The Best Takedown for Self Defense

The giveaway mentioned in this video is over but you can still support the channel by visiting Revgear at www.revgear.com/?aff=8
Follow Mike:
Facebook: / icymikep
Twitter: / icymikep
Instagram: / icymikep
My Kit: www.kit.co/icymikep
Podcast: icymike.podbean.com/
DISCLAIMER: This video and description contain affiliate links, which means that if you click on them, hard2hurt receives a small commission. This helps support the hard2hurt channel and allows us to continue to make videos like this. Thanks for supporting us and stay hard2hurt.
Music:
Title Song is Lying Low
Royalty Free music by www.contimusic.com

[@hard2hurt]

Go to this link to win a $500 Revgear gift card: revgear.com/hard2hurtemailsignup/

[@miguelnovais3878]

Do I need to be from the USA?

[@jackb7494]

One of the best things about your channel and videos is how you give the pros and cons of each move.

[@BLOODY_HAMMER_CREW]

Excellent points Sensei. Don’t bother with haters talkin crap, because they are exactly the ones who don’t train. They just watch guys like us who do. Couch keyboard warriors in their mamas basement.

[@edizzle62]

Does is have to be the same email that I use for KZbin?

[@ryanwoodhouse3220]

No place on the link to put my email

[@Jmartinmma]

If it’s not the concrete suplex I’ll be disappointed

[@mathewpercy3292]

He self defence not murder

[@Jmartinmma]

@@mathewpercy3292 I mean, they can’t hurt you if they’re a vegetable right?

[@driver3899]

@@mathewpercy3292 shooting someone is self defence or murder?

[@brianwatson4119]

​@@driver3899depends on what your other options were.

[@MeLoNHeAd00]

Isn't wrestling fake ? Lol

[@shadowsmirk]

The position you like is better than mount or side control or knee--on-belly, because you can escape easier if he has a friend coming to join the fight. As you stated, you only need "enough" control, and having excess control limits your escape options.

[@samhinzman2018]

That’s a really good point.

[@raydrexler5868]

Been soccer kicked in my head because I committed to a choke with other a-holes around. Valuable experience.

[@poleag]

But how hard is it to get up from knee-on-belly? It really shouldn't take more than half a second unless you're really out of shape.

[@shadowsmirk]

@@poleag You are correct, the difference is slight.

[@theseukonnen1200]

sounds like a classic case of "you have to master the rules before you can get away with breaking them"

[@MannspreadVonCarstein]

If you have a look at John Danaher's Feet to Floor Vol.2, he goes in-depth on takedowns for self defence informed by his time as a bouncer. Every takedown he recommends is low amplitude, and allows you to remain standing over your opponent. High single trips, and this one in particular, as it doesn't take much to put someone on the ground with that method.

[@hard2hurt]

This one is in it? That would be neat.

[@brianwatson4119]

I'll always take staying standing. My arts are all about knocking them down while staying upright. I don't want to be on the ground. I don't want his friends playing soccer with my head.

[@tronbonn]

@@hard2hurtFeet 2 Floor - 2, Chapter: Strategy 2 half way through the explanation he hits a very similar takedown. 👍

[@driver3899]

@@tronbonn does he talk about self defence much in feet2 floor or is it just for this take down? steep price tag but might be worth checking out, I have zero interest in sport grappling though

[@peartree8338]

I miss Icy Danaher and Icy Enkamp. Where did those guys go? Oh and let's not forget Ramsey Mike. Those were the days. 😁

[@Kthomasritchie]

"For self defence, we really don't need to control our opponent that much". Bang! The fundamental problem with BJJ right there.

[@RobertN734]

I'm a know-nothing hobbyist boxer, but the thing pointing me toward Judo over BJJ is that I don't want to be on the ground in a real life encounter. BJJ seems like too much control. I do not need to finish a fight in real life. I need to stay safe and run away at the first opportunity. I can do that striking or throwing. I cannot run away while trying for a submission.

[@jonharker9028]

I do think I’d prefer judo over BJJ in a lot of contexts (and thus as my potential base for grappling), but situationally there may be times where BJJ is more appropriate. Sitting down in a crowded space, or if you’ve tripped over something or if someone else is just bigger or sneakier so that you’re on the ground anyway. Also for certain domestic violence situations. Ne waza / groundfighting *is* still part of judo, but its importance is vastly different in its competitive context, so you have to be aware of that when looking at judo gyms.

[@Wanderinwonder427]

Competitive judo does not have much grappling I spent 2 years in judo and switched to bjj because my sensei consolidated our school and I couldn’t afford the drive so I took up jiu jitsu one thing I found is a lot of times I throw people trained or untrained is they hang on for dear life causing me to fall with them judo is great I really miss it but jiu jitsu has enough standing grappling to deal with most any untrained person

[@thesaltyone4400]

I train Bjj about 2 years in and I would only use it in a 1v1 and as a last resort like I'm injured and they on top already so I always endure when I train as well and practice escapes usually don't use the attacks because tbh I would just bite, elbow and eliminate instead of bargaining in a life or death situation. It's good if you ever have to defend against someone you love as well

[@buttnuttz6119]

One of the first techniques I learned at my BJJ place was the ogoshi (a standing takedown) but yeah BJJ has a big emphasis on ground fighting

[@AndrijaAndric-jf8vk]

i believe BJJ can teach you some basic ground grappling principles so you can defend yourself if someone else takes you down, as unlikely as it may sound. It is also really fun, so I do recommend trying it out anyway. But yeah Judo rocks.

[@philsterboyy]

I could tell that wasn’t fake. The physics behind that take down are sound. You quickly changing directions and then pulling back and downwards, not allowing the opponents feet time to recover themselves. It makes complete senses. I think all the grapplers and wrestlers in your audience understand right away it’s legit. 🤙 Thank you Icy Mike

[@OldManPaxusYT]

i'm not a regular here but _every_ time i watch one of his videos, i'm impressed with how i agree with everything! Man KNOWS his stuff! (I'm 50 w loooooooads of real life experience/fighting/martial arts/self defense/arresting angry, violent ppl etc)

[@tallguy2023]

Having options is always worthwhile. Not everything works, and not every self defense situation is life or death. What if it a drunk uncle at a BBQ or a bipolar teen off their meds? Great video.

[@fireeaglefitnessmartialart935]

I think that's what makes grappling a better system for self defense over striking. Cuz you can detain/subdue someone without really hurting them, but can be applied if necessary.

[@tallguy2023]

@fireeaglefitnessmartialart935 they are all relevant and related. Striking, grappling, ground work, and weapon defense all have to work together. Saying one is better than another is... suspect.

[@rohitchaoji]

@@tallguy2023 I do get where the other commenter is coming from. It's all situational, and in the example you provided, grappling is better than other systems and approaches, because people are a lot more likely to come across such situations (drunk relative or co-worker being a bit too much or someone with mental illness not on their meds) than random street muggings. Of course you're not wrong that they're all relevant and related. It's always best to know more than know less.

[@notannie4798]

Tbh it s gonna most defense situation most people will ever run into. Same for women who are way more likely to be attacked by their husband than a rando. People are just uncomfortable wit that

[@mattduffyw99]

This is exactly right. People are waaay more likely to run into a self-defense scenario in real life where they don't want/need to violently put an end to it. Bad guys exist, but there are way more drunk uncles out there, and cracking skulls ain't the answer to those problems. If you work with kids and had to break up a fight, this is a perfect technique for safely breaking it up without ending up in newspaper afterwards.

[@OverproofMMA]

This sort of training is in my opinion an essential part of martial arts for character building. You don't just teach students how to obliterate untrained folks, you also teach them how to deal with violent encounters in less lethal ways or in less commited ways. It's a form of restraint which also has practical benefits.

[@saschadaniels6879]

My teacher always says:" you probably don't want to break your unruly and drunken uncle's knee about the question if he drives home from the party." There are other options.

[@RedSilkPhotos]

I think you raise some great points. One of the biggest issues with "self-defense" is the legal aspects. What are the consequences of dropping an attacker on his head on concrete and potentially killing him vs getting a loose control position and running away. Dealing with an attacker on the street has unknowns that a fight in the ring doesn't have. I think the complexities of legal, unknown accomplices, and unknown weapons makes "self-defense" techniques harder. Training for sport definitely gives a big leg up though.

[@jomess7879]

In regards to forgoing more control for enough control is i think something that is worth exploring. In bjj, having lots of control is favored. All your weight, no space, heavy. The more control you have, the more dominant your position is. Full mount is more dominant than knee on belly and back mount is more dominant than full mount. But for self defense, knee on belly is sometimes better because you can move better. Mobolity and control tends to be on a gradient or spectrum. The more mobile you are, the less control you have and the more control you have, the less mobile you are. (not all always, but often enough). In my opinion, going from mobilty to more control is easier than going from control to more mobility. So having enough control and being able to go up and down the control-mobility spectrum is important. Self defense tends to favor having more mobility over having lots of control. Having enough control to still be mobile is important to practice and it isn't rewarding and can look fake. But it still needs to be done.

[@jaredmackey4511]

Depends on the bjj practitioner and whether they prefer to use pressure or mobility. Small guys tend to use their nimbleness in a position. But you’re right, a knee to the diaphragm while being able to scan and move is the way to go. If the goal is to get away from the person.

[@mannyjl625]

Great video! Been waiting for someone to finally address this. Always seems like people who bash grappling for self defense never acknowledge that if you're an experienced grappler, you have the option to take someone down without committing to rolling around on concrete. For controlling most untrained people, tradition positions like side control and mount are likely overkill anyway, plus the added downside of reduced awareness of your surroundings while in those tighter positions. Also, totally agreed that if you can't do the more basic sport-style grappling, you're gonna have a bad time trying less sporty techniques that actually require more grappling skill. Combat sports training may not always be sufficient for self-defense readiness, but it sure is a prerequisite.

[@sirseigan]

Great point you are making that a experinced grappler do not nessecerly need to roll around on the concrete! For an example: A style I've been training with roots in tradtional Japanese JuJutsu use kicks and punches to break the opponents posture/balance to open up for a throw/take down. Once the throw is done it is done in such a way that the opponent have hard time landing well (make them land on shoulders, neck, stomach or face, change direction in the middle, slam them down, make them land on a knee etc etc). As soon as they hit the ground there is often a follow up with a dropped spearing knee to an exposed area (like face, neck, ribs, stomach, groin/inside the hip or major mucles) often while controling a joint in some way. Ofc there could from there be any number of followups with strikes, weapons, chokes or joint locks/break to finnishing it if needed. However the most important thing in this context is the goal to quickly disengage in anticipation of another attacker, while still preceive the first oponent as a lingering potential threat. So instead of using the strikes as a "knock out tool" the gravity is used in the shape of slams to the ground and dropped knees, often in order to destroy rather the control, and the disengage. Rolling around on the concrete batteling over control in order to achive submission is not a goal. This due to the danger of potential multiple attackers. Not saying that is the best strategy. I am saying that is a strategy in where a grappler do not primary aim toward commiting to rolling around on the concrete. To give another example: One of the most surgical/meassured self defences I have seen in real life was a defense against a strike to the face where the attacked avioded the attack by stepping in and grab the attackers collar while pushing him backwards to break his balance. The defender then proceed to spin a couple of full turns, like a discus thrower, and the attacker was pressed outward by the cetrefugal force in the spin - while moving some distance. Then defender then suddenly stopped the spins and did a beatiful high classical judo hip throw. The attackers hip bone/pelvice met those edgestones that elevates the pavement from the road upon landing, by the defenders design. The attacker did not rise again. No extra control nor rolling around was needed because he used the ground as a "knock out tool", not a place to battl for control leading in to a submission.

[@driver3899]

the problem with grappling styles though is that it trains you over and over to be on the ground with your opponent in real life situations you dont want to be on the ground with your attacker you want to know how to get out from under them / how not to get dragged to the ground by them in the first place and thats about it

[@samuraiartguy]

I recall a proverb from Japanese Jujutsu stylists, “good to have excellent ground technique, but better you stay up, knock other guy down. Maybe stab.” Seems consistent, given the original styles were based on the assumption you’re in a crowd of violent people with four foot razor blades. They have a fair point!

[@Freejason33]

@@driver3899 but you need repetitions with grapplers/wrestlers to train those skill sets, regardless. Perhaps you just mean that certain gyms do not put enough focus on self defense grappling.

[@sirseigan]

@@samuraiartguy Haha excelent point.

[@pkwitbrod]

“You don’t need your eyes in combat sports.” That’s a really good point and something that I like about you. You talk about looking around. It’s really easy to get focused on one thing and forget everything else.

[@skyereave9454]

Ironically, rolling in a small space with a big class helps with this. We constantly are watching for each other for safety but it .akes people more aware of their surroundings. Anything that helps I guess.

[@karate7173]

A very refreshing aspect to practical self defence. There is also a rare honestly to the video.

[@TheFiddleGuy]

I definitely agree with your point of view here. you need basic combat experience to practically use most self defense techniques, and you need to use these techniques in realistic combat situations, not against a forgiving and stationary target. self defense tactics and techniques have their place, but only coupled with basic sparring/rolling/ etc., in my opinion

[@PK2Fresh]

one thing I really enjoy about your videos is how succinctly and candid you conclude them. If you don't know where you're going with it, you don't know where you're going with it

[@practicaltaekwondo8164]

Great stuff as always Mike! Regarding your question, I think it's worth it when contextualized properly and given specific goals that have crossover between self-defense and combat sports. For example, the partners take roles as attacker or defender, and are given their goals. The attacker's goals are usually to land strikes to the head, execute a takedown, or access a weapon once a clinch is established. The defender's goals are usually to minimize damage received, monitor the hands and waistband, and stay standing or in a dominant position like the one you showed around 4:30 -- with the ultimate goal being to have either enough control that they can land fight-ending strikes or access their weapon, and disengage when possible. As you know, you can give them any number of variations on these goals. Orient them in such a way that they need to get past the attacker and get to a doorway behind them (crossover: maneuvering off the cage/well to reverse the position or controlling the center of the arena). Defender must minimize damage while on the bottom of mount/side mount, including preventing access to a weapon, and get to their feet or some other position (crossover: exactly the same minus weapons). And so on. So long as the overall skills being developed have crossover, I think it's worth it.

[@DanielWallace]

I think it is absolutely worthwhile to train things like this if your focus is non-sports fighting. You can benefit from it for sports too, since things rarely work out like you wanted them to, so beeing used to non-optimal variants is not a bad thing. What I like about this whole sequence is that there are few ways that leave you worse off than before, if you screw up. E.g. if the timing is not right, you can just try again. For most people, this will feel like a bunch of pushing and pulling and they will not even notice what you tried to do there.

[@dogabutila]

I think once someone is at the level they can hit the sport techniques its important to continue to reframe and train for self defense. One good example is the video you did with Jesse. He's been training MA and fighting for awhile, but since it wasn't continuously reframed for self defense once he was at the level, he followed you to the ground instead of running away, he didn't call for help etc. When we're good at fighting because we've practiced fighting so much, we're treating the engagement as a fight instead of self defense. Once you get to the level people can execute techniques then you have to train for self defense instead of just sport or fighting.

[@Cryley]

I think for those that need techniques without hurting people this is better. Especially if you're a bouncer/security. Maybe youre dealing with a relative or someone you know.

[@zchrisb]

I am a striker, not a grappler, but personally I think that in the context of an armed person, this is better. Showing you can disengage on your terms feeling what the guy does. However at the same time I don't think I would want to give the ability for someone to muscle out of something, I want good control and have him do something that I want that he can't do much about. It is a bit of a dilemma, have better control or better escape options. If there is nothing really to worry about, control, if there is, escape. But you won't know which is the case until it is too late so probably escape.

[@perryBJJ]

Very similar to what I know as a "Hip Crush Takedown" but using biceps/elbow control instead of a rear Bear Hug. These types of takedowns where you "sit" someone down from the rear are great, because they're safe, they work and are easy to learn. We do it with a Gable Grip around the hips but, same idea. The control you're showing makes sense for tha StREeTz!

[@Raiden4019]

So, here's where I think we're at. We're back around at the point where we are looking at concepts and techniques and principles that were emphasized as high priority by old-school self defense guys going back as far as Colonel William E. Fairbairn and his "gutter-fighting" system in WWII. However, we now recognize that these high priority techniques that have also been marketed as "simple, effective, gross-motor, and efficient" do in fact have a very high skill ceiling, and would require an intuitive understanding and knowledge normally only acquired after a long and lengthy career in martial arts and combat sports. Interestingly enough, every so-called "self defense system" in existence usually boils down to handpicked techniques selected by people who themselves DO have lengthy backgrounds in combat sports. Imi Licthenfeld, the founder of Krav Maga, was a wrestler and boxed. Fairbairn did Judo, Catch, Savate, and Chinese martial arts. This trend is still continuing with stuff like Gracie Survival Tactics, Tim Kennedy's Sheepdog Response organization, and Craig's Extreme Close-Quarter Concepts. I suppose the question that needs to be asked is: Is it even possible or feasible to teach/deliver these high-level principles to people who have next to no background in fighting or athletics in a condensed period of time, and expect them to be able to execute them with consistent quality in a live environment? Or is everyone simply better off starting with modern combat sports, and only adding this kind of stuff in after 6 months - 1 year of training?

[@MrMarkc100]

My view is that you need to become comfortable with getting very close with people and grappling/sparring with people who are resisting you and you need to resist. You need to know what it is like to be physically dominated. You also need to develop general/core strength and stamina. Growing up playing sports like Rugby are excellent for those things, for the volume of contact time (in the forwards particularly) that you get.

[@adam5words688]

It's valid. It's worth some effort for higher level practicioners. In fact, the better you get I would imagine the more subtlely effective you become. Minimal effort for maximum output, it's not a muscle flexing contest in these super stressfull situations. Love it man.

[@KatoCoyoteCombatWorkshop]

I grew up on Judo and recently started traditional Jujutsu. The takedowns we're doing look a lot more like this and much less like a Judo throw. Real good stuff.

[@alexanderren1097]

Excellent! Reminds me that pretty much all the takedowns in traditional karate kata are also intended to put someone on the ground while staying on your feet. Unfortunately most karate schools don’t actually teach them and the few that do rarely pressure test them and very rarely do any sparring that involves takedowns

[@PHIplaytesting]

This is an excellent point about how all the "unknowns" about self defense situations can change things and should change your approach. In sport fighting, you can commit more to something as you know the game and the possible outcomes. In the street, things are not so clear. Keeping your options open-- makes perfect sense.

[@themetal]

I think I agree. The issue isn't that there definitely are techniques that are better in a situation where there are no rules and no one watching your back compare to the alternative. That's rudimentary philosophy to carve that out. The issue is going to be how you spend your time and what you get good at. Someone practicing combat sports is actually practicing combat, which is way more than I can say about the majority of anyone I've ever met who say they only practice "for the streetz". It's like the same issue with TCM. Plenty of valid stuff in a lot of it, but the vast majority of them don't fight. It'd be more effective to teach TCM to an experienced MMA fighter who already knows how to fight than it would be to teach a TCM "master" to start fighting. There is just no shortcut to getting good at fighting.

[@docabj8097]

Thank you for showing the best place to get "all up ins", Mike. Beyond the perfect HSR reference, you actually helped me see the possible flaws of S-Mount in a self-defense scenario.

[@blainestevens6701]

I did wrestling for eight years, more or less, but once you drop off of constant practice, it gets hard to have a good power double or ankle pick or whatever. Never mind the concrete. But a duck under to seatbelt grip to kicking the back of the ankle and pull can always work. Sometimes if I feel him hulk out on one side, I’ll cinch up to the opposite side and make like I’m trying to look over their shoulder and figure out what they’re doing, but really i’m just letting them reset their feet. Whatever one is lacking is the one I kick out and take them over. But i’ll keep this setup in mind. Be weird to give up more control, but you made good points on why.

[@blainestevens6701]

Which is funny, cause right when I typed this comment, you had a little drill for just that! 🤣💀

[@73caddydaddy93]

Whether people use this takedown or not, there's a lot of great subtle tips throughout this video. Icy Mike consistently has the best tips and techniques for a wide range of skill levels and applications

[@GreenLycan]

Its always good to learn more than one discipline when it comes to martial arts, street and sport are both disciplines in their own right and learning both gives you an edge over anyone that only focused on one.

[@SolutreanSpear]

Fantastic lesson as always. Thanks for the video!

[@tomd6103]

My high school wrestling coach used to make us train blindfolded (both guys). Great comment about needing eyes in the street but it's amazing how much you learn about balance, CG and position when you are relying on everything but your eyes.

[@Wiseman501]

Yo mike, you covered a lot of important fundamentals in this one, despite showing a modified technique, and I think it's a great demonstration and concept you're getting across. Takes a little experience to make it work for you, but the concept applies to several techniques, this being a great one to demo on.

[@JackCFairman]

The only problem I have with self defense only techniques like this is that they’re designed for a level 1 (completely untrained) attacker. To be fair a lot of people are but in todays world soo many people have done some wrestling or boxing or even mma so I personally like the slightly more controlling things, but I am I big fan of being able to disengage and get away if he has buddies

[@Mike-qz4by]

I fight you

[@freddy6081]

Defending yourself while also protecting your assailant is harder and more stressful, but you and your family will have a way happier life than if you suplex him on his head and you end up going to court or jail

[@qualthos1]

Very insightful. I think it very worthwhile because you won't always land a total control grapple in the chaos and working with the less control holds allows you practice less ideal situations but make them work anyway. The deliberate lack of commitment to prevent tunnel vision is a very solid point as well. Thank you!

[@enoughofyourkoicarp]

I think the reason it's worth training is because when you go for the "sport" version and it does't go the way you plan it's good to have something messier that still works in your back pocket. I don't have the experience to know if it's better or worse but it seems like another option that's low risk of failure with a high degree of effectiveness. Plan B always sucks but it's better to have one and not need it than to need one and not have it.

[@michaelmcnamara1839]

Sounds like this is icing on a combat sports cake. If you have the cake already, this gives you some extra dimensions for the "what-ifs" you have some (enough?) control but less commitment - you have options - you can dive in, bug out, look around etc. But if you don't have the cake to base it on, all you have is a bunch of runny sugar.

[@edwardanderson1053]

Fighting moves are like musical pieces they can have variations to suit the setting. That doesn't change the basics its just an improvisational change or practiced change to adapt to unusual situations. Its always good to train various variations on a well trained move,2-3 is top level.

[@WuzuquanSpain]

As someone who doesn’t coach combat sports or teach self-defence techniques, everything you say here makes perfect sense to me.

[@stango141]

Mike what I do when i grapple with the young bucks is just do a throw by. It's a very Greco move so most dont see it much, but you will keep far wrist control when you do it. You wont have to find the wrist again. Arm drags work but if they are fast you'll have to chase. Throw by gives the person no reaction time.

[@PaladinJackal]

Always enjoy seeing grappling for self defense stuff

[@prestow]

Great content. Clear explanation and technique. Thank you to you both.

[@IHateHandleNames]

I remember an Eddie Bravo seminar where he was teaching his rubber guard and techniques, and he said "this stuff all gets better as you get good at the traditional stuff, because you can flow back and forth between the two. You can do my fancy shit a guy defends and you hit him with a surprise kimura, but you've gotta have the basics as well". I feel like this applies here too, if you are good at the basics you can get fancy. Get real good at an arm drag and you can do arm drag variations. I would train it, personally. It looks cool, is fun to train, and would be a useful concept to learn. I think if you're a cop or constantly engaging in violence, yeah you should specialize in these things, but if not just do it every now and again so you have the motions down.

[@haraldreich729]

perfect. i will incorporate this in my training. thanks for sharing mike.

[@The_Zilli]

@hard2hurt - one issue with your self defense teachings and talks about "street fights". When people are fighting on the streets or being attacked, they are not wearing shorts and a tshirt but rather thick jackets (winter), leather jackets (fall/spring), or other material which restricts movement as well as offering a means to slip out of a grip. Nevermind the additional padding a jacket may give (depending on type of jacket). I would like to see more of that element incorporated into your teachings... Keep up the awesome work.

[@nzxtMonster]

You already said it: the key difference is grappling skills. Against an untrained person, thats viable IF you have wrestling in your arsenal. If you dont, the more agressive, violent, and athletic of you wins regardless of knowing that "self defense technique"

[@IRLand713]

I like training self-defense, BJJ, boxing and ECQC. I agree, against an ""untrained" opponent simple is typically better. The problem with that comes when you have an opponent who isn't completely untrained. One might find out before it's too late. So, I train planning that they are trained in something. The less complicated, the more repeatable, the better. But the more tools in the toolbox the better change you give yourself for survival. Thank you for addressing the need for the eyes sir.

[@IrocZIV]

I think any training that has you practicing control, is going to be helpful. Need to build that instinctual understanding of how it works, so when your adrenaline kicks in you don't have to rely on thinking about it.

[@lockdowndb4863]

5:19, this idea is correct. When you bring someone to the ground you want most of the momentum to be gone other wise they roll and in order to "secure" the takedown you roll with them. But as soon as they hit the mat and start rolling is unpredictable how they will roll and where there body will end up. If you watch college wrestling you will see how hard it is to secure a takedown when the opponent "rolls through" with the momentum...sometimes the attacker can end up pinned on their own back

[@richmann8230]

DAMN. You showed my secret favorite move. Lol. Old guy here and wrestler in the 60S. I'm little and this exact move is perfect for every occasion outside and inside the ring. I used this on huge guys and had endless options immediately following it. Including running... Ha ha ha. Or controlling or striking or choking out etc etc. But hey.... Don't show this to the big guys. Spoils my only advantage. Great channel. Thanks man.

[@3nertia]

Solid intel; thanks, Mike!

[@AlphaBeta-cf5wf]

Relative noob here, but this is my take on specific self defense techniques: 1) They only work against certain stuff - great, you learned to defend against a rear bear hug but that's useless against a front bear hug 2) You need to be able to pull them off flawlessly at a moments notice, and that takes hours of drilling a unique technique that only apples in one circumstance. Average person doesn't have time for that. 3) If you can't pull it off flawlessly, then you are left holding your own elbow while your opponent knows you are looking to cause trouble. Best bet is to practice punching really hard in the face. Works for lots of situitations, relatively easy to learn and if it doesn't work, just wind up and start again as quick as you can

[@pukanger]

Good stuff as always, Mike!

[@buddhaweatherby368]

My two cents man: I feel that sport training provides a fantastic base from which to safely build skills that can be applied under real pressure. From there it gets a lot more complex as you factor environment, multiple opponents, weapons, liability, etc. Without the repetitions and safe pressure of sport training as a foundation, things get pretty loose and fantastical very quickly. Some of my friends and I have been having this basic conversation for decades. I appreciate your approach Mike, rock on brother. (I am a former Emergency Services Team cop and Army Infantryman)

[@outmaster2348]

I'm glad another martial artist that actually knows how to fight understands this because when your on the street or in a dangerous area. You don't want to stay in one area when in a scenario like this. Friends could come, someone could have a weapon, getting straight to the ground is all dangerous because of the dirty ass ground(could fall on glass or needles) and your could get shot or curb stomped by someone else. This kinda technique in particular helps you have just enough control to make sure you aren't gonna get hurt, you can hurt them, but you can also escape or look for possible help or danger. WHEN IN EMERGENCY SURVIVAL FIGHT KEEP MOVING! Being locked into a single person, not being aware of your surroundings, or not being a difficult target to catch is something that I see combat sports athletes struggle with the most. But, I agree with Mike that a combat athlete will have a better chance than a "Self defense expert" because most self defense schools don't stress test with decent intensity and self defense has way more factors and variables that it can overwhelm someone who is not used to high stress situations. All in all Mike is right sorry for the rant

[@electronsmove]

I enjoy all you videos and the fact that you make an attempt to differentiate sport from non sport.

[@LoneWulf1992]

When it comes to "training for sport" vs "training for self defense," I like the hybrid idea of training for sports while EMPHASIZING the practical concepts and mindset that fits into the self defense world. Using your takedown as an example, sports training teaches us that this takedown is low-effort/risk, moderate to high reward in a competition as you nearly always end up in an advantageous position (unless you're going against a wrestler and he crushes you in the scramble). Part of the lesson should then transition into essentially what you did in this video, which was go over critical points of what you should be thinking and trying to do. 1) Simplicity of the takedown 2) ending position(s) that allows you to keep your opponent on the ground to either control or escape and 3) nonstop position to minimize your opponent's ability to harm you with weapons. One of my favorite BJJ instructors, Greg, were like this. He's a police lieutenant for a local police force and he would add to his lessons what he used on the streets. First the traditional BJJ sports explanation, and how the move transitions into this and this and here's 2 more variations. Then he'd go street mode, everything from "this works great when your attacker is bigger than you" to "this keeps your opponents arms tied up to where they can't reach for a knife or, if it's in their hand, they can't swing it at you easily." Self defense is absolutely a mentality, and disciplines like BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai, and Kickboxing capture components to that mentality. As a private security officer, I've spent most of my BJJ and Judo career building my grappling arsenal based on what I felt was practical for streets and what isn't. So my omoplata submission? Not all that great, but I am able to recognize and quickly hook a free arm with my legs to come up on top. My Drop Seoi Nage? Easily one of my best takedowns next to my O Soto Gari. Stay safe everyone!

[@redactedcanceledcensored6890]

I know where to go with this, keep them coming. Seems like the balance between going all grapple/no strike and "never go to the ground in a street fight".

[@indeswma4904]

Great video and Im relieved I understood what you were talking about.

[@1massboy]

The makes perfect sense against an average Schmuck that’s a little too big for his britches. The reason why wrestlers get so deep and and have so much control is because they’re actually going against someone that’s going to have a good base. And knows how to actually counteract the move. Like you said most people don’t have that skill set.

[@pabloqueima]

I don't claim to have "the" answer, but "one" answer we like to do is to use the "sport" things in practice and then understanding the differences for self defense. Skills and techniques are mechanical and they have to be drilled and reputed and tested, but self defense mostly comes down to tactical decisions, and those have to be studied and understood. What I mean is it's easier to get someone who wrestles regularly and then come and tell them "ok, wrestle but focus on his hands" than to get someone who doesn't wrestle and tell them "ok, practice this technique when you get a hold of his hands"

[@joshuaRR4720]

Best video you've made so far in my opinion

[@michaelbexarthomas652]

I like it. While standing it's harder for the opponent to tie your hands up compared to hands connected in a regular suplex. If you wanted you could shuck him off and strike or make distance with less hand commitment as well. Being able to choose not to go to the ground is a good thing when it comes to technique. 🤙🏼

[@ZovcDrafts]

I think we can peel back a little from what you're showcasing here. You can start a session by focusing on a particular grappling initiation and learning the "sport" version of the takedown or whatever progression. Once you've got those fundamentals down, you can start to interrogate how important each step is or how it might be modified for a self-defense situation. Like how you adjust the back take to be able to watch the hands (I like that idea), "do we still have enough control here?" Cool. After some of that work shopping, you can then try to load the mental stack by adding additional tasks that try to simulate self-defense decision making. Two partners are off on the side and will say "me" and hold up a number of fingers. You need to continue wrestling, look at the person and say "right two" or whichever hand and whatever number of fingers they are holding up. Things like that to force you to use your eyes and process what they're telling you. Level 5 (or whatever), the partners on the sides will randomly try to run up to the grappling exchange and you need to notice that and try to break away.

[@argoshikan]

More control equals more time required to get away too (for the good guy). Good stuff.

[@WreckRod]

It’s pretty straightforward: the rules dictate the strategy. Sport is just the result of rule set - different rule sets drive different strategies. If player 3 entering the game, hidden weapons, etc, are possibilities, then you do different things.

[@Tierynn86]

I agree with everything you said..... solid thinking.

[@samuraiartguy]

It straight up legit, it’s again “act tactically. THINK strategically.” In self-defense scenarios, you want to have the maximum options and ranges of response. When you said “he may have a weapon, or hepatitis.” I immediately thought “or three asshole friends.” You have to adapt in the moment, and being closely entangled on the ground does not always serve that goal. You want to be able to disengage rapidly as a fluid and randomized situation calls for.

[@EggShen905]

Yeah, this is actually what I'd call a basic "law of martial economy": you can get the same effect with less control but more expertise as you can with less expertise but more control. Similar axioms exist for opponent's skill and training vs. yours, for strength and speed, etc. It's all trade-offs. What's essential is fitness, situational awareness, and commitment to your goal.

[@DeeperThought11]

The pain in your face and voice when you said "And now I sound like them." Classic.

[@blue_tree_meadow]

In the past, while on duty I've found, underhook the arm on the same side, drive the upper body down and around whilst moving him to the floor face down. Then figure of 4 arm lock across his back. It's very effective.

[@TheVenerableMr.T]

Here's my take on your question if self-defense specific techniques are worth it. I say yes, but ONLY if you have a really good foundation. This is basically the 80/20 rule. Once you have the 80% down, then start moving to the specialized 20%. As a potentially poor example, when you're taught a jab in boxing, its hands up next to your face, extend your arm, and retract it back next to your face. However, a flicker jab is a specialized version of a jab. Your hand has to be lower, but because you have that foundation, you also know distance, movement, and other blocks. Flicker jabs work really well in my opinion, but only if you have those foundations solid. Same goes with what you were describing.

[@Coachpepper99]

I think it’s important to add these into curriculums. Sometimes when we focus too much on the sports sides of things that we get a removed from the reality of fighting. For example the way I grapple in MMA and self defense minded grappling is way different than when I train BJJ

[@uncircumcisedcircus]

The more important concept you touched on is the over controlling with the arms. If you tie up your arms your options also become much more limited, instead think more with controlling with your hips and legs. Khabib is one of the few people I have ever heard mention it. Also, I would add an important detail you were doing in the video which is STAYING ON YOUR FEET.

[@picasso3417]

Hello, i love watching your videos. As you said we should certainly train combat sports techniques because after all combat sports techniques are also effective on the street. I train krav maga at KMG (Krav Maga Global) and most of the techniques we use are from wrestling, bjj, boxing, etc. because they are extremely effective, but even so we still practice the self-defense aspect because there are several reasons for not using certain combat sports techniques in the street. I know that there are several Krav Maga McDojos and that is why krav is frowned upon, in all classes at my gym we train techniques with resistance. One of our mottos is that if there is a good attack there will be a good defense. Keep up the good work.

[@adamgriffithrn1]

This is a great point. If you are training “sport,” you are hitting tons of reps in reproducible skill. I recently chaperoned a youth group to a “strictly self defense” seminar. The intro was an eight strike combo, including three different punches and two different kicks. Two people on the room had any martial arts experience. As you said, any novice wrestler or boxer would be far more prepared to defend themselves.

[@kanucks9]

Honestly, the old "my dad taught me how to throw a punch" is more valuable. Literally just one punch.

[@acd-combatives]

You nailed it! Self-defense = defend/take-down/throw and run away/ getaway. Control is only necessary if you need to arrest/handcuff/restrain as in Taiho-Jutsu/ control tactics. BJJ is great for cops but not always the best for self-defense.

[@jacksonhamlett6490]

Love your content Mike. Wish so bad I could train under you.

[@DeputyChiefWhip]

Well, we practiced that, with resistance, it works against similar sized guys but not heavier guys. Heavier just stay solid and do not fall.

[@SethKBaldwin]

I feel this. I've trained sport BJJ for almost 10 years and I recently had an interaction with a 100 lbs woman who was completely tweaked out. She didn't have a weapon but I was worried she might bite or eye gouge me and have hepatitis and in that moment I felt my jiu-jitsu wasn't so helpful as I really didn't want to touch her and it was truly going to be used as a last resort. I ended up using my car alarm to make her back off so I'm glad I didn't need it.

[@lockdowndb4863]

3:25, as a wrestler I personally hate wrapping around the arms they can very easily leave your hold. What is I deal is wrapping around the torso/stomach simply for control. You don't have to lift them at all to bring them to the ground. There are other methods that revolve less around strength and "explosiveness"

[@flodeez1065]

After watching this Id like to see more on how one can be winning against their opponent but losing against the concrete. It cost me most of the flesh on my left shoulder to stop going for double legs when im off the mats!

[@smileydog5941]

You’ve had to use wrestling in a self defense situation?

[@captainspain9759]

I used to train Aikido, and now I do Muay Thai. In the Aikido dojo, we always used to hear "these moves are for combat. We don't spar because it's too dangerous, yadda yadda", but we weren't training any of the techniques as if we were gonna fight with them. At the Muay Thai gym, everything is about fighting because, if you want to, you'll eventually be in the ring. The conclusion I've reached is *if you can fight* you can make those wonky wtf techniques work because you have an inherent understanding of the intensity and timing required to pull them off. If you don't have that understanding and you skip combat sports training, you're setting yourself up to invest a lot of time into a complicated hobby that's more similar to LARPing than fighting. It doesn't matter how many self defense techniques I know if i can't punch someone in the face. Some people like to skip the fundamentals. They want martial arts to be like swinging through the drive thru when really it's a 1,000 mile journey that you walk.

[@corbyrobinson3640]

I would say that street is worth knowing about. The alternate takedowns, the reasoning behind not wanting to have a full clinch, etc. However I would say training time should be spent on what is most effective.

[@totazzacco3690]

Very good video and great with some thoughts on amount of control. I am a smaller guy and may need to let go when I cant handle stronger guys so may be I should let go and get away... Another thing is that your take down can be non escalating and letting the other guy calm down without getting attacked on the ground. May be you can end it without furter injuries for both? You did not say it (I think) but your message can be "I´ve put you down now dude,and I can keep on or let you up, behave!" Thanks for interresting video!

[@christamez734]

Not a dork, just smaller than you having spent 10 years in patrol. The Whole BJJ techniques started after I left patrol in 99. A few of us spent time working on stuff we thought would work in the street. All the PPCT stuff was mostly useless in a real fight. Civilians need to ground their opponent and leave before his buddies step in. The LEO needs to control once grounded and hopefully backup is coming soon. Good stuff you teach.

[@JorgeLausell]

TY! Isn't that the real point to more playful engagement? Then the incentive to faneses is enough to allow some skills building. More dancy choreographed moves to create opportunity to innovate.

[@callumdent]

The finish position of the take down reminds me heavily of the end position that I learnt from training Japanese Ju-jitsu. A majority of the throws end with the defender in a standing position above the attacks, usually with a grip on an arm ready to strike, joint lock or run away. I trained excessively yin self defence techniques and every single one of them is practical. But my training wasn't. I was not prepared for defending a series of strikes, or getting rushed and tackled, or realistically what happens is someone does grab you from behind in a rear choke. They dont stand there with a limp grip; they bury you into the ground. All the techniques I learned I believe are perfectly fine throws and takedowns but the method I was taught removed a lot of practicality from them and effective application. If I had learnt wrestling or kept up with Judo, my skills for effective fighting or takedowns would be miles better. Instead I learnt a lot of scenario work that ventured into the realms of fantasy. I really like that Mike is showing some of the principles that I learnt when I was younger applied in a realistic manner. My dad trained in martial arts and he said he liked that with something like what Mike is showing you can decide how much force you can apply, be it just getting them to the ground, restrain and joint lock or pummel the hell out of them.

[@kevinomahoney]

More takedowns, please. I’m a karateka trying out jiu jitsu, and takedowns are a challenge for me.

[@jbc175]

Somewhere in Eastern Europe (Russia I think), they did team MMA. The team that won wasn’t the best overall group, but the one that had any fighter win 10 seconds or more before the other team finished any fight. Once a single fighter was out, the person who had been fighting him ran over and started helping a teammate. That would last 5-15sec or so. Point being these fights demonstrate how difficult it is to fight 2 people and how control that is desirable in a 1 on 1 fight can immobilize you if a second person jumps in. They don’t even touch on problems you can have if someone pulls a weapon.

[@adamae.7246]

I think it worth it, not necessarly to pratice specific self-defence technics but you need at least to add vicious things to your sport moves for being more efficient in the street.

[@stephenbrock5836]

Mike, I think you made some very good comments. And others here have also made good comments about the differences between fighting sports, martial arts as sport, martial arts as self defense, and just self defense training (a lot of people out there doing "street fighting" training). Personally, I think if an individual wants a good rounded education then they will do both combat sport training as well as self defense training. You can go more in depth into either one you prefer, but knowing both will be the best option for people, imo. And I think you have made that comment in previous videos, to be "your best" you should learn a little of both sides. I agree that people that focus only on sport can forget that on the street someone might have a friend - or 6 waiting to back them up. And if all your focus goes on that one individual, then it doesn't matter if you are in perfect guard position when your opponent's friend hits you in the back of the head with a baseball bat. You have to be able to focus. That was one of the reasons my karate instructor always included 2, 3, and up to 5 person self defense training. Sometimes you just have to do enough and then shift focus or be able to quickly adapt to a new or different threat that is now imminent. And, in you scenario where you were behind his hip, you can react, but also look at and talk with the person. That can be a great time to deescalate a situation. Whether it be the drunk uncle at the BBQ someone else mentioned, or a person that just had a few too many at the bar. If you get some basic control, you have the option of talking the individual down or maybe his friends will intercede to get him under control or out of the bar. Your opponent's friends may help him, but they might just help you if he was the one getting out of line. Great video. Thanks.

[@finaldrive6224]

The rear naked choke is a simple and reliable technique to subdue an opponent in a street fight; apply pressure under the opponent’s nose with your hand (thumb & index) to lift their chin and expose their neck.

[@ajax31990]

I think it's a sometimes and context specific set of techniques in addition to fundamentals of combatives and combat sports. This sort of technique is developed and implemented once you have the capacity developed in combat sports or brawling. You know how to hurt someone, so now you can choose not to. I think the pure self defense training misses out on the fundamentals that allow this sort of complexity. As an example jujutsu/judo likes to do this by throwing/tripping/reaping with various grips where you are still standing while maintaining control of their weapon arm with a clear view of what's around you. You can then decide what level of force you want to use. You can break their arm or stomp on their head/ribs/knees/balls, you can let go and disengage, or you can transition to ground control as the situation dictates. However, none of this matters if you can't get to a position to knock them down or throw them. You need to be able to rumble before you can get into that sort of decision making.

[@MakCurrel]

I don't know about too much control. But I think I get what Mike is saying. It's about commitment. How much are we willing to invest in one move, with the risk of getting locked in the fight. Especially when there are outside factors we can't control.