Hardening and fitting a Rifle Shoppe Frizzen casting for an Indian made Charleville Musket

today we answer the question on whether or not rifle shot parts will work in Indian made muskets for military heritage.
here is Captain Ron's 18th century KZbin channel. go check it out. it is definitely worth the watch.
/ @captrons18thcentury
for those of you interested in the music, the artist name is Jessica Comeu I strongly suggest you go check out her channel. she has some very beautiful music on there.
• Jessica Comeau- Sir Pa...

[@Real11BangBang]

The one part in this video that I did manage to forget to record was where I drilled the pivot hole for the pivot screw in the new hammer toe. The instructions for this are as follows. Get the hammer/frizzon to where it fits well into the lock. Then get it sitting where you want it. Center Punch the center of the pivot screw hole into the hammer. Then drill a small hole first as a pilot hole. Keep moving up in size until you are just under the size you need and then finish your fit with a rat tailed file then polish out the hole.

[@thomaswilson517]

Do this b4 you heat treat!

[@Jkennethtaylor]

Thanks for taking us through the process. Inspired me to harden a frizzen that would not spark on a miquelet lock pistol. Worked great!

[@TheGunfighter45acp]

Nice work! I bet many a Patriot, Continental, and Militiamen had similar conversations with their Muskets back in the 1770's. 👍👍

[@Real11BangBang]

Yes, but it was probably the other way around. It was probably them saying goodbye to their old land pattern brown bess Muskets that they had since 1775 when getting issued the new Charleville's lol

[@TheGunfighter45acp]

@@Real11BangBang Haha, true!

[@georgegooding8207]

You might try hardening the old frizzen as a back up. Good job.

[@Real11BangBang]

That will be coming in a future video. My plan for it is to try a traditional field hardening technique which will involve wrapping the frizzen in rawhide packing it into a tin can sealing the can then throwing it in a wood fire until it is been glowing Red hot for about an hour and then immediately droping it in a bucket of ice cold water. I've seen several people do this and it seems to work quite well.

[@BLarsen1997]

Everything I hoped and dreamed it would be. Thanks for the run down on the hammer hardening. I'd tried before to find videos on the subject and most were either very technical or 12 years old. This was a great and practical way to show how easy it can be. Thanks!

[@Real11BangBang]

Why? Thank you. I'm glad that you enjoyed it. Stay tuned cause there's about to be a whole lot of flintlock gun smithing videos coming out here soon There would have been one today. However, after staying up until 2:00 in the morning for the last 2 days, I decided to give myself a one-day break.

[@northwoodstrapper8778]

Great job

[@Real11BangBang]

Thanks

[@louisianagray8618]

Has Hannibal would say I love it when a plan comes together

[@Real11BangBang]

Yep, and this sure did come together better than I was expecting

[@hazcat640]

Nicely done. I have never done this either but seeing it done I feel confident in doing this myself. Thanks for showing it.

[@Real11BangBang]

It took about 8 hours to get it completed but it really wasn't near as hard as I thought it would be.

[@patstrzeszewski3240]

I have absolutely no words!

[@chriskline4709]

I'm going to have to try this on my Pedersoli. Great video!

[@Real11BangBang]

If you got gouges cut in your frizzon, and little to no spark it may be the solution to your problem

[@chriskline4709]

That is my issue. Thanks

[@leoscheibelhut940]

Immensely helpful.

[@J_C_Firelocks]

Good job! I'm enjoying your channel.

[@Real11BangBang]

Glad you enjoy it! Thank you!

[@johnndavis7647]

Very nice. Thank you

[@Real11BangBang]

Thank you too!

[@geargnasher9822]

Good job! The thin case you put on it may wear through quickly but you can refresh it many times.

[@garydavis9887]

good job !

[@Real11BangBang]

Thanks!

[@gunsnwater2668]

A lot of work. So nice when it pays off like that.

[@Real11BangBang]

Oh yes! I still haven't shot it yet but I am super excited too!

[@richardcormier4561]

Howdy Guys awesome content I enjoy my muskets great videos

[@TheMusketMan98]

Very educational. I’ve always wanted to know how to do that.

[@firewaterforgeofarizona4304]

Skip to the 7 min mark if you only want to see the hardening process.

[@snappers_antique_firearms]

Good job Ethan

[@Real11BangBang]

Thank you, snapper

[@CaptRons18thcentury]

Good Job, and thanks for the plug…

[@Real11BangBang]

No problem

[@CaptRons18thcentury]

@@Real11BangBang well it is appreciated…

[@Real11BangBang]

Hey Captain Ron, this is Ethan. Just want to tell you thank you for tuning in and I really enjoy watching your channel. There's a lot I've been learning on there.

[@CaptRons18thcentury]

@@Real11BangBang well I was at a funeral in middle TN for an SAR member, got home about 8:00 pm and a friend had texted me that you mentioned me on the video… plus had a boost on subs, so it was greatly appreciated… oh and at the funeral we stood vigil at the casket through the viewing, then fired volleys as a salute at the cemetery… so it was an all day thing when you factor in the 2 hr drive to and from… Thanks Again…

[@noapologizes2018]

Excellent work. I have made knives and there is a Rockwell hardness chart on the internet that has the hardness and temper scale. Of coarse, I am heating steel in a forge, but your use of a torch to spot temper is also a method used on knife edges to harden. But there is a time factor for knives at a certain temperature to ease the brittleness out of the steel. Hopefully the hammer will serve you well.

[@Real11BangBang]

Thank you for the kind comment. I made my first knife last December based on a French trade knife and I will say that that was a lot more work than I was anticipating lol

[@SuperSneakySteve]

I wanna see History of the Handgun: Remington Revolvers!

[@Real11BangBang]

i would like to some day but its gona have to wait till i can afford the books and revolvers for that

[@JCP1152P]

which frizzen did you get from the Rifle Shoppe? Thanks again for another great video.

[@Real11BangBang]

It's for a 1763-66 French Infantry Musket (PT#702)

[@Schlachtschule]

Really interesting stuff, thank you, I had never seen that done in detail before. I don't know nearly as much about flintlocks as I do caplocks. How many shots can you get out of a flint before it must be replaced or re-knapped? Why did the instructions say not to dry fire, was it just so you don't wear down your flint and/or hammer face? I'd be very interested in seeing a video about flint management--how to insert them in the jaws of the cock correctly, how to knap them, how to tell when to replace them, etc.

[@Real11BangBang]

Thank you so much for the comment. So as far as Flint life goes it really depends on the lock and the geometry of the Cock to Hammer angle what I mean by this is some cock jaws are a little more angled straight out where the flint is pointing towards the tip of the barrel. And some are where the flint is actually angled toward the touch hole. The latter is going to give you a much longer life expectancy on your flints. I would say a good lock will give you about 40-50 rounds in a flint before it needs to be sharpened. As for the dry firing, I think the instructions were talking about not dry firing with the hammer open. This is very hard on the cock because the shoulder will be smashing into the lock plate without anything to slow it down. Ask for dry firing with the hammer down. I have seen people put wooden "flints" in their guns to save on the hammer face. But yes, I wouldn't suggest repeatedly dry firing. Every now and then is okay, but doing it alot will decrease the life expectancy of your hammer and flint edge.

[@galenhisler396]

If people can help duelist 1954 he has another great show and there trying to stop him he can explain it better on his show thank you

[@Real11BangBang]

Video to follow on that subject once I get off work

[@Real11BangBang]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZvZkmxofqyjZpI

[@dougdukes1039]

Thanks for showing. Two questions.... how long does it take you to get stuff from the Rifle Shoppe? and What music is that?

[@Real11BangBang]

As for the first question. As long as the parts are in stock, it takes about 2 weeks. However, for a parts kit that they have to make, it can take up to three years I've heard I'm getting ready to order a pattern 1776 kit from them. So yeah I will figure out about that as we go along. As to the second question, the name of the artist is Jessica Comeu she does dulcimer music here on KZbin and her music is really quite beautiful. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHalYmpoppJ4opI

[@waynerobinson2656]

Did you try to bring the original hammer back to life by hardening again?

[@Real11BangBang]

I am going to however the geometry on that is just a little bit off. The toe is a little bit forward causing more resistance on the feather spring, which does cause it to eat rocks a little faster than normal. This new one is going to be pretty good once I get a new feather spring put in.

[@Real11BangBang]

My plan with the old one is to try the old method of wrapping it in rawhide, putting it in a tin can and then throwing it in the fire. Then once it's been cherry red for about an hour drop the whole can into a bucket of ice cold water

[@jjjww975]

I just got my 1766 Charleville musket in from Access Heritage -- do I need to this on the hammer that came in ...? I'm about to order flints and leather and have my drill bit ordered already ... taking this step by step to complete each step correctly ... just wondering ... Thanks

[@Real11BangBang]

You shouldn't need to harden your Hammer right off the bat, it should be plenty hard enough. Obviously you'll want to check for spark but it took a few thousand rounds for the hammer on this French musket to get to where it wouldn't spark anymore

[@bigrickshaberdashery2759]

my bess is due for the same work, over 300 rounds and not much sparking going on

[@Real11BangBang]

From the beginning of this video to whenever I finally finished took about 8 hours. But really it's not as hard as you might think. And I believe you can get a new Hammer from the rifle shop for $24.99

[@notreallymyname3736]

Interesting! I always thought that frizzons were made from higher carbon steel rather than being case hardened. Just out of curiosity, were historical lock springs also produced from milder steels as well?

[@Real11BangBang]

These are a pretty high carbon steel according to the rifle shoppe "We use 4140 steel on all our lock parts except frizzens and springs which are 6150." But that brings us to the question of why case hardened when you could have just have a high carbon hardened frizzen through and through. And the reason for that is that is because of the price of good quality steel back in the 18th century and hard steel is brittle so yes, traditionally Frizzons or hammers as they were called back in the day generally were case hardened on the face and if they could not case harden it they would sometimes put on what they would call a "shoe" which was a hardened piece of steel usually out of a spring that was forged welded to the face of the hammer (or Frizzen.) I hope you found this helpful and thank you for watching.

[@mylife6453]

@@Real11BangBang 6150 makes good springs as it has 50 points of carbon or 1/2 of what's required to get to O1 steel, so case hardening or pack hardening is required to make them spark.

[@thomasbates9631]

Did you have the torch flame near a tank of fuel?

[@Real11BangBang]

No

[@jonmath1]

Rather than replacing the part could you have been able to retreat the original Hammer?

[@jonesysself-reliance3705]

I bought the Indian trade gun maybe 50 shots stop sparking

[@Real11BangBang]

Have you tried sharpening your flint?

[@fhorst41]

It was clever of you to color your arm Cherry Red so you could color match the frizzen.

[@Real11BangBang]

I use that as my color guide whenever the hammer matches my hand. That's whenever I know I've reached the right temperature lol

[@knallis.hjemmelading]

I am probably stupid to ask but couldn't you do that same thing with the old one?

[@Real11BangBang]

The old Frizzen is going to be used in a experiment in which I case harden it like they did back in the 18th century using rawhide

[@StevenMMan]

OK you got me a laughing.😅 iffin you was near we'd break out the yellow apron, strap on our cresent moon and complete a intire abitt and costelo baudville skit. Mountain man

[@Real11BangBang]

Oh yeah buddy that would be something else. Wouldn't it? I can see it now. "You have all heard of Martin and Lewis Abbott and Costello Jack Benny George Burns well today we present the mountain man and the longhunter!" Instead of canes up on the vaudeville stage you can have Bertha and I can have Ol' Char that would make quite the show wouldn't it?

[@StevenMMan]

@@Real11BangBang damn sight it would

[@StevenMMan]

@11BangBang old man vision of what would Ashley do record. A bit winded but will review in a bit. Upload soon to follow.

[@Real11BangBang]

​@@StevenMMan I can't wait! I'm actually pretty excited about the what would Ashley do project?

[@StevenMMan]

@@Real11BangBang I did miss one minor detail i think snafu may be working on. A hollow steel core sleeved inside a brass layer, bring out the best of both char and Bertha with a durable lighter weight ramrod

[@devmeistersuperprecision4155]

Awesome. Now when you case a part. Caseing is a process where you allow carbon to migrate into the part. So a small layer of the frizzen face has more carbon than the main piece. Of course you also need to heat every thing up to where it’s no longer magnetic. Then the interstitial carbon transitions into carbide. So the outer shell is very hard and the interior is soft. You get both hardness and ductility which is needed cuz the cock spends its life whacking the face. Of course you need softer or more ductile metal where it pivots. That is why you do the purple color thing. Now, here is where I am confused. The hard face improves the life of the frizzen. But would it work in the soft? Does the surface need to hard just to generate sparks? One of my favorite steels for vintage gun parts is 8620. It was formulated for case hardening. I have sand cast it and investment cast it. Best of all, it gets you the beautiful brown and blue streaking you see on many older western guns. This is done by bone casing. Question is …. Will cased 8620 produce good spark performance?

[@Real11BangBang]

I believe case hardened 8620 would work excellent for a good hammer. I have messed around with trying to spark a lock that hadn't been hardened yet just to see what would happen and the results were pretty pathetic. I couldn't hardly get a single spark off of the hammer

[@cetate93]

Do you think it would work with yellow bottle Map Gas?

[@Real11BangBang]

I believe if you look on the rifle shops website they tell you what is ideal for certain parts and I do believe that they did mention MAP gas but I can't remember if it was for hardening Frizzons

[@Real11BangBang]

therifleshoppe.com/general_product_information.htm Here's the rifle shops recommendations

[@SeaDog337]

If my math checks out, you've spent a minimum of 14.5 hours loading this musket. This is a pointless fact which has no bearing on anything, but nonetheless...

[@davidwoodvine3491]

Great video👍 .i have an old middle eastern blunderbuss , the sear tip & tumbler are a little too soft , i have tried quenching in oil with little effect , would case hardening do the trick ?. It is i think a very early french style flint lock , with the cock stop on the outside of the lock plate, its not a dog lock as it has an internal half cock safety , the rear of the cock has a quadrant cut out i assume to stop the cock at full cock & after firing , a small rectangular hole in the lock corresponds with the cut out in the cock , i think there would have been a stop block pressed into the hole at some time . I cannot find any reference to this type of lock anywhere , any info would be much appreciated .

[@Real11BangBang]

Usually case hardening with the proper material such as true spark or cherry. Red works quite well without being able to see the lock. I couldn't tell you. However, I've got several books on French muskets so if you want to go ahead and email me some pictures of this lock that would be fine. My email is in the about information on our KZbin channel

[@davidwoodvine3491]

Thank you for your reply, i will send you email pics as soon as i get back to base . Keep up the good work 👍

[@Saltpetere]

I don't understand why the tempering part of this is important. I have seen a couple of videos on this and everyone does it - but I don't understand what you get from doing it

[@Real11BangBang]

tempering is what gives you the hardness that is needed

[@jakeawesome_usa6370]

Where would I get a already hardened FRIZZEN for a Short Land Pattern Brown Bess, musket? It’s second model

[@Real11BangBang]

if it is an india made musket or an original you basically have to do it yourself or take it to a shop

[@jakeawesome_usa6370]

I got mine from veteran arms

[@jakeawesome_usa6370]

We’re do i take it to

[@jakeawesome_usa6370]

I want a backup one

[@Real11BangBang]

In that case, do like we did here order one from the rifle shop you will still have to fit and harden it as these are kind of hand made no one makes an exact fit

[@cleophusA]

What's y'alls mailing address in case we want to send you something?

[@Real11BangBang]

we have an email address in the "about" section of the channel

[@Real11BangBang]

Go ahead and shoot me an email and I will let you know

[@nicktant1756]

i'm sure you meant hardening your Frizzen, not hammer.

[@Real11BangBang]

Nope. Hammer. Frizzen is not the correct term until the guns made in 19th century

[@jlyle51]

Frizzon =hammer. 😂

[@rodsvintagesxschannel.3095]

Love the videos, sent a pm to your fb page .msg anytime. Id love to chat and even do A collaborative live between my channel and yours id love to talk black powder and Muzzleloaders. Enjoy the content.

[@Real11BangBang]

We do have an opening for a live chat on the 29th of April with a couple of other KZbin channels. So if you would like to join us, we would be more than happy to have you aboard siged Ethan

[@rodsvintagesxschannel.3095]

@@Real11BangBang keep me posted sounds gd