Guitar Neck Relief: An Interesting Scenario

[@kentharding5874]

I believe that I have experienced the issue with backbow occurring at live shows. As a guitar player I only realy ever experienced strings going flat. I was the bands tech, during the performance as the guitars went on and off stage over the shows run. I was seeing them comming off stage with the strings all sharp. At the time I thought it was either my set up or the guy messing with it unbeknownst to me. I would now firmly believe that it was the necks moving. Hmmm As a fore thought of live performance setups, for everyday practice guitars Id set the intonation as normally done. For the live show setup I would fine tune the intonation to the area of the neck that was played over the most. Lead guitars would be focused to the upper octave. I also tuned everything with the same tuner, pedalboards had tuners but they were always given a fresh guitar tuned by myself on my tuner. Great channel you have here!

[@HighlineGuitars]

@@kentharding5874 great insight. Thanks for sharing this.

[@nikblanchard9510]

great video, as always, and great tips. I'm sure you guys realize, but I don't hear to many people mention is, if you always end your truss rod adjustment with a tightening motion, you will reduce the possibility of getting that back bow from most of external forces. reason being, there is always going to be tension on the truss rod. I realize that nothing will keep necks made of wood from shifting but it really makes a huge difference. thanks for your time. nik

[@LS-wc6mr]

I have experienced this but it was due to extreme cold weather. I set up my guitar before a gig at my house, transported it to the venue through -30 C and then let it acclimate to the chilly venue before playing. By the time I was to go onstage the neck had backbowed so much that it was no longer playable. That's one of the many reasons I learned to bring two guitars to a show!

[@UnoUrong]

Happened to me yes

[@blakef413]

So at live shows, the stage lights cause everything to get hotter and hotter. As the strings expand from heat, the tension lessens and the mechanics of that make the neck go more to the direction of a backbow and the notes go flatter. Pretty sure the physics of this is all heat-related.

[@david25876]

Lots of confusion on this topic. Good explanation!

[@Shanehinch]

I am a new guitar builder and find your content excellent. I will be purchasing some plans from you. Thanks for all you do!

[@JWEmbry-wc7qi]

Hi Chris, I really enjoyed this info thanks for taking the time to explain it plus the Diagrams were very helpful for me as I am more of a visual learner, thanks again sir.

[@crazydiamondjr]

For setting action i will always capo the first fret to give what i feel is a true reading on the 12th fret. Back bow definitely happens whilst playing but i think it's mostly because of putting pull back tension while you're holding the neck and find it usually settles back down after playing. So a rotation of instruments will solve the problem during a gig.

[@IanHarsh]

As far as string gauge goes, I go with the thickest set that is comfortable to play for the style. The reason for this is that thicker strings are more stable tuning wise and I’m less likely to pull them sharp on accident by gripping or strumming too hard. I don’t have the finesse to play 8s or 9s in tune very well, or at least to my intonation standards, especially while playing with a lot of energy!

[@HighlineGuitars]

Good point. Most people talk about string gauge in relation to comfort and/or tone. I don't think I've ever heard someone mention tuning stability or intonation as a reason for their choice, but it make sense. Thanks for sharing this.

[@he11bent6]

Hand strength/issues certainly play a part in deciding string gauge and action/relief for some.

[@Stu66orn]

Could it be humidity from people breathing in closed venue. Humid air causes neck fluctuations.

[@heikoschwammle4650]

if you set the pickups to close to the strings the magnets would let die the stringmovement much quicker leading to less sustain

[@chrism9017]

Heat from the hands make things expand. Some aluminum-neck instruments were known for this; they literally had to be warmed up by playing before the tuning would stabilize.

[@JonLYF]

I do experience alot of this situation not in a gig but after setting up nicely, and customer was happy testing it out at my workshop, when customer bring back home and play for few days, the neck will develop a back bow causing the first few frets to buzz. I will always teach my customer how to turn anti clockwise on the truss rod if this happen. That's because Malaysia has a hot wheather and we always have aircond in house. The environment might change the neck and also new strings looses it's tension might cause it too.

[@HighlineGuitars]

That's why I setup my guitars as neutral as possible. I try to educate the customer that they'll need to make some adjustments after the guitar has acclimated in their environment. Sometimes they listen, and sometimes they don't.

[@neilfradenburgh]

@@HighlineGuitars They hear what they want to hear ;-)

[@lesblack413]

Atmospherics and string/truss rod tension must play a part in neck changes. Also, have the strings just been replaced and have not stopped stretching. For many reasons, performers like John Fogerty change guitars nearly every song. Sometimes to get a different sound, but also to allow his tech to check: tuning, neck up or down bow, controls etc. So many things to do to make the performer sound and play the best they can.

[@gearViewmirror]

For many reasons.....only one reason: he plays a gibson.....😂

[@ssl3546]

Yeah that sounds nuts, just have one or more extra guitars rather than botching the setup.

[@davidc1878]

From the description, I don't think the people described in the comment had multiple guitars and technicians off stage to re-setup each guitar between songs.

[@cesarwmp]

In my experience the air humidity, more than temperature, is the main factor in action/relief fluctuations: the higher the humidity, the lower the action. Thus, as I prefer a slightly harder to play neck than a buzzing inferno, I always set the relief in humid/rainy days.

[@sunn_bass]

I agree. Although I don't use the words harder to play, but like the word resistance. I was taught that all basses and guitars should have a little "resistance" when you play, not that you have to fight it. Just enough that the instrument is playable in most situations without having to constantly tweak the adjustments.

[@thomasbreene893]

Thanks, Chris. This subject is so damned fascinating to me, in many ways because I play bass and not guitar, and though the principles are probably the same, there might be more "tolerance" in terms of what bassists can live with to get the job done versus what guitarists are looking for. In that spirit, some random, amateur observations: My nephew (about whom I brag endlessly) is a bass player and a student at Oberlin. He lives in Maryland, and as the summer comes to a screeching halt and he prepares to go back to college in Ohio, he knows the change in climate will totally jack up the necks on his basses. The only way for him to overcome this is to take the basses to a local tech or learn to make truss rod and bridge adjustments himself. Moral of the story: If you are a player who changes climates, even if only a couple of times a year, you need to have some basic proficiency in truss rod and bridge adjustment (or else you'll have to pay). I encouraged my nephew to get a decent slotted straight edge and a solid set of tools to adjust the truss rod and bridge. Second, I would humbly argue that relief and radius differ a lot in terms of guitar versus bass. The longer I play, the more convinced I become that a bass -- especially an extended range bass -- needs practically ZERO relief and a VERY large radius. Now, I'll temper that statement by saying it doesn't necessarily apply for the "classic" or "traditional" designs we're used to (e.g., Jazz Bass, Precision, etc.). Those all have a distinctive feel, and I can see wanting to preserve it. But one thing I've learned from this China-made Warwick 6-string bass, which now belongs to my nephew, is that its radius is practically flat, and it performs best when the neck has ZERO relief. In short, basses are "coarse" in terms of these factors; it doesn't feel like adding relief or any of the other nuances that apply to guitar apply to bass. For my money, I want to start with a DEAD LEVEL neck, including the frets, and go from there. And so I'm not worried about relief or "ramping down" the frets at the end of the neck, etc. Just my two cents, as always!

[@wernergrunberger]

scale length is such a topic, especially for bass players, where personal preference, playability and tone come together

[@sunn_bass]

Amen. I used to be (for 35 years) in the 34" and 35" scale camp, but for the past 5 years I've incorporated a few 30" basses into the arsenal and the 5 builds I am doing are 30". Really digging all scales now. However for travel purposes, I built a 26" scale fretless many years ago with A-D-G-C tuning. It's a tiny beast.

[@michaelscott2269]

I’d love to see a video of the actual setting up the action on your guitar. For example I like lower action and am not sure how you go about start to finish, set the neck relief. Another topic is when you go from one string to another. Like going from 9’s to 8’s, as I’m doing now on a Squire Strat. Or 10’s to 9’s….! Thanks so much. Great channel fill of great info…Thanks….!

[@HighlineGuitars]

I have shown many setups over the years in my videos. Head to my channel page and do a search for "setup."

[@gurusuryan]

Regarding string gauge, it seems (and Rick Beato discusses it in a few of his videos too) that lighter gauges vibrate more, causing the output of the pickups to be higher compared to heavier gauges, leading to a more harmonically rich tone and more sustain.

[@MrAaroncissell]

Just a bit of information. On your video "The Truth Behind Magical Guitar Building Tips And Tricks" I have posted and am giving my apology for my comment. Thjis video reminded me of the other video and I own my mistake. Sorry for the issue.

[@mikeortega6072]

Lately ive tried to compensate in my tuning for a slight neck bending that happens, being aware of this is a big deal for me.

[@jeffmora9832]

I have a lot of guitars and I have a never ending neck issues with all of them …my music room tends to get hot and cold from day to day because summer days here in California whee I live can be hot 100 plus then my wife turs on the AC and turns the house into Siberia then back to a comfortable temp at night with out the sun beating on the house and with out the AC freezing the house from the inside out….do you think 1/4 sawn necks or 1/4 sawn plus carbon fiber reinforcement or just adding a reinforcement to my regular neck would stop them from moving

[@michael_caz_nyc]

Glad I got a Suhr - it's Rock-solid. The Tuning-stability and Action don't move. It's the most stable guitar I've ever owned/played. Phenomenal instrument.

[@WhitakerGuitarsandMusic]

When setting pickup heights on pickups that you didn't make or have no experience with, sometimes it would be a good idea to pull out your gauss meter and check the magnet strength. I have an old Harmony archtop that I put a cheap suspended pickup on, and then noticed that the sustain was much shorter than it should be. Turns out the magnet strength on the surface of the hum bucking pickup is over 800 gauss. A Kent Armstrong "slim bucker" I have (new in a box) is around 120 gauss on the surface, and around 85 gauss measured with a wood spacer - simulating an average string height. As to the neck relief going out of adjustment on stage during a performance, I have to wonder how much that has to do with heat - stage lighting, etc, combined with normal 98.6 degree body heat radiating from the hands.. The wood of a neck will not expand at the same rate as the steel truss rod, and the necks on some (I'm thinking heavy metal genre guitars like Ibanez) are really thin.

[@TomsonTheOne]

I wonder how much the weather plays a role in that scenario. I moved to central Canada with extremely dry Winters and humid Summers... I have a couple guitars that rarely leave the house, and when I take them from my stable 45-50% relative humidity basement then show exactly that described behavior. Within a couple of hours I have to adjust the truss rod.

[@davidc1878]

Very true. I love how all the armchair guitar technicians in these comments are poo-pooing the scenario without knowing the (probably) unusual conditions these musicians were playing in.

[@kaganozmeric9822]

Nobody mentioned the body heat, some people have higher body heat than the others. Once I know a ceramic artist who needed to wet their hands, because of their body heat the clay was drying quickly and started to flake. Normally our rooms are 18-24ºC / 65-75ºF; after constantly playing a guitar the truss rod might slightly expand because of the body heat and might cause a back bow

[@goodun2974]

@@kaganozmeric9822 , Perhaps there will be fewer problems maintaining proper neck relief on stage now that many performance venues are presumably using LED lights that generate minimal heat, compared to the hot running incandescent stage lighting of old.

[@ramoncastillo8090]

The heat that we produce in a performance, the lights, anything that would affect temperature can affect or make the wood on the guitar “move”

[@WindsurfMaui]

I'm building 2 Strat style partscasters. The unfinished body neck pockets have a slight up angle. I beleve a up angle neck makes a guitar harder to play. I want to sand down the neck pocket angle to reduce the neck angle. Am I causing a problem by reducing the neck angle to 0? Thanks for the help.

[@alamaralaa]

I have to wonder if this is a bigger (or only a) problem on guitars that have different fretboard material than the neck material. Like a maple neck and ebony fretboard. The neck could be acting like a bimetalic strip, which is a metal strip with 2 different types of metal bound together on opposite sides. A bimetalic strip will change shape based on temperature, because the amount that each of the different metals expand is different. It could be temperature or humidity that is changing in both pieces of wood and causing the fretboard to get longer a little faster than the back of the neck. That would cause the neck to bow backwards.

[@HighlineGuitars]

Interesting. You might be on to something.

[@VERBANDTREM]

On this topic, My 000-28 seems to have a pretty decent back bow when all the strings are off, but under string tension it's perfect. My other guitars don't seem to move as extremely as that. Wondering if I should change strings one at a time to stop it flexing so much in short time. I'm concerned that the movement will cause cracks between the neck and fretboard.

[@AntonyMoggridgeshonkyguitars]

I played a gig on a really hot afternoon and the guitar neck felt like rubber. It went to too much relief and with very sweaty hands was hideos to play. Ive often thought is a full length truss rod the way to go as it gives an equal bend along the entire length when you really only want slight relief from the 5th to 7th fret maybe? Of course as the neck gets thicker towards the body this helps with keeping that end straighter.

[@Stu66orn]

Can you make a video about woods you found great for guitar building. Since many guitar luthiers build their guitars from american woods as a tradition in other countries. Ever tried any woods from abroad?

[@HighlineGuitars]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mqnVpYuieJ50hbcsi=eNK4tqm2WXaBOPXH kzbin.info/www/bejne/r3e7iJKjhNKIrposi=pxphjtEpls5W97uX kzbin.info/www/bejne/kKiWaH6iirqdZ9Esi=kz2GsASvgVhzGUZ1 kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6jNnWOYerFkma8si=7Beaqdf1Sv6708mK kzbin.info/www/bejne/jqTYk5-XeL2noqcsi=cXI3CB3pE3owKJiC

[@goodun2974]

I would expect short-term changes in neck relief to be more problematic on guitars that have a fretboard made of a different wood than the neck itself because the expansion coefficient is likely to be different for Rosewood that it is for Maple, etc. Also, a rosewood type fretboard is often unfinished except for some light surface-applied oil, but the back of the neck will have a lacquer or poly finish that resists moisture from going in or out of it quickly. Finally, a fretboard that is darker than the neck may tend to absorb heat faster, from stage lighting or nearby heating vents or even from the players hands.

[@HighlineGuitars]

All good points, however, until someone can figure out how to test these ideas, we’ll never know.

[@SausagefingersMcGee]

I would thihk this might be caused by temperature differences. the truss rod gets warmer during the show and expands, causing backbow.

[@silentrabbit247]

PU height is down to "Sweet Spots" for the tone you want and the amount of sustain, ie best adjusted by ear rather than rules etc Also balancing the volume output between the various PUs is important.

[@robsvibe]

Is there a way to induce relief on a guitar that has a perfectly flat neck if the truss rod is already completely loosened ? Can using higher guage strings eventually correct this and bring back a slight up bow ?

[@MatthewWaring-o9b]

Yes higher gauge strings have more tension on the neck. Also some guitars have dual action truss rods. Research if your guitar has one, if so even if you think the rod is loose keep turning it counter clockwise till it starts to tension and bow up for relief. Check with the manufacturer and be absolutely sure before you attempt. Cheers

[@MOAllDa]

What book would you recommend for making electric guitars? Did you learn this from books? Love your guitars and appreciate you sharing your knowledge

[@HighlineGuitars]

Here's a paid Amazon Affilate link to the only book I read about making guitars when I first started: amzn.to/3AIACKi

[@Stu66orn]

Pickuo height is probably best when maximum volume and maximum dynamic range (least compression) is achieved.

[@sergejk]

It depends on temperature too! Cold - up bow - Warm,Hot back bow! I have Warmoth guitar. Neck is consisted of maple with rosewood fingerboard. Unfortunatelly it's not well enough prone to temp. differences. :(

[@LilYeshua]

The only time I've experienced back bow is when I purchased my four and five string Jackson basses from Sweetwater and the guitars acclimate to my area. Their warehouse is climate and humidity controlled. Being a novice bass player I usually set them up to factory specs. That way the basses will go from winter to summer conditions without having to adjust the truss rod. Of course when not playing them they stay in their cases and only come out to play in climate controlled building structures. I've had good success with my basses that they usually take a good set and don't move around hardly any. Also, I've learned from my mentor that got me into playing on how to take care of a guitar as his guitars look like brand new even after him playing some guitars he's had since new(25+ years old)and he plays them twice a week at our church. That's not counting the ones he plays at home

[@joseluisorellano69]

Happened to me once with a custom bass from a friend of mine. I finished the first set and the bass was unusable. Maybe the neck wasn't reinforced, or maybe the construction method of the neck wasn't the best one, or maybe the temp or humidity of the venue (it was very cold) made the neck move a lot, but the rattling and buzzing of the strings were terrible.

[@BluesCover]

Setting the nut hight or slots depth by "intonating" the 3rd fret. Then checking that it intonate correctly all over the frets. Now, the word "intonate" is used here as: when you press the string just before the fret and pluck it, it must be in tune or real close to be in tune. Most of setups I saw uses technique that involve measuring or feeling the gap from the string to the 3rd fret when you are pressing the string on the 1st fret. But I find it better to do the nut wile you are checking the intonation. And it must be the last stage of the setup process.

[@ghosthawk65]

How do graphite or titanium rod reinforcements affect one’s ability to adjust neck relief?

[@HighlineGuitars]

@@ghosthawk65 they make it noticeably more difficult.

[@ocdadd3775]

In an unrelated incident, quick question about building a guitar from scratch: what should the height of the nut slots be in relation to the height of the bridge saddles? My experience is that the bridge is always higher than the nut, but in theory, shouldn’t you be able to have uniform action the entire length of the neck if both are at the same height?

[@HighlineGuitars]

No. If you wanted uniform action (the strings parallel to the fretboard from the nut to the bridge), the action would have to be high enough to allow space for the maximum displacement of the antinodes which is usually near the 12th fret. You could do that, but it would be difficult and downright painful to press the strings down at the first fret because the action would be ridiculously high.

[@GaryArmstrongmacgh]

Yes... there's one consideration in string selection. In my personal experience, nothing below a 0.10 gauge set, regular or hybrid, has allowed me to also use the guitar to play slide. Since I'm a fan of many groups and musicians who did, I need at least one guitar that will. Of course, I have have my B-Bender set up with hybrid 0.9s. But the Strats all have 0.10s. My Epiphone Les Paul can go either way.

[@svgs650r]

If the string amplitude at the "nodes" = 0, how do you compensate for the amplitude for each string gauge at the "antinode"... wouldn't a certain amount of backbow be necessary to keep the action as minimal as possible?

[@HighlineGuitars]

You would drive yourself insane trying to compensate for this on a guitar because the nodes move as you press the strings down at different frets.

[@Doug-v9o]

Traditional single action truss rods are at the core of this issue. A single action truss rod is captive on each end so any expansion or contraction of either the neck wood or the truss rod itself, due to temperature and/or humidity, will cause the neck to move. Expanding wood will cause the neck to back bow while an expanding truss rod will cause up bow. Given the difference in materials, wood verses metal, the expansion coefficients are certainly different, at least for temperature. Where humidity is concerned, the wood is the culprit. Double action truss rods, like Warmoth uses in their modern construction, significantly reduce or eliminate the movement problem because the rod is essentially floating and so not affected by expansion/contraction. The amount of neck relief to use is a broad question. I think the common understanding is that some amount of neck relief is needed to eliminate string buzzing on a low action setup. While that may be true, too much relief can create a fret-out situation at the higher fret positions where the neck flattens out. Interestingly, the mathematics of string angle vs fret position work out such that the gap between the string and the next fret up from where you are playing is constant for a perfectly flat neck. And that gap is around 6 to 7 thousandths of an inch. As you increase the neck relief that gap does increase significantly for the lower frets but the break even point is around the 9th fret where the fret to fret clearance starts to drop below that of a flat neck giving rise to the "fret out" problem. This is all based on my own experience and modeling work, but it does seem to hold up in practice.

[@HighlineGuitars]

Great info. Thanks for sharing. It all makes perfect sense.

[@A.J.99]

I guess that back bow happened because of high humidity at the venue that's typical for crowded indoor events. The same effect can occur while playing guitar near big water source like a river, a lake or even a fountain.

[@steventsunami9506]

Straight guitar necks are a problem in Florida. When going from air conditioning to a humid gig on the beach, my necks can backbow so much they go more than 1/2 step sharp in tuning and fret out beyond the 12th fret.

[@MarkRawling]

Very interesting! Strong stage lighting/heat might play a part. I don't think back-bow after playing can be common though, because all those shredders with super low actions would have unplayable guitars by the end of the night - that doesn't seem to happen... Maybe people experiencing that need a new guitar instead.

[@HighlineGuitars]

Good point! Moisture in the wood will evaporate faster on a hot stage and cause the wood to move.

[@goodun2974]

​@@HighlineGuitars, Is most stage lighting done with cooler running LED lamps nowadays or are incandescents still in common usage?

[@sunn_bass]

Great description of relief, and great questions about performing situations. Live performance situations are totally different than studio. I personally think that so much info on the net comes from folks that only play in climate controlled environments. Live performances are not the same, especially outdoors on hot and humid days (I used to live and gig in Texas). That guitar with zero relief and less than 0.5mm action might work great in a climate controlled room, but in a live performance good, luck with that.

[@victormarinelli5660]

Neck design and build quality plays a big role in how a guitar neck will react. IMO.....Fender necks are the most 'rock solid" necks that I've experienced. But....guitar isn't about what's the best or what's perfect...

[@MatthewWaring-o9b]

Every guitar has a different structural rigidity. Always set up the guitar while standing up in standing playing position. Be extra mindful while performing on how much you are pulling back on the guitar against your body pulling it sharp. Set up the intonation as close as possible ever so slightly flat so you can pressure the notes and or pull the neck back up to pitch. It is alot easier to sharpen a flat note than it is to flatten a sharp one.

[@robphillips8351]

Body sweat, humidity causing backbow during performance, yep compensation with a little up bow fixes the issue

[@robphillips8351]

I believe it is probably better to set up the action and neck relief and then adjust relief per humidity and performance etc

[@kennyayala6189]

Sounds like those musicians would really benefit from something like carbon fiber reinforcement rods in the neck -- never thought about what an impact that might make for a touring musician who goes from one climate to another overnight. I also wonder if they were using unfinished necks, as I would think a neck without finish would be the most susceptible to huge swings in humidity (I know some players favor them for the feel of a raw neck, but I don't think the tradeoff is worth it personally).

[@bobless5517]

It is believed that the close installation of guitar pickups to the strings or a strong magnet can affect the sustain, since too large a magnetic field will slow down the string and prevent it from oscillating fully. Thanks.

[@HighlineGuitars]

I've tested that myself with ceramic and even neodymium magnets. My results indicated no difference for what it's worth.

[@ramlerendleg]

@@HighlineGuitars In my experience Strats can suffer from pickups being set up very high. I noticed that when a Strat has strings that sound like out of key or I notice something like an extra frequency that make a "brrr"-like sound (for lack of a better word) lowering the pickup can remedy that. I had the A5 1st gen Vintage Noiseless pickups in my Strat and had to lower them a lot to get rid of that. Now I have A2 Fat 60s in it and I can increase the height considerably. I put that down to the magnetic field being weaker with the current pickups. Never had that occur with humbuckers. But I guess you might know that already.

[@andyt5559]

What about the elephant in the room, if you're playing a gig and hopefully there are 2 or 3 thousand fans? All breathing, and after maybe 1/2 an hour sweating that's going to affect the relative humidity within the venue??

[@philliphanford2792]

Does seem highly unlikely but if you did experience that just once for live performance you would worry about the unlikely happening. Usually live performers have a backup guitar to get by.

[@George_Taylor_]

To solve this issue, these guys need to keep a truss rod wrench handy, and give the truss rod a quarter turn or so to tighten it slightly about halfway through the gig. Which is far, FAR preferable to deliberately setting up your guitar to have too high an action for the entire first half of your gig. That's not acceptable, in my opinion.

[@rawg277201]

Twisting a truss rod in the middle of a show is not a wise idea. Especially if dealing with a floating bridge for example- you would need a tech side stage to do this because it would take a retuning, perhaps redistributing the spring tension. This would all take time.

[@jeffro.]

Now I'm confused! I always thought that "relief" meant tightening the truss rod (to cause straightening of the neck) to "provide relief" from the tension of the strings. Now you're saying that "relief" and "string tension" are the SAME THING. I have to rethink everything! Nevertheless, i have a problem now with my one & only acoustic that i play every day at least an hour, sometimes more. My hands don't usually sweat a lot, but if they do, i always wipe then down when i quit playing. Ok, i DO need to put new strings on it, but that's NOT the current problem. I have already identified one fret that is slightly high on the treble side, i have obtained the tools needed to fix that when i do change strings. Still not the current problem! As i said, i play every day, at least an hour. Often several times in a day. However, about 2 weeks ago, I had surgery. Since then, i haven't been able to play because of unexpected pain & swelling. (More so than i was told there would be, too!) At least, until a couple days ago. So i tried to play my guitar, but i noticed the strings were "dead" above the 8th or 10th fret. I know i need new strings, and there are several other things I'll address when i do that (like polishing the frets, cuz they're gritty!). But, I don't know what's going on with the dead strings on all the high frets! I thought maybe the problem was a humidity change (i have a sensor in the room, indeed it's 10% dryer than normal, even though it doesn't feel that way outside!). I tried loosening the truss rod (counter-clockwise), but it feels like it's as loose as it can be! Like, NO tension! In fact, I'm half afraid the nut will just fall out into the body of the guitar! WTF is going on n, and how can I be fix it? BTW, when I first identified that one "high" fret (yep, checked it with a rocker), I was able to get the guitar "more playable" by loosening the truss rod, about 1/2 turn almost (it seemed loose then, too, so I was surprised it made a difference). Does that make sense? Can you (or anyone) help me?! BTW, one more thing: I'm gonna make a brass plate to go inside the guitar to hold the balls of the strings, instead of depending on the stupid pegs. Over the years, I've had many problems with pegs coming loose. When the guitar first was shipped to me, in fact, several of them were "popping out," and I had to seriously loosen the strings in order to get the balls set against the sound board properly, and the pegs seated. But they don't fit exactly right, they're a bit loose for the holes. I have another (cheap) guitar that's unplayable due to pegs that are too loose. I finally have tools to fix that, but it's a cheap guitar anyway, so.... So, in addition to helping me solve the dead strings problem (above 8th fret or so)... does anyone have comments about the brass plate that will fit inside the guitar against the sound board, under the bridge? I think it will also help couple the sound to the wood. Ok, that's all for me! Thanks for the video! Great stuff! I'm 'scribed! 👍👍

[@HighlineGuitars]

Like so many guitar terms, relief is confusing. It refers to the amount the neck deviates from dead level.

[@AnimalJohn85]

Before i watch all of this (and prob get a better explanation for it, currently at 5:19)... If a guitar starts the gig perfectly set up with zero buzz and perfect action couldn't the change come from the bridge vibrating itself lower? I'm only throwinng this out there as I have had this happen personally through any kind of sesh (usually on cheap n nasty hardware but has still happened). Never had a neck pull itself back in the space of a couple of hours playing unless theres a drastic change in conditions but thats normally down to tuning instability... A proper intresting one is this, gonna stop waffling and watch the goodness :) Cracking (so far) as always sir :)

[@ej1_drew]

cooler environment causes a slight back bow for me. not even the tension of eight strings can prevent it.

[@HearGear]

i´ve never heard about guitars changing the neck relief during playing the guitar, how ever I think the guitar build can not be very good if that's the case, poor wood quality or something like that, I know things can happen to a guitar that sits for months without anyone using it but that's another story. I totally agree with you when it comes to building new guitars, I do the same, I set up the guitar to a rather neutral setting so the customer can do what ever he/she like or prefer, my builds just as your builds are very stable builds that always stay in tune and dont move the neck relief to much over time.. I would believe.. thanks for the video.. :D

[@artysanmobile]

I have 10 instruments, 5 of which I perform with, and I have never experienced a change in my set relief while playing. I’ve certainly seen the relief change on guitars that are not yet stable, but never on a full stable neck set. That would make me crazy!

[@Vermonster23]

That is interesting… I have never encountered in my 50+ years , a guitar that would change neck bow over the course of the evening. I’m not saying it’s impossible, I just have no idea about the quality of that guitar. Quite strange.

[@davidc1878]

It is probably a combination of the local climate and the conditions in whatever venue the people were playing in. There are an awful lot of people who live in parts of the world where climate conditions change drastically and constantly.

[@gastondubois896]

I think that, based on one commenter, this "up bow" phenomenon is purely anecdotal. Most of the comments I'm seeing here have not witnessed this. Personally, and also, purely anecdotal, I have never encountered this when playing for multiple hours at a time, which is often. This is either on my electric guitars or bass. I watch a lot of rig run-downs. If they're talking about neck setups, I almost always hear that the fretboard is set-up virtually straight.

[@carlosroubert8646]

Hi: I would like to know, why guitar makers industry doesn’t change to a more stable neck materials not affected by weather conditions. I believe it’s time for a change! I will appreciate your opinion deeply. Thanks!

[@HighlineGuitars]

Good question! I'd say it's tradition. Once the boomers are gone, that tradition will likely die with them. There will be a few younger holdouts who yearn for anything old school, but they will be few and far between. Unfortunately, most highly stable, modern materials are not sustainable and are usually toxic to work with.

[@shadowghst7704]

Maybe that was why some Martin guitars have that “strata bond” necks.

[@improvizor]

I don't think this is possible unless the guitar is really bad and the truss rod isn't doing its job properly. But a guitar that bad wouldn't be used in a gig.

[@robertsteinberger]

@@improvizor unless it has the right brand name on the headstock, then people will justify using it anyway..

[@davidc1878]

Just because you have never experienced this it doesn't mean others have not or are wrong. I cannot fathom why so many in the comments cannot seem to understand that there are people playing guitars in all kinds of climatic conditions and in strange venues with less-than-ideal atmospheric conditions.

[@improvizor]

@@davidc1878 And I don't think you understand how a truss rod works. There's no room for the wood to bend in either direction if the truss rod works as it's supposed to.

[@BluesIsDerBeste]

​​@@improvizor Lol, I don't think you understand how it (or general low level physics) works. It puts a force (and resulting tension) on the wood to bend it in a certain way and the wood will try to counteract that (action = reaction) when storing tension. Now if the wood tenses up and thus adds another force by itself, like it might be the case with changing humidity conditions what do you think will happen? The balance between the 2 forces shifts and the neck will move to the point where it is in balance again.

[@mikebozik]

Kind of surprised you've never heard of this... The neck can move in a matter of minutes!!! I experience it every day in my living room, depending on the weather. The ideal setup for a guitar neck is perfectly flat. However, a little bit of relief is required if you want some insurance. Depending on the quality of the wood and design and build of the neck, that neck is going to move. Guitars have to be acclimated before they are performed on. In a studio environment where humidity and temperature is controlled, this is a minimal problem. But outside, forget about it. Every time you pick up your guitar and check the tuning, it will tell you if the neck has bowed or straightened. If it is sharp, you're going to have to loosen up the truss rod a little. If it's flat, you're going to have to tighten up the truss rod. Obvious stuff to me.😊

[@Tonetwisters]

I would rather have a straight neck and raise the bridge a bit. And I've been playing for 62+ years.

[@sgt.grinch3299]

This is a new phenomenon for me. I have never seen or heard of this. A strong neck should not move from the set up after the string change.

[@freiermann7]

I think the neck movement during a show is from heat. Going from ambient to body temperature.

[@scottakam]

I prefer a slight amount of up bow vs. straight for a practical reason. Any player can quickly check the neck relief by pressing the string down at the first and last fret. No tools required. If you try the same technique with a straight neck, you really can't tell if the neck is straight or if there is a back bow.

[@bryantrockfield9865]

I personally prefer a straight neck... no relief....

[@eddiebrown202]

Wow! Had to check the calendar to see if it was April 1st! 😂

[@leoburton642]

A Straight neck, with tapered frets, and a correctly set truss nut, and you should be trouble free, Acoustic or Electric. The truss rod, wants to be straight, and when set right, it'll hold the neck there. Unless it's a garbage neck to begin with, as already said by others.

[@vw9659]

Without actual objective measurements of relief before and after a gig (ie with a relief gauge), I think it's probably just speculation that the guitar really developed a backbow during a gig. Without that proof, I think it's equally likely for example that a player who thought they liked a straighter neck (than most) found that to be impractical in actual performance (without the neck ever moving). And so the solution would be to set a more conventional amount of relief.

[@HighlineGuitars]

If the guitarist (aka the customer) says his/her guitar neck is bowing during a performance, you as a luthier have to listen to them or they'll find another luthier to fix their problem.

[@tonyv7055]

What would cause the neck of a guitar being used on stage to back-bow? While on stage? Seems to me something else is going on...

[@gastondubois896]

In addition to my previous comment: I NEVER set-up my guitar with relief. This would only affect string buzz when playing in the open or first position. My belief is that this neck relief tradition is carried over from acoustic guitars from 60 years ago, and earlier. I estimate that I play in the open or 1st position maybe 20-30% of the time. Having a neck relief, which is usually occurring between the 5th and 12th fret (or so), actually hurts string buzz for me. Imagine the relief, or trough, that you're pressing down into when fretting around the 7th fret. It actually can make string buzz worse. As Einstein once said; to understand a problem, visualize it to the extreme. So, in this case, imagine the neck relief (or trough, as I called it) as a deep canyon that you're pressing the string down into, say, at the 7th fret. The string coming out of the "canyon" would be hitting the canyon rim at the 12th, or whatever, fret. I hope this helps visualize what I'm describing. Additionally, as I said in my previous comment, I watch a lot of rig run-downs. If they're talking about neck setups, I almost always hear that the fretboard is virtually straight.

[@terryohlsson2941]

Prroperly reinfirced necks typically don't suffer from this. Carbon fiber necks can totally illimanate these issues, but are costly .

[@drisiguitars]

I think those two players were very wrong and they just play harder as the time goes by because of ear fatigue.

[@popsfereal]

Yep. I agree. Unless the guitar was a real POS I can't see a guitar losing it's setup over the course of an hour or two.

[@edpetrikk2027]

Get a carbon fiber neck…Problem solved 😊

[@karldettling5981]

To get the very best possible action on a guitar all the way up the fret board? You need to put a very slight rise in the fret board from the 10th fret to the 22nd fret. This makes the action as low as possible all the way up the fret board. Getting this rise is "risky" to do, but if you want the ultimate action this is the only way you can do it. You still need a very slight neck relief for the ultimate action because your strings viberate the most distance in the center. I am the first person in the world to figure this out. So thank me dudes?