My Take On Kris/Vessel Knight

[@guiltyflygon]

Seeing a lot of he/him when referring to Kris in the comments... So, just as a reminder, Kris is only ever referred to with they/them pronouns in the game! I feel like if we can pay enough attention as theorists to come up with the idea that Queen's use of it/it's pronouns might mean something about the Knight then we can also respect the concept of non-binary people existing. Thanks. 🫡

[@redrooster3420]

Thank you so much for saying this! The point about how people can be attentive to the tiniest details in-game but then ignore the character's canon pronouns is what stands out to me the most too! Making mistakes sometimes is understandable as our societies are still very heavily cisnormative and binary, but if people are just messing up by accident, then reminders like this are still awesome and helpful too! It's exhausting seeing how many more people in the fandom lately seem to be misgendering characters (especially characters that use they/them pronouns and/or are gender non-conforming). As a trans person, it's especially disheartening, because the inclusive nature of the game towards LGBTQ+ characters is part of what makes engaging in the fandom so much more appealing and comfortable for me, compared to some other media. So anyway, it means a lot to see this reminder from creators and those with platforms. Thanks again and hope you have a nice day! :)

[@Flynnisthename]

Thank you for saying this. It means a lot to me as a non-binary person

[@RichConnerGMN]

as a yesbinary person thank you

[@Cawziiku]

thank you for saying this, i dont know why it's so hard for people to just use gender-neutral terms for them ☠

[@asdffdas254]

based

[@tearsofthekingdom9062]

WHAT THE VESSEL AND GASTER LACK IN CONCRETE LORE, THEY MAKE UP FOR IN LACK OF CONCRETE LOREEEEE

[@alexwalker5716]

a blessing and a curse, or something.

[@tearsofthekingdom9062]

@@alexwalker5716 true

[@justcallmezero.]

I think the knight is actually that one stray pixel that has appeared twice now.

[@gingergingey8271]

Good theory, it has my support.

[@biot1c]

just saying the only time we've seen that stray pixel has been with a dark fountain directly in the background. retroactive foreshadowing? i'm sold.

[@kretesWMV]

"Player, why did you create the dark fountains?" "I DIDN'T! He's talking crazy!"

[@pointwoods]

I think the thing with king is that Kris did what they did while in the light world, locking the other kings away and setting up the events of chapter 1. Kris, as "the knight" is just interacting with objects in the light world. When the darkners describe "the knight" they refer to the seemingly omniscient force that defines the rules of their dark worlds. That force is Kris, but not in the flesh, not as they are when present in the dark worlds.

[@Icebrick2]

Minor thing: Ralsei doesn't say he sensed a new dark fountain, he just says he "sensed a dark presence." I always thought this was more related to Kris and Susie being in danger than the fountain being made like 30 seconds before we arrive.

[@guiltyflygon]

That's fair, I wonder what your opinion on what the dark presence is then if not the fountain. Presence implies something tangible so I guess in this case it'd have to be Queen?

[@Icebrick2]

​@@guiltyflygon I think perhaps it *is* the Dark Fountain, but despite being made earlier Ralsei could only sense it now. Maybe he has some kind of spiritual connection to Kris, Susie, or the player, and could only sense the fountain once we entered it. Ralsei can hijack out perspective when he invites us to think about Susie, maybe he can see through it at all times? Or maybe it's just a poetic kind of feeling that your friends are suddenly in danger (or in the presence of a dark fountain, in this case).

[@GFCOLCQuote]

Dude how could you even post about Kris Knight, it's clearly Papyrus knight. Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a video by GuiltyFlygon talking about Papyrus being the knight. He's clearly in the wrong, I think it's Kris. I think I'll go post and tell him that on his video.

[@GFCOLCQuote]

Something I just thought about Kris: Do we have *more control* in the dark world? Is our connection stronger there? At least, they haven't ripped out their soul there or took any control for themselves in the dark world even when they were alone.

[@abacaxigomes4416]

I assume it's because the dark world is more dangerous and unpredictable. Just imagine if Kris takes the soul, puts it somewhere they thinks is safe... and Lancer just runs us over lol

[@Slenderquil]

I had an idea that Kris is trying to get rid of us in the dark world by forcing us to take hits for them in battles. The fun gang might just get back up after a few minutes, and then the soul would be gone. That's why the soul gets involved even when it's just Susie. I also think Kris might be able to survive without a soul in the dark world thanks to magic.

[@His_Princess619]

Isn't the soul sealing the fountains? Except for the snow grave route as far as I know, in the pacifist one/neutral one the song "your power" plays in the background maybe implying that it's the soul's/player's power

[@minestar2247]

@@His_Princess619 Yeah, the soul is necessary to close the fountains and going home

[@redrooster3420]

@@abacaxigomes4416 the idea of lancer running us over suddenly is really entertaining lmao, thank you for that image! XD

[@rayanalfaraj8]

Clearly it’s Dugtrio that’s the knight, Dugtrio can learn slashing moves and knights have swords, Dugtrio can also burrow underground so it’s easy to sneak underground. Motivation and existence? Uhhhhhh (!) Dugtrio is a darkner that can move through the light world… trust

[@trondordoesstuff]

The ending to the video sure is a strong argument..... ...for Player Angel

[@TheSkyGuy77]

That's been my conclusion.

[@minestar2247]

Well, you could say it from a certain point of view, as the player is a higher power

[@mr.j3rs3y]

We’re just a little guardian angel

[@minestar2247]

@@mr.j3rs3y but not always ^( o-o)^

[@Scruffy901]

@@mr.j3rs3y Thank you. We are Kris' Guardian Angel, because if you genuinely think about it. when we possess Kris we are saving the world, giving Kris new friends, and we are taking the responsibility of sealing dark fountains. Kris would probably die in the dark worlds Like seriously. do you think a teenager like Kris can handle tons and tons of enemies? I doubt Kris can save and reset, but even if they can they probably would have to seal fountains probably for their entire life unless humans are migrating into hometown or they fulfill the prophecy and banishing the angel's heaven seriously sounds like a bad thing waiting to happen and when a prophecy is calling for 3 teenagers to save the world, that's just incredibly suspicious. We are probably here to protect the teenagers and guide them towards the light. But when we try to rebel on our objective (Which is doing snowgrave route for example). that's where we get punished and we are forced to do our objective hence our choices don't matter

[@Slenderquil]

I love how vague the scrapped intro quote is. It's also fuel to mess with any theory depending on what you think the knight would look like

[@alexwalker5716]

it kind of makes me think that the knight has a distinct and recognizable silhouette. that might not narrow it down though, since knights usually wear helmets with stuff on them.

[@DogDogGodFog]

At least we know that none of the main route bosses are the knight (at least that's what that seems to imply)

[@chuckeroo777]

I really like Black Chestnut’s take on Kris knight. They also propose that Ralsai’s odd behavior is because Kris basically created him to be the player’s babysitter.

[@Landjrin]

It's gonna be revealed by the end that the knight is actually multiple people. 7 knights that each open one in each chapter

[@sarafontanini7051]

that just raises more questions!

[@luluzin5022]

That would be very confusing. At that point the Darkners should use a different name for the Lightner that created their fountain.

[@Landjrin]

@@luluzin5022 That would spoil the mystery now wouldn't it? Plus as far as the Darkners know there is only one knight, it's clear from Queens description that none of them know exactly what the Knight looks like. It was a meme but imagine lol

[@millie_the_beetle]

Barbershop heptet of knights but instead of singing they're consecutively opening dark fountains at different pitches

[@gabrielrochadasilva3183]

Kris Knighter here. Don't mind if I chip in with some counter arguments. *Timing:* (snipped into the responses because of length) *Something about a scrapped opening:* A main character appearing alongside their alter ego in an opening is a common anime trope. *Why now??? Too obvious???* I have nothing to add. You said pretty much everything. *King???* I don't think King was able to recognise Kris as the Knight. I can think of two ways this can work: - Kris deliberately hid their identity from King. - King only saw the Knight before and/or while the Fountain was created, and couldn't fully perceive it's appearance. *What about before the story?* Sure, the reason Kris became the Knight is something we should be able to answer eventually. But not necessarily in the first two chapters. *Why do they look fearful of the closet Dark Fountain?* I have an idea. Susie was fearful of the Fountain herself. Had Kris stepped into the closet as Susie demanded, there's a good possibility she wouldn't have followed them (instead demanding for Kris to get the chalk on their own). Kris wanted Susie to go with them, so they stepped back and acted fearful to egg Susie on. *Snowgrave?* Nothing different happens at the end of Chapter 2 if you do Snowgrave. Regardless of Kris being the Knight, their reasons to create Chapter 3's Fountain weren't changed in the slightest.

[@gabrielrochadasilva3183]

*Timing:* Before the game starts, Kris was likely already being controled by the Red Soul. There's really not much else that could explain the birdcage. Toriel's "Kris just does that sometimes" in Chapter 2 implies the same thing. The Cyber World was created long before Noelle and Berdly set foot in the library. This is true even if Kris is not the Knight. I have two reasons to believe that: 1- So much happens from Fountain creation to the Sweet Capn' Cakes battle that it doesn't make sense for it to happen in such a short time span: - The Fountain is created. - Queen becomes a tyrant with worlddomination aspirations. - Sweet Capn' Cakes create a rebel team. - They create the junk shop. - They get a visit from Spamton. - They get a visit from Roulxs. - They lock the entrance to their shop. - They battle the Delta Warriors. (notably, they mention Spamton and Roulxs in the same conversation, but only Roulxs's visit is described as happening "recently") 2- According to Sweet Capn' Cakes, Queen went "overdrive" after the Fountain was created. according to Plug Girl, Queen got "quite extreme" when the internet went out. This implies the internet going out and the Fountain being created happened at about the same time.

[@i010001]

"Gasteriffic" New word dropped

[@alexwalker5716]

I find it ironic that the reason so many people are sure Kris is the Knight (they make a Dark Fountain right in front of our faces) is the same reason I'm so sure Kris isn't the Knight. I'll admit that Kris being the Knight would be a cool direction for the story to go in... if it was revealed at the end of the game. or at least half way through or something like that. it could be such amazing twist, but if you reveal it as a cliffhanger only two sevenths into the story, then what's the point? also, at least on the normal route (I'm not sure about on Snowgrave/Weird Route) they basically get to watch Queen give a slideshow on How To Make Dark Fountains. of course they know how to make a Fountain: Queen gave them a free tutorial. (I'm not trying to start a fight with any Kris Knight theorists out there. I'm just having thoughts that might potentially lead somewhere.)

[@zipperooni]

my thoughts exactly tbh

[@ninjabunny9526]

Why does it have to be a twist though? One of my problems with Kris not being the knight theories is that they relie on the reveal of the knight being a big twist near the end of the game, but I genuinely don't get why you'd think that. The knight is only mentioned a handful of times, usually off-handedly as well, and never in much of a mysterious way, besides Spamton's line about the knight, but also everything spamton says is mysterious. Really none of the other characters ponder about the knight at all, it makes me think the knight's identity was never meant to be a big mystery with a twist reveal at the end. I'm making this comment btw bc I'm genuinely curious why non-kris knighters are so adamant about the knight's identity being this big long mystery. I never got that impression while playing the game myself, I wonder what I'm missing. Most of them take it as a given so they never explain that part.

[@sarafontanini7051]

him not being the knight DOES raise the question of whyhe would make a fountain right in the living room though,and why he'd go so far as to slash thetires of his mum's car (as its strongly implied that that's what he did when he left us in the bathroom)

[@zipperooni]

@@sarafontanini7051 honestly I find that potential mystery of why kris decided to do it when they’re not the knight to be an interesting thing to explore (kris uses they/them and not he/him btw)

[@sarafontanini7051]

@@zipperooni I know sorry I'm too used to reading kris as more masculing for some reason (which is WEIRD cause I typically don't do that) and tend to default to masculine pronouns without even realising.

[@Lizzymun]

23:27 I actual had a real neat Idea to explain the Birdcage thing. What if there's gonna be a playable flashback sequence in a later chapter (or multiple Flashbacks across the Game) So while for us those moments happen after the start of the game, for Kris it would have happened before the beginning, explaining why they seem to already be used to the Player and have a whole setup to deal with the soul 25:40 Pretty sure that's from a Newsletter, though I couldn't tell you which one

[@guiltyflygon]

I really like that flashback idea! It also explains why Kris is adversarial to us right away and already knows how to remove the soul without having to consider that Gaster taught them or something lol.

[@MisterLambda]

Best video overviewing a potential Kris Knight candidacy, you were very thorough, fair and raised a lot interesting points to think about. Especially in regards to them being afraid to enter the closet Fountain, that’s ripe for speculation. The Knight, whoever the candidate probably didn’t create the closet Dark Fountain, as you’ve discussed. Only the unused classroom one by the time of Chapter 1. Though supposing Kris _was_ the Knight, they might have been hesitant to enter because they knew it would be difficult to exit. And Susie seeing their hesitation was just projecting her own fear onto Kris as well. Of course they could have been genuinely afraid also, suddenly there is this Dark Fountain here that they didn’t create, so where did this come from? Like that’s a spine chilling prospect if you’ve assumed that you’re the only who knows about this Dark World stuff.

[@guiltyflygon]

I have seen a few people raise that explanation for why Kris gets frightened at the closet and I think it makes way more sense then "they were just acting" for the reasons I explained in the video haha.

[@GiftOfKnowledge-np9vg]

Alright I wanna say I appreciate your video first and foremost, and I hope I don't come off as antagonistic or anything. But I have chosen my side, firmly with Kris Knight, and would like to present some further evidence and/or refute a few of his knocks because I am incapable of shutting about Deltarune: -Regarding theme, in addition to freedom and choice, one other theme Kris Knight adds to that you don't touch too much on is that of 'the player vs the player character'. Undertale had a bit of this with stuff between the player, Frisk & Chara, but Deltarune is already going way deeper into this theme with Kris taking back control from us to do whatever they want. So having that go so far as to be a main antagonist, causing problems during cut scenes that we have to spend the next few hours cleaning up, would be a neat extension of that. Plus it would make our relationship more interesting than 'unwilling puppeteer and poor victim who just wants their freedom from us.' (I mean, considering the birdcage, I kind of think Kris has more agency in our dynamic than people give them credit for anyways.) -If I may add another connection to Gaster, one a bit more direct than the bunker stuff: Spamton's calls from the mystery benefactor we presume to be Gaster is described as "garbage noise," the same description you get trying to make a call on Kris' phone in the Dark World. A sign they've been in contact with Gaster? I mean who knows with that guy but maybe. -I just don't buy that Cyber World was just created before we got there, during or even _after_ out visit to Castle Town. I can take or leave Kris Knight tbh, but I'm sure about this one and I'm gonna be really annoying about it. Firstly; people say it doesn't make sense Noelle & Berdly walked into Cyber World the way Kris & Susie did in ch.1, but I don't think it makes sense they were in the room when it was opened. We know the Fountain was made in the room itself (if it was made in the lab's closet, the Dark World would be based on the closet), meaning either Noelle & Berdly saw the Knight and never mentioned them, or those nerds somehow fell asleep minutes into a study session. Second, if the Knight just opened the Fountain and left minutes or even seconds before we arrived, in this big mystery plot, you think there'd be some trace of them. A trace of any suspect being in or near the library. Which would mean either it's Undyne, or we're on the wrong trail here. And thirdly, my favourite; the evidence that the internet went down around the time the Dark Fountain went up. Because various NPCs in Cyber World, including Sweet Cap'n Cakes attribute either of these events to Queen having a sudden personality change and going mad; and since we never hear of her personality changing twice, this implies the two events happened around the same time. And that time would be well before class ended at a minimum. It would also imply the Knight took down the internet; which happens to match up with both how the Knight set up Card Castle and Kris setting stuff up for chapter 3 before making that Fountain. -Speaking of, Kris being the Knight would explain why we'd get the Knight reveal so early. Like if it's Undyne or Alvin, you'd reveal that in chapter 4 or 5 because there's both tension to a mystery and character to explore there. Papyrus or the vessel? Wait that out to 6 or 7; because this would only be done for the twist and there's not much to explore after. But if Kris is the Knight? Of course the mystery only lasts until chapter 2 in that case, that's only as long as it needs to last. You'd want to get that reveal out of the way early so you can spend the rest of the game exploring that dynamic. (Besides; you want more mystery? Want more end of chapter hooks? Everything that brought Kris to this point is right there free for the exploration.)

[@sarafontanini7051]

PLus there's dramatic irony if kris being the night is revealed early to US but NOT to the rest of the cast

[@gingergingey8271]

I'm also a firm supporter of Kris knight theory, also, if anyone complains about their theories on who the knight is are wrong, they are stupid and shouldn't be allowed to theorise, I won't complain if Kris isn't the knight, also, please make your comments easier to read if you're making them the length of every Harry Potter book fused with every chapter of one piece.

[@ShinyYas]

Honestly, every time you do a Spamton voice, I've now headcanoned your take on his voice as the voice in my brain reading his dialog. It's honestly so funny and perfect. 😊 I love these videos so much. They're perfect to do work to, wigh it playing in the background.♡♡♡

[@TheSkyGuy77]

If Kris is the Knight, then Dess is probably the Angel (and is the player).

[@davoid-]

While I'm not sure what the comment etiquette is about mentioning other theory videos, in terms of Kris knight, I feel like the first 3 deltarune videos by Black Chestnut are a required reading if you wanna deep dive into a good version of the theory. I'll be honest, before I saw them I was in the "I'm not sticking to any knight camp because it could equally be any one of them", but these cover a LOT of the Kris counterpoints when the videos are taken together. While I won't be listing them off here because they're much better put in the videos, I will leave off with something that I find being a casual piece of evidence yet also extremely specific, being the fact that the TV is plugged in between chapter 1 and 2. What would Kris be doing if not cooking something? I feel like them predicting Susie would come over to watch TV would be way too far, and them doing it in the night would also imply that the chapter 1 ending also wasn't just a pie escapade. But who knows! I still feel the knight is an open question, but really the common anti-kris theory arguments are put under scrutiny in those videos which make them a really strong candidate in my eyes as well as putting it together cohesively with Ralsei EDIT: Oh wait someone already mentioned them, well, still, I guess I'll just say that again it really could be Kris! Who knows what happens when the new chapters roll around! Maybe it will be none other than Paneton Sumletterz!?

[@extremempsilvamps5851]

Fuck it, Player Knight my new favorite theory

[@nightlypiano41]

(Akihiko voice from Persona 3) *I've been waiting for this!*

[@Eiroth]

>Midnight Back from the evening shift at the factory >Really need to unwind >See this video >Click immediately

[@dogeteam2235]

same... without the factory stuff, although society is a factory (I am the jonker)

[@measleyvengeful]

that opening cutscene quote from toby is from an interview i believe, not a tweet

[@guiltyflygon]

Ah, makes sense.

[@trondordoesstuff]

Actually, neither. It showed up in the prelude of the Sixth Anniversary Livestream.

[@MadHymek323]

* Actually it's from neither, it's from the Deltarune Chapter 1 live playthrough that announces Chapter 2's release at the end

[@trondordoesstuff]

@@MadHymek323 hey-

[@sarafontanini7051]

some additional/extra bits that may or may not tie into kris knight being a real possibility: -the very first save spot in the game. when you go to save on it, you save over a save spot. I forget which name the save spots have (one of them has kris' name, the other has the player's name they made in th character select screen) but if the main save file has your name in it and the one you save over has Kris' name, that is potential evidence for Kris doing SOMETHING before the story started. Or maybe the overrittne file is ??? but, again, raises questions to think about. -Spamton's "communion" line reads interestingly in light of Kris Knight, in light of you and kris having a 'communion' of some sort in control of Kris' body, but also the fact that spamton gets scared and shuts up, almost as if he's scared the Knight is listening to the conversation...almost as if...the knight could be right in front of him, or at least a body the knight has partial ownership of. -Kris is the sole human in the town. Could that MEAN something, either in regards to his motives as potentially the knight, or some other story reason? we also know in undertale that humans hold the power of determination, which while its suggested the rules are slightly different in deltarune could have SOME meaning to the story regardless. -Kris has been noted to be a bit creepy and play some cruel pranks on people. This could be foreshadowing to his nature as the villain of the story if he is the knight, but outside of that gives us reason as to why noone would be that suspicious ofhim because they've long since written off his behaviour. -Him being able to rip out the SOUL to go off and do shit on his own, including magically summoning a knife, while looking creepy as fuck lend credence to something being OFF about him. The scenes must be relevant to the plot for SOME REASON otherwise we wouldn't have it happen in two chapters in a row. It couldn't just be for the purpose of a red herring, because we have our protagonist actively doing stuff without our knowledge and control and doing shit that goes against what we assume about the rules. Plus it'd be kinda lame to do these weird bits and NOT have it be a part of the main plot. -one thing that's not considered is that we don't fully know the rules of the dark worlds, especially not in how work when they are created, or how long it takes one to form. The idea that a dark world is formed instantly is only an assumption thus far, and for all we know a dark world takes a while to form.

[@randomtree7295]

I know you said it was a crazy theory but i think i genuinely enjoy player knight now you've mentioned it. The concept of us fighting against the fun squad once our status as the knight is revealed is so cool

[@redrooster3420]

@25:30 You mention a scrapped opening, and how you couldn't find the tweet related to it. Well, I have found what you were talking about! It's not a tweet but a part of the youtube livestream on the Fangamer youtube channel titled "UNDERTALE 6th Anniversay So We Play DELTARUNE Chapter 1 For Some Reason" and it takes place at the kind of loading/intro section of the stream where scrapped and rare music plays while waiting for the gaming stream to start. At one part (which I added the timestamp for below), the scrapped song "Game Main Theme (Piano Sketch)" plays and beneath it is Toby's description of an intro scene he had thought of while originally making the song. I would link to it but youtube is sometimes weird about including links in comments, so if anyone wants to see it just look up that youtube video title by Fangamer and go to 23:28 to see it for yourself :)

[@DogDogGodFog]

I like how "make a fountain with your own mother" was a sentence here

[@sarafontanini7051]

anothr knock against 'vessel knight': while a cool idea it would mean the antagonist is lie COMPLETELY disconnected from the entire setting of the town thus making EVERYTHING superfluous to the antagonist, as the vessel is only meaningful to US the PLAYER, not KRIS or SUSIE or RALSEI or NOELLE or TORIEL ETC ETC ETC It would also mean that eitheer timeshenanigans areinvovled or the vessel was making a dark fountain the same time as we're making it also a supposed motive of being mad at being dicarded doesn't work cause WE didn't discard it. (in fatc i'm currently leaning towards the vessel comign up as a new body for the player should Kris turn out to be the knight and you needing some way to fight them)

[@monsieurlefrog8706]

i think people conflate krisknight with kris being evil. i think it makes their character far more interesting if the mystery moves from who is the knight to why is kris the knight. did they have an experience in the bunker, is it to do with finding dess? why do they still make the fountain in their house even if we do a snowgrave? i think these are all far more interesting questions than waiting until chapter 5 or 7 for a hometown character pulling their mask off and being like "aha! twas me all along!"

[@guiltyflygon]

See, my feelings are exactly the opposite haha. I like that there's so many questions around Kris's motivations, but if Kris is the Knight it undermines those a bit. Especially finding out this early. Like, say Kris is the Knight with the motivation of finding Dess. Well, that solves all these mysteries with a single answer, right? Kris makes a fountain after Snowgrave to protect Noelle by finding Dess, Kris is motivated to be the Knight to find Dess, and Kris's experience in the bunker that set them on this path is probably losing Dess. It's the same if Kris's motivation is getting rid of our control. They make fountains to try to get rid of us, they make one after Snowgrave as they've just seen how big a threat we are, and the bunker would then probably tie into why we control them. It doesn't have to be this way of course, but if the story is going to prioritize Kris as the Knight and resolve the mystery of who the Knight is so early it needs gas to keep going, which is why it feels like everything would then necessarily have to come together. If ANYONE else is the Knight then Kris's actions after Snowgrave are a real question again, as is what happened to them in the bunker. The Knight serves as our Asgore level twist in Deltarune, while Kris is our comparatively deeper Asriel. To be fair either way you prefer is up to personal taste, but that's my take on it anyways 🫡

[@monsieurlefrog8706]

@@guiltyflygon you make good points and i agree that the knight whoever it is isnt gonna be the real big bad because if they were bad theyd probably have caused the roaring by now. i still subscribe to the theory because theres a lot of evidence for kris being the knight (the tv being plugged in and kris sleeping through class etc)

[@mothsolotl]

My biggest problem with Vessel Knight Theory is that the Vessel is thematically closer to being a Secret Boss than to being the Knight. Someone gave the Secret Bosses secret knowledge, and the Knight is likely the reason why the Secret Bosses were hidden away in the first place. If the Vessel is the Knight, then that means that it had discarded the Secret Bosses. This doesn't sit right with me, because the Vessel, itself, has experience with being discarded. It makes more sense for the Vessel be a later Secret Boss, and it makes less sense for them to be the Knight, who had discarded the Secret Bosses.

[@ninjabunny9526]

Imo Kris has really the ONLY motivation for making dark fountains out of any character that's been introduced so far. The knight can't be trying to start the roaring, otherwise they would have already started it when making the chapter 1 fountain since all you have to do is make a dark fountain within a dark fountain which would take, like, ten minutes tops to do. So that means that the knight just wants to make dark fountains, and who benefits from doing that? Kris does, since sealing a fountain increases their level, and we know by the save points which often talk about power that power is important to Kris and/or Deltarune as a whole. Dark fountains dont benefit any other lightners out there besides Kris and Susie (and maybe also Noelle and Berdly but its yet to be seen if they will get the level increase from sealing the chapter 2 fountain considering they weren't in our party when Kris sealed it, but they definitively didnt get the levels from the chapter 1 dark fountain like Kris and Susie did). So the only lighters with the motivations to be the knight are Kris and Susie, and Susie Knight is not very likely for many MANY reasons. Honestly when i learned this from a theory video thats when Kris Knight became as close to 100% confirmed to me as any pre-chapter 3 theory can be.

[@minerturtle45]

Toby talking about the scrapped opening wasn't a tweet, it was an information snippet from right before one of the anniversary streams

[@endoftheline8061]

The scrapped intro quote comes from a livestream where Toby shared some unused songs before the dads started playing. Not sure which anniversary stream it was.

[@lablimpet]

I think Oblivion theory makes a pretty good case for the thematic benefits of Vessel knight

[@alexburn4014]

i have to know. whats that?

[@lucyread]

9:13 big hero six moment

[@cactoos143]

this channel is such a godsend for deltarune freaks such as myself thank you bro

[@godoatthegoat2884]

It's definitely NOT Kris Knight, I love you!

[@ShirubaGin]

They definitely are 🙏

[@NOTaNaBC]

Where is proof

[@misadique845]

The scrapped opening was mentioned during the Undertale anniversary stream during which chapter 2 was revealed.

[@SuperBatSpider]

I know another theory, the theory of "Not a mystery" where The Knight is not anyone we met, but their own character. That's possible but kinda unsatisfying.

[@guiltyflygon]

It is possible, but I trust Toby not to make that mistake lol

[@SuperBatSpider]

@@guiltyflygon Eh, if it happens I trust him to make it work. But I do expect it to be someone we’ve met of course.

[@NOTaNaBC]

​@@guiltyflygon how this is mistake lol

[@sarafontanini7051]

having the knight be a seperate character we have yet to meet IS possible, but it'd be really lame to reveal the big mystery vilalin is a random ass character we've never seen or heard of at any point and doesn'tmake for a compelling antagonist.

[@SuperBatSpider]

@@sarafontanini7051 Yeah. This is probably my LEAST favorite candidate. The only way for it to work is if this new guy is an absolute S tier character and to be revealed before the 3rd act so we have plenty of time with them.

[@battae5984]

"Resurrecting Asriel". Dude, you can't resurrect someone who isn't dead

[@aaaaaaaaaaaaa-b6w]

Theres a theory asriel died right before he was gonna go to college so everyone thinks he just went there and is in denial

[@thenobody7509]

So something I want to mention. In the genocide route gerson talks about someone who will strike us down. That there isn't a prophecy or legend bout someone like that just something he knows. And this person no matter what will never stop trying to do the right thing For me this feels like deltarune foreshadowing. Foreshadowing that perhaps could lend to us being the knight. Because for me he feels like he was foreshadowing Kris.

[@guiltyflygon]

He was definitely talking about Undyne there because he trained her in the Undertale timeline, but it could definitely serve as foreshadowing for Deltarune still!

[@alexburn4014]

well in that route chara did strike us down. kris has some similarities to them so the chances are good that it could happen again.

[@bendonatier]

For me the biggest argument for Kris Knight, which is next to Alvan Knight as my best guesses, is the thematic angle. We know Kris is a troubled kid. They do things that they are told, but also go out of their way to scare folks and cause trouble. In chapter two we learn that Kris would explicitly throw Yoshi in the pit in Super Mario World, simply for it's own sake, not for a tactical advantage like Azreal. I feel like the fountains are representative of them lashing out, of doing stupid self destructive things for their own gain. Chapter two's cliff hanger is also the best place to show it off, because Chapter 2 is all about how Kris isn't in control, it's hook is "So what kind of person are they?".

[@JammyJam5588]

Unironically I think Kris acted around Susie because if they didn't Susie would have made them go in first and shut the door on them. As a Krighter, I will say I feel speculating on Kris' motive too hard as the Knight is trying to read too far ahead. Actually speculating on knight motive in general feels like a dead end. We only have shallow and silly things to work with no matter who is the knight. I feel it only makes sense if the Knight has some motive relating to fate itself that we cannot glean the true purpose of yet at all. Also the scrapped intro runs contradict to King knowing the Knight. The scrapped intro if it showed the Knight at the top of the stairs undisguised, it would spoil the "mystery" instantly. So they'd have to be wearing a disguise/armor or something. So if the Knight is wearing full body armor the King couldn't have personally met them and know who they are. And vice versa doesn't work the best either as then the player is being spoiled.

[@Flynnisthename]

Been waiting for this one

[@bobbobbobbobbobbobbobbobbo519]

Bro, I just thought of something. What if one of the endings of a chapter is Kris removing us from his body? But when he goes away, we hear someone approach and say to kris that they are worried about Kris and that he doesn't look good. Since I'm guessing Kris is limping without the soul, he is taken away, and we are stuck alone wherever Kris leaves us. I don't know where it would go from there, but what if someone finds us, or we escape?

[@salamishroom]

cool theory!, and kris uses they btw

[@bobbobbobbobbobbobbobbobbo519]

@salamishroom oh yah, i totally forgot! My bad.

[@sarafontanini7051]

I mean you went and made a whole ass body at the start of the game. could use that if kris tosses you away.

[@saturnbishop6595]

You make a joke about "being dis-carded", but I actually had the same line of thinking a while back. If Toby does stuff like, "But it refused" meaning both to resist and to fuse back together, as well as "determination" meaning willpower but also "un-death", I feel like we could look at "dis-carded" in the same way. Perhaps they materialize from the created card -- in that sense, they wouldn't choose who they are either. They would be made FROM that card, and take on the player's will, regardless of their own want.

[@guiltyflygon]

There's also the idea that Noelle's Angel connections could make her a "Snow Angel" in the end lol

[@gingergingey8271]

Ralsei said and I quote "I sensed a dark presence", I forgot the rest of it but he said something similar to "so I hurried over here."

[@gingergingey8271]

Also, a scrapped opening is not usable evidence considering it was SCRAPPED.

[@krisspychissp]

We know for kris to make the cyber world, they would’ve had to have broken into the library at night… Emphasis on broken in. Could Kris really do that without being caught? Well probably not by napstablook, but Undyne? If someone broke in at night I could totally see undyne being on it in seconds, especially since (correct me if I’m wrong) the library and police are on the same street. But maybe they were asleep- we know from the wet nosed bandits that Mayor Holiday was (probably) standing atop her house at night. And we also know she acts like the police herself. Furthermore we know that it was the same night Kris would’ve made the fountain since the bandit’s appear only in chapter 2… so why would Mayor Holiday not see Kris? But okay okay *maybe* it happened later. Unless the library was god awful at security and didn’t have a lock Kris would need to do some sort of damage to get in… damage Undyne would see and be frantic about! So Kris probably aint da knight.

[@BasicViewer]

Both Undyne and Alphys say there's never any crime in the town, and the school is unlocked even after the school day is over, so it's not out of the question to say that people feel safe enough to keep their doors unlocked. The wetnosed bandits weren't seen in Chapter 1 because we didn't go into the police station.

[@krisspychissp]

@@BasicViewer They talk about it lime they just got in tho. Oh also a school being unlocked in a small town like this isn’t too abnormal conditions home town probably doesn’t have full on school shooters or stuff, but a library being unlocked just invites thievery . Not impossible but very improbable And even if you choose to not believe my arguments it adds just another huge hurtle for Kris knight to overcome. Not debunked just even less probable.

[@sarafontanini7051]

its actually been shown that the police in the town are kinda...shitty. Undyne spends more time CUASING problems then fixing them and napstablook has too much social phobias to even TRY doing anything. and if someone saw kkris sneaking around at night? they wouldn't pay it much mind, he's known for being a prankster and, as we saw in chapter 2, toriel was jsut mad that kris stole some pie, butdidn't say anything about him ost likely doing it at night, let alone express any surprise at the possibility. in fact, toriel even suggests that its NORMAL for Kris to just disappear for ages we also don't know who,if anyone, would be around at night. PLus Kris is suggested to be a bit on the short side and has dark hair and dark spots on his clothes, which mkae it easier to hide in night (is why people say to wear brighter coloured clothes when out at night)

[@krisspychissp]

@@sarafontanini7051 Since when did Kris’s clothes have dark spots? Last time I checked it was just green and yellow which we’re pretty bright. And even if Kris is short, and even though the police are said to be pretty shitty, it’d still be easy to see someone shuffling around at night especially with how slow Kris is it gives a lot of time to catch them. And also if mayor holiday is on the top of her house she’d also probably see Kris. But yknow that could not happen which would default back to my argument about breaking in for later, which was mentioned that the library may not be closed because the school isn’t. In a town like this leaving a school unlocked probably isn’t really all that dangerous, allows students to get like books or work sheets or study or whatever. And I don’t see any reason for anyone to enter the school, except for ig school shooters which, lets be honest, are there even guns in this universe? Point is school is safe. The library on the other hand has tons of books, and an entire computer lab! Alot more reason to keep that locked then the school. Also before I wrap this up, would Kris be able to make the dark fountain there? We know kris can probably only exist short times without the soul, given their zombie like shambling, and putting it in quickly after. So for this to work kris would need to: Go downstairs without a soul (so cery slowly), go outside very slowly, walk all the way to the library again very slowly, not get caught by any of the three “police” (nasptablook and undyne which I could see undyne being out there or not but Mayor holiday was established to be up there on her house, maybe all night), very slowly either open a library door or more likely if the door is locked, break into the library, without alerting anyone the next day, then make a fountain with (do they even have determination left at this point? Or is it gone from such a long walk?) then shamble back home not get caught get pie, and then put the soul back in. And ofc all the stuff we see the next day wuth Noelle and Berdly already having their books out on the other side of the table sitting down and studying has to be essentially ignored. All this, all this for a character who already has a huge spotlight to have an even bigger spotlight.

[@BasicViewer]

@@krisspychissp Well, the wet-nose bandits say that they tried to “sneak into that big house over the holidays”. The capitalization implies that “the holidays” is referring to the time of year, not the family (although it was still most likely the Holiday house) and currently it is near summer break, so that happened a while ago. And… taking a walk isn’t a crime. Even if it’s slow and zombie-like that’s merely weird, and everyone knows Kris is weird. At the end of chapter 2 the library is still unlocked. Now unless the Book-Blocking-Bird has a key (I don’t think there’s any indication that they work there) you’d think Berdly would usher everyone out and lock the door if the library were to be locked down every day. We don’t KNOW Kris can only exist for a short while. It’s possible, but not yet a fact. The zombie-like shambling happens before they even pull their soul out. It’s like… a 6 minute walk to the library at their pace. And that’s after doubling the time it took me to get there in case I didn’t match their pace right. I have no clue what you’re talking about with the determination thing. I don’t think there’s anything to suggest that. Berdly and Noelle appear at the table because that’s where the dark fountain was closed, just as Susie and Kris appeared in the unused classroom in Chapter 1.

[@nataliaborys1554]

In my eyes, the biggest point against Kris Knight is that so many characters would have to be in on the conspiracy. Ralsei *has* to be in on it, yes, I don't have an issue with that since there are clues that point towards him actually hiding something, but then also there are all the characters giving exposition about the Knight... to the supposed Knight. For example, if Kris is the Knight, then Seam is just standing there, telling the Knight with a straight face about the things that they themselves did. Wouldn't they rather go "Huh, it is strange that you ask about the history of our Kingdom. Failing memory is rather something old people like me get, hahaha" or something? Any kind of acknowledgement that it's weird for Kris to be asking this? Unless it's that, in their time in Card Kingdom, Kris has told everyone that if they ever come back noone is to acknowledge them as the Knight. And, like, I guess that's _possible,_ but it doesn't sound _likely._ And even then, Spades King is genuinely trying to kill the $#!% Squad, you can die it this battle, it's not like with Toriel in Undertale where she makes her attacks miss if you have 1HP left. Even if Kris told everyone to pretend they're not the Knight, King wouldn't, like, actually kill them, right? Especially when he had the perfect opportunity to act like he's all pacified and instead attacked everyone and _Kris specifically_ instead. Other than that though, I think Kris Knight is one of the most popular theories for a reason. I am pretty sure Toby at least wanted us to consider the possibility, given the ending of chapter 2 and all. I'm not, like, super convinced, but if chapter 3 confirmed it, I would probably buy it. For now I'm more of an Alvin Knight person.

[@sarafontanini7051]

counterpoint: did seam say he saw the Knight? is it even implied? (also in regards to "well how do they not know what he loos like"so far my biggest theories are that he was obscured by fog, perception works weirdly so maybe he was a giant while the world was forming or perhaps some otheer option we don't know about yet since we've never seen how it looks when a dark world is forming or even how a dark world appears")

[@nataliaborys1554]

@@sarafontanini7051 On one hand, no, Seam never says directly that they saw the Knight. On the other hand, if it was a giant, or a shadowy figure, or it appeared to them as an act of God, or the Knightvwas hard to perceive directly in any other way... why call it "a strange knight"? They don't even call it "The Roaring Knight" like it's some figure of mythical status, it's "a strange knight" like one of many beings they had seen. It is a good counterpoint tho :D I'm just trying to debate

[@gretchling5012]

i think chapter 3 is gonna either confirm or debunk kris knight. dark worlds conform to the will of those who create and enter them, so i think we will be able to ascertain whether or not kris is the knight based on how heavily chapter 3 plays into or deviates from established patterns from the first two chapters. and, based on how toby has described chapter three in the newsletters, it ain't looking good for kris knight, IMO... also, nice touch using megalovania for the player knight segment.

[@misadique845]

The knight isn't really built as a mystery. It's not emphasized at all in the game, we're just theory-brained. If Kris is the knight, the hook/the mystery would be their motivations. That'd be the main thing we're asking ourselves.

[@guiltyflygon]

I have to disagree. I think stuff like Dess/Gaster/Mystery man are all theory brained mysteries that probably won't impact the main plot for a long time, but the Knight is emphasized in both chapters while remaining vague about their intentions and even what they really are. Some of the depths we take the concept to try to solve it are definitely theory brained lol, but the mystery itself is front and center. Like, there's a whole dark and shadowy room in Queen's mansion where the butlers are musing about what the Knight could be, saying things like, "it might even be more powerful than the Queen." Not to mention the plot of chapter 2 is explicitly Queen's desire to "create a new Knight" out of Noelle, giving us insight and hints as to what the Knight might be like. Of the mysteries presented in Deltarune so far "who is the Knight?" has to be among the top three most popular and talked about even among casual fans along with probably "who contacted the secret bosses?" and "What's up with Kris?" The reveal of the Knight doesn't have to be earth shattering though. After all, if it is Kris that probably puts the reveal at the level of whenever Mayor Holiday finally gets shown after being teased in Asgore's house and by Queen and Noelle. I think the issue becomes, what benefit does Kris being the Knight get the story? I think about these things as a writer first and foremost, and there's really not much. Kris is already the protagonist with a lot of depth surrounding their motivations and actions. Why do they need to be the Knight too? Why not give that depth to another character so that they can also shine in the narrative? It'd be like if in Undetale, Asriel turned out to be Frisk somehow, and we learned that in Snowdin. It would probably still be interesting to unpack, but it would cost all of the intrigue of Flowey at the end of the game. I don't want to make it sound like it's impossible, or that I don't think Toby could make it work... I just heavily suspect Toby didn't leave us on the cliffhanger of "Kris is actually the Knight 100%" for years only to never even lampshade it a little since then... Especially since he did the exact same bait and switch when chapter 1 released.

[@sarafontanini7051]

about that scrapped intro: if memory serves correclty (though I may be wrong), toby fox said it would have shown the player going up some stairs or just moving up and the various villains of each chapter showing up one by one with the knight (who toby might just be saying outright is the knight cause the idea has, yknow, been scrapped) appearing last (and i think you would then go through a door or soemthign? I forget)

[@dev_the_gamer593]

25:30 im pretty sure this was actually from the undertale orchestra livestream or the deltarune playthrough livestream.

[@dev_the_gamer593]

Btw by deltarune playthrough livestream I specifically mean the one where chapter 2 was released.

[@krisspychissp]

18:20 Jaru would no Longer like to know your location (Tho he probably already does considering he definitely held you at gun point to make this comment)

[@Skypatroller_BenCD]

I did plan on making my Vessel is the knight theory before you but I prefer waiting for chapter 3 for lack of informations

[@enzoul777]

I’d suggest you to read Deltarune Oblivion Theory by wandydoodles for a compelling argument for Vessel Knight (though their most concise and recent document about it is in my opinion not as strong as the first one, I’d suggest reading the longer version)

[@funnypeashootercreature]

can we just say its toby fox himself doing it as he is the one writing the lore technically and all be happy?

[@guiltyflygon]

Lol

[@Flynnisthename]

I like to think kris is freaked out because they see the closet dark world and go “Wtf I didn’t make that!!! WHY IS THAT HERE???” It’d freak me out too

[@K0uzan]

Guiltyflygon my beloved

[@calebdemosthene284]

13:10 i mean spamton was trying to gain freedom(by killing kris but still)

[@Dgflameee]

Ooh new theory vid love these

[@Captancomplations]

🙋‍♀️ Mr flygon I have to go get my inhaler.

[@mrstickmantas]

2:10 I want you to know that if start a chapter 2 save without a ch1 base "the gift" defaults to MIND. Just putting it out there

[@pacattack2586]

So ust as my thoughts: The big three are Kris, Papryus, and Gaster - of those three I feel Kris is a bit stronger.

[@sarafontanini7051]

MY random cray knight theories jsut for laughs XD: Vriska Knight! -she wants to be a big hero or villain! -she thinks she's helping everyone! -She made a super cool outfit she wants to show off! -She thought maing fountains would get her treasure and/or xp! Jax (from amazing digital circus) knight: -"come on, it'll be epic." -"I was hoping for death and violence and explosions, that kinda thing!" -"I'm up for anything as long as it involves funny things happening to people" Toby Fox (stupid dog) knight: -He's appeared in both chapteers in some way or form so far -he's always fucking everything up and making a mess -"oops" -dogsong

[@Ray-hx3rm]

I don’t think kris knight is true but I think it’s definitely the most interesting

[@RichConnerGMN]

my take is that no, it's alvin

[@fissure12fish39]

are you going to do pizzapants knight? 🙏 Surely it is not insignificant that Spamton references Burgerpants when asked about the knight...

[@CalamitasCalliope]

Kris Knight my beloved 💕 Long story short it is definitely Kris Knight, but I do love you 💕💕💕

[@honestkyn718]

Isn't the fact we even have to have this video proof enough it isn't definitive?

[@lourdespachla6516]

my vessel is the knight.

[@QSBraWQ]

25:31 i think it was a newsletter

[@guiltyflygon]

A couple people said it was on the anniversary stream that tease CH2 which makes sense of why I couldn't find textual evidence of it lol.

[@godslaughter]

Currently, Alvin and Kris are the most sensible and most convincing candidates for being the Knight as both of them have expertise with religion and the occult, and what is religion other than just an esteemed and upper class version of the occult? Kris has studied the occult with Catti and there's a line (or two?) from the Poppups that hints at Kris having been researching it, while Alvin is quite literally the priest with direct access to the library due to family connections, as well as having a renowned father, compelling history, and access to books about religion and likely some sacred texts. I wouldn't be surprised if he knew the Prophecy, or even made it. Goddddd, I love the Alvin Knight theory so much.

[@godslaughter]

Also, love how you didn't even finish the sentence because of how painful the idea behind it is 😂 no gender or pronouns for the soulless!! Knowing the reality of biology, none of us have souls, so in real life, this wouldn't slide.

[@sahilhossian8212]

Lore of My Take On Kris/Vessel Knight momentum 100

[@ceresherve5084]

There is a little but of me in every body

[@RUINERS]

nubert knight

[@WhiteCresentKnight]

The description mentions Mewmore, but what song specifically?

[@guiltyflygon]

Oh, it's Professor Sycamore's theme remix. kzbin.info/www/bejne/ooeVcoeal9OCfJosi=MOE_5p2hz_bx_2k3

[@WhiteCresentKnight]

@@guiltyflygon Thank you!~

[@Tom-jg9de]

I honesly lice vesel knight sure they beary got any character but the idea of him is intresting to me lice imagine geting send to the code then somhow making the in fist darkword getting some love for beaing somting cald a "knight" Then You apear You that stoping his creation You that controling some poor kid and You that kill'd somany pepole

[@TheSkyGuy77]

I am the Knight : Batman

[@mintyflores7378]

Kris knight smells of red herring to me

[@ratweiler]

why are you smelling it

[@mintyflores7378]

@ratweiler I have a smell-o-vision

[@CGFillertext]

@@ratweilerherrings are smelly

[@ratweiler]

@@mintyflores7378 that is SO cool.

[@ratweiler]

@@CGFillertext thats true maybe it cant be avoided

[@skeletonlover3214]

Cool Videos

[@ofconsciousness]

Dude, I'm seriously pondering Player Knight now...

[@Pangolin-6312]

Cool

[@d0ntwearit0ut]

Guys I’m the knight I keep targeting characters who I want to have character development I’m sorry I didn’t tell you sooner /j

[@honestkyn718]

I just can't buy it. Also it's Alvin. We are in an Izanami in persona 4 scenario

[@Your_dear_friend9999]

In both chapters, the bosses technically defeat the gang until someone helps them from the outside. Perhaps Kris wants to get rid of soul using dark fountains, but it never works the way them wants.

[@sarafontanini7051]

Kris, seeing the player get saved for the 100th time: WHY WON'T YOU DIE

[@h3xid3x]

me the vessel it its pronouns

[@Max-ep5ir]

*huffs copium* chapter 3 any day now guys...