seeing guardians in ZvP, because theyre easy to get value and annoying to shut down - its one of these things where you take away enemy focus, because mining time is just THAT important.

[@nelsonchentw]

too little storm

[@andreibarabash9701]

Omg! I just realised that the music in the background is from Dune2000

[@ghost-user559]

No it’s StarCraft 1998 lol. I wonder if they licensed it to Dune too

[@heyimSkyee]

Zerg units so good lol

[@maxwellstylez]

The amount of PvZs ive watched that last 20+ minutes but I never thought the Protoss would win is very high. I assume guardians are underutilized because Zerg already has enough tools to win.

[@Fanelan053]

Good grief

[@SamSam-ke9zy]

Oh look, another zerg win. :-/

[@eddie-booth]

hello artosis i hope u have a nice poop u said in ur cast that the soma game was yesterday. it was yesterday for us, but for you it could be any day! you could have recorded both of these at any point after the map released! we'll never know! it's a mystery!

[@namepolicy3971]

broken game. all zerg has to do is make mutualist. the other races know and build defenses, still can't do anything about them

[@ghost-user559]

The same applies to wraith and tank, and corsairs and reavers. Every single race has a few units that wreck everything if you don’t have units prepared to counter. Mutas have no spells, and can’t cloak or shield. All Protoss units come with a rechargeable shield, and Terran have Science vessels aka flying spell casting, and Protoss Arbiters are way Op.

[@dj_koen1265]

@@ghost-user559 arbiters arent really op, and shields arent all that useful most of the time, outside of being immune to plague

[@ghost-user559]

@@dj_koen1265 Recall and mass cloaking an entire army isn’t Op? Stasis is the only one I’ll say is situational. I’ve seen it win battles, and I’ve seen it do nothing. But cloaking units and recall are definitely op. An Arbiter just flying back and forth means without a detector every other shot or more can’t even target those units.

[@soldier22881]

i see broodwar i insert the original broodwar disc and play the superior version of starcraft not remaster

[@joelb1299]

EZ Protoss

[@25yougo]

Is Nada paying you to cast his games lol? Why are we watching this sludge

[@ArtosisCasts]

Is this “Nada” in the room with you right now?

[@RyanJ14115]

Artosis ... with the success of blizzards warcraft/Diablo & starcraft being the biggest are you all not surprised there hasn't been a game equally as good?? We're talking 1998 starcraft wtf no one else can make a game equally good? Is brood war that good? Brood war is perfect and can't be topped can it Keep in mind I'm drunk as fuck but I still think I'm right.

[@HateToday1]

Zerg losing in the late game is just not a thing.

[@markairey362]

2 scouts, with minimal upgrades,wreck that guardian/mutalisk camp... And 2 dark archons with feedback, ruin the defilers. Failing that, 2 reavers in a shuttle, kill everything under a dark swarm that isn't an ultralisk... Protoss players are all robots.

[@Merknilash]

When players aren't forced to come up with new solutions, they don't.

[@ghost-user559]

Or just speed zealots to get under the dark swarm, or a Dark Archon to just take control over the defilers and use the dark swarm or plague against their own units. Lots of options. Or even just a few carriers and the Guardians are toast, and mutas have a hard time against Corsair/Carrier combo.

[@cyberneticdex69]

pathetic👎