Chapter 225 Ft. Ben Townley - Gypsy Tales Podcast

World Motocross and AMA Champion Ben Townley made the trip across the ditch to support his son Jagger racing at the Australian Nationals. We took a couple of days out of the studio to do some one on one coaching with Ben (full video coming soon) and then to catch up for the podcast. Bens first appearance on the podcast was in 2019 where we went deep into his career, but this time, we wanted to do a podcast that matches our phone calls during the week.
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[@brandonperdue5988]

Ben you're the man. I watched you ride at Budds Creek the first time you and Rattray came to race.. awesome. I've always been a fan since watching you rip on a KTM 125 that day in Maryland.

[@var4113]

BT needs to be a regular like sleeter, dudes one of the funniest most insightfull people in the sport

[@Jordz711]

That episode was your best one yet for me. I love the insights, the perspectives and depth. There was a point where you said "I'm just banking on this being interesting..." At that exact point, I hadn't been MORE interested in a podcast before lol. Great podcast boys.

[@Gpx111]

If there were more ben townleys in the world the world would be a better place .what a cool guy

[@nzsnowsoljah1012]

Chur, allways good to listen to a BT podcast. Should try get Levi Sherwood on!!!

[@Schylle]

Ben is my new favorite rider. Loved this podcast, especially the technique and mxon talk. David from sweden

[@dylanbagovits5277]

BT Bro the level and detail you go into with how you explain things is amazing mate so good watching and listening to you perspective personally I wanna see more of this !!

[@andrewdehne8932]

The coaching segment is 100% gold content. Would be hyped to hear more of it.

[@crashtestpanda]

I have had several coaching days and I find them massively useful but friends don't seem to grasp the idea of how much they help. I still struggle jumping and most of that is nerves but more training and exposure will help.

[@AUSTIN_457]

Hey lads I'm definitely a viewer that enjoys the technique talk ALOT. That and bike setup stuff. Good pod 👌

[@dirtysixracing5190]

Enjoy and agree with most of your stuff lads, but I reckon your off the mark with the Star Yamaha / Loretta’s shit show deal. The bike dollar value has to be looked at for sure, but the rules been there for decades. I reckon Allessi’s was claimed back in the day also. So if Star are still stupid enough to still risk their IP, too friggin bad. Apparently PC built Ryders ‘42k’ bike with all non-factory aftermarket fruit only, knowing the claim rule could expose their IP (smart). Just my 10cents lads. Ben’s insight is actually pretty good,for a kiwi… Keep the content coming ✊

[@El_krux]

Great podcast guest with a lot of insight. Very interesting.

[@Schylle]

Acording to weege on the latest matthes show, savatgy rode so great at budds because he’s been working alot at his roll speed during the week. Doing motos with no brake or clutch. Would be cool the hear someone like Ben or even Joey himself talk about this. Cheers

[@malsarahsatchell9890]

Just me looking from the outside in, Yamaha got caught with their pants down in Loretta and did want anyone to see their IP 😳 hanging loose in the breeze as it were 😂

[@maaduece5132]

Yeah im not sure how much ip could be on a bike thats only 2 x msrp . Clearly more trick stuff than what the budget is supposed to be , .

[@alfredk471]

I have an idea that I think will improve racing (road/MX/off-road) motorcycles by making them easier to control. One of the most important areas for improving motorcycles, particularly racing motorcycles, is fitting the bike to the rider, i.e. improving the rider machine interface. The rider is basically a non-variable, one cannot change the human body, so one has to fit the machine to the human. Ease of control Improving the controls makes the motorcycle easier to control which translates into more control, more control makes higher speeds possible. You improve the controls by making them physically easier to operate, requiring less force and also less movement. Hence hydraulic disc brakes and clutches. Also by simplifying their operation or even by reducing the amount of controls. Less complicated controls or fewer controls puts less load on the rider by simplifying the task of controlling the bike. Electric bikes do this by eliminating the clutch and the gear selector. Moving the rear brake control to the handlebars (on electric and rekluse bikes) also does this because there is often a conflict between riding on the balls of your feet and the need to brake and the need to put ones foot out in right hand corners, and the need to weight the outside footpeg and need to brake in left hand corners. The gear selector also presents these problems. Here is a copy of a letter I sent to KTM R&D Department explaining my idea for improving a rider's control of their motorcycle. KTM R&D Department I have an idea that I think will improve rider control of off-road/motocross motorbikes. It could be utilized particularly on electric, but also with fuel injected, drive by wire compatible, motocross/off-road bikes. The twist grip throttle is the best practical option for controlling power and acceleration on carbureted, internal combustion engined motorcycles, but it does have a drawback, especially for motocross and offroad motorcycles because it requires a lot of movement and results in the rider lowering their elbow and/or a kinking their wrist when applying throttle. The elbows up "attack position" is pretty much established form in motocross/off-road riding. Most motocross trainers agree that a lowered elbow results in diminished control of the motorcycle because lowered elbows reduce impact absorbing ability and are awkward in a ride forward, shoulders over the handlebars, "attack" position. A kinked wrist is not good for impact absorption either. A twist throttle makes the 'elbows up' position difficult to maintain, it results in asymmetry when throttle is applied, with one elbow up, the other down, the lowered elbow causing the shoulder to drop and upper torso to move to the side. Watch the start of any motocross race, including GP's and the AMA Nationals, all the elbows are up until the gate drops and then all the right elbows drop. (check here at 7.05min kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHXSfHxmnJ6GbJY and here from 0.00min kzbin.info/www/bejne/kHLSlJmNabGZodk ) All these drawbacks are amplified when the rider is standing. Regripping the throttle is the advised method of mitigating this, however this is less than ideal because it involves briefly letting go of the throttle grip to regrip the throttle when opening or closing the throttle. There is also asymmetry with the rider's connection to the handlebar with the left hand having a fixed non-moving grip and the right hand, a moving grip. The left hand/elbow can easily be locked into the elbow up, attack position but the right elbow is continually moving up and down.I believe that asymmetry lessens control. Having one elbow up and the other flapping up and down, having one fixed grip and one moving grip.is not ideal for maximum control either. Try going through supercross whoops with one elbow down. Regripping also lessens control. Try to regrip while skimming supercross whoops. If you regrip to keep your elbow up and you suddenly need to decelerate you can end up not being able to completely shut off leading to an unexpected surge or "whiskey throttle". Proposal I propose that instead of having the position of the throttle-grip determine the amount of throttle and power, one take advantage of modern electronics (load cells) and have a mechanism that determines throttle opening according to pressure, i.e. twist force rather than throttle grip position, so instead of the position of the throttle grip determining the amount of throttle, the amount of throttle is determined by how much pressure or twist force the rider applies, with negligible actual throttle tube movement. (load cells are pressure sensors used in electronic scales and give a weight reading with negligible movement of the scale) In internal combustion motorcycles, a standard production throttle tube assembly could initially be used but with rubber stoppers allowing less than 2mm of resisted movement and instead of the throttle cable being connected to the throttle body, it's connected to a lever that applies pressure to to a load cell, the load cell being connected to a drive by wire throttle control unit that increases throttle opening when the load cell signals increased pressure. Later, if my system takes off and goes into production the pressure sensor would probably be built into the throttle housing much like a position sensor is built into the throttle housing of current ride by wire motorcycles. The optimum ratio of pressure to throttle opening will need to be determined by testing. One could even offer the option of individual tuning of the pressure to throttle opening ratio by the rider to their personal preference, similar to the different throttle tube cams that KTM currently offers .The thing with different throttle cam profiles is that a quick or short pull throttle reduces arm movement which is good but lessons throttle control which is bad, so there is always a compromise between minimum movement and throttle control. A twist pressure throttle is a solution to this problem. Turning up the pressure to throttle opening ratio would be the equivalent of having a long pull throttle (for good throttle control) without the downside of lots of (+-35 degrees) throttle tube movement. continued below...

[@alfredk471]

Benefits The benefits of my throttle control mechanism will be; far less movement needed to control the throttle,resulting in an easy to maintain, locked in, stable, symmetrical high elbow "attack" position, especially while standing, no need to kink ones wrist when accelerating, no need for regripping when accelerating and decelerating, increased connection with the handle bar due to handlebar grip symmetry and therefore increased feel and control. With both handlebar grips being basically fixed, non-moving, like with downhill mountain bikes, connection and feel with the handlebars and therefore control of the motorbike should improve, minimum movement (probably less than 2mm of movement) when applying throttle, much less than a short pull throttle cam but with the throttle control of a long pull throttle cam, but better because all that movement (+- 35 degrees) can actually make precise throttle control more difficult, increased front brake control. The lever positions are fixed and on the clutch side, your hand is always in the optimum position for reaching the clutch but your right hand is always moving in relation to the front brake lever. With a non-moving throttle control your right hand is always in the optimum position for reaching the front brake. Having one grip that moves, feels natural and normal to riders because that is all they know, so they might have doubts about the benefits of having both grips non-moving, but imagine if both grips moved like the throttle grip, would that not decrease handlebar connectivity and therefore control and would that not make reaching the clutch lever more difficult and therefore lessen clutch control? So conversely having both grips non-moving should increase handlebar control and front brake control. It should benefit riders with limited right wrist mobility. (wrist injuries are common in MX/offroad) Motorsport ergonomics Improving the design of the machine for better integration with the rider. The better we fit the machine to our bodies, the better we can integrate our bodies with the machine and ultimately our nervous system, the better the feel, the better the control, the faster the rider can go. Ultimately it's about being connected to your machine, so that the bike feels like an extension of your body. The rider most intune with their machine is usually the fastest. A symmetrical connection to the handlebars. Not many would argue that having both grips move like the throttle grip would diminish rider control of the machine, conversely having both grips nonmoving should increase control. Engineers and mathematicians like symmetry and I'm sure so would motorsport ergonomists. Testing Proof of concept tests While I am convinced that having two non-moving grips will increase handlebar feel and increase rider control with the rider being able to lock in to the attack position, keeping the right elbow up, I also believe that a twist pressure throttle will actually increase throttle control. The only way to prove this is by actual real world testing. Top riders and professionals have spent much of their lives using a twisting throttle grip and how difficult it will be to adapt and familiarize is a question that can only really be answered by actual testing. Test riders might have to spend some time relearning an action that they have gotten used to over many years of riding. However it might not take long because the actions are so similar. One would need to find the optimum settings for the ratio of pressure to throttle opening, there is even the option of a progressive, non linear, pressure increase to throttle opening ratio. (it might increase throttle control) Only once they have totally familiarize themselves with this new action, found the optimum pressure to throttle opening ratio and are completely comfortable with it, will one be able to determine if this new control device does indeed improve rider feel,comfort, control and ultimately speed. Maybe initial proof of concept tests would be easier, less complicated and cheaper to do on an electric bike like the Freeride Electric (or even KTM's prototype electric motocross bike) rather than converting a SXF to ride by wire. Initially I would suggest a high pressure to throttle opening ratio for safety, making it less likely that too much throttle is inadvertently applied and then turning up the sensitivity i.e. lowering the pressure to throttle opening ratio until an optimum is found. One way to test throttle control, once the rider has familiarized themselves, and feels comfortable with the new system, is to see if they can wheelie comfortably. Also it would be interesting to see how first time kiddie riders on SX-E 5 respond to a pressure throttle. Three scenarios in a proof of concept test 1. The rider never gets comfortable with the pressure throttle and fails to reach the level of throttle control and overall control they have with the twist throttle or some unforeseen issues arise. 2. It takes some time for the rider to adjust but they persevere and then begin to notice the benefits mentioned above. 3. The rider quickly adapts because the actions are so similar and they quickly feel the benefits. Riders seem to adapt very quickly to the rear handbrake offered on electric and automatic Rekluse clutched dirt-bikes. When sitting on my couch trying to imagine a twist pressure throttle I thought it might be difficult to adapt but then when I actually rode my off-road motorcycle while imagining/simulating having a twist pressure throttle, I was surprised at how easy it seemed. In my 'real life' simulations it actually seems advantageous in tackling hard enduro type obstacles like logs and rocks. The benefits seem greater when simulating having a pressure throttle while standing. Changing something that has an 80 year tradition will undoubtedly meet resistance from engineers, management and riders. Real progress can only be made when norms are challenged. On the one hand, changing the controls, controls that have not been changed in 80+ years, may seem revolutionary but on the other hand, the actions are so similar that it's not as radical as some might assume. With the extremely high level of professional motocross today, even small advantages can significantly affect results. Every advantage, even small advantages, can make a difference between winning and losing. Real progress often involves out of the box, revolutionary ideas but a lot of good, innovative ideas are initially rejected. My idea can be seen as both revolutionary and evolutionary. The idea of changing a fundamental control like the twist position throttle with a twist pressure controlled throttle may be revolutionary but the actions required by the rider are similar enough with the traditional twist position throttle control that it could be viewed as evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Unfortunately twist force throttle control can only be implemented on motorcycles with drive by wire capabilities besides of course the coming electric bikes. Rumours have been circulating for the last couple of years that drive or ride by wire is coming to motocross bikes but with the current bikes it would require installation of a ride by wire throttle control unit. Converting a pressure control throttle to traditional twist throttle would be simple, so having the option for older conservative riders to convert back to the traditional throttle control (though it would be ride by wire) should not be costly. Summery Motorcycle riding is a balance sport and having controls that require large movements, like the throttle control, can upset that balance. Clutch and front brake controls are fine but the throttle control simply requires too much movement. My proposed throttle control mechanism will result in much less movement when controlling the throttle, it will allow the rider to lock-in to a symmetrical elbows up position which should result in a stable, symmetrical high elbow position and stable upper body position and it will eliminate the need for regripping when accelerating and decelerating with the added benefit of both grips being fixed instead of only the left grip being fixed, and the right grip being loose and moving which should improve feel and control, and improve access to the front brake. With the coming electric bike revolution the traditional foot controls will be eliminated. This will eliminate the need to lift ones feet off the pegs when using the back brake and shifter. Lifting ones feet off the pegs diminishes control of the motorcycle and with the elimination of those archaic controls it will make sense to replace another archaic disrupting control, the twist position throttle control with a twist pressure controlled throttle. I also think my idea would be particularly beneficial in hard enduro and trials and maybe even in the high precision world of motogp. Please let me know what you (KTM) think of my idea. Thank you Alfred Karius. PS. If KTM does decide to test my idea and if they do find it beneficial and decide to patent it and use it, I hope they have the integrity to reward me for my idea.

[@yoda68zac11]

Awesome podcast this. Loved watching BT in the day, Mr Smooth lol. Full respect for giving so much back to the sport now too. I gotta say, it sucks but Star Yamaha have made this mess. Haiden D's not cheating but if Star put parts on that bike that weren't available and they had to break this rule to not let them out, then yeah, Star Yamaha are cheating. That's the point of the rule, don't do it. Don't forget where these companies who are investing get their money from in the first place and what they want from their investments. Its brand not an individual, e.g Haiden could be anyone. Its brand they care about. I wish the whole thing had of been handled more professionally and in the end, Brennan should have the bike. I don't think the bike is the reason he's sooo fast but Brennan doesn't get a bike because Star Yamaha lose money? Pfffft, like we should care about that if they put parts on it they shouldn't. I'm a little new to the party, loving content, have you had Josh Coppins on recently? As another kiwi, would be cool to hear what he's up to too ✌️

[@jakebooth9433]

It would be huge if team Australia won MXON. We won the speedway teams championship this year for the first time in 22 year and to top it off with an MXON win would be huge for Australia 🇦🇺

[@meriksparg8399]

The event you guys reference in the beginning and you mention the track, sorry not from Aus. Can you post a link about the event or some videos of it. Would love to enjoy the stoke behind an event that gets you guys so amped. Always been a fan of BT. Edit: Also really enjoy the technical talk, wish the emphasis BT mentioned on the "why" in coaching. That would truly have made such a difference on my racing before. Edit: Just commenting through it, Jett vs Hunter. I feel like Hunter is just like I was, there is so much more there and he is just in his head. Spot on to let go. To almost ride a little like an amateur, no worries, just let go.

[@matcmusic]

Is this a podcast about how jase was taught how to ride a bike…? It’s cool to hear how though 😎

[@eddietoner7656]

Would love u's to come chill here.. Bellurgan Park

[@chrisb7193]

Bike claim is to prevent factory bikes at an amateur event. Level the playing field. Fair bit of Deegan brown tongue coming out of Gypsy.

[@rogerw3818]

No one has called the Star bike a "cheater". If Star is afraid of losing highest cost, highest level items for a dirt cheap price, then don't put it at risk by racing it in an event that point blank tells you it can be had. And Haiden performing like he did in moto 3 proves the stupidity of Star's decision to bring such parts in the first place.

[@zingerbox4573]

I'd say a large chunk of the comments I've seen on social is calling Haiden and the bike cheating, granted they are extremely casual fans who wanna cling to drama but were still part of the narrative getting spread by some parties.

[@rogerw3818]

@@zingerbox4573 True on the comments from the bleachers, but no one actually in the game has ever made that claim. The Deegan acolytes grabbed hold of the "cheater" because it's a perfect deflection. This whole sorry affair has stained everyone, and the retaliation against the claimer will last for the rest of his life, and he followed all the rules.

[@coreybennit9197]

It took me digging into the story for a solid day and reading/watching all the different virsions of the "cheating" story to understand it in Jase's light, I also had the same feeling of most at first, BT calling them legal cheater bikes was abit off, , At the end of the day Brennan was a sponsored Yamaha rider and decided to do that. It is a rule and im not against it, BUT, he already is representing Yamaha, to go out on his own, plan, work, and save up the money to do this "claim" on a deegan bike that would obviously have big publicity, without consulting the sponsor he is representing, Yamaha, was a pretty lame thing to do, But it has brang attention to a outdated rule and give him alot of attention, Brennan is already a decent rider, picture if that energy/time/planning/work was put into self improvement instead of an internet publicity stunt, maybe hed have a Star Yamaha bike. @GYPSY TALES PODCAST