Happy Endings Suck, Ghibli Endings Are Better

[@TheSoak]

If you'd like to support this content directly, please consider doing so via Patreon! (www.patreon.com/thesoak ) And if you enjoy gaming, consider joining me for my livestream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) SEIZURE RISK WARNING - Flashing yellow frames at 18:56-18:59. Apologies for that - I've missed this in one of the re-renderings of the video and due to the long, painful legal battle I had to go through to even make this video public, I cannot reupload at this point. If you want to understand about this legal battle, you can see more here: x.com/OW_SVB/status/1810733921803370816

[@cmbaz1140]

you forgot the lack of "conflict" or a "villain" is also what makes ghibli movies so relatable... The biggest conflict people nowdays have is paying the bills on time and the closest thing to a "villain" is probably their landlord. The "world" around you will change whether we like it or not. this is relatable because its true... In comparison we will probably never overthrow an evil empire as the hero who defeats the big bad guy ...we all wish in some way we could but we know it will never happen However Meeting a mysterious "person" Befriending your neighbor or Getting out of a contract are things most people will likely do in some way at some point in their lives...

[@ianbelletti6241]

Spirited away has conflict. Conflict isn't always battle. In Spirited Away the conflicts are interpersonal and internal in nature. None are outright good verse evil and all contribute to the main character's growth arc.

[@aisnota5192]

Castle in the Sky exists and somehow everyone acts like it doesn't!

[@mintman325]

With Ghibli you feel that you see these characters for but a brief moment in their lives. When the credits roll they do other things, they have other days and adventures. With Hollywood you feel like it’s a complete story.

[@martythemartian99]

Yes, true for so many Ghibli movies. My favorite for this type of ending is Only Yesterday, when the main character makes a big decision. Not before, but during the end credits.

[@jefftitterington7600]

So many "stories" have no real beginning and no real ending. Things - happen.

[@peepinR]

Well said... That does seem to be the case doesn't it?

[@harsyakiarraathallah2222]

Yes! Ghibli made us Feel Alive with their Stories!

[@trorisk]

I don't know if that's exactly what you're describing but I get the idea. In Western stories The story must be a “whole”. Each "open" element must be "closed". Everything that "is" must be explained, have meaning and therefore be condensed into the story. Rather than having the story of just the main character, in a world surrounded by people living their lives, you have the evolution of all the secondary characters. As if the important moments in the lives of these 4 or 5 characters (sometime more) could only be during the story being told. In the story of a casino heist we don't necessarily need to have 2 love subplots, the story of the 3th sidekick who wants to pay off his debts, and revenge against a secondary villain.

[@aliquida7132]

Great interpretation of why these movies are so different and so great. Another aspect of the Ghibli movies that I like is something you hinted at with Spirited Away, by commenting at the leaves and dust and "this wasn't just a dream". In the Ghibli movies, it isn't just a dream, it is real and parents rarely dismiss kids and their experiences. I love how in Totoro, May gets upset by insisting that she DID see a Totoro, and the father said that she is very lucky, and then takes the girls to the tree to pay their respects. He validates her experience, where as almost all "western" movies will have the parents create "conflict" by refusing to believe the child, and telling them to "grow up" or something like that... and the child has to "prove them wrong". The magical world and the spirits are real, and this is never a matter to be debated.

[@theothertonydutch]

A big jet just flew over my house and it was so low :O

[@gregorius.dentang]

​@@theothertonydutch What type of jet?

[@TheWickedWizardOfOz1]

@@gregorius.dentang One that lost a fight to a shark

[@Spooglecraft]

i believe that's tied to religion. in the west, christianity and generally monotheistic religions are most prevalent, while in japan the most prevalent faiths in japan are shintoism and buddhism, which are polytheistic and contain animist elements. and animism is the belief in spirits, which in japan are called yokai. still, it makes for a refreshing difference to the phenomenon you just mentioned in western media.

[@Spooglecraft]

@@TheWickedWizardOfOz1 we're talking about western stories not west side story

[@lypreila7913]

You spent so long fighting the good fight against superfluous copyright claims, you deserve a break and a snack. Great video.

[@statickaeder29]

I also love the lack of a distinct villain. They have their place, but they are not needed in order to have conflict and thus a story. To me, the conflict in Spirited away is the demands of growing up - she has to move to a new town, save her parents, and return to the real world so as to complete moving to a new town. Happily ever after doesn't cut it, because there is always the next day.

[@arthursworld7302]

Plenty of ghibli films have villains. Laputa Porco Rosso Spirited away Howls moving castle

[@defokochuan]

@@arthursworld7302 yeah but like the story isnt really centred around defeating the villain

[@littlesongbird1]

Yes. The conflict is more of a person versus herself/himself. She had to grow up and develop as a character. In the English release when her parents drive off in the end you hear her comment, "It won't be so bad" when her parents talk about moving to a new home and starting a new school. Implying she has matured due her time in the spirit world.

[@thomasmaughan4798]

@@arthursworld7302 "vPlenty of ghibli films have villains. " Opposition (conflicted goals); but not usually *villains* (evil).

[@StubbyandShifu]

I just thought she was lost in a world of weird and wonderful spirits. I looked up a lot of the spirits up and read about them.

[@100lovenana]

I totally agree on Arrietty's ending. Having borrowers be revealed and accepted by humans would feel cheap, because we know things wouldn't end that way in reality. Life is bittersweet, it doesn't have perfect endings, so I feel Ghibli films respect the bittersweetness of life while still giving optimism and hope.

[@McGrath123]

To be fair this is how it ends in the book too

[@tcdoesstuff]

“起承轉合” is a story structure we learn in high school in Taiwan. I don’t think it’s that much different, it just has a larger span of explanation. You’ve done most of the explanation, I would think that 轉 (change) would more likely be “the false victory” if you put it in the hero’s journey. I think the East Asian four act structure actually still works for western stories. 合(I like to translate it to “combine”, since it basically combines everything the story comes to), is basically “the hero goes back to a comfortable place but changed”. I would think story structure isn’t the main cause of difference between western and eastern stories, but the perspective using each structure could be an influence. Conflict isn’t absence in 起承轉合, it’s just different.

[@atsukorichards1675]

I agree. I think 起承転結 (Japanese)/Ki-syou-ten-ketsu has nothing to do with the particular feelings we feel for Ghibli's works. It is just a way of story's construction.

[@stevemartin4249]

41 years as an American resident in Japan, and former college writing and public speaking teacher / biology lab director here ... and I fully agree with your analysis. I will later add in comments my own experience in teaching freshman exposition, scientific writing, and speech writing. Though all three are different academic domains and have different conventions, an effective use of those conventions depends on understanding the underlying psychology that both Kishotenketsu and Aristotelian derived structure have in common.

[@mysticdragon2101]

After a quick google search, I think Kishōtenketsu is indeed, basically the same thing as 起承轉合. Kishōtenketsu is the Japanese reading of the characters 起承轉結. More info. at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kish%C5%8Dtenketsu

[@NeyamRye]

Yeaa

[@Raspberr3-d9i]

oddly enough, I actually first learned the term in my high school music theory class when we compared the sonata form with the 起承転結 structure, which what makes the music form differ from pop music is the distinctive development section when the muaical ideas ought to be developed in as many ways as they can even after the themes have been performed, eventually being the exact same concept of having something new in the Ten section.

[@arraine]

This definitely adds a piece to the puzzle of why these stories feel so important, and I look forward to seeking out more stories that use this structure. For me, the endings also include a really important theme, in many Ghibli films: we can go on magical and fantastical adventures, we can daydream and get infatuated and see the world, but at the end of the day, we have to go home and build our real lives. We have to build our relationships slowly and carefully, and build our sense of home where it belongs. We don't get to escape permanently.

[@fluffy_fluffinity]

Finally the copyright battle is over. Great video!

[@CactusPuppy]

Let’s gooooooo

[@doctorwhobeyond]

👏

[@Mangafan47]

One detail at the end of Spirited away I missed as a child, but notice every time now: Chihiro wears the hairband that Zeniba made for her. Imo it's a symbol that chihiros expereinces were real and that change shows in usualy unnoticed, small everyday things (like a hairband).

[@genisay]

Another thing I noticed that is present in every Ghibli film is an emphasis on developing strong connections and bonds. Arrietty has to leave, and she and Sho will never see each other again, but their brief time together, and the bond they form during it irrevocably, changes both of their lives, and leaves them with memories they won't forget. Loss is okay, people have to part ways, but the bonds they form stick with them, and have lasting impacts. A film that I can see a lot of Kishotenketsu influence in, now that I think about it, was one I just watched recently. That was IF. The structure is very similar. Intro, development, a chaotic element introduced, and change as the resolution. A lot of the ending is left up to us to decide how it will ultimately continue, and it ends out in a very Ghibli kind of way, with the biggest resolution being the personal change the main character goes through, how her bond with others in the film changes them in turn, and a return to normalcy, with her going back to living her life.

[@Tosxychor]

That was a superb explanation. I've grappled myself with the felt need of having to tell a different kind of story than the hero's journey in the past; thanks so much for making it this clear that a different way to tell a story exists and also works so beautifully.

[@Chandler_Goodrich]

I think, in a way, Kishotenketsu does resemble 3 act structure, and DOES have conflict at the forefront. But it doesn’t do it the same way that a Hollywood movie does. All 3 act structure stories are basically 4 acts, since act 2 is the same length as acts 1 and 3 combined, and act 2 divides at a midpoint, so you can still map it as 4 parts. Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems that the internal conflict is the central conflict of the whole story, rather than a means to resolving a greater external conflict. The introduction of the external conflict is just an extra big test to solve what problem was set up in the beginning, or whatever showdown the story built up to at the end. And I feel like Chihiro’s story DOES resolve neatly at the end. The people and spirits working at the bath house aren’t the main conflict. Saving her parents was her goal. She did set it aside at times, but it taught her something. Sometimes that happens in real life. She overcomes her fear, pride, and impatience through everything that happens, which prepares her for Yubaba’s final test. She leaves the spirit world prepared to face the new ordinary world she was heading toward in the beginning of the story. But ending a movie open-ended isn’t bad or unsatisfying. But I also wouldn’t describe the ending of Arietty to be open ended. Arietty and Sho’s relationship was the focus, not the fate of the borrowers and human’s relationship. I could be wrong or maybe I’m just seeing this through my own western worldview, but to me it makes sense.

[@OliMcDonald]

Great video, I wasn't aware of Kishotenketsu, loved how you compared it to the 3 act structure. I'd say there's some part of cinematography that Ghibli does as well that invites you into its worlds in a more laid back way. Sure there are some cool action scenes, but there are lots of slow, lingering shots that just capture the mood of a moment, and give each place or object space to breathe that really resonates with the overall story structure.

[@Vas1]

Wow, you really helped me put into words what I like about the Ghibli movies so much. All I was aware of was that they give me a sense of peace, like a beautiful pause from the world at the current moment. The fact that they don't follow the typical 3-act-rule and the "missing" conflict is simply beautiful to me. I've experienced that some of my friends who I showed some of Studio Ghibli's movies were very underwhelmed by the lack of these typical tropes, like "nothing really happened in this movie". When stories develop in my head (which is a really fast process, given I have ADHD) I mostly don't feel the need for a bigger conflict, but was always scared to develop any of the stories further out of fear that people would just find it boring. I am very thankful for you making this video!

[@reeceford7640]

In film school, we watched spirited away, and that was the first time I’d seen it. I did not enjoy the experience at all the first time around because i wasn’t familiar with Eastern storytelling, so it was off putting, confusing, and even boring at times. But when I came to class disappointed, everyone said they absolutely loved it. I realized it must have some incredible value that others can recognize, but I couldn’t. I tried to explain that my lack of enjoyment and understanding probably chalked up to a cultural difference in storytelling and that I was one of the only students in the class that hadn’t grown up watching Eastern media, but everyone in my class was insistent that it followed the classic hero’s journey, and that I was just being difficult. I’ve wondered for years why I didn’t enjoy Ghibli movies, despite being a huge animation fan. Eventually I went into each next Ghibli movie with the expectation of being confused, and just going with it more open-minded, which helped me appreciate them so much more. I still couldn’t verbalize the difference between these two styles other than it was a cultural difference, but this video has answered that question. Every time I analyzed a film (or anyone else did in my college for that matter) we always used a Western lens, and it just didn’t line up. It was confusing how this film could get praise for doing so many of the things we’d get docked points for, like not having a solid conflict. Learning about this four act structure and the philosophy behind that style of storytelling is like putting on glasses for the first time! Finally I can explain why Spirited Away is so incredible and well-loved, while also admitting that I had to learn to enjoy it.

[@sneezyfido]

In a way maybe "growth" or rather the pains of growth is a form of "conflict". But in notably US writing the conflict needs to be tied to a specific person who needs to be flagged and polarised as "the enemy" and inherently wrong about something.

[@benjalucian1515]

Good video, but Miyazaki himself said it wasn't a coming of age movie. He wanted to emphasize to girls/children of this age that they had the strength already in them to deal with obstacles. The Japanese version doesn't have the last line that the US version does. Chiro's father doesn't ask her at the end if she's worried about going to school. There is no dialogue at all. In the Japanese version again, it's implied Chihiro also doesn't remember what happened. The only evidence that it did is her hair tie. Which I think ties into her experience per Miyazaki better. She doesn't have to remember what happened to deal with her new school, life, etc. WE the audience have already seen she can handle things. Not sure about them coming out to find their car all dusty. I think it was always that way, after driving through the woods when they first arrived. If you remember, the area around the entrance to the tunnel to the park was strangely clear and there was no overgrowth at all. Wouldn't it be overgrown if the area had been abandoned for years? I think once they passed the torii, they were in the land of spirits. That wasn't what the entrance to the tunnel looked like at all in the 'mortal' world. In the mortal world it was overgrown, with hanging branches and tall grass and weeds. Their car looked like it should after driving crazily to the area, so there wasn't a passage of time, just a difference of worlds.

[@comicallylargerodent]

love this, actually. this comment is gonna be bouncing around in my head for a long time now

[@billybonesbaggins]

I may be forgetting mentions of timelines within the film, but I'm not sure why you're suggesting "abandoned for years". Dust and leaves should appear between a couple days to a couple weeks, which, iirc, should match up with the idea that time has passed.

[@benjalucian1515]

@@billybonesbaggins I mean the park had been abandoned for years. At least 11 years. So the entrance to the park, where the car arrived, should be overgrown. It wasn't until the end of the movie.

[@OrojinMusic]

One other key difference I've noticed through your description, in western films it seems like the antagonist is always a person or specific event. In eastern stories, the antagonist is often just life.

[@lorettabes4553]

Kdramas use the Kishotenketsu structure too. I got so curious on how those were writing along with anime. I study storytelling, it's strange that we don't learn these other types of writing. Only the Hollywood way. Even in europe

[@andreakhaid]

I've never heard someone say a Ghibli movie is pointless.

[@anonhere4021]

Yeah, none of the “people who dislike Ghibli say this” things are things I’ve ever heard a real human say… 😅

[@atticusgalt10]

I'll say it. Kiki's Delivery Service is an example. It felt like a Slice of Life Manga.

[@Blue_Grass_Girl]

Oh, you can find those in reactions on KZbin. Badd Medicine's reaction to Spirited Away had all those and more. They had to take it down (they caught so much flack) but their apology video can still be found.

[@jrgrimm6091]

Oh, I've heard plenty of people say Ghibli movies are boring movies, where nothing happens that it ends up being pointless. As if the nothing that happens isn't the point

[@Kirillissimus]

The problem is even deeper than the films being pointless. It is about the meaning of things and even the meaning of life. Does anything have a value if it does not help you dominate things around you and bend them to your will? Do you as a person have a value if you don't manage to find your own dragons to fight and eventually to slay? Most people just know instinctively that the answer is no. Life is an endless battlefield just with ones replacing others from time to time, otherwise it just wouldn't even be worth living. Otherwise we are just like some worthless pieces of dust carried around by the wind of the universe for no real purpose apart from following the similarly pointless laws of naure. Our very philosophy of life, our christian god and our traditions were created mostly in order to allows us to reject the dull and grim and overall terrible way of seeing the world and to place some form of our minds and our souls at the center of everything. We are proud free people and for us this way is the only acceptable way.

[@dylanroyboy]

Svb, I'm glad you are back with more of these and some of my favorite series of films. I need to see The Boy and The Heron. P.S I had an idea, could you do a video of Tears of The Kingdom and Breath of The Wild being inspired by Ghibli films and turning Hyrule into the video game version of a Ghibli film?

[@soccerburn552]

Fantastic video SVB. I've always had a hard time putting my finger on why Japanese anime movies always feel so different to me than Hollywood stuff. I always assumed it was the fact that they will take such a different view of things and tell stories that would have no chance of making it in an American movie. I am not sure if you have seen the movie The Garden of Words but I would highly recommend that movie. When the movie ended I very much was like, oh I do not know how to feel, I feel very... I have no good word to describe it. But it was directed by Makoto Shinkai and was his last director credit before he exploded in anime popularity with Your Name, Weathering with You, and Suzume.

[@Lloocii]

I really liked this movie and the score was great. It had some weird foot fetish vibes though. Nothing agregious but still a bit weird. Maybe that's just the cynical side of me that sees it that way as there is a premise for it. I just can't think of why that out of all the things. It uses shoes as a metaphor for life. I suppose upon writing this I could see it as a technical challenge. Animators have always had trouble with feet and hands and they're exceptionally well drawn in this film. Also the water/rain animations are probably the best I've ever seen. It definitely has the lack of resolution common to the genre though.

[@Frkon]

You talked about how Arriety would be different if it was a Hollywood movie and I think it's worth noting that a western telling of the Arriety story does exist in the form of the movie The Borrowers. I can't remember the details because I watched it when I was very young, but once I went to watch Arriety I agree with you that the difference in endings is incredibly striking. In the western movie, the movie ends with the borrowers luring the 'Hara' character into a supply closet full of other borrowers where they all take down the bad guy together, and yes, it was depicted as heroic and it seemed like the borrowers lived happily ever after. I think it speaks volumes that your hypothesis on the difference between eastern and western storytelling holds true for this comparison you aren't aware of.

[@myragroenewegen5426]

I think this provides a more realistic model for story-telling. The goal is to find something out about the world and use it to make some important contribution or contribute positively by ajusting one's behavior and mindset. The same thing exists in traditional hero journey structure, but we're encouraged to see it and structure it as storytellers as how the PROBLEM OR TRAP was escaped or rectified. This encourages writers to go to extremes of good and evil and be overambitious by defining problems that are ultimate and solutions that are ultimate, and this good to bad to good pogression can feel like didactic morlism and easily lacks believability. One can certainly have probles, lessons, rewarded victories and so on in the other structure, but the emfasis is on describing a world, changing it, decribing it again and so on, until a suitable point is reached at which our understanding has been meaningfully expanded about central things that continue to matter. Then the story can stop, not because things have reach ultimate triumph or tragedy or all has been solved or revealed, but because whichever people we focus on have remade their world sufficiently that whatever story follows will be a suficiently difforent discovery to constitute a new story about new kinds of discovery. It's comforting to focus on change and learning, rather than mastry, particularly in a world where problemsare bigger than we are. When we write or read a world more focused on making things work or not making thing not work, it's much easier to forget that the main reason for desciption is to move through useful understandings that an audience can relate to - that no matter how well-engineered your world, it will feel ungrounded and useless if it's a journey wher we can't feel the texture ofthe changing ground and ajust to it with each step. The style encourages writers to start small when they build their worlds and explore ambiguous and normal things.

[@sickomcflippin]

You summarized the comparison between the two so well! I love this take on storytelling for all the reasons you mentioned, they feel not only a lot more tangible but also far more grounded. Things in life change, they change a lot, they can change in a year as quickly as they change in a day, and life always throws surprises and change into your life you have to adjust to. A lot of the time it’s small things, a cancelled delivery, a surprise dish-cleaning mess, someone forgetting to do something, it’s all a surprise and a change, and we build our lives largely off of these small things. Ghibli Films don’t just feel cozy because of their beauty but also because of how true to life they make their events, how they show the importance of small things and how we use them to approach bigger things. I agree with everything you mentioned in this comment!

[@SomasAcademy]

The Secret Life of Arrietty was adapted from a British children's novel called The Borrowers, which also has a 1997 British movie adaptation. It'd be interesting to compare the plots of the two adaptations and the original to see how these different approaches to storytelling changed the story (checking the Wikipedia synopses of the book and the movie since I've never read the book and watched the movie way too long ago to remember much, it seems like there's a very solid basis for comparison, because although the Ghibli film seems to be pretty close to the book some of the ways it differs really seem to relate to the different act structure).

[@TheSilamander]

I was thinking this too. My memory of the borrowers story is limited since I watched the BBC adaptation when I was little, but it would be interesting to see how the different styles approach the same story. The movie definitely had an actual villain in John Goodman’s character as well.

[@Sheena3745]

Beautiful description & explanation of *just one* aspect of what makes Studio Ghibli so great: their story-telling. Well done. I hope you make other videos in the same vein, focused on the romantic themes, the animation, the pets, the fantastic creatures, etc. Thank you.

[@SoapyBlubbles]

It’s a crime you don’t have more subs! I love how you break down the story structures and tie it into multiple examples in a concise way. I’ve been wanting my stories to feel more authentic like Studio Ghibli films, and this video helped me a lot 😊

[@minuspup6363]

dang, couldn't have said it better myself. This was honestly pretty eye-opening and I'm surprised this video isn't more popular, good job yo

[@myragroenewegen5426]

I don't know about Yababa not being a villain. Just because her powers are explained through rules, doesn't mean she ever shows true goodness. She does everything purely for self-interest, when it comes to every character she interacts with. except her own son, who she encourages to operate out of the same value-system by giving him every conceiveable comfort at the expence of everyone else. When she praises Chihiro over the river spirit bathing, what she really wants her workers to "learn from Chihiro" is that any terrible work for her should be done if there's a possibility it will result in proceeds for her. This impression of her is furthur reinforced when she is thrilled with No-face until the very moment he stops giving thing to the bathhouse and starts consuming things and people from it, a situation she's quick to blame Chihiro for, even though a little though should tell her a human child couldn't have known she had caused this magical problem. In Greek myth and other storytelling, such as the story of Herculeese, working for a villain is often the pathway to defeating and outsmarting them, saving oneself and others from them, or extracting wealth from them. This story DOES fit that pattern, even if it uses another structure as well. In the end, Yababa is breifly thrown by Chihero showing wampth, rather than antagonism toward her, and she or her world may be possitively affected by the change in her son's maturity, generosity and way of thinking introduced by Chihiro, but her bathhouse reamins a place where identity is stripped from workers and workers are worked to death in poor conditions, simply because that'swhat searves Yubaba. It's nice to see a world where even Yubaba can be imagined changing her ways eventually, but it's also unlikely if it will happen. More likely, any authentic kindness that comes from her will have to be pulled out of her by strategy and force - the definition of a villain.

[@maxdickens2347]

i think the two are supposed to represent yin yang so itd make sense for more to be more..selfish/neg. as shed be representing the neg side of the circle. there is still good in her it just instant as obvious as the pos or good side. and there is still bad in the good just not as obvious. ya know?

[@pancakedroid]

Yeah, I noticed that during the scene where Yubaba congratulates Chihiro, the line where she says "you made us so much money!" was cut out.

[@StubbyandShifu]

It's a different culture. Aren't they allowed to not have a villain?

[@myragroenewegen5426]

@@StubbyandShifu That would be facinating and it is almost true. But I agree with Max, the above commenter. Yababa is an evil witch with a good witch twin. This kind of storytelling feels familiar. Which is not to say this style of storytelling doesn't at least help create more focus on nuance. Just about everyone close to Yababa is shown to be not just able to be outsmarted or manipulated, as we tend to expect, but actually redeamable and potentially complex beyond the innitial frightening impression they give. Meanwhile, "good" characters we'd expect to be ceaselessly possitive to Chihiro like Haru (also a lost child who instructs and assists her) surprise us by seeming to do bad things (Suddenly becoming emotionally distant in talking to Chihiro while in the bathhouse after her hiring, stealing magic things from people who haven't harmed them.) And this justifies the hopelessness and cutthroat self-preservation of people at the bathhouse, by showing us that people often end up compromised by the abusive system they're stuck in. Almost everyone can still be convinced to act for someone's good other than their own when that person shows a good faith willingness to sacrifice selflessly themselves. With this kind of writing, it seems possible that Yababa could be brought arround to show concern for somebody other than herself and her own child or that, if not, the right change of human dynamics arround her could simply make her power meaningless or inconveniant for her not to share more fairly, as happens with Chhiro's escape in the end. All the same, she remains defined entirely by greed, so she doesn't quite make it out of evil witch character behavior.

[@1simo93521]

Yubaba is running a huge complicated magical business for centuries?! She's just a hard nosed businesswoman I thought. She's as much a prisoner to the rules as anybody else.

[@Angel-ci9fu]

This is one of mine best videos I would have seen on yt so far. Thanks a ton!!!

[@Langeheinicke]

Learning of kishōtenketsu in this video has renewed in me my drive to write my first novel. I had become really invested in the characters I had created and their circumstances, but I couldn't think of a major conflict to drive the plot beyond it's initial arc. Knowing that I have the potential to convey a compelling story and exploration of themes without a 'big bad' or spelled-out goal has opened up the possibilities to me. I would love to see more Western stories implement structures like this that deviate from Hollywood's current formula. Great video :)

[@Iloveminkatt]

came from the group up podcast!! this video is so well made and super interesting. it def gave me inspiration for my own stories and characters, so thank you! looking forward to future vids

[@ericad8412]

No face was the most terrifying thing to me growing up his moans and luring people to eat them made me nope every time and when they were friends I was very disturbed and confused

[@TheOddOne2]

Awesome, I stumbled on to this video because of my love for Studio Ghibli. I recognised your voice thinking - this guy sounds exactly like that Overwatch player whos videos I enjoyed many many years ago. I was very suprised checking your channel info! Haha, very cool - well done svb :)

[@KynaTiona]

This is a valuable insight to me. I was pretty disillusioned with the three-act structure even before learning Joseph Campbell was a [cough] 1940s German [cough] sympathizer, and was separately confused why the Ghibli movies I liked so much didn't seem to fit in my brain as well as movies I was less fond of. Turns out it's because the structure they're built upon is expressly designed to expand on the lived experiences of at least two people, so there's simply more there to forget and more consequence to forgetting any particular part. I don't remember how exactly Luke and company get captured by the Death Star, but since the story is basically just "Luke joins the rebels and then blows up an artificial moon", I could easily be forgetting huge swathes of the movie and still feel like I remember it clearly. It's like junk food storytelling. I'm finding it pretty interesting that the sorts of stories I've been writing feel more similar to Kishotenketsu than a three-act structure. I have to wonder if that's convergent evolution from having similar goals (narrating a person's life versus narrating a person's conflict), or if Ghibli has just had a much more profound influence on how I see stories despite being woefully outnumbered. I suspect I'm going to be thinking about this a lot.

[@ChristianDall-p2j]

15:23 what you left out was that after youbaba Said “zen you did great” she Said “you made me soo much moneeeeeeeyyyyyy!”😂a nd she aid it very exited-y too, buncing up and Down With exitement and joy!

[@harsyakiarraathallah2222]

Kishotenketsu is more about an Experience of Growth and Change happening in the Story. The Characters Development is more Important and the Plot isn't about Good or Bad but how to Life Changes us and We accept, Learn, and Continue on in live with more Experience. The Tehcnic itself reflects How Lives Work. It's Start wtih the what we Expected, but then Excalated with a lot of Out of Nowhere Chalanges, the Unexpected will happen and we must find away to Understand and Face it, and when it's Over we just have to Reflect and Learn from it as soemthing New and Valueble. The Conflict can be there but isn't Nessary so it doesn't really matter, like we do expereince Conflict in life but isn't something we must Destroy but rather Learn from it. It's All about Learning through Life.

[@titouansouquet6607]

Thank you very much for the deep analysis. A lot of things said in the video are very interesting and stimulating. Although I understand the point is not really to evaluate and compare the pros and cons of "western" vs kishotenketsu storytelling, I'd like to raise a point that got me thinking while watching. The focus on change rather than conflict is, as you said, very powerful to echo human experience. However, the conflict orientation is also very relevant, in the way that it emphasizes the question of understanding the world around you to change it. In a word, it talks about politics, which the change based kishotenketsu narrative does not seem to encompass as easily. To take the example of Spirited Away, it seems to me that norms, history and hierarchies are not really integrated into the narrative, which is not a problem in itself, of course, but leaves a blank when considered as educational pieces of art for children. The ideas of comprehension and struggle are key components of life as well, and "western" media as presented in the video seems more adapted to carry this message. As a parent, I'd like to educate my child with both narratives to prepare them to live a full and meaningful life. Thanks again for the great video ! :)

[@DocKobryn]

Thank you for your video. I stumbled upon it but am very pleased with the writing style. I really enjoyed "Howl's Moving Castle". At first you think somehow the Witch of the Waste would be the big antagonist as she's the one who cast the original spell on the hero. Yet in the end. The only antagonist were the horrors of war itself. And all based on a misunderstanding. Now that you've put a name to the method of storytelling, I'll be looking for more examples. And perhaps even attempt at recreating a story I'd had where conflict isn't necessary for things to progress or change. I really feel I've grown a bit through watching your video. Thank you so much.

[@rlas]

13:12 I am so glad I am watching this video. I have never understood this movie entirely. I was so scared by the individual characters and haven't watched the movie in so long.

[@thatwolfyouknow8598]

This is an absolutely gorgeous examination of storytelling. Thank you for the hard work. Are you planning to make a video discussing Princess Mononoke? That story embedded itself into my mind and I cannot find people who want to dive deep into it with me.

[@businessburd2071]

Maybe I'm stupid and missed it in the video. But I feel like part of the reason Ghibli feels so different is because it feels like folklore (to me). There are rules and magic and monsters, but none of it is exactly evil or good and it all feels more like the representation of something to learn.

[@russkalen2337]

Very well presented! This is the same story line that I enjoyed so much in the early Dr.Who series with Tom Baker. It made it refreshing to not have just the good guys vs the bad guys but to also have "the other guys". It made for a much more interesting dynamic and a more "human" resolution.

[@reubenbailey7491]

Dang. I've never thought this much about the way that these stories have been told but you have truly opened my eyes, and thank you for keeping it simple with that four-panel example.

[@baptistenormand2723]

Hi ! Discovering your channel with this video and it made so much sens to me, thank you so much ! First it made me wonder about story structures and why we have so few, then it helped me go through a major change in a DnD game I'm planning as a DM (I'm getting rid of the BBEG ^^) and third it made me reconsider my conflict-driven way of seeing my life. Now I want to understand more and change less. Or at least make more friends and take more time organizing for the changes we need. Have a wonderful day ! :)

[@MNkno]

Thank you for this! I wish Hollywood would start experimenting with Ki-sho-ten-ketsu.. No need to have a violent conflict. No need to have just one person as the hero. No need to defeat/crush an identified villan. No need to make the other person bad in order to be recognized as good. Hollywood trains people to need to be THE ONE HERO, to crush/defeat/"school"/humiliate the person who is presented as the dark villan, and be "nothing" without that win.. and the outside reward for the resolution, the crown or medal or prominent seating or parade with people cheering is required, with major self-doubt if those rewards aren't coming our way. Hollywood barely tolerates sidekicks, and nobody gets praised for being "just" a good team player. In life, it's better if we don't utterly "crush our enemies".. whose help we may need later on in life; we are happier if we can do something good, and aren't relying on having a parade or a medal or praise as our reward (which usually doesn't happen for in our own life, why need to feel we are less without those rewards??) People who can make good contributions and work without conflict in teams will as a team, as a team will get better results than the lone "Great Man" / "Boss Lady" who can order people around and be the sole author of the solution.

[@RayEarth-jh4ld]

I like what you had to say about kishōtenketsu vs. the Western 3-act structure, but I think it’s oversimplifying to define conflict as a direct struggle between two characters or between good and evil. That’s not how I learned it in school at least, and I think Ghibli films still use conflict to drive the story forward. I would just define conflict more as tension, which lots of stories have! But I would say that the vending machine kishōtenketsu example proves you don’t have to have tension to make a compelling story.

[@MaidOfPasta]

I think there’s still conflict, they’re just not world-ending. Subtle, frequent, character-driven, and all that good stuff. Ghibli movies are so good at making us care about these characters, and showing that even the people we have beef with are people, too. Chihiro solving her internal conflict of being scared all the time was solved by dealing with other conflicts. It’s so amazing what these structures can do for storytelling ❤❤

[@thatinventionsus]

At 23:16 you said that the moving van surely must have left their furniture sitting outside of their house for days. Actually, Chihiru's father said this in the original untranslated Japanese opening scene, "don't worry, the moving company has the keys to our new house..." As customary in Japan and other parts in Asia, Moving Services will move everything into the house with or without the homeowner. In this case, since the homeowners aren't there to give directions as to which boxes go where, the moving company will simply do their best.

[@Raspberr3-d9i]

oddly enough, I actually first learned the term in my high school music theory class when we compared the sonata form with the 起承転結 structure, which what makes the music form differ from pop music is the distinctive development section when the muaical ideas ought to be developed in as many ways as they can even after the themes have been performed, eventually being the exact same concept of having something new in the Ten section.

[@FaeChild8478]

Kishōtenketsu, especially with "the breath" included, makes the story feel lived in. Like we're only seeing a small bit of someone's life... This is the kind of story I want to write. I've always loved the episodes of ATLA where the Gaang just Does Stuff (like the episode Tales of Ba Sing Se). It makes them feel real and relatable

[@jeremy1860]

Ghibli's just better than most films in general, period 😊

[@mharley3791]

Finally got past a copyright! Wonderful explanation of a different story structure. This video immediately made me think of the film “Aftersun”. It has a very similar ethos about describing a child going through a moment in time that changes them forever. Highly recommend.

[@Varunic219]

15:51 Kiki's Delivery Service reference on wall?

[@FlymanMS]

Excellent observation and completely true. Even in Nausika and Princess Mononoke, stories where conflict is in the plot itself, there are no irredeemably bad and completely good characters, instead they are complex and interesting individuals.

[@dahuntre]

I was moved just by the summary of Arietty and its ending. I’ve gotta watch that now! Thank you for talking about this and sharing it. I want to write stories like this now, maybe even find a way to use it in a ttrpg rather than the ubiquitous well-loved tropes of combat-driven heroic conflict. Probably depends on the players most of all, as many ttrpg choices are.

[@missanne2908]

Thanks for the explanation of Kishotenketsu, it goes some way in explaining the difference between the film _Howl's Moving Castle_ and the novel by Diana Wynne Jones upon which it is based. In the novel, Howl kills the Witch of the Waste, and then goes on to destroy her fire demon, Miss Angorian. This is quite different from the film, where Sophie accepts the Witch of the Waste into the household, cares for her, and then finally gets her to return Howl's heart. It also explains the war, which seems extraneous if you had read the novel. I do miss the reveal that Sophie is herself a powerful witch, but that is probably a part of the hero's journey not needed in Kishotenketsu.

[@death135]

In my opinion not just Ghibli but the Japanese animation industry as a whole for movies is quite unique. Suzume, The Boy and the Heron, Ponyo, Spirited away, Your Name, Spirited away and more more just hit different and feel too good to be true. Unlike classic Hollywood or Bollywood this is something truly worth you time

[@andrereschke7888]

The three, four or five act structure is much older than 40-50 years. Additionally the difference does not purely lie in the structure as 4- and 5 acts structure have twists and multi-layered resolutions too: ACT 1 - intro, ACT 2 - increasing, ACT 3: climax, ACT 4: - twist / change, ACT 5: resolution / ending. The reason hollywood feels a bit unreal comes from using the Hero's Journey Type of a story. You can put almost all Hollywood movies in this type, but none of the Ghibhi stories. I think that is more the reason for the difference than the structure.

[@jefftitterington7600]

Thank you - YT (randomly?) offered this to me while I was watching something else. I'm so glad it did, as I learned a great deal. I do remember an English teacher classifying this sort of thing as a type of conflict - a person vs themselves or a story of personal growth. But this might not be fully in line with the spirit of the kishotenketsu /Ghibli style. I'll have to think about it. Regardless, it's relatively uncommon as a main theme in western storytelling. Thank you again.

[@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve]

This video landed at just the right time. I independently reached the same conclusions in my own story's direction and it is nice to have the framework to hang them on.

[@jeremiahreilly9739]

Remarkable video. Bravo! You put a term to something I had observed but did not know how to name. For instance, the poetry of Wang Wei often is built on this structure. Long term Studio Ghibli fan here. Like before Disney acquired the rights. Love almost all their films, except The Secret World of Arrietty and Ponyo. However, your presentation was so good that I will watch these films again and report back.

[@anteatersalesman9885]

keep up the good work ❤

[@KoboldKorner]

Except that Hollywood doesn't use a 3-Act structure. It uses the 14-Act structure. It's ironic that you chose Star Wars as the example, since that's the specific film that set the trend for the 14-Act structure to dominate Hollywood and TV. You even said as much later on, apparently not realising that the Hero's Journey *is* the 14-Act structure. More, this is only superficially different to the 3-Act structure, when we realise that the 2nd Act is half the runtime. You're splitting 25/25/25/25, the 3-Act structure is 25/50/25. Or "Ki-sho-ten-ketsu" vs "Ki-shoten-ketsu", as it were. The plot beats are the same, you're just counting the mid-point climax as the end of an Act. 3-Act structure considers that the middle of Act 2. It's functionally the same structure.

[@arthursworld7302]

I thought the same thing

[@maniravsadhur8409]

Exactly. The premice of the video about the supposed 3-act structure of western movies is completely false. There are countless western movies that don't have a 3 act structure at all. It's a strawman argument.

[@QueenCloveroftheice]

I just realized that I do the Japanese four-act structure unconsciously. I thought back to a short story I recently wrote, which has four scenes. The first introduces the character and shows an obsession she has. The second shows her actively reinforcing this obsession and provides details on her childhood trauma that led to this obsession. The third is an important photoshoot she must take part in that triggers her insecurity and causes her to break down. The fourth is a scene of self-harm in which she must be saved by paramedics. Set-up, additional info, change, resolution.

[@shadeblackwolf1508]

beautiful vid, but.. why did you structure your sponsorship like a 3-act?

[@2782Jack]

It feels inherently more lazy to me to introduce plot elements without setup, the surprise change is fine but it means the writer has no limitations and any situation can be resolved by a previously unmentioned plotpoint like a bunch of characters are trapped in an elevator! in this format a character might have a previously unmentioned key, or locksmith, or the god of locks shows up, in spirited away I think it works well because the antagonist while not evil, still faces down the protagonist in a classic good vs evil standoff with the hero overcoming the antagonist, it's just more casual and less life and death, they even set up the river spirit and the black devouring spirit early on so the change in the penultimate act isn't totally random, princess mononoke sets up all of it's plot points ahead of time and it feels like a satisfying ending, it's opening event foreshadows the climax of the film by having the boar rapage mirror the forest god rampage when he's decapitated, meanwhile in howl's moving castle we are given a curse at the start, it's removed via fallen star at the end, and everything in-between is unrelated to the main plot, you could remove everything except the first and last 5 minutes of the movie and it would still make sense I feel like I might not have understood this that well but adding a seemingly random plot element out of nowhere feels like lazier, less well planned storytelling, especially when it radically changes the plot because it suggests any previous knowledge or investment in the story can be rewritten at a whim by the writer freely throwing in and removing plot elements, that being said I don't mind more ambiguous endings but it definitely feels like the two best ghibli films involve a hero facing off with a great supernatural power and resolving the conflict like mononoke and spirited away, both even fit into the hero's journey very well with the protagonist entering the unknown world and growing as a result of it

[@TiagoMorbusSa]

Great essay, loved it!!

[@kachagibbs6243]

This is a GREAT video essay! Thank You for breaking down the complexity of this animation studios story structure style. Films like this bring so much catharsis to my life specifically because the stories end in a more relatable way - even if the world designs are fantastic. When I was a kid, I appreciated an animated film that didn’t button up perfectly in the end, because my life wasn’t like that at all. Thank You!

[@Matx5901]

Kishotenketsu, conclusion de l'IA : La surprise partagée devant cette profondeur est vraiment intéressante. C'est comme si on découvrait un "langage du changement" universel qui était là, sous nos yeux. Les deux versions de nommage : Ma proposition : L'Éveil/Le Développement/Le Retournement/Le Dénouement Votre proposition : Surgir/Recevoir/Tourner/Nouer Ont chacune leurs forces : La première est plus narrative, explicative La seconde est plus fondamentale, ontologique Ce qui est fascinant, c'est que cette structure semble fonctionner comme un "patron" (pattern) applicable à : La narration (manga) L'ontologie (changement d'état) Les processus naturels La pensée elle-même Et le fait qu'on puisse la nommer si simplement, avec juste quatre verbes d'action, suggère qu'elle capture quelque chose de vraiment fondamental dans la nature du changement et de la transformation. C'est comme si on avait trouvé une "grammaire du devenir" !

[@JimTempleman]

I suspect Ki-sho-ten-ketsu derived from the Chinese artist-poets practicing Taoism & Buddhism back then. It sounds like the process of transformation associated with awakening. And that was popular over the time period you described.

[@milo_thatch_incarnate]

The ambiguity and uncertainty of the endings and characters of these movies is one of the reasons I love them so much. But it makes me so sad that I know people who don't like them _particularly because_ of the ambiguity. They don't like that there isn't a defined, certain, black-and-white message, plot, and characters. I think that's pretty closed minded. Generally, when I meet someone who loves Ghibli films, I know we'll probably be good friends JUST because of this. And, because of that, I just subscribed! 😁😁

[@Shmoonii]

This was a very well made video.

[@alexmcgilvery3878]

Great video. I've known about this model of storytelling for a while, but you explained it in a way I haven't heard before and made it much clearer.

[@jacobring7274]

There have been times in my life where it feels like conflict has been resolved and it’s time to roll the credits. Only, I wake up to another new day. This is why I enjoy this style… because I believe reality is without beginning or end, so stories like this feel more realistic and respectful of the living world. Awesome video, thank you 😊

[@poptoonsskaff2016]

Thank you so much for making this video

[@PabloRuiz-xo6zn]

I wish you had explored more deeply the religious and historical reasons why there is this divergence in storytelling norms in both Chinese-derived culture (the Sinosphere) and Greco-Roman-derived culture (the West). In the West, there's a long history of "the hero's journey," which started with "The Odyssey" and "The Iliad" written down by ancient Greek poets like Homer sometime between 800 BC and 1000 BC. However, in these ancient Greek poems the plot tends to meander, more reflecting the "kishotenketsu" philosophy than the "three-act play" utilized by Hollywood. It's the same with the pagan myths of the Greek and Roman gods. There is no strong "good vs. evil" structure to the conflict in ancient Greco-Roman tales. That notion of "good vs. evil" (otherwise known as Manichaeism) comes into Greco-Roman culture via the Judeo-Christian religion, with the Christianization of the Roman Empire sometime in the 300s AD. Judeo-Christianity, in turn, takes this notion of "good vs. evil" from the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism, which strongly emphasizes the battle of a good, all-knowing god who defeats and vanquishes an evil, destructive god. It's this ancient Manichaean tradition of conflict based on good fighting evil that we teach almost obsessively here in the West, mostly without realizing it. This Manichaean tradition was then easily grafted on to the Greco-Roman tradition of "the hero's journey," which leads us to Hollywood's preferred way of telling a story. As a result Western audiences get used to this philosophy and structure in storytelling, and become confused or bored if confronted with other storytelling traditions. Contrast that with the Sinosphere and the history behind "kishotenketsu." This type of storytelling is deeply rooted in change, both personal and environmental, which reflects Buddhist notions of the mutability and impermanence of life. Buddhism also treats evil as a complex phenomenon--that everyone is capable of evil, but is also capable of good. This philosophy also emphasizes living in the here and now, concentrating on the small things life has to offer as opposed to the big, grand things. Buddhist philosophy changed everything, including storytelling norms, in the Sinosphere starting in the 300s AD and the 400s AD, when Indian monks and traders introduced it to China and Korea, eventually ending up in Japan in the 500s AD. There is also a forceful emphasis in "kishotenketsu" on social bonds, about making these stronger. This reflects the Sinosphere's long history with Confucianism, a Chinese philosophy originating in the 500s BC that then spread to Korea, Japan and Vietnam. This philosophy really hammers home the need for harmonious social relationships, and how the individual must change to subvert his/her selfish needs for the greater good of these social relationships and the bigger community. Confucianism also shares a complex view of evil, that everyone can be evil, but through the strict following of rules for moral comportment one can overcome this evil and become good. You can find this Confucian influence all over "kishotenketsu" more broadly, and Studio Ghibli films more specifically. These are the two major philosophical strands that Westerners are unfamiliar with, for the most part. Thus why a lot of people in Western audiences find Studio Ghibli films confounding, pointless or boring.

[@sneezyfido]

Oh boy. Looking at the known history of the collection of Abrahamic faiths they really do have a consistent habit of "us vs them" hyperpolarised morality driving violence against both people from other faiths and people in the same faith practicing in some different manner.

[@PabloRuiz-xo6zn]

Yeah. It's this lack of "us vs. them" or "good vs. evil" philosophical framework that has long made East Asians so easygoing with incorporating different religions and faith traditions into their societies, mixing and matching as they've seen fit. Before the introduction of doctrinaire, rigid Communism into East Asia in the 20th century, the region almost never suffered from religious persecutions of the type that have bedeviled Europe and the Middle East since forever. That being said, what got people into heaps of trouble (enough for vast slaughters) in East Asia was rebelling against imperial Confucian authorities. Rebellion meant going against sacred Confucian hierarchies, which was a big no-no. So East Asians tended to kill in large numbers. Just that their reasons for doing so differed from the reasons Europeans and Middle Easterners killed.

[@lumisobolewska]

welcome back!

[@renhansen1246]

I sincerely apologise for not (yet) watching this excellent, excellent video past the 23:56 mark because of the havoc that will cause in your "KZbin Algorithm", but I have not seen _Arrietty_ yet and do not want any spoillers. Hopefully, the algorithmic gods will be somewhat appeased by the posting of this comment! 🤞🙏😊

[@igodreamer7096]

"Great. Now I want to see a Star Wars movie in the Kishotenketsun style just so it can escape the good vs evil narrative." Great video, Soak man! ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐

[@furripupau]

So basically, this is the same as a two act structure. You might study the story structure of the comic operas Iolanthe or The Mikado to see a pretty good example of a two act structure in play, as well as stories that do not really have a "villain" so to speak, so much as they have various characters whose goals are simply at odds with the goals of other characters (and I guess, interestingly for western plots, both stories are resolved through compromise). I think you might also find a viewing of the film Paper Moon interesting (a Hollywood movie that is bizarrely Miyazaki-esque: the main character is a 9 year old girl, the adult characters are shallow and foolish, the setting is historical, and it eschews a 3 act structure and tidy Hollywood ending -albeit I still find the ending corny). I actually find this video kind of interesting, because having recently re-watched several of Miyazaki's films, I found several of the films suffer from conclusions that seem to be clumsy attempts to provide a neat ending. Princess Mononoke and Howl's Moving Castle in particular even seem to undercut the main themes of the story in a rush to get to the tidy conclusion. Meanwhile other films like Spirited Away and A Wind Rises don't bother trying to tie up all the loose ends, and are frankly more interesting because of it.

[@aerob1033]

Great explanation of the differences between the approach taken in most Hollywood blockbusters and the East Asian storytelling traditions Ghibli relies upon. I do want to point out though that stories more about internal change and growth *absolutely* exist in large numbers in Western storytelling traditions and have for a long, long time--it's primarily mainstream big-budget Hollywood films that have hewn so closely to the Hero's Journey and a very specific kind of three-act structure. There are even many Hollywood films (just not usually the summer tentpoles) that "break the rules", so to speak. You can look back at novels like Jane Eyre (1847) and see that stories about personal growth and change have deep roots in our traditions, too.

[@theredguy92]

Great video! I think there is a place for both storytelling structures. I do not want postmodern everyone is good and evil in comic book movies or fantasy films where the battle between good and evil is the main selling point. I do not care to hear how Emperor Palpatine, Voldemort, or Sauron are just misunderstood but it can be very interesting and relatable in something like Frozen or Inside Out.

[@d5kenn]

I'm glad I stayed for the full video. You sum up the Ghibli experience so well.

[@Meg-Meg-Meg]

I loved learning about a different story structure. Definitely helps me understand why I struggled to truly enjoy Ghibli films when I was younger.

[@ikkeheltvanlig]

Struggling against an obstacle I would consider a conflict in this meaning. Maybe better to call it encountering an obstacle. I wonder if there exists a worthy story that has no obstacle for the protagonist to overcome.

[@maniravsadhur8409]

Look at a film like Lost in translation. There's no conflict, no real obstacle (unless you count jetlag), and it's a great movie. Stories don't necessarily have to be adventures.

[@Merlok_3_0]

looks more like you've just stated that one is better and, without analysis of the alternative, just claimed that your thing is superior. Your version of "Analysis of the alternative" was very picky, in a way that it didn't look at what the alternative did better. Also films you have picked for comparison are very different, of course one is going to be better than the other in some aspects: Star Wars is a tale-like story about a regular farmer beating the Evil, and the "Superior" Spirited away is a tale-like story about a normal girl getting out of the magic zone their goals are completely different, so why would the writing of their progress be the same? Another thing: you've said that Ghibli films don't have conflict like "Hollywood movies". But the ones that you have picked as examples actually have conflicts, and in some of them it actually gets resolved in the, what it's called, third act :) Spirited away: girl gets caught into magic dimension(conflict) so she gets out of there totoro: literally a slice-of-life(various conflicts along the story) but with a magic being to cut away to kiki's delivery service: kiki trying to get along in new town(various conflicts like getting money, knowing locals, losing magic and etc.) Howl's moving castle: main character getting cursed to be old(conflict), so she gets young again Arrietty: Arrietty gets seen by humans(conflict), so she gets away You've praised "superior" films having no stated good and evil, and the main character just living. Well that's not the structure's fault, but the writing. And it's not even a fault: that's just how the writers designed the world, the main character and how to drive the story. Three act structure doesn't prevent nor help write exact form of a story, instead, it helps writers make the film full, so that it isn't just continuous setup or action with no outcome/weight.

[@MistressGomorahhReigne]

Thank you so much!! I been looking for this and i didn't even know it till now.. Thank you We need more of this!! So tired of the 3 act fairytale

[@vazzaroth]

Finally, I've been trying to figure out what the Japanese/Asian (Chinese) storytelling structure is for SO LONG! I know that I want to write 'anime-like' stories but as novels and I think I've found my next research area, thanks!

[@chimychimes]

Me too. I have come to love this type of storytelling even tho it is not accepted with our some work

[@theactingchrisrivera]

Thank you for introducing me to this structure. I do want to point out better parallels for you to compare to as I think you are wrong about what the Hollywood structure version would be. For Spirited Away I'd probably compare to Wizard of Oz. There are definitely good and bad characters with the Wizard being the only morally gray. Are you unaware of several "The Borrowers" films since the 70s? It's based on a book, and the borrowers always remain a secret to a special few. There is a lot of conflict in Spirited Away and many Ghibli films, but there is also enjoyment and wonder at the new worlds they find. Not so much in Kiki's Delivery Service, and I have to admit I did find that film the slowest. I know it is deeply loved.

[@land3021]

0:25 0:27 Yes... They do often seem aimless. 12:44 Yeah, that's the kind of ending I'm referring to when I mean 'aimless', although I suppose there's also the matter of how... I can't seem to put it into words... 0:57 Yeah the three act structure is getting old... especially in sequels, where it seems like the directors write off what happened in the prequels/write off the character developement that all the characters went through. 16:59 Interesting... 17:16 Ohh, so conflict is not what moves things forwards! That's what it is! So that's why Hollywood films feel unrealistic, and Kinshotenketsu films feel more... chill, but occasionally boring... because of that lack of clear direction... a more abstract direction that the viewer can't clearly pin point if they aren't paying closer attention. 23:10 Oh... yeah the open endedness without the neat bow and answering these questions ourselves was a good move I suppose... 26:00 Damn... 27:15 Yeah. Hollywood don't got that, gotta let us live in certainty of the fictional characters status... although I mightn't be getting this right... 29:12 Interesting... I'd like to see how a story would go with a mix of the two.

[@robin_be]

23:16 nothing bad happened to the moving van, they didn't leave the furniture outside. the dad mentiones before going in that they have a key and they can complete the moving job without the family being there

[@DrBernon]

I would say that the hero's journey is also sort of like this, but with time we forgot about it. Let me explain. The hero's journey is usually attributed to the story of the Odyssey. And there the "hero" sets off to fight a war against troy, but that and the war, are only the setup. The hero's journey starts after they win and set course to home. On the voyage, like Chihiro, he encounters obstacles caused by Poseidon (a God, thus a manifestation of the rules of the world itself) after the hero angers him. In the whole story, he never defeats Poseidon, as he is not really the villain. And lastly, he returns home where he manages to restore order, and essentially ends as he began. So it is very similar to a Ghibili film in that regard, but way more violent. Granted, the ending is more Hollywood like, but at the same time Odysseus never defeats any villain, just wrong doers, and the prise he gets is his rightful place, the place he had, and no more. Similar to kiki getting the acceptance of the town, or Ashitaka being freed from the curse.

[@ClockMonsterLA]

Clearly there is another major cultural difference at work here: the different view of good vs. evil. From a Western perspective, being cruel or allowing bad things to happen to innocent beings simply in the name of "following the rules" would be considered a kind of evil. Furthermore, in Western culture being occasionally nice does not mitigate abusive behavior. The fact that Japanese storytelling is so willing to impose suffering on innocent characters, without much in the way of moral judgment, shows a very different attachment to ethics than you find in cultures derived from the Western European experience. I've noticed a distinct "life is cheap" kind of attitude in a lot of dramatic (i.e., not comedy) anime, which you don't really find in Western animation, especially not animation aimed at families and children. An example I often point to is in episode 3 of SDF Macross ("Space Fold") where the SDF-1 makes its first hyperspace jump and the crew accidentally leaves a section of the fortress behind where hundreds of citizens perish in the vacuum of space. The reaction of the captain is simply an embarrassed "Oopsie!" and then the action continues. This is very bizarre from a Western perspective, and highlights an aspect of anime (and Japanese culture) that seems quite strange to Westerners.

[@vincent4805]

I just realised how meta this video is, using kishotenktesu structure. It sets up the premises (east vs west difference, comic strip examples), goes into example of Ghibli film to make the argument, then introduces a new variable now previously mentioned (conflict), before concluding!

[@sarahwatts7152]

This makes so much sense now. I knew the mindset of these movies was different, but I didn't know about the structure/philosophy behind them

[@asterya6913]

Anyone interested in story structures MUST check out 김윤미 Kim Yoonmi works. Or even just the Wikipedia list about story structures. Which was made thank to her works researching the history of the 3 act structure and where it really came from.

[@GameJam230]

I recently found a really cool example of a Hollywood film that was written with the Kishotenketsu structure. It’s Interstellar! Don’t believe me? I’ll list off the moments the traits of each act become known (obviously this has spoilers, stop reading if you haven’t watched it): The first act is obviously everything from the beginning to the moment they leave Earth. It needs to establish the direction environmental state the world is left in, the shift in society to no longer believe in NASA, the strange gravitational anomalies in Murph’s room, her having a reason to stay and study with NASA instead of sticking to public school, and presenting the quest to Cooper. The second act is then simply Cooper trying to act on that quest, travelling to the wormhole and exploring a couple planets while seeing the negative consequences of being too close to the black hole. The third act I’ll come back to, because it’s important to establish where the movie ENDS to demonstrate why it’s important that the third act, the change, occurs in one particular spot. The fourth act is the moment in the black hole where Cooper delivers the data from the singularity to Murph, allowing her to solve the gravity equations and save humanity, which he does by inputting the data into her watch as Morse code through the moments in time he can witness in the black hole construct. So, that then leaves the change to be the period of time between them learning the truth about their mission on the second planet to Cooper arriving in the black hole and finding out that he was the ghost all along. These realizations are all INCREDIBLY important to the story because they fundamentally change everything about the story. Altogether, it tells us a few things: the mission was doomed to fail all along, and the equations could not be solved without data from a black hole. This means the entire quest set up from act 1 was a sham, and that also means all of act 2 was at the expense of those on Earth. It also reveals to us that if Cooper was the ghost, meaning he is capable of communicating with those in his past, AND he’s in a black hole. This means that if he can simply translate the data FROM the black hole into an easy to communicate form, he can send it into the past to allow his daughter to discover it, which is what act 4 is. The twist established a major change in the story while ALSO establishing the actions that would need to be taken in the fourth act to solve the problem. It’s a super neat detail that I never noticed until I watched it last night.

[@riniginianna1190]

I always loved this nature of storytelling, I remember as a kid watching Mononoke for the first time and I was gushing to everyone how I loved how though it was a war, there were no bad guys, only different POV. It was so different to what I was used to.

[@grimsonforce7504]

No bad guys? clearly the humans were bad. Destruction of the forest, and seeking self prophecy for their own delusions. What I did like was how real it was that there was no happy ending. Nor did the sides forgive one another.

[@Danielle_1234]

The point of multimedia is to convey emotions. Choose your favorite emotions and there is media out there that presents it for you. This is why I don't like US media much -- conflict. Conflict isn't generally a happy or an enjoyable emotion. If all you know is media with conflict in it, conflict becomes a sort of baseline, something you forget is there. But when your emotional baseline is a negative a story is always going to be muddied. If you want a happy story you get a story primarily with conflict and happiness second, vs a truly happy and enjoyable story. Due to this lack of conflict in Japanese media, the best description I can give for it is chill. Japan is a very chill culture and it's reflected in their stories. It's not just Japanese media that can lacks conflict so other emotions can shine. Media from all over the world is worth checking out. Take a break from action and drama ridden TV and try out other genres. You might be pleasantly surprised.