Hall effect cam/crank sensor operation and testing Part 2 (an SD Premium video)

[@RAFICKDAMISONMOYO]

Hey Paul, You are really a Man who making me to be the professional Auto Electrician based on the knowledge, Skills and Experience you are giving me through your KZbin channel Videos. Thank you for Whole Life ❤❤❤

[@Okie-Tom]

Very good Paul, thanks for the video. I am testing a 2005 PT Cruiser GT that is misfiring at highway speed acceleration and backfiring. On the Uscope the cam sensor has a weird waveform when I back probed the signal wire. Not square wave at all. More sine wave looking with lots of noise in the signal. I need to do more testing. I am 63 years old and just now learning to troubleshoot my vehicles. Your videos have been indispensable! Thanks, Tom

[@ScannerDanner]

Thanks Tom! IF you get stuck, don't forget about my forum on my website. IT is free to join the forum www.scannerdanner.com/forum/post-your-repair-questions-here.html

[@justinh4866]

as much as i watch your field work videos and come to class im disappointed that i wasnt subscribed yet. it was because i got too cought up in applying my knowledge that u just gained to get a job done. i have 18 years of experience under the hood and im still learning a lot each day. thank you Scanner Danner.

[@ScannerDanner]

for hall effect bypass testing, just a regular test light is fine. When you want to be careful is when testing computer driver circuits. This is when a lower amperage test light or LED test light is ideal. I would say that you want one that draws under 100ma to be safe. An LED test light may not work for this bypass test.

[@SS-U23]

Thank you so much. What you taught us through this video is really helpful and valuable. I am so happy with your teaching and training. God bless you.

[@ScannerDanner]

This is an example of the training videos I have available from my website. Come check out ScannerDanner Premium when you can. I know for sure you will love it. There is a 14 day free trial and it is $11 a month to be part of my training classes. www.scannerdanner.com/join-scannerdanner-premium.html Hope to see you there!

[@nickayivor8432]

KNOWLEDGEABLE Sir ScannerDanner 🙏 Thank you 👍 amazing tutorial ❤ it Sir ScannerDanner From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧

[@douavang9815]

Thankyou..i love how u teaching to understand for aperson which I don't no..thankyou!

[@philipar6787]

Great teacher Sir. Paul Thanks once again

[@SteveRobReviews]

Northern Canada/ Native reserve. One week contract to teach advanced vehicle electronics to my fellow natives. Big mistake !! used you vids as a reference tool. Had to translate your words from English to Cree. All week no one ask a question or even looked at me, by the end of the week only 4 out of 45 showed up. Seems my Cree is a bit rusty, seems all the sensors translate to a negative connotation. Wont be going back, not welcome. Getting out of the hospital today. :)

[@jayaragana7879]

sir Paul! thanks for your videos. I've learned a lot, as a automotive Electrician. God bless!!!

[@ScannerDanner]

on a pull down design signal circuit, yes. it doesn't matter what you use. when I do use a low current test light would be checking computer driver or transistor operation. this would be on the output side of the computer not the input side. the input side contains just a voltage sensing circuit and not a transistor driver.

[@nickayivor8432]

🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟 SUBSTANTIAL Sir ScannerDanner 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟 KNOWLEDGEABLE Sir ScannerDanner Thank you 👍 From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧

[@BeccaLovesGleee]

Top job very well explained 👏

[@donniejohnson7499]

Great video you are a great technician. Instructor.

[@zachariajacobussiebert3459]

Hi Dan, in responds to your question, what are the voltages backprobed with KOEO, pin (1) Gr = 0 v pin (2) signal = 5.6 v pin (3) Power = 5 v , this is a brand new sensor, has not even being around the block yet, old sensor had the same reading.

[@ScannerDanner]

Reply to my fist response, I don't have context otherwise

[@ScannerDanner]

these were all part of the lecture series. And only a fraction of what's there

[@SteveRobReviews]

Pauls a great guy and a lot smarter than I but he is teaching at an accelerated level when it comes to vehicle electronic and management systems. On the reserve I escaped from there was a 1953 Merc sedan and a hand full of pickups mostly 1960-71 international trucks. If Paul ever excepts a contract to Canada he would be well advise to bring a set of feller gauges,dwell meter and a BFH. Oh yeah, they speak English. don't understand Cree. Never assume anything

[@brianritchie75]

Good video

[@JoeNunes345]

Thanks for your prompt reply. Joe

[@moulayediag3873]

You are a great teacher ...i'll get in you premiume courses

[@ScannerDanner]

Thank you! You will not be disappointed

[@moulayediag3873]

@@ScannerDanner I' ll do it very soon

[@ScannerDanner]

I'm not really sure how to take that? so it sounds like you said after using my material that only 4 of 45 showed up for the class in the end? that sucks :-)

[@ScannerDanner]

of course not. i will still be posting my case studies which i believe supports the whole thing. i just will not be posting this style of lecture videos anymore. i have done probably five or six in this format. (injector noid light testing, ignition control testing with a test light, fuel pump electrical circuits, fuel injector driver designs)

[@ScannerDanner]

@Jahan Zeb new car computer replacement involves reprogramming. a factory scan tool is required in most cases also access to factory software which you can pay 4. sorry but I do not have the ability to do this for you.

[@mohandazzoune9362]

Hi, My car is a Renault Duster 1.2 tce 125, gasoline direct injection. I have a misfiring problem with my car when the engin is warm on cylinder 3 and 4. I've changed my injectors, plugs, coils and the problem still the same. To stop the misfiring on cylinder 3 and 4, I have to pull off the crankshaft connector. If I pull off the crankshaft connector, no more misfires and the idle runs good. There are two similar position sensors on this car (crankshaft and camchaft) with same OEM reference. I've changed both (with new sensors) and changed the connectors (soldiered new connectors) but the problem is still the same. The only solution I found to stop the engin misfiring is to disconnect the crankshaft sensor when the engin is started. If I disconnect the other sensor (Camshaft) nothing happens. The misfiring happens only when the engin is warm (60 celsius or more). What do you suggest? Thank you so much for your help. (sorry for my English).

[@mr952fast]

Im stumped... got a 2002 stratus. Uses 12v hall effect sensors.. i have good 12v and good ground at sensors. When scoping signal, i get square wave but it only goes up to around 6.5 - 7v.. Diagnostic chart says disconnect sensor, key on/engine off i should have 5volts on signal circuit.. i have 0. Im guessing bad pcm??

[@PeterKovacs-yh1vz]

Good info , I'm running DIY hall sensor with a speeding board running 5volts to senior with pull up on its output . I get 0 to 5 volts on the output wire when I turn crank, but as I hook it up to ecm the voltage goes to 0 volts. Have good continuity on the circuit .Any ideas?

[@gregfaint504]

Hey bud, you mixed up the terminology. A pull up circuit will pull the circuit up to a voltage and a pull down circuit will pull the circuit down to ground. So in a pull up circuit, the unplugged harness will have 5v on the signal wire when sensor unplugged.

[@ScannerDanner]

Intentionally spoken of in this way. On a pull-down circuit, for example. I understand internally to the module that it has a pull-up resistor, but who cares! When you're teaching a class of newbies, how to understand what's happening in the circuit, to call a sensor or switch that is switching to ground, which pulls the signal voltage low, a pull-up design is in my opinion stupid lol

[@Macmillium]

Does it means that you will not post more videos here ? Thanks.

[@AliBinSun]

Man i hope this helps my NO START NO SPARK!!! 2009 MITSUBISHI GALANT 2.4 SOHC. Harmonic balancer came apart and was rubbing the crankshaft sensor wires and caused car to just completely die on highway. It was a red wire and im not sure if it's the signal wire or what. But anyway i soldered a new connector and purchased ckp and cam but still no spark. I think the metal harmonic balancer shorted something but im not sure how far to trace it if you know what i mean. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!! I'm stuck with no money but i have tools and my brain so i know i can fix it HELP PLEASE

[@JoeNunes345]

Hi Dan, i hope you are well. Yet another great video, thank you. Could you please tell me what is considered as a " Low Amperage Test Light " for the above purposes? What is the maximum rating allowed in order to stay safe and not fry the computer? Could i modify an ordinary test light? Could i use an LED instead or is there not enough load on an LED to get the right results? Many thanks, Joe

[@DDescalchuk57]

What happens if that Chrysler 5v ref is reading 12-14 v plugged in or unplugged. The signal is square wave plugged in and battery voltage un plugged

[@ScannerDanner]

If you are positive it is the 5v ref circuit, then you most likely have a bad computer ground. I've never seen higher than normal ref voltage other than a bad computer ground

[@DDescalchuk57]

@@ScannerDanner 2011 Jeep Patriot with definitely battery voltage on its 5v ref I’ll look it to the bad computer ground

[@zubairsherwani]

I am facing an issue in these days which is related to pull up and pull down cmp sensor. There are two cars in garage, same make, model and engine but made in different countries. Cmp signal in one car (A) is pull up while cranking, but engine does not start when cmp is connected. In other car (B) cmp signal is pull down, and car starts fine. Upon disconnecting the cmp i verified 5v in signal wire, 5v in power and 0v in ground in both cars. when i connect the cmp grip KOEOff, A car pulls down signal to 0 (no start) and B car keeps it at 5v. Cmp and ckp are same. I switched cmp and ckp sensor of A car, but it didn't start. I swapped sensors with B car, but A does not start but B car starts. If disconnect cmp grip of A car, it starts with longer cranking. Camshaft signal plate is same in both cars. Pinout of connector is same in both cars. What might be the reason of inverted signal in A car? + can the signal be inverted by switching 5v power and groung wire?

[@ScannerDanner]

What is the problem with the car? Or both cars?

[@zubairsherwani]

@@ScannerDanner A car is crank no start when cmp grip connected. It starts with longer cranking when cmp grip disconnected. B car is running fine. Both are diesel nissan navara 2.5L 2010.

[@steveguest8028]

Hi Paul,on a mini(bmw)I’ve been looking at the three wires to the cam sensor are 5V supply,Earth and 12V( presume this is the signal wire)so does this design use the Hall effect sensor to pull the 12V to ground ?....Many Thanks

[@khalidmbarki7807]

Hello.When disconnecting the cam sensor plug, I find 10.67 volts in the signal wire. Engine crank but not start. - Engine: 1.3 vvti What do you think of you? ## Thank you very much for what you provide. Your information is very valuable ##

[@ScannerDanner]

Sounds like a pull-down circuit. What is your power and ground wires showing, plugged in and backprobing, with the key on?

[@danielwarren6845]

I have a crank sensor with a good 5vref and a good ground but the signal wire reads 4.7v both plugged in and unplugged. Is that close enough to 5v or is something else wrong here.

[@ScannerDanner]

+Daniel Warren no problem there my friend. The slight drop you are seeing on the signal wire is normal and is actually your voltmeter that is dropping some of the voltage (high internal resistor on the signal circuit) For more information on this, check out my Section 2 material "switch inputs" thanks!

[@danielwarren6845]

+ScannerDanner. Thanks, I've seen most of your videos but it can be difficult to remember it all. May have to re watch some.

[@eduardoenriquebarreto6269]

Hi and appreciate your videos but I have a doubt regarding the test that you showed. For example you said when the sensor was unplug you must see 5V reference but this situation generally happens when the sensor plugged and when you disconnect it you must see 0 right?

[@ScannerDanner]

There are two types of hall effect circuit designs 1. Pull-up (will have 0v unplugged) 2. Pull-down (will have typically 5v unplugged but can be anywhere from 5-12v)

[@georgekoulianos2489]

Professor Paul My question is in a no crank no start no com would you start testing for power and ground with a breaker box before the 5v reference in the ob2 connection please answer me thank you

[@ScannerDanner]

No com with multiple modules on a network or just one? I'd treat that differently

[@georgekoulianos2489]

@@ScannerDanner I'm sorry I meant no start no com thank you professor Paul

[@ScannerDanner]

@@georgekoulianos2489 I understand, but it still matters if it is a no com with just the ECM or with multiple modules. I would treat them differently.

[@georgekoulianos2489]

@@ScannerDanner I like ask a question professor Paul how long is the course for Rosedale tech for thank you

[@ScannerDanner]

@@georgekoulianos2489 16 months

[@motormind4788]

Hi Paul great video, i have a quick question. I have a pull up CMP and i am getting battery voltage on the supply and about 0.8v less on the signal wire. I have a DTC for P0340, i scoped the signal at the sensor i am getting a square wave. Should there be a voltage drop of nearly a volt across the sensor. My ground voltage drop is fine at 0.004v about. Please let me know if i am onnthe right track and need a sensor. I will be checking my signal wire to the PCM in the next couple days i hope.

[@elpiedron3889]

That's my problem did you put a new cam sensor? Did you fixed it?

[@JoeCnNd]

I'm fixed high on my ignition passlock signal for my GM avalanche. I'm at 5v and turn over to run and it's still 5v instead of the Hall effect pulling up to a readable signal for the BCM.

[@ScannerDanner]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rGGkepuglNusobc

[@bbmd2200]

In a pull down design, couldn't a fixed 5v signal be from a short to positive? I know the test light would light when you do the bypass test and you won't get any pids change.

[@ScannerDanner]

Yes, absolutely, the signal circuit will not light a test light! (Incandescent) Great insight!

[@adamscheunhage7010]

My question is what if the reluctor wheel is in the position of pulling down and the sensor is still installed in the car.... ????

[@ScannerDanner]

disconnecting the sensor and measuring the signal voltage will answer that. A pull-down design will show high volts, a pull-up design will stay at 0

[@vikinghauler3244]

I'm having trouble with this one,at 4:40 how does the signal go to 5v if circuit is gone from being unplugged?

[@vikinghauler3244]

got it now

[@ScannerDanner]

my man, pull-down circuit is how :-)

[@ScannerDanner]

@Bonfield2002 why aren't you welcome? i just want a ride in a blackhawk helicopter, sign me up :-)

[@alexmessina7652]

Paul, would you object to a test light to B+ to a pull down signal wire to test for a short to ground? Preference for an LED test light?

[@ScannerDanner]

Use your test light but connect it to the 5v reference circuit as your source, then check scan data for a signal change. It's the same thing I teach using a resistor. I would suggest an incandescent light for this test

[@santacruzautomotivediagnos6094]

how do you find out which is pull up and which is pull down

[@ScannerDanner]

on electronic designs like a hall effect, only an unplugged measurement of the signal wire on a known good circuit will reveal this to you. Unless you can find an INTERNAL block diagram of the computer, which manufactures don't like to share. Hope that makes sense

[@AnythingEverythingGh]

Hello Paul Interesting question I have here as I watch through; a pull up design that needs the cam and crank to fire injectors simultaneously. When you do a bypass test on the crank sensor signal and there is a reaction from the pcm to fire injectors without any activity on the cam circuitery, I think there will be problem here, why; because it's needs cam activity to fire as well. This is done in KOEO Does this mean there is a circuit short/ wiring intergrity problem in the cam wiring ?

[@ScannerDanner]

It depends on the system, some systems need both cam and crank, some do not. I have many case studies showing this bypass test in my chapter 21 playlist kzbin.info/aero/PLAFYVCyenqcqEN41aYznWn9Nfhy1PiMjo Offhand I dont know which ones I've done this, but to get both signals, sometimes ill crank it while doing the bypass test on the failed sensor

[@AnythingEverythingGh]

@@ScannerDanner SD The system is established here; cam and crank need to be in sync to start. It's a pull up design Why should a bypass test on the signal wire on the crank sensor give an activity to start while the cam sensor is not engaged? Trust you comprehend my query?

[@ScannerDanner]

@@AnythingEverythingGh not sure really what you're asking. Pull-up and pull-down isn't relevant to this question. Some systems (early) only needed a crank signal to start (spark and fuel), others needed both and still other would start with the crank only and would group fire the injectors without the cam signal, so default strategies. When doing crank sensor bypass testing you may or may not get a reaction depending on the system. The reaction I'm speaking of can be spark, or injection pulse, or fuel pump relay turn on, or simply an RPM signal on scan data

[@AnythingEverythingGh]

@@ScannerDanner Thanks and noted

[@SteveRobReviews]

Paul,chief called to see if I'm OK ,I'm not welcome but they sure like you. Best American military base in Canada next door and the base commander says we can borrow one of those blackhawk choppers to pick you up with, I was surprised he would let us go across the border,usually were only allowed to take it into town for some supplies and ov course guys to the hospital. If your interested in a one week contract let me know and we will order you a new tent for your stay. LOL

[@johnmckamy6398]

so if you check the signal wire when its still plugged in KOEO , could you get either 5 volts or 0 volts depending on window location? and if yes , that would be why you unplug it.

[@ScannerDanner]

+John McKamy yes!

[@lautaroalberola]

great paul!!! but.... i think there's something unclear. (i'm just starting in diagnostics, i don't have experience, but please read this). You said that on a pull up design, to test signal wire and pcm integrity, to connect the testlight to bat + and create a signal to the pcm, and in the example it's correct, but if the system works with a 5v ref and i do that test, i'm going to send 12v when it's supposed to function with 5v. what can happen? to cook the pcm? the explanation is great but i think that it can be misleading if someone sees that test and doesn't realize that. i hope you or somebody else can explain that to me or correct me if i'm wrong. thank you so much for teaching me and the entire world. Lautaro from Argentina.

[@ScannerDanner]

The 5v ref would be the power supply to the hall effect. You wouldn't be messing with that circuit, only the signal wire. And if the signal wire has 5v on it, it is a pull-down design so you definitely don't want a test light to b+ there. A 12v pull up circuit would typically have a 12v supply too, not a 5v ref supplied power.

[@ALZWE-LIBYAN-CAR-ELECTRICIAN]

@@ScannerDanner Paul,,, what's the difference between Hall effect sensor with 5V reference and 12v reference? As exam. In Hyundai Azera 2006 transmission output speed sensor has a power 12V from fuse, ground from Ground Point, and signal wire with a disconnected connector 5V, so it's a pull down design. Q: 5V in signal wire is a bias voltage!!!! Then when I connect the connector will Vary on and off from 0V to 12v,,, or from 0v to 5V...

[@ScannerDanner]

Great insight and great questions! The only difference is the source, or "power feed" if you will, for the hall effect. The operation of the signal circuit is identical regardless of what voltage is used to power up the hall-effect. So some are powered by the reference circuit (5v) and some are powered by battery voltage, and still others are somewhere in between. I've seen 8v and 10v power feeds too. The signal circuit being 5v unplugged, is indeed a pull-down design but I would not call it a bias voltage because that is more of a hidden voltage that does not really effect the operation of a circuit. Without this 5v signal, the sensor would not work on a pull-down design. So anyway, yes, it will be the 5v wire that will toggled from high to low, the 12v line and ground will remain constant. Love answering questions like this. You are clearly paying attention! Love good students!!!

[@ALZWE-LIBYAN-CAR-ELECTRICIAN]

@@ScannerDanner Good teatcher,,, Signal wire will toggled from high to low. My Q: As we know low will be 0v, but high will be 5v If I have a 5v reference, so when I have a 12v reference will be 5v or 12v? One Day when I connect my scope to see timing in Hyundai Elantra 2005 Camshaft position sensor was have a 12V reference, signal wire was Square Wave On Off from 0v to 12v.

[@ScannerDanner]

@@ALZWE-LIBYAN-CAR-ELECTRICIAN typically with a 12v feed on a pull-up design, you will see a 12 volt square wave on the signal

[@relmdrifter]

2001 Sonata v6 CMP sensor 12v with 5v pull down. power and ground good, sig has 5v disconnected, 0 - 3.75v (bump test) connected. "new" sensor is bad!

[@ScannerDanner]

Not surprising with today's parts.

[@relmdrifter]

@@ScannerDanner Not that there was much doubt; Confirmation, replaced cam sensor and code cleared. Thanks for the bump test idea. I had no data pid and my scope is busted.

[@relmdrifter]

Oh no, I spoke too soon. Code came back. I wonder if some wires are rubbed/chewed shorting out the sensor, or if the ecm is bad. Oh boy, more testing.

[@relmdrifter]

Monitors set, no active CEL, passed smog, runs good. They got 1.5 years to figure it out, or bring it back.

[@AnythingEverythingGh]

Great teaching Paul With this 3pin hall effect is there an acceptable ohms value for the sensor itself to rule it out as bad or good? Expecially when you are OK with wiring integrity Thanks for answering

[@ScannerDanner]

I've never, not once used the ohmmeter to measure a hall effect. They're all constructed differently and resistance measurements are always like this: If it measures bad, it's bad If it measured good it can still be bad 😉

[@AnythingEverythingGh]

@@ScannerDanner Thanks So ohms resistance checking of hall effect sensors is not worthwhile. Is there any test that can be done to it separated from the car to rule out it being good or bad? Dont want to be a parts changer!

[@ScannerDanner]

@@AnythingEverythingGh yes, absolutely! Check out my chapter 21 playlist for many, many videos where I am showing this

[@AnythingEverythingGh]

@@ScannerDanner when you havent purchased the book yet lol

[@ScannerDanner]

@@AnythingEverythingGh it's right here on KZbin, you don't need to buy anything. I just have my playlists organized with the material that is in my book. So check out my chapter 21 playlist for more videos on testing these

[@jeremyb2907]

So it's been 8 years. have you yet seen a 5volt pull up design.

[@ScannerDanner]

I don't remember ever seeing one other than the ICM to ECM distributor reference signal on old GM bypass ignition systems

[@nelsonco3922]

I have a camshaft sensor for FORD RANGER 2009 ENGINE: WL 2.5. The sensor has three pins. I tested their resistance, pin 1 pin 2 pin 3, pin 1 and pin 2 has megaohms resistance , pin 2 and pin 3 has 13 kilo ohms of resistance. Is my sensor broken or are these resistance normal, Thanks

[@ScannerDanner]

I never do resistance testing on sensor circuits, especially on hall-effects

[@nelsonco3922]

@@ScannerDanner Ok thanks man, I just tested the line of the camshaft, The camshaft sensor is unplugged, PIN 1 is always ground, when i turn the ignition on (ACC position), PIN 3 has 5v ( I assume this is the power pin), pin 2 has 4.8v, shouldn't pin 2 have no voltage because it is unplugged?

[@ScannerDanner]

@@nelsonco3922 nice! Your wire that reads 4.8v should be your signal wire and this would indicate this is a "pull-down design" hall effect. In other words, the transistor in the cam sensor will energize and switch this signal to ground to make the square wave pattern. transistor off = 5v (or 4.8) and transistor on = 0v So the wiring tests you just did, shows us the sensor has everything it needs to work. Now lets do the same tests plugged in and see what we get (loaded circuit testing). For the signal wire, if you "bump the key" (do not start the engine), you can make the camshaft move to specific points on the drive-plate to see the signal go high and low. For the supply and ground, they should stay steady all the time.

[@nelsonco3922]

​@@ScannerDanner Ok so will this be a reliable test if I turn the ignition on to power the sensor but not inserted in the camshaft. I will put a metal near the powered camshaft sensor and see if there is 0 volts and when there is no contact it should read approx 5v.

[@ScannerDanner]

This one is all you for sure kzbin.info/www/bejne/gIjJlXuOgZKVhsk I'm doing exactly what you are describing

[@indoblaze]

Anyway you could send me the pin out chart for 2004 audi a8 4.2l d3

[@ScannerDanner]

We have created a forum on my website to help you guys out with this type of stuff. It is free to join www.scannerdanner.com/forum/post-your-repair-questions-here/16-need-service-info-check-here.html

[@Amopower]

Maybe they were mad at you for teaching them with Paul's videos when *you* were the one getting paid to teach them, lol. Or, maybe they thought half of the material was nonsense because the engines never get warm enough to enter closed loop in Northern Canada.

[@chrisi1909]

Second :) Great Vid again...

[@naushadali95]

very useful and great video. thanks sir